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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:46 PM Apr 2019

I was manipulated by the Russians, and we must assume everyone was.

Last edited Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:04 PM - Edit history (1)

After reading the Mueller report it's clear that Hillary and Bernie supporters were pitted against each other on purpose in 2016 in order to elect Trump and we need to recognize this. After the 2016 elections I deleted my Facebook account and limited my social media to creating book reviews on Instagram. I'm wary to be on the internet in a political context and my trust in online news sources started on this very website. I think everyone should be on high alert while being on the internet in a political context because there is no stopping the Russians from manipulating again in 2020. I'm hoping 2016 was a vaccine and we know what to do and what to look for, but we're at risk of it being a true illness that we can't shake off.

These are rules that I personally go by now:

1. SLOW DOWN to fact check. The information age gives you 20 facts a day but the other 19 facts can wait their turn. Categorize by importance first. If there is an original source, read that.
2. Avoid and don't trust political internet memes altogether. Same with short YouTube videos since those can give false context. Only trust full unedited videos.
3. Go to candidates websites for their platforms, do not let others tell you what they are. Try to establish voting records yourself, don't let others tell you what they are.
4. Support Journalists. Buy and read your news offline.
6. Don't limit who you talk to, break bubbles. With the exception of if you feel unsafe doing so.
7. But most importantly slow down. You do not have to know 5 new things before breakfast!

I hope others have made their own precautions since the 2016 election as well. We must look at how we want the same things.

Edit: okay if you don't want to be open to the possibility that you were manipulated, go at it. But that leaves you open to thinking you can't ever be manipulated. Please take precautions regardless.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
133 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I was manipulated by the Russians, and we must assume everyone was. (Original Post) Neoma Apr 2019 OP
I haven't seen any evidence that HRC's supporters were manipulated/targeted by the Russian lapucelle Apr 2019 #1
I found the Mueller report on the CNN site. Neoma Apr 2019 #3
So did I. There's no evidence in the report that Clinton supporters were targeted by disinformation. lapucelle Apr 2019 #7
Who says it was by disinformation? Neoma Apr 2019 #10
Oh brother! NurseJackie Apr 2019 #12
They worked on existing divisions. Neoma Apr 2019 #15
Bernie's supporters are responsible for their own decisions and emotions... NurseJackie Apr 2019 #29
Okay whatever. This discussion divides. Neoma Apr 2019 #31
Here's what I'm 100% sure of: People who behave in an immature way are the ones who are most likely... NurseJackie Apr 2019 #37
I honestly didn't get involved in a lot of the infighting that happened here. Neoma Apr 2019 #38
... they're also who are equally likely to want to blame others (like "Russian Interference"... progressoid Apr 2019 #110
... NurseJackie Apr 2019 #114
Gee, I don't think you should laugh at Senator Clinton. progressoid Apr 2019 #118
... NurseJackie Apr 2019 #121
"Senator Mark Warner summed it up well: 'The Russians employed thousands of paid internet trolls betsuni Apr 2019 #123
+1000. (nt) ehrnst Apr 2019 #129
Well, there you go, NJ ... that's how RU would want you to feel and think ... Naoma's point I think. mr_lebowski Apr 2019 #36
LOL! NurseJackie Apr 2019 #40
Laugh all you want ... people who MOST think they're too smart to be manipulated by propaganda mr_lebowski Apr 2019 #53
I'm perfectly capable of rejecting someone's bad behavior without being told by Russia to do so. NurseJackie Apr 2019 #65
I completely understand your point, Jackie. But we're arguing 2 separate things ... mr_lebowski Apr 2019 #81
Everyone is responsible for their own decisions and emotions. better Apr 2019 #85
can assure you that my standards of what passes for acceptable behavior were in place and well... NurseJackie Apr 2019 #99
That was a well thought out post, Nurse Jackie! True Blue American Apr 2019 #102
Thanks. NurseJackie Apr 2019 #109
No. The best way, and what happened, was for Russian trolls mcar Apr 2019 #55
True. That probably did happen! Neoma Apr 2019 #56
What were they, children, or intelligent and mature adults who wanted what was best for the country? lunamagica Apr 2019 #119
The entire premise is just more woe about 2016 BannonsLiver Apr 2019 #19
Yes, that was sad. Neoma Apr 2019 #26
Yes, the general election outcome was sad BannonsLiver Apr 2019 #32
Ok? Neoma Apr 2019 #33
Oh I'm not saying you do BannonsLiver Apr 2019 #35
I just want people to be careful this next election. Neoma Apr 2019 #41
Exactly. Yes. Thank you! NurseJackie Apr 2019 #30
Why did you read political posts on Facebook? I didn't. brooklynite Apr 2019 #104
That didn't happen to me. I stay away from social media. And that didn't happen in the GE campaign. lapucelle Apr 2019 #16
You're on this -online- political forum. Neoma Apr 2019 #21
There are administrators here, and it's not where I get my news. lapucelle Apr 2019 #72
Give me a frigging break! We supported Hillary we didn't push against Bernie supporters. At DU wasupaloopa Apr 2019 #94
Everyone was targeted with disinformation. LakeArenal Apr 2019 #39
Yes. And the ones that were less insane but equally untrue ... MaryMagdaline Apr 2019 #83
And add the Seth Rich Conspiracy. We now know it was based on one of Assange's many lies. JHan Apr 2019 #117
Absolutely! The worst of the worst MaryMagdaline Apr 2019 #127
I do remember back during artislife Apr 2019 #24
Trump's campaign seemed to know. Neoma Apr 2019 #43
Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at here. lapucelle Apr 2019 #45
First link is to Wiki artislife Apr 2019 #54
Is there a point to this? lapucelle Apr 2019 #57
Post removed Post removed Apr 2019 #60
I get it...you see some kind of apocryphal nefarious connection lapucelle Apr 2019 #69
Post removed Post removed Apr 2019 #70
Another white flag of surrender, eh? BannonsLiver Apr 2019 #100
We weren't. Hillary warned us and we accpeted that warning. leftofcool Apr 2019 #49
Just because you were sucessfully manipulated doesn't mean all of us were comradebillyboy Apr 2019 #2
Uh huh. Neoma Apr 2019 #8
Both sides, eh? comradebillyboy Apr 2019 #9
Ensuring that Clinton supporters were openly and continually hostile toward Sanders supporters Bettie Apr 2019 #22
And it's still ongoing Lazy Daisy Apr 2019 #115
So that's what the OP is REALLY about. BannonsLiver Apr 2019 #13
It's really a warning and a call to unify. Neoma Apr 2019 #14
Correct. Unify. Sa positive things about YOUR candidate. sharedvalues Apr 2019 #17
My Candidate in 2016 was Bernie Sanders. Was. Neoma Apr 2019 #18
Right, so say good things about the candidates you like today! sharedvalues Apr 2019 #23
I'm unsure. Neoma Apr 2019 #25
"Just because you were sucessfully manipulated doesn't mean all of us were." LenaBaby61 Apr 2019 #34
And just because we weren't successfully manipulated last time doesn't mean we can't be this time. better Apr 2019 #96
Thank you. Neoma Apr 2019 #111
This message was self-deleted by its author Skittles Apr 2019 #101
I was manipulated by no one. CentralMass Apr 2019 #4
Good, common sense post. Especially about slowing down - don't feed the beast. Thank you. yonder Apr 2019 #5
What exactly (memes, videos, or articles) manipulated you? aikoaiko Apr 2019 #6
That's exactly how Russian propaganda works. marylandblue Apr 2019 #11
Right, but people are acting like the divisions didn't exist a priori... aikoaiko Apr 2019 #20
Well I agree with you there. We don't know what would have happened without the Russians marylandblue Apr 2019 #89
that's why the russians got trump to study talk radio in 2014 and their trolling ops certainot Apr 2019 #84
That's a GREAT response. better Apr 2019 #98
Unfortunately I cannot undelete my account to show you. Neoma Apr 2019 #58
This was obvious to some of us. Cary Apr 2019 #27
Thanks for this. Good advice given, imo. And these things bring out the usual suspects. Always theophilus Apr 2019 #28
I was not manipulated and I don't believe most Hillary voters were. nt Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #42
Ok. Neoma Apr 2019 #47
Why do you think I need to take precautions? leftofcool Apr 2019 #52
I don't need to take precautions. I'm a black, female, senior citizen.. Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #67
The Russians infiltrated black lives matters. Neoma Apr 2019 #68
I know they did. But they didn't get to me. 94% of black female voters voted for HRC. Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #71
I was not manipulated by Russians, and there are many more on DU who weren't, either. ehrnst Apr 2019 #44
Okay! Neoma Apr 2019 #46
Resistance to Active Measures and Propaganda: "The Disruptors" - Motto: "Think For Yourself" Celerity Apr 2019 #112
Good stuff. Neoma Apr 2019 #113
Yes, the same ones that worked for me before. ehrnst Apr 2019 #125
Thank you. Neoma Apr 2019 #126
Thanks. Good info The Mouth Apr 2019 #133
Twilight Zone's The Monsters are Due on Maple Street andym Apr 2019 #48
yes. the space between stimuli and response is where true freedom and wisdom lie prodigitalson Apr 2019 #50
#2 & #7 Hell Yes! Agschmid Apr 2019 #51
Youtube videos were the worst sort of manipulation. Neoma Apr 2019 #61
Great rules for voters because those who did this last time weren't fooled. Hortensis Apr 2019 #59
You tried artislife Apr 2019 #62
Is there? Neoma Apr 2019 #64
Gird your loins. nt artislife Apr 2019 #66
Good advice for any voter, a welcome post! marble falls Apr 2019 #63
Russia sure as hell doesn't want impeachment--remember that Ponietz Apr 2019 #73
Yes, that is a good point. Neoma Apr 2019 #92
Good post MaryMagdaline Apr 2019 #74
It's easier to con someone sop Apr 2019 #77
And now I'm fully realizing that. Neoma Apr 2019 #79
Very true! MaryMagdaline Apr 2019 #86
The Russians call it "Reflexive Control" sop Apr 2019 #122
Not everyone was manipulated. Everyone saw information designed MineralMan Apr 2019 #75
Thanks for this. Gore1FL Apr 2019 #76
Yes, part of my point was to heal from 2016 or get manipulated by those old wounds. Neoma Apr 2019 #78
!!! nt artislife Apr 2019 #88
I don't see how deleting Facebook or Twitter helps. Awareness is what's important. pnwmom Apr 2019 #80
There was more than one reason. Neoma Apr 2019 #82
knr Baltimike Apr 2019 #87
I voted for Bernie in the primary and Hillary in November. It was easy. Marcuse Apr 2019 #90
Good, good. Neoma Apr 2019 #91
geez!! Locrian Apr 2019 #93
I take your comments as a cautionary tale peggysue2 Apr 2019 #95
Certainly if you took these precautions before, there was some immunity. Neoma Apr 2019 #97
I don't think there's any question that some reporters within the MSM were influenced . . . peggysue2 Apr 2019 #105
Did they really all act that way? Neoma Apr 2019 #106
I check in on this board multiple times a day but I also . . . peggysue2 Apr 2019 #107
? I said if I was one. Neoma Apr 2019 #108
I am 100% positive that I was not manipulated. nt BlueFlorida Apr 2019 #103
I noticed the fake news starting after the Snowden incident. betsuni Apr 2019 #116
I supported Hillary but would have glady voted and supported Bernie had he won the nomination. Kaleva Apr 2019 #120
Every day duforsure Apr 2019 #124
Why should we assume everyone was when the manipulation was targeted? WeekiWater Apr 2019 #128
Good question, WeekiWater peggysue2 Apr 2019 #132
I understand OP Apple Fritter Apr 2019 #130
Yes, you make a good point there. Neoma Apr 2019 #131
 

