General Discussion

eomer

(3,845 posts)

276. You said: "The teachers are negotiating with you, via your representatives."

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 08:44 PM

Sep 2012

Last edited Thu Sep 13, 2012, 09:16 PM - Edit history (2)

To me that is the least important of my connections with teachers and that's why I'm not in favor of my representatives haggling down their salaries and benefits as if it were on my behalf. I want teachers to have great salaries and great benefits even if we could get away with far less. That's because the benefits to society of having well-paid teachers are much more important to me than cutting my taxes. And those benefits are tremendously more important to me than cutting taxes on the wealthy.

So the reason I took your view as one-dimensional is because you seemed to boil it down to that. Apparently I was wrong and you do agree there are reasons to want teachers to be well-paid even if we could get away with less?

Edit to add: Teachers are on my side and I'm on theirs. My "representatives" are my adversaries in these times, sadly.

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I'd like someone to tell me how it is possible to be a liberal and not support striking teachers. [View all] Stinky The Clown Sep 2012 OP

Public employees are employed to serve the needs of the citizenry. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #1

Economic times are tough forthemiddle Sep 2012 #7

Apparently you missed this: Poll shows strong support for chicago teachers HiPointDem Sep 2012 #27

That poll doesn't say anything about supporting a strike Freddie Stubbs Sep 2012 #29

"they were joined by many of the very people who are most inconvenienced by their walkout" Hissyspit Sep 2012 #134

Hey He Has Been Here Since 2001 With Less Than 50 Posts HangOnKids Sep 2012 #75

I think you are right that part of human nature says "I have it tough, so should they". BUT pampango Sep 2012 #43

This is not the 1st time the economy has dipped or fallen. Teachers are society's scapegoats today. MichiganVote Sep 2012 #100

Even with Government jobs, we don't have a right to work public servants like slaves. Zalatix Sep 2012 #12

The same labor dynamic exists in public employment as private. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #16

Good work NEVER comes cheap. People keep trying to circumvent that and it never works. Zalatix Sep 2012 #187

Is $76,000 annually for 9 months work "starvation"? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #227

No, but they're worth WELL over $76K and teachers around here don't make nearly that much. Zalatix Sep 2012 #232

Only in Lake Woebegone is everyone worth more than average. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #233

The good ones certainly are WinniSkipper Sep 2012 #236

We don't have to sink to the market rate. eomer Sep 2012 #222

The people paying the bills are not insulated from "the market rate". lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #224

Progressive taxation will take care of that. eomer Sep 2012 #235

"...we don't have a right to work public servants like slaves." porphyrian Sep 2012 #24

FIY tama Sep 2012 #39

The contract that they will eventually accept won't affect privatized schools in any way. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #179

Awwww... tama Sep 2012 #203

Tell me you're not a teacher. Please. n/t lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #218

You are not a public employee's employer obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #70

Agreed. Iris Sep 2012 #266

Not individually, no. Collectively? Yes. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #273

Actually, I do not consider my son's teachers my employees. Chorophyll Sep 2012 #126

The pecking order is this: lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #178

that's a pretty narrow view of the world... Javaman Sep 2012 #212

Who is "the school district"? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #215

Oh for fuck sakes. Javaman Sep 2012 #219

So long as teachers aren't striking, it's being run properly? Does it matter if kids are learning? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #223

and your point is? I answered you about civics then throw this at me? Javaman Sep 2012 #230

That's your assertion, not mine. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #231

Look, what ever gets you though the night. Javaman Sep 2012 #239

Yeah. You said that. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #240

Nice try, but we're still done. Javaman Sep 2012 #260

Hysterical. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #262

Sure why not? Javaman Sep 2012 #263

Ah, not to argue over this as I agree as far as your list of adults goes, more or less. NYC_SKP Sep 2012 #213

I have to disagree, and I don't think I've failed civics 101, thank you. Chorophyll Sep 2012 #226

The purpose of unions is to bargain collectively. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #228

Your sense of entitlement is stunning. Chorophyll Sep 2012 #270

The teacher to student ratio is 1:20 in CPS grade schools. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #271

Thank you. Iris Sep 2012 #267

You're welcome. Chorophyll Sep 2012 #268

Yes - you don't exactly expect to see the term "pecking order" Iris Sep 2012 #278

Yep. And sanitation workers, cops, firefighters -- all self-employed! Chorophyll Sep 2012 #283

