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Igel

(35,386 posts)
100. Does that mean the victim of non-touching does, too?
Sun Mar 31, 2019, 06:20 PM
Mar 2019

It's a simple question. There's a difference of culture.

One person says, "I don't care about intent. All that matters is what I feel."

Screw empathy.

To hell with cultural differences.

I don't give a rat's ass as to what somebody else thinks.

I'm for diversity. Now get in line, stay in your lane, and while I'm not going to give you a hint as to what I think you're stuck in the 7th circle of hell if you don't what I disapprove of. There's no squish, no give, no forgiveness, just obedience. Gosh whiz, I'm glad we're into tolerance and hate the idea of authoritarianism.

And what you get is the most restrictive person must always win. Provided that that particular person has the power and privilege, which is what, if you listen, a lot of it is about. A recent interview with the Biden accuser couldn't help but say that there was a power difference between her and Biden and this was his way, basically, of oppressing her. It didn't matter if that was his intent, she felt oppression, so he was objectively her oppressor and should be found guilty of that.

I think there's also more to it than that, because equality can be achieved even with a diverse and sometimes mutually offensive set of customs. There's also, I think, suspicion and alienation. A person does something that's ambiguous, and there's pre-emptive judgment, smack the person down before s/he can be oppressive because, well, in the past there was wronging. It's sort of like the Soviet view from the 1920s that the children of the former oppressors, even if they were young and their parents are dead, must be kept down lest they rise up and produce a new generation of oppressors. Punishing sinners to the 3rd, 4th, and 5th generation. With lives ruined because in 1955 your career could be destroyed by the finding that your birth great-grandmother was aristocracy in 1915, that your mother was orphaned and adopted by somebody in 1919, and while that was a secret, nonetheless as the child of privilege 3 generations removed you must be punished. At the same time, if in 1955 you could show that your great-grandparents were wronged, somehow that grievance, that wrongdoing, was still a feather in your cap and somehow made you virtuous.

It all strikes me as strange.