lapucelle

(18,040 posts)
1. I haven't seen any evidence that HRC's supporters were manipulated/targeted by the Russian
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:51 PM
Apr 2019

disinformation campaign. Do you have links?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
3. I found the Mueller report on the CNN site.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:52 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

lapucelle

(18,040 posts)
7. So did I. There's no evidence in the report that Clinton supporters were targeted by disinformation.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:55 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
10. Who says it was by disinformation?
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:57 PM
Apr 2019

All they had to do was get you to push against Bernie supporters as HARD as they could so they would not feel welcome in the party.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
12. Oh brother!
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:02 PM
Apr 2019
All they had to do was get you to push against Bernie supporters as HARD as they could so they would not feel welcome in the party.
Oh brother!
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
15. They worked on existing divisions.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:06 PM
Apr 2019

After Bernie lost there was a HUGE push for them to either not vote, vote third party or vote for Trump. I saw this. The best way was to make sure Hillary supporters did not welcome them with open arms.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
29. Bernie's supporters are responsible for their own decisions and emotions...
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:24 PM
Apr 2019
to make sure Hillary supporters did not welcome them with open arms.
Oh no! Hillary supporters didn't "welcome them with open arms"??? OMG! The horror!

Responsible and mature adults need to made responsible and mature decisions. Bernie's supporters are responsible for their own choices... it's not up to me to soothe disappointments or hurt feelings. These are ADULTS we're talking about... they're perfectly capable of dealing with their emotions.

The point is this: nobody needs to be coddled or treated like children after their candidate loses the primary.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
31. Okay whatever. This discussion divides.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:28 PM
Apr 2019

You can feel secure that you weren't manipulated in ANY way last election.

But you simply aren't 100% immune from Russian interference in the future and that's why I want people to be careful.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
37. Here's what I'm 100% sure of: People who behave in an immature way are the ones who are most likely...
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:36 PM
Apr 2019
But you simply aren't 100% immune from Russian interference in the future and that's why I want people to be careful.
Here's what I'm 100% sure of: People who behave in an immature way are the ones who are most likely to be unable (or unwilling) to accept personal responsibility for their choices.

And in my opinion, they're also who are equally likely to want to blame others (like "Russian Interference" for example) for the fact that their bad behavior (anger and poor attitude) was universally rejected by everyone else.

That's all I'm saying. People just need to accept personal responsibility and stop trying to blame others. I think everyone can agree on that, can't we?



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
38. I honestly didn't get involved in a lot of the infighting that happened here.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:40 PM
Apr 2019

What I saw was just general toxicity and I stayed away from DU and slipped into Facebook. That wasn't a good thing and I fully recognize that.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

progressoid

(49,827 posts)
110. ... they're also who are equally likely to want to blame others (like "Russian Interference"...
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 08:42 PM
Apr 2019

Golly, who else blamed Russian interference...
hmmm...
what was her name...
she wrote a book about it...