Would you like them to pick some cotton for you too, massa suh? Scootaloo Sep 2012 #201

If you think that the policy and conduct of your school district is none of your business... lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #216

Do you believe your education is important or secondary? lunatica Sep 2012 #208

That's a compelling argument. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #217

They're citizens, too. Zalatix Sep 2012 #241

Absolutely. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #243

Ah, good blame the victim logic right there. Zalatix Sep 2012 #244

Victim?? Jesus. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #247

They called the strike because they wanted improvements in working conditions. Zalatix Sep 2012 #255

+1 nt Javaman Sep 2012 #261

I don't know. Maybe if you have three kids and have nowhere else to send them to school ... GodlessBiker Sep 2012 #2

Do you know why a crab bucket doesn't need a lid? Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #10

+1,000!!! Zalatix Sep 2012 #13

This 100% obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #71

I grew up in the desert. Arizona, to be specific. I live in Portland, OR now, but have no clue... boppers Sep 2012 #139

Every time one crab tries to climb out of the bucket, the other crabs drag him back down. n/t backscatter712 Sep 2012 #152

Thank you. boppers Sep 2012 #157

Sorry, mountain boy myself. When you go crabbing you just bring a pail and as Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #159

This does not supercede the right to strike obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #72

It wasn't meant to supercede the right to strike. It was meant to show... GodlessBiker Sep 2012 #90

And if... YvonneCa Sep 2012 #132

Maybe if you had three kids you'd be worried about the kind of country they sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #91

EXCELLENT post. n/t YvonneCa Sep 2012 #138

Plenty of teachers are single parents and their bills pile up too. MichiganVote Sep 2012 #104

Oh, forget it. You win. All liberals are equally politically sophisticated. GodlessBiker Sep 2012 #121

That's too nuanced for the 'you're either with us or against us' crowd. randome Sep 2012 #123

People understand nuance, but at some point you do have to pick a side usually. Hissyspit Sep 2012 #130

I do not support Karen Lewis wanting a 29% pay increase. randome Sep 2012 #135

How is "not informed" a bad *argument* for why people might be against the strike? boppers Sep 2012 #140

Hell, yeah, give me more information. randome Sep 2012 #145

Really? Hissyspit Sep 2012 #165

Yes. The question was "why". boppers Sep 2012 #172

I understood the question. Hissyspit Sep 2012 #183

So, to be a liberal, you have to be highly aware of all current issues? boppers Sep 2012 #195

This message was self-deleted by its author Hissyspit Sep 2012 #198

It's not a purity test at all. Hissyspit Sep 2012 #199

Here;s the OP for reference: boppers Sep 2012 #200

And the rebuttal is a Jeff Foxworthy line: you may not be a liberal... eomer Sep 2012 #264

How low we have sunk. boppers Sep 2012 #282

Somebody has sunk, don't think it's me. eomer Sep 2012 #284

You are right about the need to learn about the interconncetedness of things. When I... YvonneCa Sep 2012 #143

Striking Chicago Teachers Get Support From Parents Hissyspit Sep 2012 #133

As a Democrat kctim Sep 2012 #3

". . . . . . for you all not to consider them Republican?" Stinky The Clown Sep 2012 #6

I get what you mean, but the last sentence needs work. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #11

Depends how you define liberal. limpyhobbler Sep 2012 #4

I'd like somebody to tell me how it is possible to say that liberals should ALWAYS do anything. renie408 Sep 2012 #5

Simple. You can't. Now, you can certainly be a Democrat and be strongly anti-worker, just look Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #8

What profits? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #14

There are plenty of profits when the public sphere is privatized, which is what's been happening HiPointDem Sep 2012 #28

It is a background issue, not central to the strike. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #32

It is *not* a background issue, it's at the core of the evaluations issue. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #35

Charter schools are the central part of this strike obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #73

My issue is not with teacher pay joeglow3 Sep 2012 #23

Out of curiosity, what do you think Chicago teachers are paid? n/t lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #34

Pay scale tops out at about $92K for a teacher with PhD and 20 years in. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #40

We agree that privatized schools are a problem. But that's not the topic. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #55

16% is a bargaining position that carries with it, e.g. higher employee payments for health benefits HiPointDem Sep 2012 #57

Okay, fine. Point out the teacher analagous to Bill Gates in the CPS system. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #65

There isn't likely to be any teacher analogous to bill gates. but the 'average" *is* right-skewed HiPointDem Sep 2012 #77

