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bigtree

(85,996 posts)
Fri Mar 22, 2024, 09:07 PM Mar 22

Let's be clear. Tribe and Weissman are full of shit about the Trump investigations [View all]

Laurence Tribe 🇺🇦 ⚖️@tribelaw
As @AWeissmann_ argued from the start, AG Garland’s bottom-up, follow-the-money approach was wrong-headed and ill-suited to the kind of election crime obviously at issue here. We’re all paying the price.


Wow. Can you think of anything more absurd than spending years castigating Trump for his autocratic politicization of justice, and then complaining because your own party's president's DOJ didn't do the exact same?

I mean, that's what the 'Garland late' canard has devolved into. Just a complaint that the DOJ prosecutions of Trump didn't commence in time to convict him before the election, as if that, by itself, would relieve Democrats of organizing that defeat at the ballot box; or as if merely convicting or charging Trump would bar him from running or assuming office if elected.

Have we really come to the point where a convicted rapist and fraudster who openly associates with Russians and white supremacists while leveling attacks against Americans and the country is some surmountable obstacle for the party that we need to use our admin's Justice Dept. to advantage us in the election?

That's what this sophistry against Merrick Garland is centered on. I hesitate to say that's what it's all about because it's so false and ridiculously contradictory that it just seems like pure trolling.

The premise behind all of the over-the-top vitriol is that the AG has lost us the election, despite his office and appointments filling out the stated aims of the Jan. 6 committee investigation (self-declared incomplete by the chairman) to the letter, and beyond.

The NYT sham of an article (and Tribe) complains about DOJ's 'bottom-up investigation,' as if they were in some sort of bubble of indifference about the Trump WH.

Schiff should be thanking DOJ for doing what Congress could only talk about. The Jan. 6 panel drew a straight line from Trump to the OKs and PBs, and Garland's DOJ made that case in court with convictions up to sedition and obstructing the vote, several cooperating with the DOJ.

But was the Jan 6. panel Schiff sat on wrong in their own 'bottom-up approach? Is that what Tribe thinks? Weissmann?

Of course, fucking not. They're too busy feathering their sophistry about DOJ. But, lookee here:

Jan. 6 Panel Drew A Straight Line From Trump To The Proud Boys And Oath Keepers

The committee made clear that it viewed the Trumpian conspiracy to overturn the election as a months-long plot, and it applied the same logic to Trump’s relationship to these right-wing extremist groups, featuring testimony from a member of the Proud Boys saying Trump’s presidential debate command to them to “stand back and stand by” — all the way back in September 2020 — boosted membership “exponentially.”

They traced the relationship from there, including testimony from multiple Proud Boys saying they were in D.C. on Jan. 6 because Trump asked them to be there. The panel presented extensive footage of the groups on the day itself, labeling the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers as such when they appeared on camera. And Vice Chair Liz Cheney (R-WY) said the Proud Boys “ultimately led the invasion of the Capitol, and the violence on that day.”


I mean, wtf does Tribe say about the Jan. 6 committee's efforts and direction, since Schiff, Weissmann, and others criticizing Garland want to pretend the toothless, incomplete congressional hearings that DELAYED actual PB and OK trials were superior and ultimately influential to DOJ?

NPR: Jan. 6 panel shows evidence of coordination between far-right groups and Trump allies

The House select committee investigating the attack on the U.S. Capitol tried to make the case Tuesday that far-right groups and the effort to overturn the 2020 presidential election are inextricably linked, detailing the mobilization of extremist groups after then-President Trump sent a tweet on Dec. 19, 2020, calling for supporters to protest in D.C. on Jan. 6.
https://www.npr.org/2022/07/12/1111132464/jan-6-hearing-recap-oath-keepers-proud-boys


And that's all we hear from Garland critics; that Congress was ahead of DOJ. But Congress DELAYED actual trials of PBs and OKs who the committee identified as an essential link to the Trump WH by holding back witness testimony needed to reconcile with DOJ evidence and demanded in discovery by both defendants in both trials until late that year.

Let's get this straight. Garland was following the money trail from the insurrectionist riot groups long before the committee was a sparkle in the chairman's eye:

___
Thomas Windom, a little-known federal prosecutor who was representing the Special Counsel position today on the Trump protective order, is the man Deputy AG Lisa Monaco tasked in Fall 2021 to oversee key elements of the Justice Department’s investigation into efforts to overturn the 2020 election results - one of the first indications that Trump and his associates were under DOJ investigation.