Oh, yeah. Senator Clinton.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

progressoid

(49,827 posts)
118. Gee, I don't think you should laugh at Senator Clinton.
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 01:24 AM
Apr 2019

You posted that, "People just need to accept personal responsibility and stop trying to blame others."

But I think we can give Hillary a little slack here, don't you? Does she really need to accept personal responsibility for this? If you've read her book, you'd know that this Russian meddling thing was really eating her up.

That's all I'm saying.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
121. ...
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 07:11 AM
Apr 2019
Gee, I don't think you should laugh at Senator Clinton.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

betsuni

(25,138 posts)
123. "Senator Mark Warner summed it up well: 'The Russians employed thousands of paid internet trolls
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 07:44 AM
Apr 2019

and botnets to push out disinformation and fake news at a high volume, focusing this material onto your Twitter and Facebook feeds and flooding our social media with misinformation,' he said. 'This fake news and disinformation was then hyped by the American media echo chamber and our own social media to reach and potentially influence millions of Americans.' ... According to Time magazine, the Russians targeted propaganda to undecided voters and to 'soft' Clinton supporters who might be persuaded to stay home or support a third-party candidate ... . ... We know the swing voters were inundated. According to Senator Warner, 'Women and African Americans were targeted in places like Wisconsin and Michigan.' One study found that in Michigan alone, nearly half of all political news on Twitter in the final days before the election was false or misleading propaganda. Senator Warren has rightly asked, 'How did they know to go to that level of detail in those kinds of jurisdictions?'

"Interestingly, the Russians made a particular effort to target voters who had supported Bernie Sanders in the primaries, including by planting fake news on pro-Sanders message boards and Facebook groups and amplifying attacks by so-called Bernie Bros. Russian trolls posted stories about how I was a murderer, money launderer, and secretly had Parkinson's disease. I don't know why anyone would believe such things, even if you read it on Facebook ... but if you're angry enough, you'll accept anything that reinforces your point of view. As the former head of the NSA, retired General Keith Alexander, explained to Congress, the Russian goal was clear: 'What they were trying to do is drive a wedge within the Democratic Party between the Clinton group and the Sanders group and then within our nation between Republicans and Democrats.' Perhaps this is one reason why third-party candidates received more than five million more votes in 2016 than they had in 2012. That was an aim of both the Russians and the Republicans, and it worked."

Hillary Clinton, "What Happened."

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
36. Well, there you go, NJ ... that's how RU would want you to feel and think ... Naoma's point I think.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:35 PM
Apr 2019

Convincing you to have that EXACT ATTITUDE you're displaying ... would be their goal.

I'm not sayin 'they convinced you', but that would be their angle to convince SOME ... to think ... just like you're expressing.

Not saying your point is 'incorrect', to be clear.

But that is EXACTLY how 'division' ... works.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
53. Laugh all you want ... people who MOST think they're too smart to be manipulated by propaganda
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:05 PM
Apr 2019

Sometimes make the very best targets. Because once they've been manipulated, they argue in the MOST assured manner possible ...

By all means, go ahead and laugh again.

NOBODY thinks they can be manipulated. I mean literally nobody.

Yet advertisers spend Trillion$ ... worldwide ... every year ... proving that idea false, my friend.

Think about it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
65. I'm perfectly capable of rejecting someone's bad behavior without being told by Russia to do so.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:19 PM
Apr 2019
people who MOST think they're too smart to be manipulated by propaganda
I'm perfectly capable of rejecting someone's bad behavior without being told by Russia to do so. I know what I saw.

By all means, go ahead and laugh again.


I said this to another poster: People who behave in an immature way are the ones who are most likely to be unable (or unwilling) to accept personal responsibility for their choices.

And in my opinion, they're also who are equally likely to want to blame others (like "Russian Interference" for example) for the fact that their bad behavior (hostility, violence, anger and poor attitude) was universally rejected by everyone else.

That's all I'm saying. People just need to accept personal responsibility and stop trying to blame others. I think everyone can agree on that, can't we?

Think about it.
Okay, I did. And I completely reject it as being an overly simplified (and wrong) way for some individuals to abandon responsibility, and to instead blame others for rightfully rejecting hostility, anger and violence and other anti-social and aggressive behavior.

I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but nobody gets a "free pass" by retroactively trying to "blame Russia" for the fact that perfectly reasonable, mature and civilized people REJECT and CONDEMN those who behave badly.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
81. I completely understand your point, Jackie. But we're arguing 2 separate things ...
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:59 PM
Apr 2019

Probably THE most obvious angles Russia could've taken (to help Trump) were:
1) Convince Bernie supporters their guy got f***ed by Hillary (as evidenced by the DNC drops on Wikileaks, plus massive BS social media propaganda), and
2) Convince Hillary supporters Bernie's people were acting like a buncha spoil-sport children who didn't get their way, and hope they treat Bernie supporters poorly because of it.

Goal being, put them at odds with other, get Bernie voters to NOT show up to vote for Hillary. Both 1, and 2 ... help accomplish that.

Now, you may've completely came up with 2) all on your own, just cause that's how you think. But it doesn't mean they didn't TRY with other Hillary supporters, doesn't mean it doesn't make perfect sense as an 'angle' if you're trying to manipulate.

And if a Hillary supporter DID go about their business in Aug-Nov 2016 ... doing what Russia were hoping, regardless of whether they came up with that idea entirely on their own or not ... did they really 'win' in any sense?

I would ask them if 'being in the right' ... was really worth it?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

better

(884 posts)
85. Everyone is responsible for their own decisions and emotions.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:11 PM
Apr 2019

It does not follow, however, that anyone reaches their own decisions and emotions without being subject to external influence, or that they will even be aware that/when they are manipulated.

There's a palpable sense of "fuck them" in your response here.

Is your disdain of the idea of welcoming Bernie supporters with open arms beneficial, or does it play into discord between left-leaning voters? Did you arrive at it entirely on the basis of your own direct personal experience, or was your impression of them formed on the basis of information of which you are uncertain of the origin?

How about if we change the subject matter?

Oh no! Bernie supporters didn't "rally behind Secretary Clinton"??? OMG! The horror!

No, we shouldn't need to coddle people after their candidate loses the primary. But does that self-righteousness of it not being our obligation make the consequences of us not having been more effective at doing what we could to bring them into the fold worthwhile?

Sometimes it's very important to do something, even though we shouldn't have to.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
99. can assure you that my standards of what passes for acceptable behavior were in place and well...
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:37 PM
Apr 2019
It does not follow, however, that anyone reaches their own decisions and emotions without being subject to external influence, or that they will even be aware that/when they are manipulated.
I can assure you that my standards of what passes for acceptable behavior were in place and well established long before anyone ever thought of trying to excuse themselves by characterizing my disapproval as being the result of "Russian manipulation".

Is your disdain of the idea of welcoming Bernie supporters with open arms beneficial,
Again, I can tell you with great certainty that it's not my responsibility to validate anyone who's imagines that they have been "personally" wronged because their candidate loses an election. Mature and rational people don't need my validation. They can validate themselves, or look elsewhere.

