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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!
 

BooScout

(10,406 posts)
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 08:11 AM Apr 2019

Kate Manne on why female candidates get ruled "unelectable" so quickly

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/23/18512016/elizabeth-warren-electability-amy-klobuchar-2020-primary-female-candidates

<snip>
Ezra Klein
How is misogyny, as you define it, in evidence in the 2020 primary so far?

Kate Manne
Because I think of misogyny as a hostility women face, rather than a psychological property men feel, I think it’s been coming across pretty clearly in the population-level patterns of how much support female candidates are getting compared to white male candidates. It’s depressing watching the four Bs — Biden, Bernie, Beto, and Buttigieg — rise in the polls and generate enthusiasm beyond the substance that may be there while women trail behind them with no plausible explanation for why we see that striking pattern. It’s always possible it’s just due to the female candidates being less exciting, but I have a hard time believing it in this race.

<snip>
Ezra Klein
Do you see echoes of how Hillary Clinton was treated in how Elizabeth Warren has been treated, and the conversation over her “electability”? [Note: I had this conversation with Manne before the CNN town hall where Warren was asked if she was being “Hillaried.”]

Kate Manne
I’ve seen echoes. People always say they want substance, but when it’s a woman bringing it, it seems unexciting. My worry is electability is a smokescreen for for this sadly common thing, which is not wanting to support a female candidate. It seems to me that the “she’s not electable” excuse could be just that, an excuse.

More ~ https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/23/18512016/elizabeth-warren-electability-amy-klobuchar-2020-primary-female-candidates
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
34 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Kate Manne on why female candidates get ruled "unelectable" so quickly (Original Post) BooScout Apr 2019 OP
But nobody had a problem with the term when it was Hillary leftofcool Apr 2019 #1
I mean...she wasn't elected... TCJ70 Apr 2019 #5
Actually, she WAS elected. By more than 3 million votes. n/t TygrBright Apr 2019 #6
There IS that. calimary Apr 2019 #17
No...she wasn't elected, maddiemom Apr 2019 #8
"unelectable" is a far stronger term than merely "isn't favorite to win" unblock Apr 2019 #16
Hillary Clinton was "unelectable" for other reasons. MH1 Apr 2019 #10
Patriarchy is still so prevalent in our country. Funtatlaguy Apr 2019 #2
Here's Ezra Klein standing up for Elizabeth!.. Cha Apr 2019 #3
The undergraduate who asked Bernie that question had to comradebillyboy Apr 2019 #22
That's horrible and totally Cha Apr 2019 #23
Could be? 2naSalit Apr 2019 #4
Wait...... what???? DemocracyMouse Apr 2019 #7
And yet, how much time Skidmore Apr 2019 #9
But "the media" is us! DemocracyMouse Apr 2019 #13
Looking back, PatSeg Apr 2019 #11
Not true about Hillary. Before she had good approval ratings she was disliked Pisces Apr 2019 #30
When she was Secretary of State PatSeg Apr 2019 #31
I always thought she was the most qualified. I felt she always lacked authenticity. Trying to be to Pisces Apr 2019 #33
I felt like PatSeg Apr 2019 #34
This is making me so angry mcar Apr 2019 #12
And how long did the media PatSeg Apr 2019 #32
The bottom line is don't nominate a woman as she will surely Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #14
It's an excuse? uberblonde Apr 2019 #15
Let's not jump to conclusions and keep an open mind. BarbD Apr 2019 #18
So we should just smile & ignore the elephant in the room? BooScout Apr 2019 #19
It's not a question of ignoring the "elephant". BarbD Apr 2019 #20
We do that... BooScout Apr 2019 #21
No. I'm not saying to smile and be quiet. BarbD Apr 2019 #24
I am positive... BooScout Apr 2019 #25
Ahh -- the problems of communication with just words. BarbD Apr 2019 #26
Exactly Pisces Apr 2019 #29
This is truly depressing. spicysista Apr 2019 #27
I am a woman and I don't agree. Just like Obama the first female Pisces Apr 2019 #28
 

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
1. But nobody had a problem with the term when it was Hillary
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 08:14 AM
Apr 2019