Here is an idea....When Men and Women pols are in public....NO CONTACT... ProudMNDemocrat Mar 2019 #1
Never happen Funtatlaguy Mar 2019 #2
God. this sounds so rigid and puritanical, like something out of sex-segregated Catholic School kennetha Mar 2019 #4
What I suggested is an IDEA..... ProudMNDemocrat Mar 2019 #10
THAT is a ridiculous standard brooklynite Mar 2019 #72
It would seem fairly likely that those who crowd to the front... 3catwoman3 Mar 2019 #128
What you are likely unaware of Ms. Toad Mar 2019 #45
oh c'mon. kennetha Mar 2019 #53
Wow. Seriously? cwydro Mar 2019 #64
A handshake. A light touch on the shoulder. kennetha Mar 2019 #68
A handshake is not "pawing". MicaelS Mar 2019 #111
To my knowledge he didn't paw her and don't believe she said that. FloridaBlues Mar 2019 #129
"pawed" was not what they were talking about treestar Apr 2019 #140
There have to be social standards treestar Apr 2019 #139
Not wanting to be hugged is not that uncommon. Ms. Toad Apr 2019 #145
No handshaking? unblock Mar 2019 #9
I loathe this new culture of hugging. CrispyQ Mar 2019 #18
So, the world is heading down the wrong path ... mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #40
Not the world Ghost of Tom Joad Mar 2019 #87
It's a personal choice that should be respected. CrispyQ Apr 2019 #155
Well, I happen to think THE MORE HUGS, THE BETTER THE WORLD IS! mr_lebowski Apr 2019 #156
We definitely need more kindness & empathy. CrispyQ Apr 2019 #158
Thank you! shanti Mar 2019 #44
I'm a boomer and a hugger. Ms. Toad Mar 2019 #50
I also think it's relatively new in the workplace & inappropriate. CrispyQ Apr 2019 #157
It's not new, it's very cultural Drahthaardogs Mar 2019 #52
Not a new culture. Igel Mar 2019 #98
In US corporate culture I think hugging is fairly recent. CrispyQ Apr 2019 #154
What if they linger on the handshake too long? Hmmmm. John Fante Mar 2019 #49
The smile thing might seem amusing but Bettie Mar 2019 #63
Yeah. That happened. nt cwydro Mar 2019 #66
Don't let some random idiot change who you are. Please. John Fante Mar 2019 #70
Why change due to one obviously nutty person? treestar Apr 2019 #142
Doubt voters will warm up to a candidate who appears germaphobic, misanthropic, or agoraphobic emulatorloo Mar 2019 #34
A whole lot of them warmed up to Trump, who is all of those things The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #41
Plus no smiling. H2O Man Mar 2019 #71
interesting idea - i'll call it the "Fox News behavioral standard for Democratic candidates" 0rganism Apr 2019 #143
solves it going forward yes qazplm135 Apr 2019 #152
The person who is touched is the one who gets to define what is acceptable. lilactime Mar 2019 #3
What if that person is lying or has bad motives. Funtatlaguy Mar 2019 #5
Anybody can lie about anybody else at any time, about anything. lilactime Mar 2019 #11
Yep loyalsister Mar 2019 #60
Well said! I don't understand what is so hard to get about this! A male stranger lilactime Mar 2019 #61
It seems simple to me too loyalsister Mar 2019 #62
I feel for your niece, I was that way too. She's lucky to have you. lilactime Mar 2019 #75
This message was self-deleted by its author LAS14 Mar 2019 #83
And how are the people around you supposed to read your mind to know.... LAS14 Mar 2019 #84
Simple. Don't touch. Then they won't have to "read my mind." lilactime Mar 2019 #91
It's not hard to understand. But it's a picture of a society that I don't want. I want.... LAS14 Mar 2019 #94
And I do. lilactime Mar 2019 #95
+1 Kurt V. Mar 2019 #77
Does that mean the victim of non-touching does, too? Igel Mar 2019 #100
I hope I never meet you. Welcome to my ignore list. lilactime Mar 2019 #110
I would not like to meet you, either. n/t MicaelS Mar 2019 #113
Back atcha. I'm shaken by how many posters think it's fine to put their hands on lilactime Mar 2019 #116
It's been pretty instructive today unfortunately. cwydro Mar 2019 #119
You're right about that. MicaelS Mar 2019 #131
You know, this "Ignore" idea is a really handy thing. COLGATE4 Apr 2019 #159
what if that person is being unreasonable qazplm135 Apr 2019 #153
I am sorry the line between nonsexual contact with clear intent to comfort, support, celebrate and hlthe2b Mar 2019 #6
I agree that line is being conflated in the discussions on DU Ms. Toad Mar 2019 #54
He has... n/t hlthe2b Mar 2019 #55
He's made a start - Ms. Toad Mar 2019 #58
How is someone supposed to know ahead of time whether it will be welcomed? Are you advocating... LAS14 Mar 2019 #86
First of all - Ms. Toad Mar 2019 #89
I was talking about a hypothetical touching on the shoulder. You sounded .... LAS14 Mar 2019 #92
I am sure you are aware of the context of this conversation. n/t Ms. Toad Mar 2019 #96
Well, what are you saying? That I was somehow misrepresenting what... LAS14 Mar 2019 #122
Fine. Don't touch people withouth their consent. n/t Ms. Toad Mar 2019 #127
Well stated. nt LAS14 Mar 2019 #85
I suggest never approaching someone from behind and grabbing them by surprise. MoonRiver Mar 2019 #7
I agree that's a no-brainer! n/t pnwmom Mar 2019 #25
+1 spooky3 Mar 2019 #43
And the girls. roody Mar 2019 #8
Democrats are such precious patsies. You think the Republicans are having silly debates like this? kennetha Mar 2019 #12
Of course they aren't debating the question. Their guy thinks The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #14
A VP touching a candidate's shoulder at a campaign rally in support of said candidate kennetha Mar 2019 #19
I agree. But teeth are being gnashed The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #21
He didn't just touch her shoulder. Tipperary Mar 2019 #73
If I wasn't I'd put my big boy pants on and call 'em on it kennetha Mar 2019 #74
I do not care for her, and i do not find her credible. Tipperary Mar 2019 #76
A person might freeze kennetha Mar 2019 #78
