Is the complaint that Bernie stands unwavering and refuses to bend for anyone?

[KentuckyWoman]

What I hear is that he refuses to bend. Well, he pretty much says the same thing about himself.

I believe him when he says he won't compromise AT ALL where the rubber meets the road for him. His voting record supports that. The man has a vision and he's walking his path... we can agree with him or not.

Yes, people like this are indeed difficult to work with. But I think we need the voices that are unwavering for where we really want to end up. Whether or not we support him in the primary, could we at least appreciate what the man brings to the table? Whether or not the man is ever President, the very idea we what to shut down someone who believes that strongly is just a bad idea. The Democratic Party I joined doesn't stand for that.

[UniteFightBack]

1. He's a great advocate and that is what he should be. nt

[PatSeg]

10. Yes, I always saw him as a great advocate,

an activist who helped inspire change, but I never for a single moment saw him in the White House. The traits that make a good advocate or activist are not necessarily ones that make a good president. Bernie can do more to bring about change outside the Oval Office.

[BannonsLiver]

2. The whole package is just unappealing

Also in the real world he’s not going to be able to wave a magic wand and get things done. It’s going to require him to work with others who have other views. I don’t think he has any ability to do that.

[KentuckyWoman]

4. I understand your point of view.

And I don't disagree. But not supporting him a President is a lot different that what seems to be the media and the political machine piling on to try and shut him down - period. That bothers me.

I'm NOT saying I don't support him BTW. I saying I understand those who don't. I haven't ruled him in or out. I'm really still deciding.

EDITED TO ADD THE NOT.

[BannonsLiver]

7. He brings a good deal of it on himself.

His surrogates and their rhetoric are quite nasty. If he changed those roles and got rid of the worst offenders it probably would do him a lot of good. There is a constant escalation of toxicity meant to elicit reaction and it’s hurting Bernie.

[emmaverybo]

3. Not the complaint I see here at DU. There are, however, complaints brought on by his

campaign style, not his passion for his agenda.

[Gothmog]

5. I agree with the NYT on this weakness/flaw

Link to tweet

[BlueMTexpat]

6. +a million or so! eom

[Thekaspervote]

15. Thank you NYT!!...so so true

[LiberalLovinLug]

25. Keep it coming

The more the corporate media, their owners and sponsors afraid of a fairer tax code, and establishment polticians, who cater to them, rail and gnash their teeth, the more popular he will get.

Interesting....they "see little advantage to exchanging one over-promising (conjecture) divisive figure (his supporters, no other supporters) in Washington for another"

An astonishing admission. To the NYT, they "see little advantage" (for the country?) if Trump wins or Sanders wins, if Sanders is our nominee. Think about that next time you quote this source.

[Gothmog]

28. What are sanders' legislative accomplishments??

I have never taken sanders seriously due to a complete lack of legislative accomplishments of sanders and the fact that I do not understand sanders voter revolution The NYT also did not understand how sanders voter revolution works

Link to tweet

Like the NYT, I have questions about this voter revolution concept. I have asked sanders supporters to explain this concept to me and so far no one seems to know how this voter revolution will work in the real world https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=430371

Gothmog (78,308 posts)
64. Exactly how does sanders voter revolution work in the real world?

It is my understanding that even sanders has acknowledged that he cannot adopt his platform unless he holds rallies and this voter revolution occurs. Is this correct? How does this voter revolution work in the real world? Again as I understand this concept, so many new voters will rise up and force the GOP to be reasonable. Is this correct? How many new voters does it take to accomplish this goal and where are these voters? How will these new voters force the GOP to be reasonable when so many GOP officeholders are in gerrymandered districts? Will these new voters move to these districts in time to vote for sanders’ platform? If these new voters are real, then why are theses new voters not showing up in the polls? New voters in such large numbers so as to cause the GOP to be reasonable should show up in polling. Are these new voters waiting for something? If these new voters really exist in the real world, why has sanders not used these new voters to get some meaningful legislation passed?

I look forward to answers to these questions

sanders interview with the NYT may have gone better if he had explained how this revolution would work in the real world. I am still curious

[LiberalLovinLug]

29. What that commentor Gothmog is basically saying is...

We must all just give in to the GOP. We must back someone that they approve of. And Fox News approves of. We must never get it into our heads that we as Democrats, can actually ever do anything that the GOP will disapprove of. As an example we will never convince over 50% why and how Medicare for All would be cheaper and cover their whole family all their lives.

