General Discussion

Response to LanternWaste (Reply #177)

Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.

Edit history

Cannot view edit history for self-deleted messages.

244 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

I "get" that you don't "get" the idea underlying the First Amendment [View all] cthulu2016 Dec 2013 OP

Exactly so tkmorris Dec 2013 #1

Nice. K&R. EOTE Dec 2013 #2

what about Citizens United? nt geek tragedy Dec 2013 #3

Citizens United was narrowly decided by a far right wing supreme court majority. Enthusiast Dec 2013 #121

What about libel? Yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded theater? randome Dec 2013 #4

This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Dec 2013 #5

Where did the OP say it was absolute? X_Digger Dec 2013 #7

"Unfettered, even dangerously unfettered speech and expression..." randome Dec 2013 #8

I don't read it that way, and the OP's endorsement of our historical level of freedom of expression- X_Digger Dec 2013 #9

This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Dec 2013 #10

You'll have to ask the OP, but I see quite a few who endorse.. X_Digger Dec 2013 #17

and some people hfojvt Dec 2013 #26

Money is not speech. Corporations are not people. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #65

No, but money can BUY speech Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #217

Fortunately, that is not the current (or future) state of the law. onenote Dec 2013 #234

How about whistleblowers? lark Dec 2013 #53

I am for whistle blowers, no matter who they embarrass. X_Digger Dec 2013 #55

Me too. JDPriestly Dec 2013 #79

I'm with you on that! lark Dec 2013 #108

Me too..........nt Enthusiast Dec 2013 #122

I think the disagreement is what constitutes a whistleblower. randome Dec 2013 #61

Agreed, AND the disagreement is about whether a country can specify a method for whistleblowing. stevenleser Dec 2013 #73

You're right, Snowden had his 'safe haven' with the whistleblowing laws already on the books. randome Dec 2013 #107

"He may be disappointed that nothing much has come of his 'revelations'." greiner3 Dec 2013 #200

you're talking to a cog, there nt grasswire Dec 2013 #204

It's very simple, randome. JDPriestly Dec 2013 #81

The only thing Snowden 'warned' us about was the metadata collection. randome Dec 2013 #103

As the OP points out, Tea Baggers are hopeless. JDPriestly Dec 2013 #156

+1 a whole bunch.......nt Enthusiast Dec 2013 #123

Why? lark Dec 2013 #104

If you have no definition of what constitutes a whistleblower... randome Dec 2013 #110

Interesting that you never asked for a definition of whistleblower. lark Dec 2013 #220

Free speech is great. Who is there to argue that? randome Dec 2013 #16

If you haven't seen those wishing to put their thumb on the scales of the 'balance'.. X_Digger Dec 2013 #19

our historical level of freedom of expression hfojvt Dec 2013 #28

Yet cooler heads prevailed. Fancy that. X_Digger Dec 2013 #34

actually it does hfojvt Dec 2013 #40

And who (other than Justice Black, apparently) has endorsed that position? X_Digger Dec 2013 #42

Historically, we permitted slavery and racial discrimination. We aren't stuck in history. JDPriestly Dec 2013 #86

I might find myself where? hfojvt Dec 2013 #105

R.A.V. a Scalia decision JDPriestly Dec 2013 #162

Because "even dangerously unfettered" is ambiguous wording to you? WinkyDink Dec 2013 #52

Lots of dangerously unfettered speech is protected by the first amendment. Vattel Dec 2013 #106

I think the OP used the term carelessly. Orsino Dec 2013 #11

It's always a balancing act, sure. randome Dec 2013 #18

I strongly disagree: JDPriestly Dec 2013 #87

Content of speech is regulated, too. n/t Orsino Dec 2013 #88

Not of political or religious speech. JDPriestly Dec 2013 #101

Even those. Orsino Dec 2013 #222

Yes and no. Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #218

Yes. n/t Orsino Dec 2013 #221

You can also be liable for libel or slander. JDPriestly Dec 2013 #77

Outlawing hate speech, zero tolerance laws, minimum sentencing 'guidelines'. randome Dec 2013 #95

In my view, yes. JDPriestly Dec 2013 #97

There are laws to cover the damage the exercising go your freedom causes. zeemike Dec 2013 #25

Anyone has the freedom to break any law they want, even murder. randome Dec 2013 #35