NYT:

"It (was) Mr. Windom, working under the close supervision of Garland’s top aides, who is executing the department’s time-tested, if slow-moving, strategy of working from the periphery of the events inward..."

"He ha(d) been leading investigators who have been methodically seeking information about the roles played by some of Mr. Trump’s top advisers, including Rudolph W. Giuliani, Jenna Ellis and John Eastman, with a mandate to go as high up the chain of command as evidence warrants."

"Mr. Windom’s second objective — mirroring one focus of the Jan. 6 committee — is a widening investigation into the group of lawyers close to Mr. Trump who helped to devise and promote the plan to create alternate slates of electors."


The other investigative team, looking at efforts to block the transfer of power from Trump to President Joe Biden after the 2020 election, had even a year ago been given the greenlight by the Justice Department to take a case all the way up to Trump, if the evidence leads them there, according to the sources. Work that’s been led by the DC US Attorney’s Office into political circles around Trump related to January 6 now will move under the special counsel.

Partly led by former Maryland-based federal prosecutor Thomas Windom, DOJ has added prosecutors to the January 6 team from all over the department in recent months. Windom and the rest are also expected to move over to the special counsel’s office. Some, like Mary Dohrmann, a prosecutor who’s worked on several other Capitol riot cases already, appear to be reorienting, according to court records of open Capitol riot cases.   

Another top prosecutor, JP Cooney, the former head of public corruption in the DC US Attorney’s Office, is overseeing a significant financial probe that Smith will take on. The probe includes examining the possible misuse of political contributions, according to some of the sources. The DC US Attorney’s Office, before the special counsel’s arrival, had examined potential financial crimes related to the January 6 riot, including possible money laundering and the support of rioters’ hotel stays and bus trips to Washington ahead of January 6.

In recent months, however, the financial investigation has sought information about Trump’s post-election Save America PAC and other funding of people who assisted Trump, according to subpoenas viewed by CNN. The financial investigation picked up steam as DOJ investigators enlisted cooperators months after the 2021 riot, one of the sources said.

In interviews with people in Trump’s orbit over the past several months, some of the DOJ focus has been on the timeline leading up to January 6 and Trump’s involvement and knowledge of potential events that day, according to a source familiar with the questioning.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/11/politics/jack-smith-special-counsel-high-profile-moves-trump-criminal-investigations/index.html

...here we can see Garland's team, already far ahead of Mueller's entire investigation, and Jack Smith taking on over 20 prosecutors in a 'fast moving investigation.'

___ Jack Smith takes over a staff that’s already nearly twice the size of Robert Mueller’s team of lawyers who worked on the Russia probe.  A team of 20 prosecutors investigating January 6 and the effort to overturn the 2020 election are in the process of moving to work under Smith, according to multiple people familiar with the team.

Smith will also take on national security investigators already working the probe into the potential mishandling of federal records taken to Mar-a-Lago after Trump left the White House.

Together, the twin investigations have already established more evidence than what Mueller started with, including from a year-long financial probe that’s largely flown under the radar.

“Mueller was starting virtually from scratch, whereas Jack Smith is seemingly integrating on the fly into an active, fast-moving investigation,” said Elie Honig, a former federal prosecutor and senior CNN legal analyst.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/11/politics/jack-smith-special-counsel-high-profile-moves-trump-criminal-investigations/index.html


...Tribe and Weissmann are just beating up DOJ for not only pursuing the Trump WH's financial trails, but also filling out what Congress had made their entire fuss about.

You can't credibly elevate the non-enforcing Jan 6 committee over DOJ, above the people who actually did the work of gathering evidence that can stand the rigors of appeals and challenges.

It's just galling to hear these second-guessing complaints about DOJ's 'bottom up' approach at the same time they're giving props to the Jan. 6 committee who actually directed them to the riot leaders.