There's a palpable sense of "fuck them" in your response here.
Maybe. And if there is, so what? If there's any manipulating being done here, it's NOT by the Russians.

what we could to bring them into the fold worthwhile?
What we "could" do and what they actually want are two different things entirely. I'm not going to play that game. People generally don't respond well to blackmail and threats. They'll either come around or they won't. Their choice, not mine.

All I'm trying to say is that compared to all the effort and concessions that are needed to convince a mere handful of butthurt voters, we could spend HALF as much time and NO concessions and get a ROOM FULL of voters. I just don't think it's a very smart use of our resources (human and otherwise) to spend an inordinate effort to try and attract one or two unreliable voters.

I believe that the bitter and resentful and vengeful voters that are harangued into tepidly supporting the party are not as valuable to us as the ones who are EXCITED and ENERGIZED about supporting Democrats. Those are the ones who donate, who volunteer, and who "spread the gospel". Those are the voters that I want on my team... not the malcontents who may (or may not) follow through anyway.



PS: And anyone who disagrees with me is probably being influenced and manipulated by the Russians.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

True Blue American

(17,972 posts)
102. That was a well thought out post, Nurse Jackie!
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:55 PM
Apr 2019

Including the last line!

It is up to us to decide what choices we make.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

mcar

(42,210 posts)
55. No. The best way, and what happened, was for Russian trolls
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:07 PM
Apr 2019

posing as Bernie supporters to constantly trash HRC and hound her supporters all over the internet.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
56. True. That probably did happen!
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:10 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
119. What were they, children, or intelligent and mature adults who wanted what was best for the country?
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 01:57 AM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
19. The entire premise is just more woe about 2016
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:15 PM
Apr 2019

That being said the originally stated point is valid.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
26. Yes, that was sad.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:23 PM
Apr 2019

But we need to move forward with our eyes open now.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
32. Yes, the general election outcome was sad
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:31 PM
Apr 2019

The way the primary process resulted in Clinton winning the nomination did not make me sad at all. Quite the opposite, really.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
33. Ok?
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:32 PM
Apr 2019

I don't have anything against Clinton. Lol.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
35. Oh I'm not saying you do
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:34 PM
Apr 2019

I’m just pointing out how I felt about the process in specific terms rather than lumping it all under the umbrella of being sad. I was just clarifying.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
41. I just want people to be careful this next election.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:48 PM
Apr 2019

I actually like a majority of the democratic candidates and am quite proud of them. They're all smart, articulate and they have good policies.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
30. Exactly. Yes. Thank you!
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:25 PM
Apr 2019

I didn't want to have to spell it out... but I guess it needed to be said.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

brooklynite

(93,873 posts)
104. Why did you read political posts on Facebook? I didn't.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:59 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

lapucelle

(18,040 posts)
16. That didn't happen to me. I stay away from social media. And that didn't happen in the GE campaign.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:09 PM
Apr 2019

It was BS supporters who were played by the Russians during the GE campaign.



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
21. You're on this -online- political forum.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:16 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

lapucelle

(18,040 posts)
72. There are administrators here, and it's not where I get my news.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:39 PM
Apr 2019

The amount of pushback you're getting is reassuring.

I feel very sorry for the useful idiots who were played by the Russians in 2016. They were overwhelmingly NOT Democrats.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

wasupaloopa

(4,516 posts)
94. Give me a frigging break! We supported Hillary we didn't push against Bernie supporters. At DU
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:50 PM
Apr 2019

were tombstoned for 3 or 4 months at a time during the height of the primary. We started our own Hillary web site because we could not post on DU.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

LakeArenal

(28,729 posts)
39. Everyone was targeted with disinformation.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:45 PM
Apr 2019

Hillary runs a sex ring from a Pizza Hut.
Hillary had Vince Foster killed
Hillary rejected protection in Benghazi.
Bill and Hillary have syphoned millions from the Global Initiative.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MaryMagdaline

(6,849 posts)
83. Yes. And the ones that were less insane but equally untrue ...
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:10 PM
Apr 2019

That Chelsea’s wedding was paid for by Clinton Foundation money, that Clinton gave favors in the Russian uranium deal.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

JHan

(10,173 posts)
117. And add the Seth Rich Conspiracy. We now know it was based on one of Assange's many lies.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 11:38 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

MaryMagdaline

(6,849 posts)
127. Absolutely! The worst of the worst
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 09:53 AM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
24. I do remember back during
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:20 PM
Apr 2019

the election that she had a lot of fake fb accounts deleted. It was supported by a site called Voactive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocativ

Vocativ was launched in 2013, with a team of approximately 60 news writers, editors and producers recruited from organizations like NBC News, the Guardian US, The Daily Beast, Storyful, Salon, NPR, CNN and Reuters.[5][6]
In 2015, Vocativ introduced a decentralized leadership structure with authority divided between the chief operating officer and chief content officer. These leaders are advised by and report to an executive committee. In 2015, Vocativ hired Vivian Schiller to chair its executive committee, reorganize its staff and refine its content and distribution strategies.[7][8][9]



here is a link to a story with their data

https://www.vocativ.com/usa/us-politics/hillary-has-more-facebook-fans-in-baghdad-than-any-us-city/

I am not saying Hillary or her campaign had any knowledge, but I am also saying that Bernie and his campaign had no knowledge. They played everyone. It was like that classic Twilight Zone episode where it shows the aliens watching a town go crazy. They just have to set things in motion and we will do the rest.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
43. Trump's campaign seemed to know.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:49 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

lapucelle

(18,040 posts)
45. Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at here.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:51 PM
Apr 2019

Your link to a story from 2015 says nothing about fake facebook accounts. What tenuous nefarious connection am I supposed to see here? What exactly are you alleging HRC and her campaign had no knowledge of?

This is why I stay away from conspiracy sites and reddit.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
54. First link is to Wiki
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:05 PM
Apr 2019

so you know that they are not reddit and who the journos are

And the second link is to the story. I don't know why you seem not to be able to read it, but I have my theories.
here you go


Hillary Has A Bigger Facebook Audience In Baghdad Than Any US City


By Leigh Cuen
Apr 13, 2015 at 2:11 PM ET

Hillary Clinton’s Facebook pages have an unexpected audience base. At least 7 percent of the Facebook fans interested in Clinton’s Facebook activity list their hometown as Baghdad, way more than any other city in the world, including in the United States.
Vocativ’s analysis of Clinton’s Facebook statistics yielded a number of surprises. Despite her reputation as an urban Democrat favored by liberal elites, Iraqis and southerners are more likely to be interested in Hillary than people living on America’s coasts.
More IS HILLARY MARRIED TOPS PRESIDENTIAL GOOGLE SEARCHES
While Chicago and New York City, both with 4 percent of her Facebook audience, round out the top three cities for Hillary’s social base, Texas’ four major centers—Houston (3 percent), Dallas (3 percent), Austin (2 percent) and San Antonio (2 percent)—contain more of her Facebook user group. Los Angeles with 3 percent, and Philadelphia and Atlanta, each with 2 percent, round out the Top 10 cities for Facebook users who have interacted with Hillary.
On a per capita basis, in which Vocativ compared a town’s population to percentage of Hillary’s likes, people living in cities and towns in Texas, Kentucky, Ohio, Arkansas, North Carolina and Wisconsin were the most likely to be interacting with her Facebook activity than any other American residents.
Hillary’s Facebook pages are also extremely unpopular with younger tech-savvy Americans, with just 8 percent of her Facebook audience being female and 11 percent being male between 18-34. Most of her Facebook audience are older than 55, including over 66 percent of women and 52 percent of her male supporters.
More WILL ASTEROIDS BE A MINERAL SOURCE IN THE FUTURE?
However, over at her Baghdad base, Clinton enjoys the support of younger Facebook user with 66 percent of the Iraqi female users and 67 percent of males aged between 18 and 34.
Across the world, 14 percent of Hillary’s Facebook audience are self-reported government employees.
See Vocativ’s exclusive analysis of Hillary’s Facebook base below:
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

lapucelle

(18,040 posts)
57. Is there a point to this?
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:10 PM
Apr 2019

