Fact-check: Sanders set off a firestorm over prisoners voting, but his facts are straight

[Uncle Joe]

(snip)

“I think the right to vote is inherent to our democracy,” Sanders said. “Yes, even for terrible people, because once you start chipping away and you say that person committed a terrible crime, not gonna let him vote, or that person did that, not gonna let that person vote — you’re running down a slippery slope.”

(snip)

Sanders said this ideal has been the reality in Vermont since the state’s founding. “In my own state of Vermont, from the very first days of our state’s history, what our Constitution says is that everybody can vote,” he said. “That is true. So people in jail can vote.”

(snip)

Morales-Doyle said the timing of when disenfranchisement for prisoners was codified in states’ laws is far from random. Before the passage of the 15th Amendment guaranteeing men the right to vote regardless of race, Morales-Doyle said very few states bothered to disenfranchise prisoners. But after the amendment passed, he said there was a wave of states that passed laws or amendments to take away prisoners’ right to vote.

He said the fact that 48 states still don’t allow incarcerated people to vote is unquestionably a relic of Jim Crow-era laws. But, Morales-Doyle said, after Florida’s 2018 vote to enfranchise felons who have completed their sentences, there has been an increased interest in efforts to return voting rights to people across the criminal justice system.

(snip)

https://vtdigger.org/2019/04/24/fact-check-sanders-set-off-firestorm-prisoners-voting-facts-straight/

[YOHABLO]

1. Incarceration does not nullify citizenship.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. I support incarcerated people voting. I can't think of a reason against incarcerated people voting

that wouldn't also apply to people outside of prison.

[Uncle Joe]

3. I believe the movements against incarcerated people being allowed to vote and

the disenfranchisement of Americans outside of prison are inextricably tied together.

Weakening the former diminishes the latter's standing as well.

I agree with you WhiskeyGrinder, I can't think of a reason they shouldn't be allowed to vote while in prison either, to the contrary I believe allowing them to vote increases the potential redemptive aspects whereas some of them would be less likely to be repeat offenders.

[Celerity]

30. closed environs ruled by coercive gangs especially Steve King's type of good folks

Even more grounded as a fundamental reason, you lose most all your optional (in terms of exercising them) rights when you are locked up

your freedom being the most obvious, but you are also removed from society, and thus the right to affect society in general

that includes voting

once you are out, you should auto get them back

[WhiskeyGrinder]

32. But there are shitty people outside prison, too.

I’m aware people lose some rights in prison. Why this one? They’re still a part of society — our taxes support them, their treatment is a reflection of society as a whole, and we tout (slave) work as an important part of “rehabilitation into society.” Why not voting?

[Celerity]

34. shitty people outside are not locked in with you 24-7 by steel and concrete with the constant

power of life and death, reward and punishment over you merely by that enforced proximity-induced dynamic

[WhiskeyGrinder]

40. I don't understand. Are you saying that because prisoners are in

shitty conditions we shouldn’t allow them to vote? Or are you saying voting in prison can’t possibly be secure?

[Celerity]

46. non sequitur

I did not say, nor did I infer, either postulation.

Coercion was a reason what I did put forth, along with the just, legal loss of optionally acted-upon rights that comes, part and parcel, with being locked up and involuntarily removed from most all interactions and benefits associated with the outside society and commonweal.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

49. There are other "optionally acted-upon" rights that we don't take away from prisoners. Why voting?

And they are a part of society. They receive care from the state. The work they do benefits the state. They are citizens of the state. Why should they not vote?

[Celerity]

50. They ARE fundamentally removed from society in general, the franchise is one of those optional

rights (one of many) they forfeit when they are serving time apart from general society. If you choose to violate the laws that govern the society you live in, it is just that you do not get to exercise many of those rights society affords you when you choose to live in that society in a lawful manner. Humans who choose to violate societal criminal codes forfeit the right (whilst they are paying their dues to return to that society) to have input into that society on a political basis which they wilfully chose to no longer lawfully operate in.

[Uncle Joe]

55. Prisons are a direct reflection of a society's mores whether they be here

apartheid ruled South Africa or gulags in the communist Soviet Union.

[Celerity]

58. arguments as to whether a society's law codes are just or not is beyond the scope of my discussion

At some point one either accepts their inherent justness or works to undo them if they are not.

[thesquanderer]

73. re: "At some point one either accepts their inherent justness or works to undo them if they are not.

Right, and some people feel taking away inmates' right to vote is unjust, and so they may work to undo that... perhaps by starting conversations in public venues.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

59. .