At least they should get their stories straight about the prosecution they're criticizing, which, other than the contradictory imaginings that make up most of the claims against them, looks an awful lot like the imaginary one they've been lauding.
122 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Unfortunately, this OP starts off with a false premise when it says... Think. Again. Mar 22 #1
lol bigtree Mar 22 #4
Perhaps I missed some nuance, but it is exactly what you said... Think. Again. Mar 22 #8
not arguing your parsing bigtree Mar 22 #9
Don't think that was the intention. cachukis Mar 22 #6
This is one valid point - eom FHRRK Mar 22 #25
Good call. Goodheart Mar 22 #30
You are the one spreading falsehoods Fiendish Thingy Mar 22 #42
Say wut?... Think. Again. Mar 23 #72
The OP never mentioned anything about "The Democratic Party's DOJ" Fiendish Thingy Mar 23 #94
to be fair to the poster bigtree Mar 23 #95
If we cannot exist within a shared reality, how can we hope to defeat fascism? Fiendish Thingy Mar 23 #96
Wow, you're really bad at this. Think. Again. Mar 23 #97
Substance free reply. Fiendish Thingy Mar 23 #99
regardless of when the DOJ pursued Trump, agingdem Mar 22 #2
I'd like to believe this Nasruddin Mar 22 #40
Trump knows he going to lose the election.. agingdem Mar 23 #66
YES, I agree MorbidButterflyTat Mar 23 #116
Celebrity lawyers are paid to fill a role and support an agenda. TwilightZone Mar 22 #3
Pretty awesome accounting. cachukis Mar 22 #5
There's not politicizing the DoJ, and then there's being so afraid of the appearance of being political... Silent3 Mar 22 #7
I think the NYT article's mind reading is as bogus as a carnival medium bigtree Mar 22 #10
"Salacious editorializing" is not a minor thing Silent3 Mar 22 #14
funny that the exoneration isn't your talking point bigtree Mar 22 #19
Now there's an intellectually dishonest debate tactic! Silent3 Mar 22 #26
I'll make it simple bigtree Mar 22 #32
I'm talking about my opinion of Garland and the DoJ Silent3 Mar 23 #70
you've posted nothing to back that up bigtree Mar 23 #75
No, my opinion is only contradicted by your opinion Silent3 Mar 23 #76
I actually posted facts that you didn't address at all bigtree Mar 23 #81
I've seen many lists before of all the things the DoJ has supposedly done... Silent3 Mar 23 #119
"Taking the win and moving on"? Takket Mar 22 #24
they spent ONE day on that and moved on. bigtree Mar 22 #34
Milquetoast Merrick needs to go. Sky Jewels Mar 23 #80
I can think of some other folks who are also pining for him to leave bigtree Mar 23 #82
Yep MorbidButterflyTat Mar 23 #118
Let's be clear, Hur testified he "did not exonerate" the president. sop Mar 23 #79
the fuck bigtree Mar 23 #83
You keep on using the term "exoneration," yet Hur specifically testified he did not exonerate Biden. sop Mar 23 #88
you're using Hur's language to make that point bigtree Mar 23 #89
Let's cut through all the pointless semantics: sop Mar 23 #90
but we're not the media bigtree Mar 23 #91
Thank you. dchill Mar 22 #11
We have all been part of the show. cachukis Mar 22 #12
Man, I have reread this twice. cachukis Mar 22 #16
Posting on the earlier article I said the cheer leaders would be staying up republianmushroom Mar 22 #13
I stopped responding to edhopper Mar 22 #17
Thankfully their numbers are now small. Celerity Mar 22 #22
But vocal edhopper Mar 22 #29
Well, that is unfortunately usually a given here. Celerity Mar 22 #33
you have a lot of nerve talking about me like that bigtree Mar 22 #23
I have the nauseating feeling that we are all... dchill Mar 22 #15
I don't know what this post is trying to prove... appmanga Mar 22 #18
I rest my case. cachukis Mar 22 #20
so you read nothing bigtree Mar 22 #21
You clearly did not read the NYT article Fiendish Thingy Mar 22 #45
Fucking "Rule of Law" thing pisses me off OAITW r.2.0 Mar 22 #27
Can you fit any more strawmen into one post? Goodheart Mar 22 #28
Thank you. ancianita Mar 22 #31
I can't be the only one that thinks the slower the better. rubbersole Mar 22 #35
Still at it writing tomes defending Garland, huh? brush Mar 22 #36
As I've said... the proof is in the pudding, and here's the pudding Goodheart Mar 22 #37
You are exactly right. Garland has been a poor AG. The OP poster keeps posting the same crap... brush Mar 22 #39
Family member? Goodheart Mar 22 #41