Wow. Tipperary Mar 2019 #80
there's lot's of developmental psychological literature on this topic. kennetha Mar 2019 #81
You say you do not want to sound like a sexist... Tipperary Mar 2019 #106
cause some of us don't know how to fight kennetha Mar 2019 #109
Still then say something about it then treestar Apr 2019 #138
Not only that... GaYellowDawg Mar 2019 #65
But we are extending it to social touching treestar Apr 2019 #137
I think social touching can be misinterpreted, and I also think The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #146
Another issue is people do it to the same sex treestar Apr 2019 #147
Those people were already friends - that's the difference. The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #150
That's going a bit far and will likely be alerted ... mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #47
Thank YOU! smirkymonkey Mar 2019 #103
No and they make fun of us for it treestar Apr 2019 #136
How about assuming that a person you don't know The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #13
Some people differ: ret5hd Mar 2019 #15
Joe Biden is even older than I am. MineralMan Mar 2019 #20
I agree. I don't think Biden is a predator, just a guy whose boundaries The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #24
Well, no doubt we Democrats will beat this thing to a pulp MineralMan Mar 2019 #29
Well, we could go back to bashing Buttigieg The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #30
Meanwhile, the Republicans are slapping each other on the back. MineralMan Mar 2019 #33
I thought it was a good response too. Respects Flores. emulatorloo Mar 2019 #36
His life is a bit different treestar Apr 2019 #144
Totally agree with you Funtatlaguy Mar 2019 #26
I don't believe every woman's claim & I also see a difference in degrees. CrispyQ Mar 2019 #16
This is getting fucking ridiculous ismnotwasm Mar 2019 #17
If as a male you wound't rub another man's shoulders and smell his hair, kiss his head, vsrazdem Mar 2019 #22
+1 leftstreet Mar 2019 #23
I think those things were much more Funtatlaguy Mar 2019 #28
I think many women in the 70s and 80s felt they could spooky3 Mar 2019 #46
+1 Kurt V. Mar 2019 #79
Around 40 seconds in emulatorloo Mar 2019 #37
the way this has always been presented to me in harassment awareness training... Takket Mar 2019 #27
I was told when I was at work that my mother died. Igel Mar 2019 #102
We'll know it when we see it, elleng Mar 2019 #31
Well said. emulatorloo Mar 2019 #38
I can't help it, but I find the Biden "controversy" absolutely stupid. Vinca Mar 2019 #32
Well said. And if we're encouraging such fragility, we should stop. nt LAS14 Mar 2019 #88
I think that this is over the line. Igel Mar 2019 #107
I'm on the autistic spectrum where I don't like to be touched by anyone. hunter Mar 2019 #35
I'm glad you said this. I have a similarly situated relative. spooky3 Mar 2019 #48
I feel for your relative and for spooky3, but I think it is a mistake... LAS14 Mar 2019 #90
I understand your point, but in the case of touching spooky3 Mar 2019 #101
But I want the norm to be freely touching one another, with... LAS14 Mar 2019 #121
I can't agree with that. Sorry. Nt spooky3 Mar 2019 #123
No, "freely touching" should not be the norm. The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #151
try to pick up on what people say makes them uncomfortable eShirl Mar 2019 #39
Acceptable touch touch consented to by the recipient. Period. Ms. Toad Mar 2019 #42
Well said. Nt spooky3 Mar 2019 #51
We also need to distinguish between sexually inappropriate touching and The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #56
Moving from New England to Georgia to work at a university aikoaiko Mar 2019 #57
Why? What's deemed acceptable today is deemed unacceptable 5 years later. stopbush Mar 2019 #59
YES! GaYellowDawg Mar 2019 #67
I think the main emphasis was elsewhere. Igel Mar 2019 #108
I don't take offense GaYellowDawg Mar 2019 #130
I don't know that we need to define missingthebigdog Mar 2019 #69
I totally agree with you. nocoincidences Mar 2019 #93
Magnificent post. Thanks. n/ t MicaelS Mar 2019 #132
Wow! Thank you. missingthebigdog Mar 2019 #135
I love Joe but I would say this qualifies as not acceptable Quixote1818 Mar 2019 #82
It's folksy. Igel Mar 2019 #115
"We must define acceptable and nonacceptable touching" AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #97
And it behooves YOU to make that clear from the outset. MicaelS Mar 2019 #133
No..that's not how it works.....keep your hands off people. Peroid. AncientGeezer Apr 2019 #162
Who is the "We" doing the "defining"? former9thward Mar 2019 #99
Society. The Democratic Party. Sane rational people. Funtatlaguy Mar 2019 #112
BELIEVE WOMEN. PERIOD. nt MadDAsHell Mar 2019 #104
Nope, sorry, not every time. MicaelS Mar 2019 #134
+2 talk about handing the right wingers a gift wrapped treestar Apr 2019 #148
i dont mind any guy hugging me when its a huggable situation.. samnsara Mar 2019 #105
Intent and context are key. Midnight Writer Mar 2019 #114
Indeed. Right on point. Funtatlaguy Mar 2019 #117
OK, this accidental incident is going to keep me Doreen Mar 2019 #118
Did you get frank, or beans, or both? Funtatlaguy Mar 2019 #120
Frank and beans. Doreen Mar 2019 #124
Yeah, you're totally screwed. He should have sued your pervy ass. 🤡 Funtatlaguy Mar 2019 #125
Yup, I should be sued, I am such a nasty person. Doreen Mar 2019 #126
Sure. If the recipient is okay with it, it's acceptable. hughee99 Apr 2019 #141
I think Biden was wrong, but this is not as bad as most other metoo stories. Oneironaut Apr 2019 #149
judge Kav Daninmo Apr 2019 #160
Maybe the only answer is to have political gatherings take place in a Virtual Reality space. Vinnie From Indy Apr 2019 #161
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