How in the world are you defining "freedom"? JDPriestly Dec 2013 #89

I was pointing out the corollary to zeemike's post. randome Dec 2013 #94

Yes. But, notably, he price for breaking many laws is losing your freedom. JDPriestly Dec 2013 #99

No that is not what I said. zeemike Dec 2013 #111

But the 'harm' in a country of 300 million people cannot be reliably determined... randome Dec 2013 #112

That is sure some negative attitude you have there. zeemike Dec 2013 #118

No the purpose of the law is to prevent harm to others. zeemike Dec 2013 #109

Yelling fire in a theatre is usually not merely legal but praiseworthy. Donald Ian Rankin Dec 2013 #74

Well said LittleBlue Dec 2013 #6

Unfettered speech is great MyNameGoesHere Dec 2013 #12

I don't get it Progressive dog Dec 2013 #13

I do not believe that the government should censor hate speech unless it is associated with a crime. JDPriestly Dec 2013 #93

I still don't get why not censored hate speech is only thing the OP Progressive dog Dec 2013 #125

What do you think makes America special? JDPriestly Dec 2013 #155

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #203

You are confused about what Progressive dog Dec 2013 #207

k&r Puzzledtraveller Dec 2013 #14

It's an area where we are "DIFFERENT" than the bulk of the rest of the world jberryhill Dec 2013 #15

But we put up with it because we recognize that deciding what speech is OK and what is not JDPriestly Dec 2013 #96

I fully understand our position on this jberryhill Dec 2013 #113

"just lousy people" hfojvt Dec 2013 #20

I think what many people don't understand is that while we are free to say or write what we wish to LanternWaste Dec 2013 #21

That confusion does pop up surprisingly often. Dr. Strange Dec 2013 #71

There is also the point that while you are free to say essentially anything you want Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #219

I'm all for the 1st Amendment, but... Yavin4 Dec 2013 #22

Mr. Spock is a cherished fictional character? RC Dec 2013 #29

You mean you missed that episode of Star Trek entitled "Spork"? nt Javaman Dec 2013 #38

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #187

I "get" that you don't "get" that shaming consumers of sexualized violence doesn't mean banning redqueen Dec 2013 #23

Slut shaming is never OK. Imputing what you consider a negative sexual practice to someone is ugly stevenleser Dec 2013 #36

So, because you failed to get me PPR'd for saying that people post MRA talking points here, redqueen Dec 2013 #37

You said "Your" meaning the OP's "precious, precious rape porn". OP has never said they consume that stevenleser Dec 2013 #39

Yeah. redqueen Dec 2013 #43

I'm very familiar with the way it works. stevenleser Dec 2013 #48

well the OP IS apparently concerned that hfojvt Dec 2013 #49

No, sorry, not even close. If someone does not indicate they have a particular sexual practice and stevenleser Dec 2013 #50

in this case hfojvt Dec 2013 #62

No, again, that's not the way it works. You clearly havent thought this through. stevenleser Dec 2013 #64

+1000. That's exactly how I see it too, and it's dishonest, insulting and polly7 Dec 2013 #70

"uncomfortably close" hfojvt Dec 2013 #82

Close enough. You are defending an ad-hominem, slut-shaming accusation based on no evidence stevenleser Dec 2013 #90

"I truly feel sorry for you" hfojvt Dec 2013 #100

This is how I see it as well Tumbulu Dec 2013 #189

+1000 Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #84

In a thread about the First Amendment BainsBane Dec 2013 #128

I am ready to leave DU over this outrageous Tumbulu Dec 2013 #191

Link? polly7 Dec 2013 #66

Not only didn't the OP ever say they consumed rape porn, they've not said they consume ANY porn stevenleser Dec 2013 #75

Oh, it's gone much lower, unfortunately. polly7 Dec 2013 #76

precious, precious rape porn, huh? DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #135

She's an angry person? BainsBane Dec 2013 #139

Looks that way, yes. DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #160

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2013 #175

Well said Tumbulu Dec 2013 #190

To many our free speech Betsy Ross Dec 2013 #24

Actually, there are many forms of unprotected speech. SEE: JaneyVee Dec 2013 #27

Thanks for the link NewJeffCT Dec 2013 #68

+1 Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #115

The first amendment of today is not the same in most of our history. former9thward Dec 2013 #30

+1 NewJeffCT Dec 2013 #67

'The Supreme Court has addressed pornography more often than almost any other issue of elleng Dec 2013 #31