[citation neeeded] boppers Sep 2012 #144

This is directly from the school district lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #181

i'm not sure why you think that negates my example. In my example on the misleading nature HiPointDem Sep 2012 #202

it doesn't fascisthunter Sep 2012 #238

Your contention is that an average figure doesn't give an accurate idea of the pay of each teacher. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #245

where's that, jeff? btw, of course you know that the rahm gang passed a law that limited HiPointDem Sep 2012 #246

Third time's a charm lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #248

Because they can bargain for the other demands using salary as leverage. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #249

Here's what will happen. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #250

what don't you understand about 'there is no fucking 16% raise.' that's a bargaining position, and HiPointDem Sep 2012 #251

We'll see. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #252

if all they wanted was a raise, they could have got it on day one. because rahm came in with HiPointDem Sep 2012 #253

I support collective bargaining. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #254

Saying 'i support the chicago teachers strike' and 'chicago teachers make too much money' = HiPointDem Sep 2012 #256

I've never said the former. nt lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #259

Senate Bill 7 was the work of Jonah Edelman, his corporate reform group Stand for Children, and HiPointDem Sep 2012 #258

I do not think it negates anything. boppers Sep 2012 #280

Corporate media tama Sep 2012 #59

you realize that the atlanta cheating scandal is fallout from the move to high-stakes testing, HiPointDem Sep 2012 #37

That is a local issue and has nothing whatsoever to do with this. Yes, people have let their school Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #197

+1,000 for the cookie joke! Zalatix Sep 2012 #188

It is not possible. mmonk Sep 2012 #9

Because some people had bad experiences MicaelS Sep 2012 #15

I don't think there is a single person that contends that the schools are not screwed up and that Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #17

I will take you at your word that you don't want a flame war, and will answer you in kind: msanthrope Sep 2012 #18

Actually, I'm not pretending it is about anything. Stinky The Clown Sep 2012 #20

I didn't mean to imply that 'you' were pretending...I just think Karen Lewis has been disengenuous msanthrope Sep 2012 #21

All I know about the CPS is a handful of teachers I've known over the years... Hassin Bin Sober Sep 2012 #41

I have no complaint with the compensation, mind you. But when you add in the 5:45 msanthrope Sep 2012 #45

I'll take their word over your misrepresentation tama Sep 2012 #46

What you are implying is illegal and undemocratic. A union is obliged to follow the laws msanthrope Sep 2012 #51

I'm not impressed tama Sep 2012 #56

No, your numbers are wrong. Zoeisright Sep 2012 #53

As I said below, I don't have a problem with the pay. I agree with you that msanthrope Sep 2012 #63

Here is the relevant info from CPS: Teachers - $74,839 annually. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #67

Take home pay typically does not include.... boppers Sep 2012 #146

Teachers in Chicago don't pay SS tax. n/t lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #180

You should look for a teacher. They might be able to help you understand statistics. jeff47 Sep 2012 #92

Aren't liberals free to believe what they want? porphyrian Sep 2012 #19

I won't blindly support anyone, including striking teachers joeglow3 Sep 2012 #22

Yes, everything and everyone should be viewed objectively. randome Sep 2012 #25

Do CPAs have a 3-5 year probationary period before they are deemed "real" CPAs with rights? HiPointDem Sep 2012 #30

Yes, they do. joeglow3 Sep 2012 #50

Turnover rates at the Big 4 firms are irrelevant to anything. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #52

Of course they are......now. joeglow3 Sep 2012 #62

You can't RegieRocker Sep 2012 #26

It depends on what they are striking for.... Walk away Sep 2012 #31

The union is not bargaining for smaller class size. msanthrope Sep 2012 #54

It would be fun to watch tama Sep 2012 #61

I don't think it would be fun. I think the union is msanthrope Sep 2012 #66

Then stop tama Sep 2012 #69

When you've told someone to 'shut up' it indicates that you have no argument. msanthrope Sep 2012 #83

You tama Sep 2012 #93

And now you are quoting Clint Eastwood? nt msanthrope Sep 2012 #109

I like the guy tama Sep 2012 #115

Hell of a speaker, too, right? nt msanthrope Sep 2012 #142

Yup. :) tama Sep 2012 #150

Sorry, they are asking for more assistant teachers s so that there are more teachers/assistants/.... Walk away Sep 2012 #257

I support all striking workers: it's this kind of half-arsed attitude towards unions that weakens MatthewStLouis Sep 2012 #33