And, maybe that is the truth. That the FDR Democrat is dead. And that the Right wing has finally won in all areas, so we must just continue to go cap in hand and at best be able to add some minor amendment to some billionaire tax cut bill, and thank them for it.

But FDR never gave in. He held rallies to support the New Deal. And guess what? He became one of the most popular Presidents ever.



I think Sanders too will go down as one of the most popular Presidents in history. Once he is given space to actually inform the public. When news networks will HAVE to show him speaking and educating.

[Gothmog]

30. So sanders has no legislative accomplishments and his voter revolution is a myth

Thank you confirming this. Why vote for someone who is incapable of accomplishing anything in the real world

[LiberalLovinLug]

35. So give in. Got it

And as far as Sanders accomplishments. Glad to be of service. Although Google is right there. And why would you not look at the life's work of a candidate, not just in the Senate. Obama did not have a lot of Senate "accomplishments" either.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/5/5/1855034/-Bernie-Sanders-is-an-accomplished-effective-leader-hope-you-read-this-and-learn-something-new

Bernie Sanders is an accomplished, effective leader (hope you read this and learn something new!)

From activist to mayor to U.S. Rep to U.S. Senator to Democratic policy trendsetter, Bernie Sanders has a long record of achievement

I’ve tried to keep this article relatively short — key word is relatively! — since I know folks prefer not to read long articles. If Bernie Sanders’s career were short and unremarkable, my task would have been easier! ....

[Gothmog]

39. You owe me a keyboard I laughed so hard at this silliness

Thank you for the laughs. Really, has sanders actually accomplished anything in the real world other than naming some post offices??

Again, the article you linked to is so very very funny.

[George II]

44. Author of that piece, "Rob in Vermont"!!! Bwahahahaha!

[The Polack MSgt]

34. So it's bend the knee to Sanders

Or I'm a sniveling DINO surrendering to the Trumpistas.

That is certainly persuasive. I see why he's so popular now.
So. This is how it works?

We'll all find out once we give him the office?

THEN he will explain how the magic beans will save us.

Nah. Hard pass from me bro.

[LiberalLovinLug]

36. Wow. That's what you got from my post?

I'd hate to be in your shoes. That's some choice you've given yourself. Yikes.

And hey, psssst.....you know what else will be a reality other than a President Sanders having to explain how Americans can pay for things like Medicare for All like every other decent democracy can, or rather repeat it as he's already done that......another reality which is even more important........Democrats will be elected! And any Democratic win means many more Democrats winning on his coat tails from straight line voters. So there's that.

[The Polack MSgt]

40. I realize that i'm old and live in the sticks

So my opinion is discounted on this forum, but where exactly is Senator Sanders popular?

Not in Illinois.

He won't have long coatails here.

And although most of tbe world has subsidized healthcare, state administeted single payer is not even close to universal

Telling the millions of people who have health insurance that we need to suck it up and get medixare because you say so is a losing propistion.

So is identifying as a fucking socialist.

So is mis- identifying Scandanavian capitalist democracies as Socialist countries. Social services and extensive welfare policies are not socialism.

State control of production and distribution of goods and services are the identifying features of socialism - and the US spent 50+ years fighting that shit.

Last time I brought that up here i was told that I was too dumb to understand.

But Sanders will get destroyed over this, and telling folks they are wrong is not a winning strategy.

I'm a capatalist and so is the Democratic Party. I will only vote for a Socialist if the other choice is a facist

[Fresh_Start]

51. sounds like Bernie is going to have vanity rallies just like trump

don't see that as actually doing anything good for the country or world.

[JoeOtterbein]

8. K n R ! Thanks for posting!

Bernie is a strong leader for his issues. Which is why Bernie will defeat Trump in November!

[George II]

45. And yet all of his issues are in fact law. BTW, he won't defeat trump in November....

....he'll have to be the nominee first.

[Happyhippychick]

9. My complaint is that no matter what the topic or question is, he goes to his exact same talking

Points on income inequality.

Again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.......