How many times did we hear it right here on DU...………."she's unelectable, she's unelectable"

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
5. I mean...she wasn't elected...
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 09:23 AM
Apr 2019

...so she kind of earned that title after the fact. But let's not act like that's unique to Clinton. How many times did we hear "I like Bernie's policies but I'm voting for a winner (Clinton)"? It's not like unelectable is a word uniquely applied to women.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

TygrBright

(20,733 posts)
6. Actually, she WAS elected. By more than 3 million votes. n/t
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 09:41 AM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

calimary

(80,699 posts)
17. There IS that.
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 10:52 AM
Apr 2019

The numbers don’t lie.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

maddiemom

(5,106 posts)
8. No...she wasn't elected,
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 09:43 AM
Apr 2019

BUT it's simplistic to say she "kind of earned that title" (whatever you mean by "after the fact&quot .

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

unblock

(51,974 posts)
16. "unelectable" is a far stronger term than merely "isn't favorite to win"
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 10:33 AM
Apr 2019

hillary's technical loss while winning a majority of the votes, actually proved quite definitively that she *was* electable.

she happened to have lost, but certainly any of a number of factors could have led to her winning, with comey's crap high up on that list.

her performance certainly showed that, while women face an uphill battle, a woman could very well win a presidential election down the road.

the title she earned "after the fact" may be "unelected", but certainly is not "unelectable".

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MH1

(17,537 posts)
10. Hillary Clinton was "unelectable" for other reasons.
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 09:54 AM
Apr 2019

30 years of smears, for one.

People wanted to pretend that none of that meant anything.

Just like they want to pretend that "socialist" won't mean anything for Sanders in the GE.

Or that "gay" won't mean anything for Buttigieg in the GE.

And yes, some still want to pretend that being female isn't a problem in the GE. I actually think Hillary might have done it except for a few (individually minor) campaign mistakes, and opposition shenanigans (including Russian interference in whatever forms). But being female is definitely a hurdle to overcome in this culture.

The sad thing is that there were (are) plenty of things that should mean a lot against Trump. But here we are. It's a big tell about the electorate, though. If we are to make progress, we have to first win - with that electorate.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Funtatlaguy

(10,856 posts)
2. Patriarchy is still so prevalent in our country.
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 08:21 AM
Apr 2019

But, on the other hand, I try to remind myself that a woman got three million more votes in 2016.
So, there is hope.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cha

(295,925 posts)
3. Here's Ezra Klein standing up for Elizabeth!..
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 08:25 AM
Apr 2019


Thanks, Boo
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

comradebillyboy

(10,119 posts)
22. The undergraduate who asked Bernie that question had to
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 11:22 AM
Apr 2019

fend off the hoards of BS supporters that descended on her twitter account. It take a lot of courage for a young woman to ask Bernie a hard question knowing the stream of abuse that ensues.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cha

(295,925 posts)
23. That's horrible and totally
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 11:31 AM
Apr 2019

expected.

They are their own worst enemies

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

2naSalit

(86,061 posts)
4. Could be?
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 09:09 AM
Apr 2019

I have no doubt about it myself. It's pretty obvious if you're a woman, but they're not supposed to say anything about it.

In the primaries, I'm not voting for any white man. Probably not gonna vote for a man.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

DemocracyMouse

(2,275 posts)
7. Wait...... what????
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 09:42 AM
Apr 2019

I decided Warren was pretty amazing years ago and put "WARREN FOR PRESIDENT" on my car bumper. Made the sign with magic markers. As a white man, I didn't think about her gender or her race, but that she was so damn sharp, and friggin CARED about democracy, human rights and the grotesque inequality chewing up the first two.

So now on this thread everyone is drawing attention to her gender and NOT going into her beautiful history of fighting for the people.

Stop watering down my candidate and reducing her and Kamala, another fantastic candidate, to this hand-wringing sideshow! I'm sorry to say this because it undermines the narrative some here want to maintain: some white men aren't horned beasts. We share 99% of the DNA with women. We're all human with a tiny variation of chromosomes to ensure that evolution through sexual reproduction actually works.