Heartily agree HERVEPA Sep 2012 #44

Teaching and learning tama Sep 2012 #49

I stand in support, too. All the way. Solidarity! Zalatix Sep 2012 #189

Its simple... You Can't! krhines Sep 2012 #36

Party first tama Sep 2012 #38

You can't get blood out of a turnip. avebury Sep 2012 #42

This message was self-deleted by its author AnotherMcIntosh Sep 2012 #112

I think some UAW contracts in the 70s were out of control. So sometimes the union might be wrong. Logical Sep 2012 #47

Labor cost is less than 10% of a vehicle. does that sound out of control to you? HiPointDem Sep 2012 #78

To the argument of the CPA and MD and other professionals who lose licenses... cr8tvlde Sep 2012 #48

Teachers also cannot self employ aka hang out a shingle obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #81

26,000 Chicago teachers are on strike...26,000!! Teamster Jeff Sep 2012 #58

blind 100% support for any issue without know the facts rdking647 Sep 2012 #95

Scab Teamster Jeff Sep 2012 #119

Then you're a lackluster citizen. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #182

Lackluster would be having only a single, simplistic dimension to your membership in society. eomer Sep 2012 #265

a) where did I say "taxpayer"? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #269

You said: "The teachers are negotiating with you, via your representatives." eomer Sep 2012 #276

In order to answer your question, I think we would need a solid working coalition_unwilling Sep 2012 #60

I'm the daughter of unionized teachers gollygee Sep 2012 #64

It isn't obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #68

I am absolutely amazed at the replies to this post. Stinky The Clown Sep 2012 #74

Ignorant Propagandists Are Gonna Spread Propaganda. N/T HangOnKids Sep 2012 #79

It's been like this all week obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #82

You should have picked it up by now..... KoKo Sep 2012 #87

So you just wanted to hear affirmations of your own opinion? randome Sep 2012 #88

No shit. I'm appalled at how people who disagreed with the OP were treated. great white snark Sep 2012 #107

Do Tell. How were they "treated'? Stinky The Clown Sep 2012 #114

Omaha Steve got dozens of union members to sign up when WI was happening. Starry Messenger Sep 2012 #117

+1 Union Scribe Sep 2012 #174

the anti-union propaganda runs deep. Javaman Sep 2012 #220

+1 leftstreet Sep 2012 #229

It ain't possible. - K&R n/t DeSwiss Sep 2012 #76

HOME SCHOOLED!!! Meg_Griffin_1 Sep 2012 #80

omg obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #84

LOL Teamster Jeff Sep 2012 #85

Awesome! You know to the dollar what your kids are worth. Very nice, very nice. DisgustipatedinCA Sep 2012 #86

For The Win HangOnKids Sep 2012 #141

If you read the post again, no worth was mentioned by them. boppers Sep 2012 #149

Maybe you should read my post a second time, or a third DisgustipatedinCA Sep 2012 #168

I did. You replied to a poster talking about their children's income, but made a remark about worth. boppers Sep 2012 #173

Getting closer. n/t DisgustipatedinCA Sep 2012 #186

Post removed Post removed Sep 2012 #98

This message was self-deleted by its author HangOnKids Sep 2012 #136

Same here, but some people can NOT afford that. Zalatix Sep 2012 #192

Yep Dorian Gray Sep 2012 #207

The OP was about DEMS supporting teachers Doctor_J Sep 2012 #211

i posted yesterday saying i though the strike was a mistake rdking647 Sep 2012 #89

The strike should have happened a long time ago. It should have happened as sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #96

maybe it should have happened a long time ago rdking647 Sep 2012 #99

Do you know what they want? You don't seem to frankly. sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #103

what they want will cost money. period rdking647 Sep 2012 #106

What Rahm and his corporate buddies want has cost the taxpayers millions. sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #113

We can't pay our teachers more, but we can pay for drone strikes and tax breaks for the rich??? Zalatix Sep 2012 #194

What I find especially...interesting...is why objectivity like yours is castigated. randome Sep 2012 #97

i actually had to report a post for the first time ever yesterday rdking647 Sep 2012 #102

I respect you for your insight bigwillq Sep 2012 #110

Jesus, it's almost like 'coming out', isn't it? randome Sep 2012 #111

No need to come out. Most everyone here already knows. Zorra Sep 2012 #129

Because critical thinking skills are not valued by some DUers. I get it. randome Sep 2012 #131