[sheshe2]

11. +1

[LiberalLovinLug]

26. Its true. Even for me.

It gets monotonous. But I also understand why. Republicans do it with lies. Repeat repeat repeat until those lies are taken as truth. Sanders repeats in order to allow TRUTH to sink in. Truth you do not hear at all on corporate media whose owners like things just the way they are thank you very much.

Sanders is also not very humorous. He is gruff, dishevelled, and a cranky old man at times. But we have to look past all that, to what he will bring to the country. And who is our best hope to defeat Trump. As last time, we need a candidate that is viewed as "anti-establishment" to some degree. The only way we will get enough votes.

[nolabear]

43. What's his foreign policy?

[delisen]

12. See Sanders as an authoritarian and not at all "revolutionary"

[comradebillyboy]

24. Great obsertvation!

[Skid Rogue]

13. No, absolutely not.

It's that he will not defeat Donald Trump, pure and simple.

[oasis]

14. Only Bernie could get his surrogates to cut down on the Biden bashing.

Is that too much to ask of "Unbendable" Bernie?

[Thekaspervote]

16. Must be!!

[Prosper]

17. The people Bernie represents have been boldly, openly, purposefully abused of their birthright.

Why should the people who lost everything be represented by a man who is willing to give even more of what they don’t have. But that is a ploy worked well by the radical right. Bernie’s back is against a solid wall. Asking the hourly working class to give up something they don’t have would not be too much from the right.

[ehrnst]

18. The Democratic Party has been serving and helping way longer and much more effectively

those who have been abused of their birthright.

Especially those whose lives and specific issues have been marginalized by the dismissive term, "identity politics."

[Recursion]

19. He takes "unwavering" too far

People say "he's been saying the same thing for 40 years", and I agree, I just don't see that as a good thing.

I think he really, really wants to win the 1980 Presidential election. And I see that as a huge problem.

[MineralMan]

20. Yes. The problem with that attitude is that running a nation as diverse

as the United States is will always require deviations from rigid, fixed ideas. A leader who cannot bend will soon be broken.

[LanternWaste]

21. One side of the road sees 'unwavering', the other 'rigid and mulish.'

Each perspective as valid as the other.

Thankfully though, no one Democrat (candidate as well as voter) is shutting anyone else down, and after the primaries are over we'll all be back on track.

[ehrnst]

22. Working well with a team and diplomacy are vital skills for an effective POTUS...

Along with the ability to admit when you have made a mistake, so you are able to learn from it.

That factors into my choice.

[Amimnoch]

23. A really poor choice for POTUS of the USA, and this is EXACTLY a major reason why.

Almost all of the major campaign positions are not something ANY POTUS will be able to pass or enact to any effective extent unilaterally. Almost all of the campaign positions will require congressional bills.

Take just one, and one of the hottest of campaign issues: MFA/Healthcare insurance reform.

None of the proposals are at all feasible without a congress that will pass bills for the POTUS to sign.

Even though he's for shoring up and enhancing the ACA and not for MFA, does anyone believe for one second that a President Biden wouldn't sign a MFA that gets through congress? I trust in a President Biden to sign off on and pass ANY hard fought for legislation that is Democratic Party championed that makes its way through both chambers of Congress.

Even though she's for MFA and not in favor of enhancing the ACA, does anyone believe for one second that a President Warren wouldn't sign a bill that enhances the ACA that manages to get through congress? I trust in a President Warren to sign off on and pass ANY hard fought for legislation that is Democratic Party championed that makes its way through both chambers of Congress.

Out of all our Candidates, BS is the ONLY candidate that I don't trust.. at ALL.. to pass any legislation that is less than perfect and meets his purity tests. I can very realistically see no healthcare at all progressing under him, even if we do get a congressional majority, because it is HIGHLY likely that there won't be the roll-call votes (especially in the Senate) to get what he champions passed.. but there "may" be a senate that can pass some compromise, less than perfect version (much like the ACA itself) that does move our national healthcare forward another increment.

It's this very trait of his that you point out that makes him completely and 100% unqualified to ever receive my support. I don't need or want a Democratic Party version of Trump in the White House. I want someone who brings dignity, and will compromise where needed to move us forward in the right (or left) direction again.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

27. The complaint isn't that Bernie wants a better, more just society; it's that

he seems to think that only his notions of how that goal should be pursued are valid and that all other ideas are not only wrong but evidence that the people who would favor any different path to that goal are closet Republicans or tools of the "establishment" or capitalist sellouts. "Only I can fix it," which is what he's basically saying, is not an attitude that ought to be encouraged, as we should have figured out by now.

