Mc Mike
Mc Mike's JournalSee some interesting things in the back-and-forth of this discussion
Point 5 on Iching's excellent post # 587 could be updated to add 'or encouraging reference to Bugliosi and mcadams'.
MMMom's post #s 183, 484, and 175 all made good points that went unanswered, though the opposing post-ers continued to spend a lot of time afterwards posting 'broken record'-style repeats on other subjects, in this same thread. So lack of a refuting post wasn't due to them getting tired of the subject or having time constraints. They effectively put their fingers in their ears and hummed. The tactic seems to be 'if you can't answer, just ignore it, and hope the silence is discouragement enough'. This tactic also seems like it’s a bit intellectually dishonest for good Democrats to use. Thanks to MMM for all the great posts.
The subthread on the motorcade route change starting at Octa's post # 332 is interesting. 'Proof' was provided in a reply to 332 that there wasn't a last minute change to the route, in the form of 2 Dallas papers' write ups that said 'Main-Houston-Elm', dated 11-19. That 3 day time period could easily be called 'last minute', in the context of preparing security for the President's visit to the Bircher mecca that was Dallas in '63, where Ambassador Stevenson was recently struck and spat on by an 'unruly' mob of repugs, and 'Kennedy = Traitor' newspaper op-eds and posters were printed by the Bircher Hunt family.
The Sol Bloom Agency planned the initial route, and the route was changed. The trip was a p.r. trip, so it was designed by a firm to give Kennedy exposure, in healing the TX Dem delegation rift, and in running for re-election. But the firm didn’t have final say in putting the president in a dangerous situation, his security people would have to make sure the route was safe, so he didn’t get the wrong kind of ‘exposure’ in an area he described to his wife with the words ‘we’re really in nut country, now.’ One of Octa’s posts points out that the route didn’t have to use the Elm St. entrance to the Freeway, and once they were on the freeway to Ft Worth, the p.r. motorcade through Dallas was over, anyway. So there was no reason to change the route to Elm, period, though it was ‘explained’ to the satisfaction of the W.C. repugs. But the change did occur and resulted in slowing the motorcade down with a dangerous double turn, right by the building where the ‘lone nut’ recently got a job. A fatally dangerous change.
A search online for 'Sol Bloom motorcade route' to get info on the subject yields references to both George De Mohrenschildt and Ruth Paine getting Oswald jobs in Dallas. The J-C-S job George got Oswald had him visiting the Bloom Agency dozens of times, and the Paine-procured job put him right on the changed route. Those pictures of him with the Militant and his rifle were fake cut-outs, with different sun-cast shadows for the face vs. the body, and the face/head doesn’t change size when the body pose moves forward, so it’s out of proportion. The pictures came from Paine. Oswald was completely set up as a patsy by his two ‘angels’ in Dallas, whether he was an ultra-rightist himself or not.
Having a Jewish mob person shoot Oswald afterward was a Bircher move, like trying to put responsibility for the route onto a Jewish p.r. agency. Both De Mohrenschildt and Paine were hooked into far-right Nazis, ‘christians’, businesspeople with high-level gov security clearances, operating in the city described as ‘the buckle on the bible belt.’ They weren’t Jewish. And the cast of characters around Oswald was set up for a maximum amount of red-herrings, if the ‘lone nut’ story didn’t hold up. His connections with Shaw and Ferrie, as well as his bad relations with his wife, made him out to be a closeted gay person, ‘guilty’ of sexual improprieties; his Russian and Fair Play Cuban connections made him out to be a communist; the Ruby and Bloom connections to the event made him appear to be part of a plot by a religious minority, one that is hated by both the Nazis and birchers. And the birchers are just American Nazi repugs who lost in their bid to back Hitler or have America go the nazi way.
The same people hated Kennedy and smeared him as a religious minority engaged in a plot against America, as a communist, as a sexual pervert. Then he was killed, and they offered up their suspect, someone with the same negative descriptors attached. They openly hated JFK, but they didn’t kill him, someone who was connected to everything they hated about him killed him.
You don’t have to be tremendously astute to notice that the same crowd --of bircher far right repug Nazi sheisskopfs, their descendants, their intellectual and political heirs -- are saying the same thing today about our current Democratic president. He’s a ‘communist’, he’s a ‘Muslim plotting to destroy America’, he’s ‘gay’. It’s the same tactic from the same one-trick pony.
That’s not a coincidence, it’s a pattern.
Thanks, Octa.
Your posts and links are always worth viewing. And they keep a certain element occupied, as a added bonus. Off the streets and out of trouble, maybe?
It's funny that the mechanics of the site make it so hard to have a general discussion about a Democratic president's assassination -- in a virulently repug part of the country where schoolkids cheered when they heard about it -- as we approach the 50th anniversary of the assassination.
(Here, before anyone can start whinge-ing about the school kid thing, this was posted by DUer Mabus in '09, in response to redqueen's query on this site:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=19631128&id=VEgNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YGwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6266,4365719
Note that it is not just the minister saying it, but also a teacher. The article is an AP article, in addition to Cronkite's CBS news coverage of 11/26. I had to wade through 2 yahoo pages of freeper, weekly standard, and newsbuster denials, before getting this hit. Among the hits were a lot of accusations that Dem schoolkids cheered when Reagan was shot, while decrying the Democratic 'smear' and 'libel' of claiming the repug kids actually cheered Kennedy's murder. Typical repug projection. And additionally, of course, the Reagan shooter's family was hooked into Bush.)