It says "Congress shall make no law....." AlbertCat Dec 2013 #32

Let's not forget, between the cries of "Liberty!" that this argument is about rape porn. Squinch Dec 2013 #33

That is some old-school "not getting." Bravo. cthulu2016 Dec 2013 #41

I imagine that for many people, that same principle is simply a mask to hide a specific point. LanternWaste Dec 2013 #44

Yes. I certainly do think this is about some genre of porn. Namely rape porn. Squinch Dec 2013 #144

The OP does point out that the 1st Amendment covers Holocaust denial muriel_volestrangler Dec 2013 #46

Ignorance and/or deliberate lying is protected. WinkyDink Dec 2013 #54

But the crucial difference is that Holocaust denial does not subject more people to the Holocaust. Squinch Dec 2013 #143

There is no evidence of causation for either and people concerned about it for both. stevenleser Dec 2013 #147

The rape porn genre includes depictions of actual rapes that are sold for entertainment. Squinch Dec 2013 #148

Possibly. I'm willing to take your word for it on that. But the discussion was causation. stevenleser Dec 2013 #151

The rape porn genre includes depictions of actual rapes being sold for entertainment. nt. Squinch Dec 2013 #152

I read it the first time and that still has no bearing on our conversation. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #153

Filming actual rapes doesn't cause harm? Interesting position. Squinch Dec 2013 #157

Nice try at moving the goalposts. No. I accept the underhanded tactic as your surrender in this stevenleser Dec 2013 #163

Have fun with that. Squinch Dec 2013 #170

It is illegal to sell that. Dr Hobbitstein Dec 2013 #209

I can't decide if your post is funny or sad. Squinch Dec 2013 #229

Here we go again with this tedious "argument". MadrasT Dec 2013 #45

+1 jberryhill Dec 2013 #57

Don't agree with the first two paragraphs but the last two are an important reminder stevenleser Dec 2013 #80

well said. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #116

Very good point! Tumbulu Dec 2013 #192

I don't see a lot of "unfettered speech and expression" FairWinds Dec 2013 #47

"even dangerously unfettered speech and expression".... Not exactly. We outlawed incitement to WinkyDink Dec 2013 #51

This may come as a shock, but the 1A protects speech from government BainsBane Dec 2013 #56

Is this another fucking porn thread? ismnotwasm Dec 2013 #58

I know, right? polly7 Dec 2013 #102

That's right - people should have freedom of speech to say things that I agree with el_bryanto Dec 2013 #59

Well said Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 2013 #60

Except that speech is no where near free in the United States. redgreenandblue Dec 2013 #63

This isn't about free speech BainsBane Dec 2013 #69

K&R D23MIURG23 Dec 2013 #72

Righteous rant - TBF Dec 2013 #78

Only it's not about the First Amendment BainsBane Dec 2013 #140

Ah, more going on - TBF Dec 2013 #141

I see a lot of not getting it in this thread, and that makes me sad. JVS Dec 2013 #83

No one thinks the First Amendment is absolute. DirkGently Dec 2013 #85

This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Dec 2013 #91

Thank you ismnotwasm Dec 2013 #92

Perhaps, but political speech and consensual intimate behavior by adults in private are intrinsic stevenleser Dec 2013 #98

So you are the arbiter of what the "other side" really means? DirkGently Dec 2013 #129

Are any of us on DU the arbiter of anything? What kind of ridiculous argument is that? stevenleser Dec 2013 #130

You understand I was mocking your argument, right? DirkGently Dec 2013 #132

I know you were doing everything except coming up with anything substantive and non-fallacious stevenleser Dec 2013 #133

Substance like correcting your two misstatements of the law? DirkGently Dec 2013 #136

Is that what you think you posted after your non-sequitur subject and straw man opening? stevenleser Dec 2013 #137

Well yes, you got the law wrong both times. What else? DirkGently Dec 2013 #138

LOL, no I didn't and no you didn't. That would require a link to case law, which you don't have. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #146

Sheesh. You actually need a link to Times v. Sullivan? DirkGently Dec 2013 #164

You've never read that case have you? It completely proves my point. Its nearly impossible for stevenleser Dec 2013 #198

That wasn't your point, and that's not what it says. DirkGently Dec 2013 #199

No, you do not get it. You flatter yourself that you do, but do not cthulu2016 Dec 2013 #114