[LiberalLovinLug]

31. But Medicare for All CAN fix the high cost and unavaibility of medical care

A higher minimum wage WILL be good for workers, and the economy putting more take home pay in pockets. As are the other issues he shares with his peers like Climate Change is real. Maternity leave. etc.

Not once has he bragged that "only I can fix it". His practical policies can though. Its just that those policies, which are normal everyday programs in every other western democracy, even those with Conservative governments because of the cost savings, are painted by not only the GOP and Fox News, but by the MSM news and even other Democrats who should know better as not practical, but radical.

And every candidate could be framed as "only I can fix it!" Isn't that the whole point of the primaries? Shouldn't every candidate have a belief that they are the best equipped out of the competition? That their policies are the best approach? Do other candidates not believe in their own platforms or ability?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

33. Maybe. But Warren wants some kind of M4A as well - but that isn't good enough.

She is dismissed by many Sandersites as just another capitalist tool, too. And the other Democrats who think maybe a different path to the agreed-upon goal of universal coverage is more achievable, practical, affordable, whatever, are looked down upon as worse than capitalist tools - they are deemed to be just as bad as Republicans. Bernie and his followers seem to be unable to distinguish between imperfect friends and mortal enemies. It's all binary with no room for discussion. Bernie = Good. Everybody else = Bad.

[LiberalLovinLug]

37. You are falling for the disinformation campaign about "Bernie Bros"

I for one would be stoked for a Warren win. Because its firstly about the platform. Then I look to who has the most experience, is more popular, and has the best shot at it. And so I have to go with Sanders for now.

This obsession with a fringe group of Sanders supporters and this painting of all Sanders supporters as being so rigid and dogmatic and mean and abusive and.....whatever else they can think of is dumb. You can see those kinds of blinders on other supporters as well. I also think, as was proven by journalists last time, many of those voices are Putin or GOP trolls trying to stoke division. But also, what's wrong with passion? Passion for a candidate wins elections.

Of course you overlook the fact that of ALL the supporters, Sanders supporters should be given the most leeway in being the most on edge and wary based on those past DNC leaked emalls. As well as hearing prominent influential Democrats like Obama and Hillary come out against him. I think most every Sanders supporter is much more level headed though. Some here sound like they will not vote Blue if its You Know Who. I will certainly support any Democrat that wins the nomination, even if I think its only voting for treading water.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

47. I'd accept that argument if it weren't for the fact that a lot of this my-way-or-the-highway,

everybody-sucks-but-Bernie crap is coming from his senior campaign staff - Jill Stein fans like Gray, Turner and Sirota. It's not just the angry incel Bernie Bros in mom's basement or anonymous Russian Twitter trolls - if it was just them I wouldn't care - but it's the people he's paying to represent him. I once was an enthusiastic Sanders supporter, but not any more. After the shenanigans at the 2016 convention and the hiring of staff who apparently hate the Democratic Party and trash it at every opportunity, I've come to realize that Bernie's rigidity, as demonstrated by the people who work for him, means he'd be an ineffective and divisive president.

[LiberalLovinLug]

48. I thought I remembered you as a Sanders fan

I didn't imagine it then. There are some handles that one remembers in the back of ones mind as being allies in thinking. But then I saw all these quite strong anti-Bernie posts, joining in with all his long time antagonists in here.

I guess my viewpoint is that I don't think Sanders staff makes any more mistakes and/or deliberate moves or statements, than others. In fact, with others the candidates are even involved, Biden claiming a video was "doctored", when one could find many other examples of him saying the same thing about SS and Medicare. Warren milking a private conversation with Sanders to promote a false impression, right before and during a debate, if you look at Sanders history on the topic.

Which is why what I concentrate on is the actual platforms. And who has not flip flopped. Who has the longest record fighting for workers and for a more egalitarian society. Whose policies will help America most. Whose not afraid to take on Wall Street. Who has the most progressive bold ideas. Because, as Trump proved, America is in the mood for big ideas. The right and the left. Just as the right got excited about The Wall, race baiting, etc...there are a whole lot of disenchanted Democrats that want to get excited about a nominee who pushes against the establishment and offers real change.