The vast majority of the American public doesn't buy the 'official story'. When reading the posts of people who say it was the 'lone nut' Oswald, I always try to put myself in their shoes, to try to figure out how they think, why they post like they do, what motivates them. This seems like what the Democrats do, in general, as opposed to what the caveman repug party and their ilk does.
The three possible categories I could figure them in are repug disruptor, people who perversely want an argument and function as useful idiots, and good Democrats who think that they are getting stigmatized by having 'conspiracy theorists' associated with 'their' Dem site. I don't believe the high-count long-term posting nay-sayers are repugs, or they would be gone by now. I don't hate the nay-saying post-ers, their derisive, repetitive postings just make me see red, and make me unfairly sometimes put them into the 'useful idiot' category. Probably they're good Dems who fall into the third category. I just wish they'd extend the same charitable interpretation to the good posters like Octa who consistently poke holes in the 'official story' with credible information.
The Warren Commission was put together by the people who killed Kennedy. Not LBJ, who was under the gun, too. His first statement as President was 'Now let's get this SOB off the ground', because he wanted to get out of that virulently dangerous area. Johnson said he didn't believe the WC, before he died.
RFK said while running for President 'I now fully realize that only the powers of the Presidency will reveal the secrets of my brother's death', two days before he was assassinated in L.A.. He told reporter Haynes Johnson (of the Washington Evening Star, and Washington Post), immediately after the assassination, that the CIA-mob anti-Castro assassins killed Kennedy. He told his '68 campaign aide Richard Lubic that he would re-open the case once he was elected and, a week before he died, went for several hours to check privately for info on a report of a phone call from Oxnard pre-warning about the assassination on the morning of 11/22. He didn't believe the WC, and Bugliosi's book 'Helter Skelter' covered up the murderous attack on the people in his L.A. campaign advisors' (Tate and Polanski's) home. There's no reason to believe Bugliosi's recent magnum opus about JFK's murder, in light of that fact.
Before Chappaquiddick, Ted had an anguished incident on an airplane where, having been drinking, he said 'They're going to shoot my ass off like they shot my brothers.' If they are able to murder the most politically powerful members of your family, it's safer for that family if you don't raise high-profile media storms by officially saying the murderers are still out there and in power, so he didn't. Chappaquiddick kept him from running, instead of a bullet, so after RFK's death, there would be no Kennedy running for president in the next election.
But for the next election, the Democrats put a member of JFK's 'Irish Mafia' kitchen cabinet (Larry O'Brien) in as head of the DNC. The repugs responded by having E. Howard Hunt (a CIA guy that worked with the right wing and mob's assassination program) and a gang of Miami Cuban 'real estate agents' burglarize the DNC's Watergate offices, to find out what the Dems were going to do about using the Kennedy assassinations against the repugs. Hunt's blackmailing of the Nixon repugs resulted in his wife's death in the Chicago plane crash, with $100,000 dollars of bribe money she was carrying splattering on the runway. That stupid hat Hunt was always photographed wearing during the Watergate scandal is the same stupid hat he was photographed wearing in Dealey Plaza, when he was rounded up in the train yard as a tramp. His 'favorite hat'. Just his way of blackmailing the repug Nixon administration, saying 'you really don't want me to talk, do you?' The bitter, forced out Nixon chief aide Haldeman said in his tell-all book that Nixon's continual taped references to 'the Mexican stuff' and 'the Bay of Pigs stuff', as reasons to shut down the Watergate investigations, were references to the JFK assassination.
The bottom line in this long post is this: I don't begrudge the nay-saying post-ers (the 'Oswald did it' adherents) their right to an opinion. I don't think they're repugs or 'useful idiots', they're honestly good Dems. But approaching the 50th anniversary of the assassination, some Kennedys are putting themselves on the line by questioning the 'official story', hoping like a lot of good researchers to get the true story, instead of the fallacious 'official story', which comes off like a Rube Goldberg contraption. They aren't convinced or comforted by the debunked WC, Bugliosi, or macadams (who was exposed as a 'pro' CIA disruptor). Constantly repeating the citation of these three 'sources' in any discussion of the murder of a good Democratic president just de-rails the discussion. Extend us the courtesy of believing we're good Dems, too, not nuts or part of some repug black psyop designed to discredit Dems. We're just like the vast majority of the American public, we don't buy the official story because it fails to explain what happened in so many ways.
And anyone who says 'the majority of the American public doesn't believe in global warming, either', is ignoring a key difference. The big money powerful oil companies have been expending beaucoup bucks pushing climate change denial in corporate media, which resulted in a big majority saying 'climate change was occurring' turning into a majority saying 'not sure man is causing climate change'. After 50 years, despite the same big money propagandists (with oil ties to the virulent bircher nazi repug Dallas Hunt family and Poppy bush's Standard Oil of New Jersey) spending tons of money and influence pushing the 'official story', the 'ignorant' public still doesn't buy it.
+1, Star.
It's a book about a book that was written by a book. (High Castle about Grasshopper, written by I Ching). Mr. D probably used the I Ching to write High Castle, to boot. (A book written by a book about a book written by a book.)
Imagining a world where the denizens imagine our world. Says the WWII 'Double V' aim of 'Victory against Fascism Abroad and Victory against Fascism at Home' was only partially realized in the first part, and 'far less achieved than is commonly believed' in the second part.
A novel that eloquently says American nazi power types are still pulling their nazi moves, and actual nazis are still exerting organized power. Really enjoyable to read, too, like most PKD books.
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