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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 12:50 PM

 

Why Should What Someone Says Here Have Anything to Do With Whether One Votes?

Several times, someone has told me that my opinion affects other voters. For example, I think Bernie Sanders should withdraw from the primary race and endorse Joe Biden, who clearly holds a solid lead and will almost certainly become our party's nominee.

Every time I express that opinion, someone is bound to ask me why I am alienating Bernie Sanders supporters. The unstated warning is that they might not vote for Joe Biden, because they have hurt feelings about my opinion, or something like that.

How can that be? Why would my opinion about what Bernie Sanders should do affect whether or not someone would vote? That makes no sense whatsoever.

If the shoe were on the other foot, I would vote in November for Bernie Sanders. Why? Because he would be the Democratic nominee. I would never even consider not voting in that election. So, why would anyone who now supports Bernie Sanders say that my opinion about him as a candidate might affect whether or not they vote. How bizarre!

I mean, really. I have one vote. You have one vote. We each have one vote, and no more than that. My opinion should not matter at all to anyone but myself, no matter how often I state that opinion in this discussion forum.

On November 3, we all will have an opportunity to vote for the next President. Should something I say at the end of March affect anyone's vote? That's a ridiculous idea.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Arrow 18 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why Should What Someone Says Here Have Anything to Do With Whether One Votes? (Original post)
MineralMan Mar 31 OP
Watchfoxheadexplodes Mar 31 #1
MineralMan Mar 31 #2
AtheistCrusader Mar 31 #3
MineralMan Mar 31 #4
DownriverDem Mar 31 #5
AtheistCrusader Mar 31 #8
Demsrule86 Apr 1 #15
AtheistCrusader Apr 1 #16
SCantiGOP Mar 31 #6
Happy Hoosier Mar 31 #10
TwilightZone Mar 31 #7
thesquanderer Mar 31 #9
TwilightZone Mar 31 #11
TomCADem Mar 31 #12
TomSlick Mar 31 #13
MineralMan Apr 1 #14
TomSlick Apr 1 #17
Gothmog Apr 1 #18

Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 12:51 PM

1. Why worry about it?

 

Sanders won't be the nominee.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Watchfoxheadexplodes (Reply #1)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 12:53 PM

2. Yes, I know that, with a certainty that approaches 100%.

 

That's why I think Bernie Sanders should end his primary campaign and endorse Joe Biden. That would make excellent sense for him to do.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 12:56 PM

3. You would.

 

"If the shoe were on the other foot, I would vote in November for Bernie Sanders. Why? Because he would be the Democratic nominee."

You would. At least one Biden staffer was on TV stating the opposite not long ago. I don't know if 'blue no matter who' got old or what, but for some vocal voters, that's broken down over time.

I agree with you on voting for Biden if he's the nominee, even though I'd prefer Sanders, but that's not the universal case.

On the other bit, I think very little of what we say *HERE* actually sways many voters. We're all pretty strong partisans here. (Which is fine)
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 12:57 PM

4. I am a Democrat. I vote for Democratic candidates in every election.

 

Always.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 01:52 PM

5. I would. but

 

I wouldn't like it. Why? He will never be a true Dem to me.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to DownriverDem (Reply #5)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 02:23 PM

8. That's fair.

 

I've even had issues with 'true Dem's' that diverged from party platform on issues. Totally understand.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 1, 2020, 10:09 AM

15. Another Sanders supporter...with a pic. This is a zombie primary as Biden has won. Sanders has

 

stayed in too long. For the record, I would vote for Sanders if he were the nominee...but you admit he is not going to be the nominee while still 'supporting' him as his 'team' attacks Biden viciously. I will no longer do this...watch while while supporters of Sanders continue to 'support' Sanders here or anywhere...so I will see you after Sanders drops out. Ignore is your friend. It is shocking to me that so many are willing to risk the General to support a candidate that already lost in the middle of the Corona horror. Trump is incompetent and evil. He must go. The purpose of a primary is too pick a nominee and that has happened. We could be spending our time in the general without the likes or Bri Bri or Sirota calling Biden filthy names and making accusations. So see you soon...I hope it doesn't take long for Sanders to get out...every day he remains in the primary only helps Trump.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #15)