What are you trying to show?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to lapucelle (Reply #57)

 

lapucelle

(18,040 posts)
69. I get it...you see some kind of apocryphal nefarious connection
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:32 PM
Apr 2019

in the city data noted in a 2015 article that predates both BS and DT announcing their presidential candidacies. You are either unable or unwilling to articulate that connection. You blame your unwillingness or inability on your "lack of faith in [my] ability to comprehend" rather than on the the fundamental failure of your argument.

Thanks for playing.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to lapucelle (Reply #69)

 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
100. Another white flag of surrender, eh?
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:49 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
49. We weren't. Hillary warned us and we accpeted that warning.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:58 PM
Apr 2019

She knew what was going on and so did we.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

comradebillyboy

(10,119 posts)
2. Just because you were sucessfully manipulated doesn't mean all of us were
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:52 PM
Apr 2019

as well. Many of us weren't deceived by the social media lies and bullshit put out by Republicans, Russians, Wikileaks and certain 'progressive' outfits.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
8. Uh huh.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:55 PM
Apr 2019

What makes you think Hillary supporters were not targeted to become more toxic against Bernie supporters?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

comradebillyboy

(10,119 posts)
9. Both sides, eh?
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:56 PM
Apr 2019

you know what the Mueller report doesn't show? It doesn't mention any support for Clinton's campaign by the Russians or any anti-Bernie propaganda by the Russians.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Bettie

(15,998 posts)
22. Ensuring that Clinton supporters were openly and continually hostile toward Sanders supporters
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:16 PM
Apr 2019

isn't support for Clinton's campaign.

Over and over, right here on DU, people said "we don't need your votes" directly to Sanders supporters.

Most voted for Clinton anyway, even after having been told over and over that they were neither needed nor wanted in the party.

Was that simply a choice or manipulation? Are "leftists" not welcome in the Democratic party?

Fact is there was ugliness from both sides, not just one.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Lazy Daisy

(928 posts)
115. And it's still ongoing
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:07 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
13. So that's what the OP is REALLY about.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:02 PM
Apr 2019

Got it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
14. It's really a warning and a call to unify.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:03 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
17. Correct. Unify. Sa positive things about YOUR candidate.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:11 PM
Apr 2019

Great vaccine for misinformation:
Whenever you are tempted to be negative about some liberal, instead be positive about YOUR candidate.

Eg if you’re feeling upset about excessive neoliberalism, don’t attack people for that.
Instead, talk about the progressive stances of your candidate.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
18. My Candidate in 2016 was Bernie Sanders. Was.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:12 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
23. Right, so say good things about the candidates you like today!
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:18 PM
Apr 2019

Which candidate do you like today, and what can you say about them that is positive?

Ps good thread

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
25. I'm unsure.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:21 PM
Apr 2019

I like so many of them.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LenaBaby61

(6,965 posts)
34. "Just because you were sucessfully manipulated doesn't mean all of us were."
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:33 PM
Apr 2019
THANK YOU!!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

better

(884 posts)
96. And just because we weren't successfully manipulated last time doesn't mean we can't be this time.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:53 PM
Apr 2019

Let's try to set aside the defensive reactions. Add the implied word "targeted" to the end of OP's subject line, and reassess. Does it still merit the same defensive reaction? I mean honestly, the entire OP can be quite accurately summarized "How to avoid making the mistakes I made."

The OP's intent was clearly not to fault anyone, save him/herself, and honestly, we should be applauding such honest self-assessment. It was to remind us all to be vigilant and careful, as we are all subject to being targeted for manipulation, and we cannot afford to count on immediately recognizing that that's what's going on.

Also, let's take note that everyone being manipulated by the Russians does not equal everyone being manipulated SUCCESSFULLY.

But just because many of us saw through the manipulation does not mean that we were not manipulated. It just means we're already fairly well equipped to share the kind of knowledge of how to avoid being manipulated successfully that the OP is endeavoring here to share, for all our benefit.

Kudos to us for having been ahead of the curve, so to speak, but instead of thumping our chests about how much better we did than some others, how about we applaud what the OP is trying to do here, and support it?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
111. Thank you.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:00 PM
Apr 2019

Uhm, should I add the word targeted?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #2)

 

CentralMass

(15,265 posts)
4. I was manipulated by no one.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:53 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

yonder

(9,631 posts)
5. Good, common sense post. Especially about slowing down - don't feed the beast. Thank you.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:54 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
6. What exactly (memes, videos, or articles) manipulated you?
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:55 PM
Apr 2019



Most of the stuff I've seen fed on existing divisions within the party and the two candidates of 2016.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
11. That's exactly how Russian propaganda works.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:02 PM
Apr 2019

It doesn't create divisions, it exploits existing ones and makes them worse.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
20. Right, but people are acting like the divisions didn't exist a priori...
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:16 PM
Apr 2019

... or that the same outcomes within the Democratic Primary or GE wouldn't have occurred with certainty.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
89. Well I agree with you there. We don't know what would have happened without the Russians
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:23 PM
Apr 2019

I suspect the results wouldn't have been too different, but it was only 80,000 votes in 3 states, so maybe they could have swung that many. Still, even with a Clinton victory, she'd face Republican obstruction, cries that she stole the election and possible impeachment. Basically, the country would be the same as it is now, except we'd have better judges and cleaner twitter feeds.(that's only half a joke).

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
84. that's why the russians got trump to study talk radio in 2014 and their trolling ops
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:10 PM
Apr 2019

piggybacked 30 years of talk radio repetition- they weren't going to rely on a bunch of russians making shit up about hillary.

there will be some crap made up but if americans, including facebook etc, want to know what the russians are pushing just become familiar with what limbaugh is repeating.

his transcrips are now available on the iheart site and can be searched for any topic, name, etc + news.iheart.com/featured/rush-limbaugh/content

the russians have been making shit up and feeding it through limbaugh for at least a decade whether he knows it or not, and then there are the GOP think tanks that have been doing the same

facebook could save a lot of money by digitizing talk radio, tracking the main crap they sell there 15hrs/day, and watch for that.

the dem party should have been doing that 30 years ago and we wouldn't be in this mess

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

better

(884 posts)
98. That's a GREAT response.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:15 PM
Apr 2019

And exactly the sort of contribution of ideas of how to identify and catalog the threat that I was calling for above. A cogent focus on who can affect improvement and how, which is exactly what we need.

