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dpibel

(2,896 posts)
35. Let us all be precise
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 09:33 PM
Dec 2019

In point of fact, the OP made no "general assertion ... that silence is an indication of guilt." The subject line that has raised all the ire referred to testimony. Apropos your argument regarding non-litigation silence: If there is no proceeding, there can be no testimony or refusal to testify.

Note that your response in post #12 is couched entirely in terms of testimony in court. Although your post #19 broadens to "remaining silent as a sign of guilt," it's hard to separate that from your original post, which dealt entirely with criminal procedure, especially when you refer to lawyers having to confront the misperception. Other attorney-commenters in this thread also cast this in terms of protecting the right not to self-incriminate.

Hence, the appearance that you are applying criminal law analysis to the issue at hand.

Your discussion of President Obama is, I respectfully suggest, off point.

President Obama was never involved in a legal proceeding involving his birthplace or any of the other allegations that you list. In such situations, the best course frequently is, indeed, "I will not dignify that ridiculous claim with a response." No one has an obligation to respond to facially ridiculous claims. That said, I will remind you that, on the issue of birthplace, President Obama did ultimately produce his "long form" birth certificate. Frankly, if he had been asked about any of these allegations as part of a proceeding subject to compulsory process, I'm not at all sure dignified silence would have been the right course. But, unlike the case of Donald Trump, we'll never know, since President Obama failed to do anything during his term in office that merited any form of legal proceeding, civil or criminal.

But there is a third category.

In civil proceedings, you do not, in fact, have the option of keeping dignified silence in the face of calumny. You do not have the option of saying, "I will not dignify this with a response." You are free to do that in a standard lawsuit, of course. So long as you are prepared to have a default judgment entered against you. And you do not have the option of saying, once you've filed an answer, "I'd really rather not discuss it." You will discuss it, and you will produce any and all apposite documents, or you will suffer sanctions, up to and including judgment against you.

Of course you can, to your heart's content, take the Fifth during your deposition, and not a person in the world can stop you. Same with interrogatories. But once you do that, the plaintiff gets to go before the court and say, "I'm entitled to the inference that answering these questions would have harmed the defendant's case as follows..."

As I've said in another post in this thread, we're in somewhat uncharted territory as to whether the inferences available in a standard civil suit are available in an impeachment. Adam Schiff thinks they are, or at least that's what he's said during the hearings.

But one thing we can say for sure: Donald Trump has no Fifth Amendment right to decline to answer questions.

And that is the way this discussion has been cast by the various lawyers in this thread. And that is misleading, I believe, to lay readers.



That's not always true. StarfishSaver Dec 2019 #1
Oh shit Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #10
Absolutely. Sometimes there isn't irrefutable evidence. Texin Dec 2019 #11
All six claims in OP are not always true? greyl Dec 2019 #17
Ad worthy. Nt jaysunb Dec 2019 #2
Lots of innocent people do not testify, particularly if their lawyer thinks the prosecution ... marble falls Dec 2019 #3
They don't refuse to testify AND supply documents that would clear their name. onecaliberal Dec 2019 #4
It's clear what you meant with the context you gave. kcr Dec 2019 #20
A general rule in a defense: do not offer argument against points the prosecution failed to make ... marble falls Dec 2019 #22
I am NOT a lawyer, never claimed to be. Was NOT making a legal argument. onecaliberal Dec 2019 #23
I'm not meaning to ride you. I apologize. I think you are a reasonable person reasonably worked ... marble falls Dec 2019 #24
I don't agree Raine Dec 2019 #5
In addition to everything else. onecaliberal Dec 2019 #6
Yeah, no. Innocent people refuse to testify all the time. n/t X_Digger Dec 2019 #7
Another lawyer chiming in: yes, innocent people do refuse to testify. There can be good reasons. Shrike47 Dec 2019 #8
Do innocent people refuse to cough up everything making it impossible onecaliberal Dec 2019 #9
One more lawyer here - Ms. Toad Dec 2019 #12
I'm pretty sure most know what I mean. This isn't court. onecaliberal Dec 2019 #15
Most of the responses are similar to mine, Ms. Toad Dec 2019 #19
"nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself" dpibel Dec 2019 #30
I'm discussing the general assertion that the OP made that silence is an indicaton of guilt. Ms. Toad Dec 2019 #34
Let us all be precise dpibel Dec 2019 #35
you want to make a solid argument stopdiggin Dec 2019 #13
i clearly didn't articulate my thoughts very well. onecaliberal Dec 2019 #14
Can we just say that innocent people don't: Stonepounder Dec 2019 #16
YES! thank you. onecaliberal Dec 2019 #18
In an ideal world where everyone deals honestly and openly. But then there'd be no crime and courts. marble falls Dec 2019 #25
Innocent people don't testify on their own behalf Codeine Dec 2019 #21
Defendants in civil cases do dpibel Dec 2019 #29
False.....as stated above, innocent ppl don't testify EVERYday. AncientGeezer Dec 2019 #26
I get what you were saying Bettie Dec 2019 #27
Thank you. onecaliberal Dec 2019 #32
Question for the legal experts on this thread dpibel Dec 2019 #28
The poster made a blanket statement Codeine Dec 2019 #31
Blankets to blankets dpibel Dec 2019 #33
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Innocent people don't ref...»Reply #35