If you choose to violate the laws that govern the society you live in, it is just that you do not get to exercise many of those rights society affords you when you choose to live in that society in a lawful manner.

Right. But why voting?

Humans who choose to violate societal criminal codes forfeit the right (whilst they are paying their dues to return to that society) to have input into that society on a political basis which they wilfully chose to no longer lawfully operate in.

There are many rights under the first amendment that incarcerated people are free to exercise that provide input into society on a political basis. Why not voting?

It's clear we're not going to change each other's minds, but I thank you for your efforts.

[rgbecker]

61. Voting: An optional Right! Give me a break.

How about the right to counsel. Optional?

Food and Water. Optional?

Tell me you for torture so I have a complete picture of what we are dealing with.

[Celerity]

62. if voting is not optional, explain our abysmal turnout rates

[rgbecker]

64. I believe you were suggesting that the "right" to vote, not voting itself was optional.

You stated "They ARE fundamentally removed from society in general, the franchise is one of those optional


rights (one of many) they forfeit when they are serving time apart from general society."

[Celerity]

67. optional as in you can chose to use the franchise or choose not to

[lapucelle]

4. Is BS aware that Vermont's incarcerated who have been shipped out to for-profit prisons

in Mississippi cannot vote? They are subject to the state laws where the for-profit prisons are located.

https://vtdigger.org/2018/11/30/vermonts-state-prisoners-settling-mississippi-facility/

https://vtdigger.org/2018/02/22/vermont-exit-prisoner-contract-camp-hill-due-severe-conditions/

https://vtdigger.org/2019/01/27/inside-prison-vermont-inmates-1366-miles/

[George II]

10. That's even worse than a state not allowing prisoners to vote, they live in a state where they can..

..vote so they get shipped to a state where they can't.

It also puts quite a damper on periodic family visits, doesn't it?

[lapucelle]

11. I wonder if BS is even aware of what's happening to some of his constituents. N/T

[Agschmid]

19. What is Warren doing to address the rapid rise in suicide in Mass. prisons?

Does she even know what’s happening to some of her constituents?

The answer is this isn’t a fair criticism of a federal representative, as they have little to no control over their state government.

[lapucelle]

20. It was BS who brought up the prison system in Vermont as an exemplar

of voting rights for the incarcerated. It's his policy position, and he should be prepared to discuss it and answer the hard questions.

BS was willing to get involved with Disney workers in FL and CA even though it had nothing to do with his job as a senator from VT. It's a shame that he's not fighting for the rights of VT's incarcerated.

[Agschmid]

22. I would argue he is getting involved, by stating his position.

[emulatorloo]

72. Whatabout is whatabout whatabouting about? It can get confusing.

What About 'Whataboutism'?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/whataboutism-origin-meaning

[Agschmid]

74. Thanks I'm aware.

But if you read my post fully I mentioned how the whole argument is flawed as well, so we agree.

[emulatorloo]

75. Yes we do agree, always enjoy your posts

Was joking around a bit. Whatabout can indeed get confusing to my tired brain ha ha.

[BlueFlorida]

44. That may be the idea

so they can vote against McConnell in Kentucky. In that case, it is brilliant.

[Uncle Joe]

15. 1. Bernie is not the governor of Vermont.

2. As of 2016 Vermont had the lowest incarceration rate of any state in the nation with only the District of Columbia having a lower rate.

(snip)

On January 1, 2008 more than 1 in 100 adults in the United States were in prison or jail.[7][8] Total US incarceration peaked in 2008.[1]

In addition to the overall highest incarceration rate, the United States also has the highest rate of female incarceration. According to a November 2017 report by the World Prison Brief around 212,000 of the 714,000 female prisoners worldwide (women and girls) are incarcerated in the United States.[9] In the United States in 2015, women made up 10.4% of the incarcerated population in adult prisons and jails.[10] In most countries, the proportion of female inmates to the larger prison population is closer to one in twenty. Australia is the exception where the rate of female imprisonment increased from 9.2 percent in 1991 to 15.3 percent in 1999.[11]

Comparing other English-speaking developed countries,[3] whereas the incarceration rate in the US is 660 per 100,000 population of all ages (as of 2016 table above),[1] the incarceration rate of Canada is 114 per 100,000 (as of 2015),[12] England and Wales is 146 per 100,000 (as of 2016),[13] and Australia is 160 per 100,000 (as of 2016).[14] Comparing other developed countries, the rate of Spain is 133 per 100,000 (as of 2016),[15] France is 110 per 100,000 (as of 2016),[16] Germany is 76 per 100,000 (as of 2016),[17] Norway is 73 per 100,000 (as of 2016),[18] Netherlands is 69 per 100,000 (as of 2014),[19] and Japan is 48 per 100,000 (as of 2014).[20]