Thank you for this.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
58. Unfortunately I cannot undelete my account to show you.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:10 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
27. This was obvious to some of us.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:23 PM
Apr 2019

I must have said "don't do Kkkarl Rove's dirty work" a thousand times, to no avail.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

theophilus

(3,750 posts)
28. Thanks for this. Good advice given, imo. And these things bring out the usual suspects. Always
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:24 PM
Apr 2019

nice to see the comments. Informative. Such interactions brighten my day. Wonderful back and forth, etc., etc., etc.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Kahuna7

(2,531 posts)
42. I was not manipulated and I don't believe most Hillary voters were. nt
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:49 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
47. Ok.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:56 PM
Apr 2019

But are you taking precautions for the next round?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
52. Why do you think I need to take precautions?
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:04 PM
Apr 2019

I could not be manipulated the first time around and I won't be this time around. I know bullshit when I see and or read it. I did not believe any of the lies about Hillary and I won't believe any lies about my chosen candidate this time. I do not believe crap propagated by the right or left. I read and think for myself.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Kahuna7

(2,531 posts)
67. I don't need to take precautions. I'm a black, female, senior citizen..
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:28 PM
Apr 2019

I'm not easily fooled.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
68. The Russians infiltrated black lives matters.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:32 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Kahuna7

(2,531 posts)
71. I know they did. But they didn't get to me. 94% of black female voters voted for HRC.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:37 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
44. I was not manipulated by Russians, and there are many more on DU who weren't, either.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:51 PM
Apr 2019

We called out the lies, and continue to do so.

We're not going to be fooled this time either.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
46. Okay!
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:53 PM
Apr 2019

Do you have precautions in place? This is what I want. Preparation.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Celerity

(42,669 posts)
112. Resistance to Active Measures and Propaganda: "The Disruptors" - Motto: "Think For Yourself"
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:15 PM
Apr 2019
https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/the-cyber-underground-%E2%80%93-resistance-to-active-measures-and-propaganda-%E2%80%9Cthe-disruptors%E2%80%9D-mot-0

Summary

The open societies of the US and free and democratic nations are being subverted by active measures and propaganda to undermine political processes and sow cultural and political divisions to allow closed societies of revisionist and revolutionary powers to dominate in international affairs. The way to counter this effort is through a grass roots resistance movement that consists of an educated, activist, energetic, and empowered youth who seek to be part of something larger than themselves and validate their self-worth as disruptors of the status quo. However, the closed societies are challenging their ability to disrupt because active measures and propaganda have taken away their initiative. A new grass roots movement, a cyber underground, organized around special operations principles can create a nationwide and global network that will seek out, identify, understand, and expose active measures and propaganda from closed societies in order to protect free and open societies. In short our nation wide youth of disruptors will channel their abilities to beat the revisionist and revolutionary disruptors. The exposure of adversary active measures and propaganda will inoculate the population against their effects and render their efforts ineffective and useless. This movement will help to restore and sustain what George Kennan termed the “health and vigor of our own society” that is the vital antidote to the subversive threats that we face.

Introduction

The values and political systems of open democratic societies are facing a world wide campaign of subversion by powers that seek to undermine democracies in order to strengthen their power in their region and throughout the world. This subversive campaign requires a global asymmetric response that cannot be organized by governments. It requires a grass roots resistance to conduct a counter cyber subversion campaign. An organizing principle may be found in both the modern concept of crowd sourcing and the application of special operations principles.

US Definition of Resistance: An organized effort by some portion of the civil population of a country to resist the legally established government or an occupying power and to disrupt civil order and stability. (US Joint Pub 3-05)


Adapted Definition of Resistance: An organized effort by some portion of the civil population to defend against the active measures and propaganda of an outside power that is seeking to disrupt civil society and create disorder and undermine the legitimacy of the constituted government and political system.


Subversion, active measures, and propaganda are key elements of modern unconventional warfare campaigns and revisionist and revolutionary powers are conducting unconventional warfare campaigns. Americans and the people of like-minded modern nation state powers need to resist the campaigns and strategies of those who are attacking freedom and democracy and the international nation state system that is required for freedom and democracy to flourish.

Congress recognized this threat in the 2016 National Defense Authorization Act in Section 1097 which directed the Department of Defense in coordination with other government agencies to develop a counter unconventional warfare strategy. While Congress called for a whole of government approach that is the modern framework for national security in the 21st Century, what is really necessary is a whole of society approach and engagement through, with, and by the people. The US government, and certainly not DOD, cannot defend America from these threats. It requires the people.

snip



RUSSIAN ACTIVE MEASURES IN GERMANY AND THE UNITED STATES: ANALOG LESSONS FROM THE COLD WAR

https://warontherocks.com/2017/09/russian-active-measures-in-germany-and-the-united-states-analog-lessons-from-the-cold-war/


Leaking damaging documents during election season, feeding the media false stories about candidates, and concocting conspiracy theories to smear politicians: this will sound familiar to anyone who followed the U.S. presidential election, and to an extent, recent campaigns in France and Germany. But these methods are not new. In fact, the Soviet Union used them all in West Germany throughout the Cold War.

The United States, as the Soviet Union’s “main enemy,” and West Germany, seen as the KGB’s “door to the West,” were the primary targets of Soviet “active measures,” or subversive operations. The two countries share a history that is all the more vital to understand amid claims that Russian active measures are back in business.

In Germany, warnings of the resurrection of active measures followed a series of high-profile incidents last year that evoked Cold War methods. Particularly notorious was the Lisa case, in which even Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov joined Kremlin-backed media in stoking German public outrage over the alleged rape of a Russian-German by refugees — after the story had been debunked. Compounding that, after the highly publicized 2015 hack of the German parliament, some feared that stepped-up attempts to hack politicians and journalists would lead to the leaking of documents during the elections. Berlin suspected the recent attempts, along with the 2015 hack, were committed by APT 28, the Russian military-linked group accused of the 2016 Democratic National Committee (DNC) hack.

On the day of the U.S. presidential election, German Chancellor Angela Merkel admitted that confronting “internet attacks that are of Russian origin” and the “false information” propagated by Russian media had already become “a daily task.” Though the election campaign was relatively quiet — briefly interrupted by a Russian-language botnet bolstering misleading messages from the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) — the entrance of the Russia-friendly, Euroskeptic AfD in parliament with a significant number of seats has opened the door for the kind of polarizing politics that such influence operations feed on.

As Germany hastens efforts to shield itself from outside interference and the United States presses on in its investigations into Russian meddling, it’s worth re-examining the two countries’ experience with active measures. West Germany, after all, endured the whole gamut of active measures, including at least three instances of Moscow interfering in its elections. For its part, the United States made a vocal effort to determine how to confront the problem that the Soviets posed to it and its European allies. As policymakers today confront a familiar toolkit, this history shines light on the kind of impact active measures can have, how attempted defenses have fared, and what lessons have endured despite active measures’ digital upgrade.

“Fake News” and Leaks 1.0

snip
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
125. Yes, the same ones that worked for me before.
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 08:27 AM
Apr 2019

Understanding basic journalism - what is good and bad journalistic practice, understanding the difference between opinion pieces and reporting.

Being informed about the sources of information - not that any source is infallible, but knowing that they have a track record of good journalistic practices.