But if you're gonna make statements like this below, which is patently sexist and offensive, then you are indermining your own human rights cause and YOU are deflecting attention away from Warren's and Harris' policies and onto something superficial:

"In the primaries, I'm not voting for any white man. Probably not gonna vote for a man."

Let's be better than this.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Skidmore

(37,364 posts)
9. And yet, how much time
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 09:47 AM
Apr 2019

does media give her or any of the women candidates versus the males? Something yo be considered.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

DemocracyMouse

(2,275 posts)
13. But "the media" is us!
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 10:08 AM
Apr 2019

Yes, there is grotesque sexism in the media, but I saw tons of coverage of Warren and Harris awhile back. The fresh faces are always given new attention. We're already seeing a drop off on Beto coverage... and if a person's minority status is the subject here.... why hasn't anyone cheered on Buttigieg for breaking through the nation's LGBTQ prejudices? That's pretty awesome. Give the man some credit. Goddess knows that there is a 5-10 minority in our country that craves a breakthrough like that. And his success should be seen as part of the civil rights movement, not competition.

We are the media too. We must promote our candidates based on their competence (Warren!) and their policies (Warren!) and their dynamism (Warren!) and their captivating way of sticking it to corporate interests (Warren, Warren, Warren). If she weren't running, my choice would be Bernie Sanders – because he has been the die-hard model for (traditional) progressives like Warren and Harris and Buttigieg. We need good, dynamic, TRADITIONAL Democrats (i.e. NEW DEAL like FDR). It's not about Warren's chromosomes that I love her as a candidate.

Yes, there's sexism in the media, but let's keep promoting our candidates for their substance. Let's lead by example. How many of us are fighting for our candidates with a large, handmade, across-the-bumper, sign? (People pay attention to such things on the highway... it works!) How are WE promoting our candidates for their ideas, not their gender? Yes, there are some in the media who are brainlessly substituting gender and skin color for substance. But WE should lead by example.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

PatSeg

(46,804 posts)
11. Looking back,
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 09:56 AM
Apr 2019

it seems that smart, dynamic women get a lot of attention until they actually run for president. Hillary Clinton, the most admired woman in the world, had incredible approval ratings, until she became a presidential candidate. Then she was attacked from all sides, including the media, well except when she was totally ignored by the press in favor of Trump.

Harris, Klobuchar, and Warren were viewed as very viable candidates until they actually became candidates, then they magically became invisible, except for the occasional mini "scandal" or Trump put-down. I suppose Trump is actually doing them a favor with his nasty Tweets, because that is often the only way they will get any press.

Now we hear how we as a society are much more evolved, because a gay man is actually being considered by mainstream voters for President of the United States. Yes, that is a big leap forward and we have come a long way, but are we being told that only a white male need apply for the position?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Pisces

(5,592 posts)
30. Not true about Hillary. Before she had good approval ratings she was disliked
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 02:51 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

PatSeg

(46,804 posts)
31. When she was Secretary of State
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 06:12 PM
Apr 2019

she was quite popular with most people, including the media. When she ran for president in 2016, the slurs and mud slinging began again, even worse than 2008. I know there were always people who disliked her, but it was always worse during a presidential campaign. Looking back, I can see much of the dislike was fueled by the media, as well as the republicans.

I know that I started disliking her for awhile, but realized much of that was media driven, plus the fact that she had become so careful and scripted after years to assaults from the MSM and conservatives.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Pisces

(5,592 posts)
33. I always thought she was the most qualified. I felt she always lacked authenticity. Trying to be to
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 08:19 PM
Apr 2019

Many things for too many people. The Russians and media did a number on her.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

PatSeg

(46,804 posts)
34. I felt like
Thu Apr 25, 2019, 10:08 AM
Apr 2019

as a candidate, she was overly managed and was listening to too many political advisers, instead of trusting her own instincts. This was especially true in 2008, when Mark Penn was her chief campaign strategist. You could practically hear him whispering in her ear, as she tried to be too many different people, but rarely herself.