In addition, the United States has striking statistics when observing the racial dimension of mass incarceration. According to Michelle Alexander, the United States "imprisons a larger percentage of its black population than South Africa did at the height of apartheid."[21]

Incarceration rate by state.[1]
Jurisdiction Yearend
2016. In
prison
or jail 2016
rate per
100,000
adults 2016
rate per
100,000
of all ages
US total 2,131,000 850 660
Federal 188,400 80 60
States, and
District of Columbia 1,942,600 780 600
Alabama 40,900 1,080 840
Alaska 4,400 800 600
Arizona 55,000 1,030 790
Arkansas 24,000 1,050 800
California 202,700 670 510
Colorado 32,100 740 580
Connecticut 15,000 530 420
Delaware 6,600 880 690
District of Columbia 1,800 320 270
Florida 149,800 900 720
Georgia 91,400 1,160 880
Hawaii 5,600 500 390
Idaho 11,300 900 670
Illinois 60,800 620 480
Indiana 43,200 850 650
Iowa 13,400 560 430
Kansas 17,200 780 590
Kentucky 34,700 1,010 780
Louisiana 45,400 1,270 970
Maine 4,100 380 300
Maryland 28,400 610 470
Massachusetts 19,400 360 280
Michigan 56,500 730 570
Minnesota 16,300 380 290
Mississippi 28,700 1,260 960
Missouri 44,300 940 730
Montana 5,700 700 550
Nebraska 8,800 610 460
Nevada 20,200 890 680
New Hampshire 4,500 410 330
New Jersey 32,000 460 360
New Mexico 14,700 930 710
New York 74,400 480 380
North Carolina 54,100 680 530
North Dakota 3,100 540 410
Ohio 71,000 790 610
Oklahoma 39,000 1,310 990
Oregon 20,700 640 500
Pennsylvania 82,400 810 640
Rhode Island 3,100 370 290
South Carolina 32,100 820 640
South Dakota 5,800 880 670
Tennessee 48,400 930 720
Texas 218,500 1,050 780
Utah 11,700 540 380
Vermont 1,700 340 280
Virginia 57,500 880 680
Washington 30,400 530 410
West Virginia 10,100 690 550
Wisconsin 35,600 790 620
Wyoming 3,900 870 660

(snip)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_incarceration_and_correctional_supervision_rate

[lapucelle]

16. BS is a senator from VT. If his reason for doing nothing is that he is powerless to help,

voters need to know that.

Latest Census figures show blacks make up a little more than 1 percent of the state’s population, but the report issued last week reveals that blacks made up 8.5 percent of Vermont’s prisoners.

That number compares to a 2016 national report based on 2014 numbers by the Sentencing Project that showed that blacks were incarcerated at a rate 10 times that of whites in Vermont.

https://vtdigger.org/2018/10/22/racial-disparity-vermont-prisons-little-changed-report-says/

Overall, Vermont has one of the lowest incarceration rates in the country — but one of the highest rates of African-American incarceration. So why is that?

snip=========================================

“Vermont … actually has the highest rate in the country of adult black male incarceration, and it has the third highest rate of incarceration for African-Americans overall,” Nellis says.

The third highest rate of incarceration for African-Americans in the country, according to Nellis' report. Vermont was just behind Wisconsin and Oklahoma. Here are some other ways to wrap your head around the numbers. You can compare Vermont to the rest of the country:

“Nationally the ratio is about five-to-one black-white incarceration. And in Vermont it's more than 10-to-one,” Nellis says. Or you can think in terms of our state’s population: “Only 1 percent of the population in Vermont is African-American but 11 percent of its prison population is black,” Nellis says

https://www.vpr.org/post/why-are-there-so-many-african-americans-incarcerated-vermont

[Uncle Joe]

18. If you believe Bernie has been doing nothing, then you seriously have not been paying attention.

Do you believe prisoners should retain their right to vote while incarcerated?

Do you believe we should end the so called "war on drugs?"

Do you believe we should invest in education and jobs versus incarceration?

Do you believe that private for profit prisons should be abolished?

Do you believe in racial/justice reform?

Bernie has strongly advocated in the affirmative for all of those issues.


Your last link is actually a pretty good in-depth analysis of the problem.

[lapucelle]

21. It's very reassuring that he's talking about stuff. N/T

[Celerity]

36. the absolute numbers you are dealing with make that a less powerful argument

I am an extremely harsh Sanders critic (go look at just my posts today) but this avenue of critique is weak.