Being aware when my emotions and not my intellect is being appealed to, especially on Social Media. If a source is deliberately ginning up outrage, my spidey senses start tingling. I learned a lot of that when I worked at a reproductive rights org, and read a lot of anti-choice contraception and abortion propaganda.

If a public figure lashes out at a reputable news source fact checking them, that's also a big red flag. Being combative with the legitimate free press for doing their job is a litmus test for me in terms of how they handle facts that don't support their talking points.

Understanding the difference between getting behind a candidate, and walking lockstep with a manifesto. I can support a candidate that I don't agree with on every detail, and even one that I find irritating. Politicians are human, and they ALL make mistakes, and they have different POVs.

Beware of "all or nothing" dualistic messaging within a Democratic primary such as "the only moral candidate" "the only progressive candidate" - that shoots up red flags, in every sense, all over the place with me. That indicates divisive propaganda at it source, even if those who are taken in and repeat it are not working for Russia or the GOP.

Any messaging about a candidate that states they are the "only moral candidate" gets put into the propaganda column.

There are also some tools available to help be a responsible consumer of information:

https://guides.lib.uw.edu/research/evaluate/fakenews



https://billmoyers.com/story/savvy-news-consumers-guide-not-get-duped/




If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
126. Thank you.
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 08:54 AM
Apr 2019

This is really useful information.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

The Mouth

(3,123 posts)
133. Thanks. Good info
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 06:04 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

andym

(5,441 posts)
48. Twilight Zone's The Monsters are Due on Maple Street
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:58 PM
Apr 2019

where alien creatures induce people in a quiet American neighborhood to be at each other's throats by turning on and off lights during a blackout. Rod Serling's masterwork illustrates a powerful means to sow division that the Russians and others right here in America are well aware of.
It's even easier when there are ready-made divisions to exploit, and no doubt they will be exploited. The Russians would be lax if they do not try this approach to amplify potential divisions in 2020.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

prodigitalson

(2,298 posts)
50. yes. the space between stimuli and response is where true freedom and wisdom lie
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:00 PM
Apr 2019

we must tap into our inner Obama.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
51. #2 & #7 Hell Yes!
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:01 PM
Apr 2019

I hate YouTube videos, I find them one of the worst places to actually learn anything.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
61. Youtube videos were the worst sort of manipulation.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:14 PM
Apr 2019

You ever hear how they were turning people into conspiracy nuts with the play next button?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
59. Great rules for voters because those who did this last time weren't fooled.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:12 PM
Apr 2019

We can't do away with all the personal weaknesses and biases they target, but we definitely can take a few sensible precautions and do something about levels of ignorance that would make easy suckers of absolutely anyone. So when they come for us, we know them.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
62. You tried
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:14 PM
Apr 2019

But there is a syndrome going on here.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
64. Is there?
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:15 PM
Apr 2019

This is my first post in this forum.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
66. Gird your loins. nt
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:20 PM
Apr 2019

I just been reminded about the swarm mentality. I have chosen now to ignore two puppets and I am sure my life will be much happier.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

marble falls

(56,359 posts)
63. Good advice for any voter, a welcome post!
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:15 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Ponietz

(2,905 posts)
73. Russia sure as hell doesn't want impeachment--remember that
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:40 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
92. Yes, that is a good point.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:37 PM
Apr 2019

I have heard this theory but obviously it's not confirmed: They want our democratic process to fail so they can point to us and say, "see, democracy doesn't work."

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MaryMagdaline

(6,849 posts)
74. Good post
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:40 PM
Apr 2019

The first step in fighting propaganda is to recognize that you are a target.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

sop

(9,946 posts)
77. It's easier to con someone
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:52 PM
Apr 2019

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2019, 08:26 AM - Edit history (1)

than convince them they've been conned.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
79. And now I'm fully realizing that.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:56 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

sop

(9,946 posts)
122. The Russians call it "Reflexive Control"
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 07:16 AM
Apr 2019

From a New York Times (April 19, 2019) opinion piece on Russian disinformation tactics:

"Reflexive control is a uniquely Russian technique of psychological manipulation through disinformation. The idea is to feed your adversary a set of assumptions that will produce a predictable response: That response, in turn, furthers a goal that advances your interests. By luring your opponent into agreeing with your initial assumptions, you can control the narrative, and ultimate outcome, in your favor. Best of all, the outcome is one in which your adversary has voluntarily acceded."

Many on the left "voluntarily acceded." Now they don't want to admit it, even to themselves.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
75. Not everyone was manipulated. Everyone saw information designed
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:44 PM
Apr 2019

to manipulate, but many saw it for what it was and did what you say you will now do. We checked facts. We paid little attention to internet chatter. We read candidate websites, along with the Democratic platform. We read trusted sources who had proven themselves for years.

We voted, based on our own assessments, not because someone tried to manipulate us. The pity is that more people did not do that. Sometimes, we tried to convince people to do what you are suggesting in your seven points. Often we were cursed for doing so.

Many of us have been doing those things all along. We didn't change our habits in 2016. Once the primaries were over and we had a nominee, we focused on winning the election as best we could. We voted for the party's nominee, like we always do. We are Democrats.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gore1FL

(21,034 posts)
76. Thanks for this.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:46 PM
Apr 2019

I see some of the usual subjects going into "2016 mode" on this thread. This seems to bolster your point.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
78. Yes, part of my point was to heal from 2016 or get manipulated by those old wounds.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:53 PM
Apr 2019

I'm unsure how to approach those who believe they can't be manipulated. That's an odd stance to hold.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
80. I don't see how deleting Facebook or Twitter helps. Awareness is what's important.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:58 PM
Apr 2019

Since the age of Trump, I post probably 2/3 political stuff on Facebook now, only posting things like family photos to other family and personal friends.

And I have had a surprising number of people thank me for the posts and even tell me that they regularly go to my page to see what I put up there -- like articles from the WA Post, the New York Times, Just Security, Lawfare, and any other trustworthy site that seems to contain good info.

Like it or not, almost everyone we know is on FB, so we should be using the platform to get the truth out, not desert it because we're afraid of being contaminated.

I agree with you about fact-checking and knowing your source, and supporting the sources that I can.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
82. There was more than one reason.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:04 PM
Apr 2019

I think Facebook was ironically hurting my social life. I'd be hung up on meeting up with people already gone in my life instead of meeting new people. I don't necessarily think everyone should quit. As long as you don't trust "grassroots" groups, don't watch short political videos and believe every meme you see. But then again, that's kind of hard to do on Facebook, yah?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Marcuse

(7,399 posts)
90. I voted for Bernie in the primary and Hillary in November. It was easy.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:25 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
93. geez!!
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:46 PM
Apr 2019

after reading some of these posts - how do you say "mission accomplished" in Russian?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

peggysue2

(10,811 posts)
95. I take your comments as a cautionary tale
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:50 PM
Apr 2019

I do not believe that everyone was manipulated in 2016 but I certainly think that 2016 proved that we are all vulnerable to manipulation. A heads up on the power of skilled propaganda is a good, common sense directive. Because the merchants of disinformation and propaganda will most certainly be out in force (actually they're already swarming) as we head into 2020.