Both Warren and Sanders fit that bill. I don't concern myself with these stories about staff, and whether they worked with Greens, or Republicans, before. I stick to the issues, and the experience and reputation for consistency and principle of the candidate themselves.

I am curious why you would criticize Sanders not officially conceding until he was required to, when the reason he did it was to get more progressive policy into the Democratic platform. Such as minimum wage increase sooner. It was never about thinking he might still pull it off...if was about squeezing in a bit more advantages for the American worker. Why do folks look at that as a bad thing? If one cares more about the actual progress of policy, than following some DNC precedent. At the time, if you recall, almost everyone assumed Hillary would win. Besides, it seems like it was Sanders and his supporters that should have been pissed at that time at how the DNC had to admit they where working closely with the Clinton camp. Those were the real "shenagigans" going on back then, IMO

Anyways. there is a clear bias in here against Sanders. Just looking at his support % in here, compared to nationally where he is either neck and neck or leading. Supporters seem to be systematically culled. Its a dangerous game defending him in here. I'm treading on thin ice myself. Cheers.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

49. I turned off Bernie for more reasons than I just stated,

but policy is secondary to this discussion - because if I was looking only for someone who was promoting a progressive policy agenda, Warren would be my first choice anyhow. For one thing, she actually has worked out the math and an explanation of how she'd pay for M4A, for example. Some experts don't agree with her numbers but at least she has numbers. Of all the candidates, regardless of their places on the political spectrum (and when you get right down to it there really isn't much ideological difference between any of them, just disagreements about how to arrive at the goals they all agree to), only Bernie has the attitude that he, and only he, has the single correct approach. He is the only candidate whose campaign staff, surrogates and bros in their moms' basements consistently trash other Democrats and the party itself. He is a divisive, rigid ideologue, something I did not recognize in 2016 but do now. I am not alone. I was hanging out with a few ex-Bernie supporters not too long ago and we all agreed that we're totally over Bernie.

Right now I'm undecided who I will vote for in my state's primary, except that I know that it won't be Bernie. I will be voting for the candidate who seems most likely to beat Trump, and for that one huge existential reason I don't give even the tiniest fuck about whether they're promising free college and the triumph of the proletariat.

[LiberalLovinLug]

52. Fair enough

IMO most of all that anti-Bernie stuff is manufactured bullshit. And there are problems with staff that come up with every campaign.

Also never understood the "Bernie has the attitude that he, and only he, has the single correct approach" as if he is on par with Trump's overbloated bragging. When has Sanders ever bragged that way? Does he believe in his own platform? With a passion? Yes. But I don't see that as a negative. If it's his gruff exterior, his near humorless personality, or that he's yet another old white man, I could understand somewhat. But its totally unfair to use some fake smear like "bros in their moms' basements" as a reason not to support someone. People could separate Hillary's PUMA supporters who vowed to not vote for Obama, from Hillary the candidate. I think people are being manipulated into piling onto Sanders and bestowing onto him traits he doesn't have, and at the same time bestowing onto his staff traits that every other campaign has too. I will say, they are doing a good job. I'm baffled at how many good people are led along by those who have an agenda of preventing him from winning. That's my opinion. We agree to disagree. I don't mind arguing. I know we will all come together under the final choice. Vote Blue no matter Who!

[guillaumeb]

32. Recommended.

Very well argued.

And he is helping to push what is considered doable to the left. As the GOP moves farther to the right, what the US media calls the middle is actually moderate right wing politics.

[Blue_Tires]

38. So in other words he's a wannabe despot?

Does he think he'll just TELL congress and the supreme court what to do??

[Gothmog]

41. Why did sanders call for cuts to social security?

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

42. Why did sanders call for cuts to social security?

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[NCProgressive]

46. Unwavering means nothing gets done

It is like a homeowner selling a house who gets many offers below the asking price and unwavers from his asking price. The house doesn't sell and goes into foreclosure.

Life involves bargaining. Sticking to one point of view is a weakness.

[boomer_wv]

50. This

You end up with another Trump presidency where everything you do gets erased the first day you're gone.

[LakeArenal]

53. Yes.