Really? brush Mar 22 #43
I have no idea. Wouldn't surprise me because of the over-the-top defensiveness. Goodheart Mar 22 #44
Your timeline is incomplete Fiendish Thingy Mar 22 #50
If you think his job was to win the election, you're making the same mistake Trump made about his DOJ bigtree Mar 22 #46
Win the election? No. His job was to prosecute the orange toad and his cabal who lead... brush Mar 22 #49
he is prosecuting him bigtree Mar 23 #55
Keep on your crusade. He's still been a poor AG. brush Mar 23 #56
you listen here bigtree Mar 23 #59
Ok, ok, ok. I give up. Have at it. brush Mar 23 #61
I don't need your permission bigtree Mar 23 #63
Ok. Ok. You're taking this too seriously. brush Mar 23 #64
there's always someone jumping on my threads to tell me all about myself bigtree Mar 23 #65
It's just a discussion board. Not that big a deal. brush Mar 23 #67
baiting and bullying on these pages is a big deal bigtree Mar 23 #68
AGAIN with the strawmen? Goodheart Mar 22 #51
As bad as the NYT article is, it still destroys nearly all of the myths about Garland Fiendish Thingy Mar 22 #38
Yet we're 3 years+ since J6 and trump has yet to be tried. brush Mar 22 #47
Your impatience does not mean a ball was dropped Fiendish Thingy Mar 23 #53
3 year plus is not impatience. Blind to reality is unfortunate though. He's been a poor AG. brush Mar 23 #54
Garland has not been working on the Trump prosecution for 3 years bigtree Mar 23 #57
No more pls. Keep tilting at windmills. brush Mar 23 #58
jesus bigtree Mar 23 #62
there's that bigtree Mar 22 #48
+1. and thanks. you are not the only person I have read today stopdiggin Mar 23 #60
Perfect example of a straw man: "Garland did nothing to investigate Trump until Smith was appointed" Silent3 Mar 23 #71
talk about a straw man bigtree Mar 23 #86
I don't think you understand what a "straw man" argument is Silent3 Mar 23 #107
unless 'core questions' come with more than angst over time passed bigtree Mar 23 #111
"and with actual receipts to back all of that up" Silent3 Mar 23 #117
you're making a simple argument bigtree Mar 23 #120
the thread is packed full of responses to your fallacy bigtree Mar 23 #121
That is/was a common complaint amongst Garland bashers Fiendish Thingy Mar 23 #92
it was really galling to hear the committee members like Schiff to complain about delays bigtree Mar 23 #93
Thank you. I need to read this again, twice. Joinfortmill Mar 23 #52
Anonymous internet poster says renowned Constitutional scholar Lawrence Tribe is full of shit. All righty then. jalan48 Mar 23 #69
this discussion board isn't a clearance house for Tribe and Weissmann bigtree Mar 23 #77
I'm reminded of that famous Apollo 13 quote, "Success IS an OPTION" lostnfound Mar 23 #73
If the lives of billions of people depended on getting to the moon in a hurry... Silent3 Mar 23 #78
I 100% agree. And in the case of Apollo 13, rushing rocket science is exactly what they had to do lostnfound Mar 23 #122
IOW NanaCat Mar 23 #74
Let's be clear. Garland failed us. Sky Jewels Mar 23 #84
I believe Tribe and Weissman have valid points. ms liberty Mar 23 #85
since you've been here a while, you should know about hit and run posting bigtree Mar 23 #87
bigtree, you must be getting lonely, being a diehard Garland supporter. Paladin Mar 23 #98
His OP has 36 recs at last count. Moosepoop Mar 23 #100
Actually, if you look at the number of recs divided by the number of views, the quotient is remarkably low. Earth-shine Mar 23 #103
Recs divided by views means exactly what? Moosepoop Mar 23 #105
I assume that "number of views" represents people on "both sides" of this argument. Earth-shine Mar 23 #106
Of course the views are from "both sides." Moosepoop Mar 23 #108
Frankly, that's a load of Moosepoop. People can do the math for themselves. Earth-shine Mar 23 #110
Yes, they can. Moosepoop Mar 23 #113
Exactly. The number of recs doesn't go up at all, does it? Earth-shine Mar 23 #115
Duplicate post n/t Moosepoop Mar 23 #114
Bingo! nt Quixote1818 Mar 23 #112
most of us have come to grips with the fact that the AG hasn't been investigating or prosecuting Trump and Co. bigtree Mar 23 #104
This is becoming sad. Scrivener7 Mar 23 #101
have some tea and a cookie bigtree Mar 23 #102
Yes, it really is. n/t demmiblue Mar 23 #109
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