Do you have a substantive response? DirkGently Dec 2013 #119

Can we ban "pretend" child porn, where the actor seems to be underaged, but is claimed not be?" redqueen Dec 2013 #127

Maybe that's what's already illegal. DirkGently Dec 2013 #134

You can't seriously mean there are colors beyond black and white - Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #210

Sorry cthulu2016 Dec 2013 #172

I don't love the title of my post. DirkGently Dec 2013 #173

Bravo!! Deserves it's own OP. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #117

Right on!..........nt Enthusiast Dec 2013 #120

Lenny Bruce would approve of this message. Rex Dec 2013 #124

The First Amendment is about more than freedom of speech. Agnosticsherbet Dec 2013 #126

If speech is so "unfettered" and free . . FairWinds Dec 2013 #131

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #142

"Yet some people want to throw a giant entitled tantrum" jberryhill Dec 2013 #145

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #158

I used to describe people who disagreed with my opinions as "throwing entitled tantrums" also. LanternWaste Dec 2013 #149

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #159

I'd guess I would have rationalized and deflected too when called on it. LanternWaste Dec 2013 #176

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #179

And good luck with your irrational hysteria LanternWaste Dec 2013 #182

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #184

"Naked boobie pics" chervilant Dec 2013 #206

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #215

Your defensive and obfuscating chervilant Dec 2013 #216

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #230

"Actually, I don't care..." chervilant Dec 2013 #236

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #240

Poor wee mannie... chervilant Dec 2013 #241

Not gonna answer the question, huh? Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #243

"How wonderful to be able to enjoy graphic depictions of consensual, erotic sex. sibelian Dec 2013 #225

Oh, goodie, chervilant Dec 2013 #235

Where are these "porn yowlers?" DirkGently Dec 2013 #154

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #161

"Apes DO read philosophy, Otto. DirkGently Dec 2013 #166

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #169

You dismissed my comment without substance. DirkGently Dec 2013 #174

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #181

I'll happily debate the law if you want. DirkGently Dec 2013 #201

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #202

I have that reflexive response re: freedom of expression too. DirkGently Dec 2013 #214

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #233

It protects your screeching and hysterical temper tantrums too. LanternWaste Dec 2013 #177

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #180

No need to imagine hysteria when one see it. LanternWaste Dec 2013 #183

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #185

Thank you so much Tumbulu Dec 2013 #195

Most excellent post! chervilant Dec 2013 #205

I think that's what I'm reacting to. DirkGently Dec 2013 #211

This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Dec 2013 #242

Well said. Anyone who says "freedumz" to mock political rights is a spoiled brat LittleBlue Dec 2013 #167

I don't take anyone that calls quotation marks "scare quotes" at all seriously. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #224

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #231

Not a fan of your writing style Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #150

How many people here at DU have said they want to ban porn? gollygee Dec 2013 #165

Right. It's the gun lobby response all over again. DirkGently Dec 2013 #171

Exactly the same- good point Tumbulu Dec 2013 #193

K&R, completely agree! It is the one thing Americans can still take pride in quinnox Dec 2013 #168

We can't take pride in the thirteenth amendment? LanternWaste Dec 2013 #178

It's #1 for a reason. Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #186

Jefferson was a visiconary Harmony Blue Dec 2013 #188

I'm not sure that being *proud* of the the 13th Amendment makes sense cthulu2016 Dec 2013 #212

The first amendment means little without ecoomic/social freedom. Only the powerful get a voice then. freshwest Dec 2013 #194

Well said Tumbulu Dec 2013 #196

And so exercising my so precious right Tumbulu Dec 2013 #197

Your theory that women are incapable of consent is horrible cthulu2016 Dec 2013 #213

? Well what a novel idea, worker safety and human dignity Tumbulu Dec 2013 #238

"repeating idiotic ideas that anyone enjoys being beat up" sibelian Dec 2013 #228

Oh good grief Tumbulu Dec 2013 #237

All true, but with the consequence excluded alcibiades_mystery Dec 2013 #208

It's not a speech issue Prism Dec 2013 #223

Yes, the fear of the full extent of the human erotic imagination's spectrum is frightening. sibelian Dec 2013 #226

You honestly believe that those acting Tumbulu Dec 2013 #239

Honestly, I think some of it has to do with DU's peculiar demographics. Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #232

Hundredth rec, checking in! +1 Poll_Blind Dec 2013 #227

I wish I had 10 dollars for every time someone argued against consenting adult behavior using Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #244