Charles Pierce wonders if Sanders attracts the Democratic equivalent of the incel boys

[BeyondGeography]

Wednesday was a very good day to stay off the electric Twitter machine if you could arrange it. The Democratic debate on Tuesday night was decidedly cool and low-key, but the takes coming off it are flash-boiling the lakes of Naboo. Most of these are coming from supporters of varying degrees of anonymity attached to Senator Professor Warren and Bernie Sanders. There was the predictably idiotic concentration on—and overreaction to—a short episode at the end of the debate, when Warren and Sanders seemed to have an angry moment in the presence of Tom Steyer. The continuing barrage rivals only moderator Wolf Blitzer’s obvious lust for a fight between candidates and a war in the Middle East.

..Because Biden skated as thoroughly as he did, and because the other three leading candidates performed with surpassing ennui, the Warren-Sanders business is going to be what people take away from Tuesday night. I have no idea what was said during the famous conversation about whether a woman can be elected president. But the response from the Sanders supporters, especially on the electric Twitter machine, has been so hysterically over the top—Responding with snake emojis? That’s only the oldest misogynistic smear of all time, going all the way back to Genesis.—that it does make me wonder whether or not there’s something in that campaign that attracts the Democratic equivalent of the incel boys. I hope it stops soon, but I doubt that it will.

If the Sanders people want to go down in history as the campaign that kneecapped two talented, accomplished women, that’s their decision. I thought Warren recovered nicely with her bit about how she and Klobuchar were the only two people on the stage who’d never lost an election. Other than that, the debate was little more than a reminder that starting this process off in Iowa is no way to elect a president of this whole country...

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a30530883/elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-feud-democratic-debate-joe-biden-skates/

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. "Incel boys...." All I can say is

WOW

[DURHAM D]

2. Bingo nt

[mopinko]

3. imho, russia is still on bernie's side.

and bernie likes it that way.
the bros have been out here, too.

[kwolf68]

42. WOW

Either Russia or misogyny right? That's the discourse here now?

[Otto Lidenbrock]

4. He and Yang have the most vocal online support

The difference is the Yang Gang is all about promoting their candidate. Sanders supporters are as much about tearing everyone else down who stands in their way.

[BeyondGeography]

7. Yang has brought insight, humor and joy

He's really quite a guy, IMO. These candidates set a tone and how their supporters conduct themselves usually has something to do with it.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

11. I like him. I don't think he has the right experience for the presidency, but

he seems like a very cool person, and I hope he does stay in politics in some way.

[PatSeg]

33. Yes

I think I would like him better in a different context. I definitely do not see anything presidential there though.

[CentralMass]

27. I see far more negativity directed at Sanders here then other candidates.

I believe that this is all a political op to to try and break Sanders momentum and break the goodwill between Sanders and Warren supporters.

IMO going negative is not going to help the Warren campaign.

[58Sunliner]

5. Bwaaahhaaa. Duly noted.

[SidDithers]

6. DU rec...nt

Sid

[dalton99a]

8. Kick

[Tom Rinaldo]

9. Sanders does have some followers that get real ugly but I've never met one in person and I know many

I have Zero doubt that Sanders also "has" a lot of bots posing as his supporters for the sake of inflaming divisions within the Democratic coalition, and to advance efforts to suppress our collective vote once our nominee is chosen. I've been a part of grass roots activist politics for over 50 years. I am well aware that there is always a fringe element. Centrists rarely if ever attract a fringe element. It is always someone who is seen as representing one end of the viable political spectrum who they flock to, because there is no one else out there closer to their views who has any chance of winning. Sanders inherits some supporters with more extreme views and anti-social tendencies for that reason. He also attracts some people who would vote for the Green Party if Sanders is not on the ballot, but who will vote Democratic if he is. None of that represents the core of his support.

[getagrip_already]

12. has he disavowed them?

It's one thing to have bots pretending to be supporters. It's another if you remain silent and don't denounce bad behavior.

Does he correct people who ask offensive questions?

If he has, I haven't seen it.

[Tom Rinaldo]

19. From what I've seen, and I don't pretend to monitor inner workings of campaigns...

He tends to give his green type supporters space to express their own independence from, and at times dissatisfaction with, the two party system. But I have seen Sanders disavow and attempt to discourage, for example, sexist comments from those who claim to support him, and he has condemned cyber stalking type behavior from those who claim to support him. I am just me, not a staffer for anyone, so I don't keep a data base of statements relevant to issues and stances. I don't save links so don't ask me for them.

I am aware that there are many who feel Sanders should be more outspoken than he has been on this front. No candidate can stay on message if they spend too much of their time repudiating the negative behavior of anonymous posters on the internet who claim to be supporters. That could an invitation to getting totally sidetracked by repeatedly responding to the behavior of malicious bots who can generate outrages at will. But clearly sometimes disavowals are in order and some feel Sanders makes them too infrequently.

[Thekaspervote]

22. Indeed!! Why is sanders not speaking up!!

[PatSeg]

34. I agree

He needs to show more control over his campaign and firmly disavow the ugly politics coming from supporters and even his own campaign. I know some of it is from trolls and bots, but he still needs to speak out. This is not the kind of management and organization one would want in a president.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. But Bernie's "fringe element" seems to be fringier than anyone else's.

I suspect that the reason he attracts bros and incel types and other people (mostly men, it seems) who spend a lot of time ranting on the Internet is that he himself seems angry most of the time. Anger attracts more anger, and Bernie is almost as relentlessly angry and negative as Trump himself. Angry candidates tend to have angry supporters. Some may be bots and trolls, but there are plenty of real people who are taking out their anger on the other candidates (for being insufficiently pure, I guess) - remember when Bernie fans tried to disrupt the DNC convention because they didn't like the outcome?

[PatSeg]

35. Well said

I had never thought about his anger attracting other angry people. I know he sees it as righteous indignation, but it comes across as constant anger and it is exhausting. I've had enough of men yelling at me to last several lifetimes.

[Cha]

41. Yes, excellent analysis.

[Hekate]

17. I actually sympathize with your analysis, Tom, and appreciate your lifetime of grassroots work...

My biggest concern is that Bernie never disavows the words or behavior of those who claim to be his supporters when they do something that hurts his reputation. The misogyny is real, and there's no need to dredge up examples -- for one thing, half the population already gets it (or will get it by the time they're 10 years out of college).

Sure, some (maybe a lot) are bots -- but some also are real people, and it has really stung to read about their behavior and get nothing but crickets from the great man himself. How hard would it be, actually, for him to say: "There is no place in this campaign for such-and-such behavior" ?

[Tom Rinaldo]

21. Thank you Hekate. And I am sympathetic to your concern also

Honestly the closest I can come to addressing it is what I wrote above in post #19. If I were a senior campaign advisor to Sanders I would recommend that he be more aggressive along the lines that you suggest. But I do see how it can become quicksand for a presidential candidate to be expected to monitor and continually criticize the ongoing behavior of anonymous supporters in particular. Campaigns almost invariably are losing when their time is diverted to that type of defensive posture.

And I've spent enough time online in Sanders related threads to be aware that some supporters become angered by seemingly endless attacks on Sanders and those who support him also. I can't count how often I've seen those who support Sanders for deeply felt sincere and honorable convictions lumped in together and dismissed as Bernie Bro's and generally disagreeable rabble in broad brush attacks upon them. That also feeds into resentment and an escalation of tensions between camps.

Again, I don't actively track this stuff but I have a very clear memory of at least one high profile statement in the 2016 campaign, in relation to reports of cyberstalking, when Bernie precisely said something along the lines of "There is no place in this campaign for such-and-such behavior". And more recently, last year, there was his high profile admission of sexism within elements of his campaign, an apology for it, and a disavowal of it. Personally I would urge Sanders to speak out along these lines more often, though for tactical reasons probably not as often as you might prefer.

If I felt that Sanders personally had any more than minimal background radiation levels (for a man of his age) of misogyny within him, I could not support him for President.

[kwolf68]

43. He is NOT a misogynist

Name calling so we won't discuss policies this nation really needs.

[tinrobot]

28. I've met quite a few, and they've really turned me off to him as a candidate.

I had to mute several Facebook friends in 2016 who were Bernie zealots. A few of these people were genuine friends I've known for decades. Whatever pro-Bernie memes or propaganda they were consuming turned them into very ugly people.

At the time, I couldn't even post anything about Hillary without getting torrents of negativity from them. It was consistent and unyielding. It almost destroyed my friendships with two of them.

That experience has left a really bad taste in my mouth when it comes to Sanders. I agree with many of his policies, but his supporters scare me. Because of that, he is off my list of primary candidates I'll vote for.

[Hekate]

10. Ooooh, a Charlie Pierce burn that will leave a mark. Better him than me is all I can say!

I mean -- snake emojis?

[Thekaspervote]

24. Right big ouch!!

[wyldwolf]

14. Same behavior patterns

Incels are really loud on comic book / sci fi sites. Some Sanders Supporters act the same, along with Johnny Depp stans. Crazed fandom is crazed fandom.

[Act_of_Reparation]

16. Okie dokie

Incels are really loud on comic book / sci fi sites. Some Sanders Supporters act the same, along with Johnny Depp stans.

[TomCADem]

15. He's Wrong. Bernie Attracts People Who Hate the Democratic Party

The Nader/Jill Stein types. Rather than build a movement, he elevates himself by pushing a false equivalence between the Republican/Democratic "establishment."

You would think it is clear that we need to beat Trump and Republicans, but Bernie sells the idea that the Democratic "establishment" is no different.

So, contrary to Pierce, I think Bernie's supporters define themselves by their opposition to Democrats.

[Thekaspervote]

25. Sad!!

[tinrobot]

29. Opposition to everything, actually.

The few hard-core supporters I know love being outsiders who criticize everything. They use that opposition as a way to differentiate themselves from society and boost their egos.

Bernie speaks to them because he's the ultimate outsider dispensing criticism. They eat it up.

[mcar]

18. Kick

[Demsrule86]

20. K&R

[SunSeeker]

23. K & R

[Butterflylady]

26. I see Sanders now

As a man that got beat by a woman.

[TygrBright]

30. Meh... Most of the candidates have an asshole brigade in support

Last edited Wed Jan 15, 2020, 03:37 PM - Edit history (1)

...whether they want them or not.

And spending time squishing Social Media earwigs is about the least productive use of campaign resources. Candidates can generally handle their asshole brigade by pointedly NOT being assholes themselves, and occasionally commenting on their own distaste for particular earwig behaviors such as manifesting misogyny or xenophobia or homophobia or racism or the use of childish epithets, etc.

Bernie's asshole brigade is certainly large, noisy, and repulsive, but chances are a good percentage are bots and trolls playing unpleasant games.

He probably could get some mileage out of noting occasionally that those who express support for him while manifesting the worst excesses of childish trollery are certainly not representative of the candidate's own standards and expectations of adult behavior.

He would get MORE mileage out of being able to make a credible claim that his campaign and his staff hold similar standards and enforce them rigorously, including not hiring or immediately firing the ham-handed doofuses who have themselves engaged in such behavior in the past and seem unable to resist temptation to revisit it on occasion.

Unfortunately, they don't seem to regard that as a sufficiently worthwhile priority to devote time and resources to screening, doing basic social media searches, etc.

And THAT is what makes me a bit leery of him even as I heartily agree with many of his policy positions.

It's an issue of priorities, ethics, and standards of behavior, and they've spent a lot of time on rocky ground there, and done little to rectify their mistakes.

skeptically,
Bright

[BeyondGeography]

32. Same here

He has given a Democratic Party that was too content with the economic status quo a much needed wake-up call, but he has shown zero leadership in terms of setting a tone that would elevate the baser instincts of his followers. The end result is the divisiveness that an insurgent inspires (not his fault) accompanied by too much ugliness (that’s at least in part on you, Bernie).

[PatSeg]

37. "not hiring or immediately firing

the ham-handed doofuses"........exactly. Other candidates do it all the time. The tone and attitude starts from the top and it is up to the candidate to control his/her campaign.

I also agree with Sanders on many policy positions and have for many years, but being president is about more than good ideas. It is an administrative job and how a candidate runs his campaign is a reflection on what kind of administrator he or she is.

[Cha]

38. ".. chances are.. "? Got proof?

[TygrBright]

39. I refer you to the Troll/Bot Population theorem:

Given a discrete internet user identity population (IUIDP) tree T with a root, and given social media source vertices v, w, where v represents non-troll human users and w is the unknown quantity of bots and trolls, call validation w a successor of v if the unique path from the root to w contains v, and call w an immediate successor of v if additionally the path from to v to w contains no other vertex.

Take population X to be a partially ordered set. If Tsub1, Tsub2 are rooted trees with vertices labeled in X, we say that Tsub1 is inf-embeddable in Tsub2 and write Tsub1 leq Tsub2 if there is an injective map F from the vertices of Tsub1 to the vertices of Tsub2 such that

-For all vertices v of Tsub1, the label of v precedes the label of F(v),
-If w is any successor of v in Tsub1, then F(w) is a successor of F(v), and
-If wsub1, wsub2 are any two distinct immediate successors of v, then the path from F(wsub1) to F(wsub2) in Tsub2 contains F(v).

The Troll/Bot Population theorem then states:

If X is well-quasi-ordered, then the set of rooted trees with labels in X is well-quasi-ordered under the inf-embeddable order defined above. (That is to say, given any infinite sequence Tsub1, Tsub2... of rooted trees labeled in X, there is some i<j so that Tsubi leq Tsubj.)

Proof: For a countable label set X, the Troll/Bot Population theorem can be expressed and proven using second-order arithmetic. However, like Goodstein's theorem or the Paris–Harrington theorem, some special cases and variants of the theorem can be expressed in subsystems of second-order arithmetic much weaker than the subsystems where they can be proved. This was first observed by Harvey Friedman in the early 1980s, an early success of the then-nascent field of reverse mathematics. In the case where the trees above are taken to be unlabeled (that is, in the case where X has order one), Friedman found that the result was unprovable in ATR0, thus giving the first example of a predicative result with a provably impredicative proof. This case of the theorem is still provable in ?1
1-CA0, but by adding a "gap condition" to the definition of the order on trees above, Friedman found a natural variation of the theorem unprovable in this system.

helpfully,
Bright

[58Sunliner]

40. Troll/Bot Population theorem-Looks like this page, cut and pasted.

It's Kruskal's tree theorem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruskal%27s_tree_theorem.
But please feel free to actually do the math.
Theorem is not hard proof in this case-it's about probabilities and possibilities.

[Beringia]

31. Nice name calling

a devious way to attack someone instead of going after their positions or their experience.

[Skidmore]

36. I don't doubt it

Last edited Wed Jan 15, 2020, 04:51 PM - Edit history (2)

I responded to another woman's comment about Warren and the dustup yesterday. We were instantly swarmed by a combination of what appeared to be bros and Magats. Two distinct groups of males but both attack us as women. I was so threatened by this sort of thing last election that I quit using social media during the primary, even here. Not this time. I don't back down.

[NYMinute]

44. Incel boys? Many can think of worse comparisons

In any event, we have seen this kneecapping movie before. It is one of the reasons I'd never vote for BS in the primaries and why he wouldn't be the nominee.