As of 2016, there're only 1509 (1229 in prison, the rest jail) inmates under custody in Vermont (non Fed)

https://www.sentencingproject.org/the-facts/#map

If 11% are African-American (granted far too high compared to the % rate of white incarceration) you are talking about a very small number overall, 135 in prison, 31 in jail. Because those are such small numbers, the % could vary wildly with adding or subtracting just a few dozen from prison, and even 5 or 10 from or to jails.

228 (the private population listed above shrunk in the last two years) were just moved from PA to MS

https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/local/2018/02/22/state-wants-vermonts-inmates-out-camp-hill-pennsylvania/363478002/


Vermont's out-of-state inmates will move to a private Mississippi prison in October following months of criticism about the conditions prisoners faced at a state-run facility in Pennsylvania.

The new contract signed with CoreCivic, which operates Tallahatchie County Correctional Facility in Tutwiler, is for a two-year term with the option of one two-year extension. The Vermont Department of Corrections will have available 350 beds in the more than 2,600-bed facility, according to a news release issued by the department.

This move will affect the 228 Vermont inmates housed at SCI Camp Hill in Pennsylvania, where Department of Corrections' commissioners say they sent prisoners to avoid overcrowding in-state facilities.

[lapucelle]

42. I understand your point. However, those numbers represent 228 actual human beings.

They matter. Neither they nor their lives are disposable.

[Celerity]

47. Oh, yes, completely agree, and there is, I am sure, some element of systemic racism involved

It is just that the size of the sample is so wildly subject to fluctuation that I personally (you obviously do not have to buy into my reasoning) do not find it compelling as an effective yardstick with which to flog Sanders with. I am all ears for such dis-empowering (in terms of his gathering further electoral traction) avenues of critique. I just am a hard sell when it comes to such choices as to what to wield, as I generally play devil's advocate beforehand. In my mind, if the 'defensive' Celerity comes up with an argument that trumps (no pun intended) the aspirationally prosecutorial Celerity, I tend to discard it. Blame my obstinate nature on growing up with a barrister (amongst other things) for a mum.

[lapucelle]

51. Your point is well-taken.

[Celerity]

53. My father always says choose your battles with great care, but choose your sword even more so.

[ehrnst]

78. He's just so 'tuned in' to the POC in the very state he represents.

'We Find Ourselves Excluded': Racial Justice Leaders Ask Bernie Sanders 'To Get With The Program'

In an open letter to Sanders and an institute that now bears his name, more than a dozen racial and social justice advocates from across the state write that they’ve been “excluded” from the “national progressive movement that Senator Bernie Sanders is trying to foster.”

The flashpoint for this latest conflict between Sanders and prominent Vermonters of color came last week, when the Sanders Institute hosted a three-day “gathering” in Burlington that convened progressive luminaries from around the world.

Notably absent from the event, according to signatories of the open letter to Sanders, were the racial justice leaders from Vermont who have been working for decades on the civil rights issues the event sought to address.

“How do you say that you are a person of the people, how can you be ‘awoken’, in the words of Victor Lee Lewis, when you come home to Vermont to talk about justice and institutional oppression and don’t invite the very people you represent?” read the letter, which began circulating Saturday.

https://www.vpr.org/post/we-find-ourselves-excluded-racial-justice-leaders-ask-bernie-sanders-get-program#stream/0

[DoctorJoJo]

5. So What's Next? ALL the Bill of Rights? Freedom of Assembly, Right to Bear Arms, Etc.

I fully support restoration of voting rights once all debts to society are repaid, but for me, incarcerated prisoner voting is a total deal breaker. Bye Bye Bernie!

[WhiskeyGrinder]

6. Why do you think incarcerated people shouldn't vote?

[DoctorJoJo]

23. They Forfeited Lots of Constitutional Rights, Including Liberty and Happiness!

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. But not all. Why this one?

[True Dough]

26. Because 48 of 50 states agree on it

It's been that way for several centuries and it hasn't caused a crisis. Wanna vote? Stay the hell out of prison. Pretty simple concept. Your rights are restored when you complete your sentence.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

28. Lots of injustices can be undone, even after centuries.

Incarcerated people are still citizens. What do we lose if they vote? What do we gain?

[True Dough]

33. It's not about what we lose or gain, it's about their penalty for becoming felons

We want to achieve rehabilitation and reintegration, of course. And voting rights should be restored when time has been served. But while incarcerated you've forfeited your right to go home to your own comforts, to go to your workplace, to spend your days with family and to exercise your political franchise.