Wed Apr 1, 2020, 11:59 AM

16. Well, bye.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 01:55 PM

6. I'll tell you what's ridiculous

 

That anyone would think they have enough to say to crank out 44 pendantic posts per day over the last 90 days.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to SCantiGOP (Reply #6)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 02:56 PM

10. Shots fired!!!

 

I mean, no one makes you read them. Seems kind of petty.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 01:57 PM

7. It's just an excuse, sometimes to disrupt, sometimes for self-pity.

 

Frankly, it always sounds a bit childish to me, like a small child throwing a tantrum. If I don't get my way, I'm going to take my toys and go home and pout. Not sure what that's supposed to accomplish other than making the poster look childish.

It's also a go-to response when someone doesn't have a valid one, along with the knee-jerk "Bernie hater" insult. Again, it just sounds childish. I halfway except the next response to be "you're not my mom!"

If people are so thin-skinned that some mild criticism of their candidate might lead them not to vote against Trump in November, they really need to grow up. It's grown well beyond tiresome after five years of it.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 02:28 PM

9. re: "The unstated warning is that they might not vote for Joe Biden"

 

That particular warning may be unstated for a reason... maybe because it isn't what they're saying. I think you may be misinterpreting the warning.

Personally, I take no issue with what I consider "legitimate" negative posts... if someone wants to thoughtfully post about why they think Sanders should drop out and endorse Biden, or discuss what they don't like about some of his policies, or where his poll numbers or ability to draw certain demographics fall short, fine. But many posts here cross a line into being disrespectfully negative ("Bernie bashing" ), and while I understand that's not really what you're talking about, my reply about such posts in another thread may be relevant here, when trying to get perspective on people who are concerned about, as you said, "alienating Bernie Sanders supporters". What I said (slightly tweaked for this thread) was:

The vast majority of Sanders supporters probably already know they will vote for whoever the Dem nominee is, i.e. Biden. *Especially* the Sanders supporters on DU, where that number is probably very near 100%.

Nevertheless, a psychological battering down or belittling by Biden supporters can affect enthusiasm. And while an enthusiastic vote may count exactly the same as an unenthusiastic one, there could be differences in how good they feel about that vote, which can affect things like how much they talk Biden up among their friends, whether they contribute $ to the campaign, whether they volunteer, etc.

I've seen numerous posts here over the year from people who said that, even though they would hold their noses and vote for Sanders in the general if it came to that, they could never fully get behind him simply because they can't stand the attitudes they've seen from some of his supporters. Legitimate or not, that's a shoe that can as easily be worn on the other foot. We don't want reluctant, nose-holding voters as much as we want voters who feel good about their vote and behave accordingly. Because while, as you say, "we each have one vote, and no more than that", we also each have some ability to influence the outcome by more than just our vote. It's better for us to have allies rather than people who are merely resigned to something they see as the less undesirable of two undesirable outcomes.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #9)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 05:43 PM

11. "where that number is probably very near 100%"

 

That's a bit optimistic. His supporters on DU are indicating that they'll vote for Biden because that's part of the terms of service of the website. There are a significant number of them who I'm reasonably certain won't. They're pretty easy to spot. Some of them have been here for years.

"maybe because it isn't what they're saying"

I disagree. Some of them are stating it quite clearly. I'm also pretty certain that this OP is in response to one doing exactly that.

"Bernie bashing"...

is, for the most part, a knee-jerk comment made regarding any criticism of Sanders, however mild. Do some people cross the line? Certainly. But there are just as many people who compulsively call anyone who posts anything critical of Sanders a "hater". When was the last time you saw a Biden supporter non-ironically call a Sanders supporter a "hater"? It's a childish insult and I don't think the posters have any idea that it says way more about them than it does their target. Same goes for "Bernie bashing". It's an overly simplistic, all-purpose, meaningless response.

"can't stand the attitudes they've seen from some of his supporters"

There's a significant difference, as far as I'm concerned. The Biden supporters who exhibit this behavior do not reflect their candidate. On the other hand, much of the nonsense posted by Sanders supporters is straight out of the horse's mouth and/or is promoted by his staff or prominent surrogates. Hacking at the Democratic Party, promoting doctored videos of Biden indicating "dementia", constantly parroting the "where is Biden?" nonsense, etc.