She was much better in 2016, but by then, the public's perception of her was established and the media was relentless and unforgiving. I often wished the Hillary from the early 1990s could resurface. She was more open and engaging, but unfortunately that was the Hillary that got attacked by the right and the press for years. I think her first sin was being a smart, outspoken woman in a man's world of politics. That said, she definitely DID put cracks in that glass ceiling for those who follow her.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

mcar

(42,210 posts)
12. This is making me so angry
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 10:04 AM
Apr 2019

Things never change. Mostly men, mostly white, media types going on and on about the white men running and virtually ignoring the women and men of color.

When they do write about them, it's all about whether they are likeable, or too prepared, or aggressive, etc., etc.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

PatSeg

(46,804 posts)
32. And how long did the media
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 06:13 PM
Apr 2019

drag out that Trump driven Native American story? With all the things going on in the world, somehow they deemed that a credible news story.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
14. The bottom line is don't nominate a woman as she will surely
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 10:15 AM
Apr 2019

lose a general...heartbreaking.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

uberblonde

(1,215 posts)
15. It's an excuse?
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 10:23 AM
Apr 2019

How about all these "concerned" people start attacking the men (yes, even Democratic men) who CONSISTENTLY show a gender gap in voting for women?

How about you lecture the sexist men to put on their big-boy pants and acknowledge they have a problem?

Stop making it seem like any women who see the institutional obstacles are just "making excuses."

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BarbD

(1,191 posts)
18. Let's not jump to conclusions and keep an open mind.
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 10:59 AM
Apr 2019

This is like going to a fine restaurant and trying to make decisions from an excellent menu. Given so many delicious choices, I usually begin by process of elimination.

Let's not immediately get defensive. Time to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative and don't mess with Mr. Inbetween.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BooScout

(10,406 posts)
19. So we should just smile & ignore the elephant in the room?
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 11:01 AM
Apr 2019

Alrighty then. *sigh*

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BarbD

(1,191 posts)
20. It's not a question of ignoring the "elephant".
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 11:06 AM
Apr 2019

It's a strategy of emphasizing our strengths.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BooScout

(10,406 posts)
21. We do that...
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 11:21 AM
Apr 2019

And I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and watch women again be told to smile and be quiet. Sheesh. SMH

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BarbD

(1,191 posts)
24. No. I'm not saying to smile and be quiet.
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 11:36 AM
Apr 2019

I fought the glass ceiling in the corporate world, the social stigma of a single mom and ended up being successful. I smiled but I didn't keep quiet. Billy Jean King and Shirley Chisholm were my heroines. I learned from them. Stay in the moment. Keep positive and never ever give up the fight.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BooScout

(10,406 posts)
25. I am positive...
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 11:38 AM
Apr 2019

But I don't think you realize how your message is coming off. Essentially you're telling us to smile and ignore it. Not. Going. To. Happen.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BarbD

(1,191 posts)
26. Ahh -- the problems of communication with just words.
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 11:45 AM
Apr 2019

If we could meet face to face. I know we would understand what each of us were saying.

It's not a question of ignoring the unfortunate reality of women's "place" in our society. It's being aware of the problem, acknowledging its existence, but not being overwhelmed by it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
27. This is truly depressing.
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 11:46 AM
Apr 2019

There is good news. Since we don't have a "winner take all" system, there is hope that a female with consistent support can still have a chance once we get to the more diverse primaries.
However, there is definitely a glaring pattern.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Pisces

(5,592 posts)
28. I am a woman and I don't agree. Just like Obama the first female
Wed Apr 24, 2019, 02:30 PM
Apr 2019

President will have to be better. End of story. When you are the first you have to be the best. And if that means you have to be more exciting then you need to prepare for that! Of all the women running only Kamala has shown gravitas and some excitement. Warren has great policy but terrible delivery and zero command presence.
Gilibrand is too defensive and doesn’t connect. Klobachar is very boring. Are they all qualified YES! But it takes more than that to get elected and even more to be the first. I don’t like that we are giving them excuses for not doing well. Barack was black with a middle eastern name. He had to be the best and all the stars and moons needed to align. The same thing for a women. If they didn’t know this then they don’t deserve to be the first woman President. Nothing is fair in life and the fact that we have a chauvinistic society is not news to anybody, the question is how are you prepared to overcome it. Just like Barack had to be prepared to overcome racism.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
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