[thesquanderer]

71. Vermont has had the opposite for centuries, and it hasn't caused a crisis there, either. (n/t)

[George II]

14. Right to bear arms? Are you in favor of arming prisoners?

[DoctorJoJo]

24. Can You Read--I'm Saying They Forfeited These Rights, Including Liberty and Voting!

[thesquanderer]

70. There's an obvious reason prisoners can't be armed.

What is the obvious reason they shouldn't be able to vote? It doesn't impact people's safety. What is the purpose?

I think the default should be they have their usual rights unless there is a good rationale for taking them away, and I don't see the rationale here.

[thesquanderer]

69. With all the important issues, THIS is a deal breaker? Something not even under federal control!

I happen to agree with Bernie on this, but I'm still leaning toward Pete even though I disagree with him on this.

[WeekiWater]

7. I haven't seen where "facts" have been called into question. NT

[cwydro]

8. IMO, he still shot himself in the foot.

That’s not going to do him any favors.

[murielm99]

9. This is a side issue.

I wonder if BS had some ulterior motive in creating this shitstorm.

I only care about voting 45 out and keeping our democracy, which looks harder every day. We can worry about this other stuff later.

[JI7]

77. seems like it to me. glad buttigieg didn't fall for it

[Renew Deal]

12. Does Bernie support imprisoned child molesters voting?

[LongtimeAZDem]

29. Ads asking that question will make Willie Horton look like nothing

[Renew Deal]

38. I agree

They will die on a hill they created.

[peggysue2]

13. This is a losing position . . .

Period, full stop!

[UniteFightBack]

43. Seriously! Even if you believe it has merit like duh it is a LOSER! I really think Mr. Sanders

ego is just so large that he thinks that anything he says will land and that he can sell it. Every idea he has is just GRAND.

[peggysue2]

48. It borders on the absurd to attempt to legitimize . . .

a position like this when we are literally fighting for the life of the country and the Rule of Law. Sanders suggesting an issue that would be used as a cudgel against any Democratic nominee is positively insane under the circumstances.

Not well thought out! Like too many of these positions, frankly.

[Celerity]

52. beyond that, it is a foundational recipe for anarchy

If one breaks a societal law, legally encoded from a fundamentally democratic process and tradition (at a multiplicity of levels, both contemporaneous and historical) then one, whilst paying their lawfully imposed dues to society in order to return to said society, must be disallowed from affecting the electoral (and therefore potentially law making) processes. It is an a priori conflict of interest.

A fox that has killed a multitude of chickens in a hen house, should not, until it has served a due and just penalty (as defined by the hens themselves), get to vote on the rules that oversee the security of the very hen house they raided and committed 'crimes' in.

[peggysue2]

54. Very well said, Celerity

[bluedigger]

17. I suspected this was some post Reconstruction idea.

Thanks for the confirmation. I agree with Bernie, everybody who is a citizen should be able to vote. Even child molesters.

[UniteFightBack]

41. So child molesters should have other rights taken away but not their right to vote huh? Well why

stop there??????????

[Maven]

27. This is staggering political tone-deafness on Sanders' part.

Why did he even make this an issue?

[Kurt V.]

31. K&R

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

35. Sanders ALWAYS has his facts straight... so, no surprise there!!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[loyalsister]

37. People who are counted for the purpose of drawing political boundries

they should be able to vote. That includes prison inmates.

[ms liberty]

56. This. n/t

[Agschmid]

68. Yup.

[UniteFightBack]

39. WHY even bring this up for cripes sake? FOOLISH and he should let this go. I'm sure his aides were

HORRIFIED.

[BlueFlorida]

45. They are losing

"soccer moms" and mainstream people with this ultra left wing rhetoric.

I can see voting rights for DUI and drug offense felons but for terrorists, rapists and murderers? Hell no.

[AlexSFCA]

57. The question that murdered his candidacy

It will be remembered as such in history books. There are many rights in the constitution that don’t apply to convicted felons serving prison sentences - they lost those rights while retained citizenship. No one has cancelled common sense. I am ebarassesed for this man.

[Uncle Joe]

63. In one respect it was easier for Bernie,

Vermont has always allowed their prisoners to vote.

[Uncle Joe]

66. ...

Peace to you sfwriter.

[still_one]

76. From 2012, 31% of Americans endorse allowing people currently in prison to vote

https://scholars.org/brief/what-americans-believe-about-voting-rights-people-convicted-felony-crimes

Has that view changed?


I don't know, but making this an issue, out of all the issues we are dealing with at this critical time in our country, I suspect is not the highest priority for most Americans now