You gotta shoot for the moon ~ Zorra Sep 2012 #193

You talk of critical thinking skills but it's obvious... Javaman Sep 2012 #221

Fair point. randome Sep 2012 #225

No shit! Union Scribe Sep 2012 #176

you are not what I would consider a liberal fascisthunter Sep 2012 #160

what is labeled a liberal here in most of teh world would be label far left fringe rdking647 Sep 2012 #169

Where, Iran? Union Scribe Sep 2012 #177

does being a liberal mean you have to support every single so called liberal idea? rdking647 Sep 2012 #94

What is a Liberal to you? I am a Democrat and Democrats traditionally support the sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #101

in general i support unions rdking647 Sep 2012 #105

If you supported the teachers in Wisconsin, it doesn't make any sense that you wouldn't support proud2BlibKansan Sep 2012 #125

That is very definitely worth striking over! randome Sep 2012 #127

Texas. Got it. Can you be a bit more specific. cr8tvlde Sep 2012 #153

How is it possible to be a Democrat and not support a Democratic Mayor? (nt) Nye Bevan Sep 2012 #108

By declaring tama Sep 2012 #116

I'm a liberal American first and foremost... mike_c Sep 2012 #118

You can put your mind at ease, Stinky. Zorra Sep 2012 #120

My thoughts exactly! n/t backscatter712 Sep 2012 #147

I don't think you can, to me to be anti-union is the arthritisR_US Sep 2012 #122

I support unions in general, but that doesn't mean liberals have to support 100% Proles Sep 2012 #124

Of course the question was about striking teachers. Teachers on strike. Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #154

Well you're right, I should have read the question more closely. I thought it said unions. Proles Sep 2012 #163

"of course i support unions...teachers...just not in *this* case....or any other case that comes HiPointDem Sep 2012 #288

Oh, they are lying about being liberals - just like our politicians. Edweird Sep 2012 #128

This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Sep 2012 #137

That's right. backscatter712 Sep 2012 #151

why do you think madfloridan left...... madrchsod Sep 2012 #148

I do support the teachers and hope they get what they are asking for bluestateguy Sep 2012 #155

That's an easy one....... Swede Atlanta Sep 2012 #156

The problem isn't just the money. backscatter712 Sep 2012 #158

no fascisthunter Sep 2012 #161

And liberals are never sociopaths? Or want to be rich? randome Sep 2012 #162

If you're behaving sociopathically, that is by definition not liberal. backscatter712 Sep 2012 #166

Did you get an answer to your question? randome Sep 2012 #164

do you realize what an incredible opportunity has been wasted? ibegurpard Sep 2012 #167

heres a hypothetical question rdking647 Sep 2012 #170

You Have Now Gone From Being Obtuse To Being Absurd HangOnKids Sep 2012 #175

haha fascisthunter Sep 2012 #237

Unfortunately, the message has been muddied. Reader Rabbit Sep 2012 #171

precisely! ibegurpard Sep 2012 #191

Post removed Post removed Sep 2012 #184

It's possible to be a liberal and not support lots of things. To be liberal is to be part of a herd cherokeeprogressive Sep 2012 #185

So tama Sep 2012 #204

I think every working man in this country should stop B Calm Sep 2012 #190

What do you think DemocratsForProgress Sep 2012 #196

I'm sincerely sorry tama Sep 2012 #206

And I'm sincerely sorry DemocratsForProgress Sep 2012 #274

Jumping into personal attack tama Sep 2012 #275

Had you made this comment originally, I'd have taken your meaning. DemocratsForProgress Sep 2012 #277

No need to apology tama Sep 2012 #281

kiitos n/t DemocratsForProgress Sep 2012 #285

<3 tama Sep 2012 #286

I'm not interested in getting attention of the power-elite tama Sep 2012 #205

I think woo me with science Sep 2012 #210

You aren't talking to liberals. You aren't even talking to "centrists." woo me with science Sep 2012 #209

You'll see, in my OP, that I asked for a discussion . . . . . Stinky The Clown Sep 2012 #214

You asked a very specific question, and you got a very specific answer. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #234

Sad state of affairs here. n/t Iris Sep 2012 #279

Heh tama Sep 2012 #287

amen. it makes one very sad. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #289

It would be possible if the teachers' demands were unrealistic. OneTenthofOnePercent Sep 2012 #242

it's not possible, Stinky. bigtree Sep 2012 #272