For the most part, the Bernie or Busters - and there any many more of them here than you apparently realize - were never going to vote for anyone other than Bernie. That hasn't changed and it has nothing to do with anything anyone says on DU. It has to do with their candidate spending years calling VP Biden and the rest of the non-Sanders Democrats "corrupt" and undermining their support, entirely by design.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 08:58 PM

12. Because Everyone Knows Bernie Is Thin Skinned Like Trump?

 

Even BS supporters are threatening that continuing to say negative things about Bernie is just going to encourage him and his supporters to continue stay in the race even though this just helps Trump. It is sort of like how Trump is threatening not to provide federal aid to Governors who are not nice to him.

In the end, BS's continued destructive behaviors underscores why he is not fit to be President.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Mar 31, 2020, 11:02 PM

13. I think you are correct for most here on DU but not all.

 

There are some here on DU - like you, my dear MM - that are recognized as éminences grises among us whose opinions carry more weight than those of others.

I do not always agree with you. However, when we disagree, I reconsider my position.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #13)

Wed Apr 1, 2020, 09:16 AM

14. Well, I certainly am grise.

 

I'm not so sure about the eminence part, though.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 1, 2020, 01:41 PM

17. You have been on DU since Moses was a corporal.

 

Your posts are thoughtful and well written. You have an interesting background. And, I just learned, you are (or at least were) an oboist.

So yeah, you are an eminence.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Wed Apr 1, 2020, 06:15 PM

18. The benefit of the Democrats denouncing Sanders's selfishness

 

I am tired of sanders and his supporters demanding that we bend a knee and anoint sanders as the nominee. It may be better to simply give up on the 15% who will not vote for any real Democrat and move on



If you are in the search for silver linings, one benefit of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) pointlessly continuing his losing campaign is the freedom for Democrats to denounce him and his anti-party escapades. After years of humoring him, the vast majority of Democrats, from super-progressives to moderates, can now say out loud what they’ve said quietly: It has always been about Bernie. It’s not a movement, but rather a vanity project. ....

The problem, according to many Democrats, remains that 15 percent of Sanders supporters say in polling that they would vote for President Trump over Biden. This nugget actually makes the opposite argument: There is nothing that would satisfy some faction of the Sanders coalition that would rather blow up our democracy and reelect Trump. With people so irrational, the best response is to ignore them. They, like the MAGA-hat crowd, are unreachable and cannot be bargained with (e.g., more New Green Deal talk!). So do not try. No more outreach to Sanders, no more promised policy modifications, no more speaking slot at the convention. Enough

This would have some salutary effects.

First, it would make perfectly clear that Biden is not Sanders and not a crazy left-winger, as Trump would like to paint him in the campaign. Biden makes a sharp distinction between the “democratic socialist” crowd and his own brand of center-left politics. Since he cannot get the 15 percent of “Bernie or Bust” Democrats (or independents), he might as well make a strong play for moderate independents and disaffected Republicans. Cutting Sanders off effectively allows Biden to pitch to gettable swing voters, not waste time on unattainable Bernie Bros.

Second, freezing out Sanders will make governance in a Biden administration much easier and more cohesive. There will be no debt to be paid to Sanders, no advisers taken on to satisfy Sanders, and no weird and distracting policy initiatives to lead the new administration astray. This would be a center-left administration confident of its own governing agenda — and personally cohesive.

Third, it would free up constructive, smart progressive leaders such as Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) to lead that wing of the party. She has already begun that process, contributing bankruptcy and student loan forgiveness plans to the Biden campaign. With a practical, crafty progressive in the Senate (hopefully in the majority and able to lead on legislation), Biden would be able to broaden his appeal and cultivate allies in the Warren wing of the party.

In other words, shoving Sanders offstage opens up room for party builders and party reformers, putting aside unattainable proposals (e.g., Medicare-for-all) in favor of a smarter, more broadly acceptable agenda. (Biden would not need to fend off a Warren primary challenge, as Barack Obama did with Sanders in 2012.)

The party is never going to make the 15% to 25% of sanders supporters happy. 25% of sanders supporters either voted for trump, voted for a third party candidate like Stein or stayed home


I am tired of trying to appease sanders supporters who are not going to be happy and there are real benefits in moving on and ignoring these voters.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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