To be forewarned is to be forearmed. If I'm interpreting your main post correctly, that's my take-away.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
97. Certainly if you took these precautions before, there was some immunity.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:05 PM
Apr 2019

Though to say social media didn't influence real media would be folly. The mere mention of the 2016 election put people in 2016 argument mode, and that can be exploited. So can thinking you absolutely cannot be manipulated.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

peggysue2

(10,811 posts)
105. I don't think there's any question that some reporters within the MSM were influenced . . .
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 06:24 PM
Apr 2019

by propaganda, willfully or not. Jeff Zucker at CNN made that infamous statement about Trump: "He may be bad for the country but he's great TV". For Zucker and other media moguls, Donald Trump was a revenue stream. For Trump it was free PR. The pile-on from the media over Hillary's emails looks positively ludicrous in retrospect. The NYTs published a number of stories that were clearly off the mark while never exposing Donald Trump's long history of grifting and cutting corners. New Yorkers and tri-state people knew who the man was long ago. And the NYT's had archives filled with the man's excesses.

But that still doesn't prove that every single person, Dem or otherwise, was manipulated in 2016. Sorry, I don't buy the idea that Hillary supporters fell victim to manipulation because they weren't welcoming enough to Bernie's people. Bernie supporters acted the way they acted and need to take responsibility for their own poor attitudes.

But on this we agree: the same tactics will be attempted this time 'round. Consequently, we can't say we weren't warned.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
106. Did they really all act that way?
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 07:08 PM
Apr 2019

DU is an obvious target. Neon sign saying we talk about politics here. It's why I probably won't stay long and go on another hiatus. People argue politics all day here, they're addicted to it, you see people try to quit and they put up I'm back messages a week later. I saw it in my mom, she was on here what felt like 24/7 during the W. Bush years. Sure, it helped to be informed, but I view this method of getting the news severely compromised. I'm back here too after the Mueller report, addicted to what DU used to be. All day everyone goes after each others opinions, to form and shape them. To convince others of whatever their agenda is. If you can't change people's minds, usually you can find ways simply to change how they react.

If I was a nefarious scheming type of person I would take the knowledge of how people reacted to my post and continue using that method to stir those 2016 feelings and feed their ego trip for being right about the Mueller report. Encourage those feel good feelings that they are better than Bernie supporters and stoke that thought that people who supported Bernie are all morons who believed nonsense. Perhaps try to encourage a Bernie purge. Or perhaps that purge already happen and that work is already done and the next mark is Elizabeth Warren.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

peggysue2

(10,811 posts)
107. I check in on this board multiple times a day but I also . . .
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 07:18 PM
Apr 2019

subscribe to the NYT, WAPO and read other sources on a daily basis. Am I addicted? Well, I'm definitely addicted to reading as widely as I can. There's no doubt that a single source, regardless of how much we like it, will slant your view in a particular direction. That being said, I do not have a twitter account though I can read others through my mobile port. I don't Facebook because I've never trusted the platform.

But your conjecture about "if you were a nefarious scheming person . . ." says a whole lot about your own attitude, not mine.

I thought we were having a conversation. Apparently we are not. Good-bye.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
108. ? I said if I was one.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 07:21 PM
Apr 2019

As an example of what they can do to shape opinion.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BlueFlorida

(1,532 posts)
103. I am 100% positive that I was not manipulated. nt
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:55 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

betsuni

(25,138 posts)
116. I noticed the fake news starting after the Snowden incident.
Sun Apr 21, 2019, 11:33 PM
Apr 2019

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2019, 02:15 AM - Edit history (1)

Members of my favorite online group (all women, most on Facebook, international) began posting articles from strange sites called TheRealTrueNewsHonestlyTrustMe.com or whatever, some genuine (about Monsanto, pink slime, health things) and some fake. Glenn Greenwald would write an article with a dramatic headline blaming Obama for some terrible government thing, but if you read the article the terrible thing happened two years before Obama became president. There was a definite shift toward anti-Americanism, pro-Russia.

I spent a lot of time debunking crap about Obama starting WWIII, illegal surveillance, empire building, drone warfare, that he couldn't read without a monitor and was an empty suit, Michelle going on million dollar vacations, the birther thing. I tried to convince them that the Bush and Obama administrations were different, how the Republican Party wasn't even a real political party anymore.

By 2015 I was tired of being a journalist for free. I thought that surely nobody could be more disrespected and lied about than Obama. Ha! The lust to hate Clinton was sick. When that started up I retired from the group, knew facts couldn't make a dent on those deranged conspiracy theories so many people lusted for. It fulfilled some sort of need. By 2016 the fake news was almost a parody of itself it was so obvious. I was grateful for the DU members who still lived in the fact-based world and that I still trust.

What I noticed about the worst affected (and looking at the list realize this is my mother):

Binary thinking. Everything is black or white. Good or evil. Hero or devil. Moral or immoral. Pure or corrupt.

Subjective and emotional, can't be objective.

Quick to blame others, always the victim. Assumes bad motivations to others (but will believe what a stranger on the Internet says and not someone they've known for years and should trust not to lie to them). Projects their own weaknesses onto others.

Literal thinkers, poor critical thinking/reading skills. Does not listen. Communicates mostly with logical fallacies.

Pessimistic, negative, angry. Always have a personal insult. Thinks they are smarter than everybody else.

Likes labels, slogans. Assigns new meanings to words.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Kaleva

(36,147 posts)
120. I supported Hillary but would have glady voted and supported Bernie had he won the nomination.
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 03:28 AM
Apr 2019

Can't do much about the folks who've been manipulated into make a career out of refighting the 2016 primary so why bother with them?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

duforsure

(11,882 posts)
124. Every day
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 07:48 AM
Apr 2019

That's exactly what trump is doing by attacking people on twitter to use to divide them and use to pit them against each other with. Its used to weaken the opposition , and then attack again with. Putin has done the same thing in taking complete control in russia with , and run his criminal enterprise with, like trump is presently doing now here. It would be very unlikely trump was smart enough to do all this on his own. republicans are enabling our government now to be a criminal enterprise, and with putin behind it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

WeekiWater

(3,259 posts)
128. Why should we assume everyone was when the manipulation was targeted?
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 10:09 AM
Apr 2019

To make that assumption is to ignore known facts.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

peggysue2

(10,811 posts)
132. Good question, WeekiWater
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 01:55 PM
Apr 2019

To make that assumption absolutely ignores the facts we know and attempts to extrapolate a theory: that the manipulation and disinformation of 2016 had an equal effect everyone. Not true.

On the other hand, that doesn't discredit the cautionary: we are still vulnerable, so heads up everyone.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Apple Fritter

(131 posts)
130. I understand OP
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 01:34 PM
Apr 2019

I think many feel like Russian interference was the strongest thing. I don't agree. I think that your list is very helpful to prevent the individual from being caught up in political confusion and some of those tips should be used a lot more! I also think that there was always a problem before outside forces decided to exploit it. I think the root cause is the american people splintering on Ideologies and the direction of the country. As an example, Democrats and Republicans see candidate 1 represent a certain ideology and Candidate 2 as another very different path. This was happening before anyone announced that they would run for office.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Neoma

(10,039 posts)
131. Yes, you make a good point there.
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 01:46 PM
Apr 2019

Tribalism and confirmation bias is part of the problem. As well as the destruction of the fairness doctrine. There's more at play than trolls from Russia.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
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