Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumCharles Pierce wonders if Sanders attracts the Democratic equivalent of the incel boys
..Because Biden skated as thoroughly as he did, and because the other three leading candidates performed with surpassing ennui, the Warren-Sanders business is going to be what people take away from Tuesday night. I have no idea what was said during the famous conversation about whether a woman can be elected president. But the response from the Sanders supporters, especially on the electric Twitter machine, has been so hysterically over the topResponding with snake emojis? Thats only the oldest misogynistic smear of all time, going all the way back to Genesis.that it does make me wonder whether or not theres something in that campaign that attracts the Democratic equivalent of the incel boys. I hope it stops soon, but I doubt that it will.
If the Sanders people want to go down in history as the campaign that kneecapped two talented, accomplished women, thats their decision. I thought Warren recovered nicely with her bit about how she and Klobuchar were the only two people on the stage whod never lost an election. Other than that, the debate was little more than a reminder that starting this process off in Iowa is no way to elect a president of this whole country...
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a30530883/elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-feud-democratic-debate-joe-biden-skates/
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DURHAM D
(32,603 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mopinko
(69,982 posts)and bernie likes it that way.
the bros have been out here, too.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Either Russia or misogyny right? That's the discourse here now?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Otto Lidenbrock
(581 posts)The difference is the Yang Gang is all about promoting their candidate. Sanders supporters are as much about tearing everyone else down who stands in their way.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BeyondGeography
(39,341 posts)He's really quite a guy, IMO. These candidates set a tone and how their supporters conduct themselves usually has something to do with it.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,576 posts)he seems like a very cool person, and I hope he does stay in politics in some way.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PatSeg
(47,239 posts)I think I would like him better in a different context. I definitely do not see anything presidential there though.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)I believe that this is all a political op to to try and break Sanders momentum and break the goodwill between Sanders and Warren supporters.
IMO going negative is not going to help the Warren campaign.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
58Sunliner
(4,372 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dalton99a
(81,386 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)I have Zero doubt that Sanders also "has" a lot of bots posing as his supporters for the sake of inflaming divisions within the Democratic coalition, and to advance efforts to suppress our collective vote once our nominee is chosen. I've been a part of grass roots activist politics for over 50 years. I am well aware that there is always a fringe element. Centrists rarely if ever attract a fringe element. It is always someone who is seen as representing one end of the viable political spectrum who they flock to, because there is no one else out there closer to their views who has any chance of winning. Sanders inherits some supporters with more extreme views and anti-social tendencies for that reason. He also attracts some people who would vote for the Green Party if Sanders is not on the ballot, but who will vote Democratic if he is. None of that represents the core of his support.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
getagrip_already
(14,605 posts)It's one thing to have bots pretending to be supporters. It's another if you remain silent and don't denounce bad behavior.
Does he correct people who ask offensive questions?
If he has, I haven't seen it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)He tends to give his green type supporters space to express their own independence from, and at times dissatisfaction with, the two party system. But I have seen Sanders disavow and attempt to discourage, for example, sexist comments from those who claim to support him, and he has condemned cyber stalking type behavior from those who claim to support him. I am just me, not a staffer for anyone, so I don't keep a data base of statements relevant to issues and stances. I don't save links so don't ask me for them.
I am aware that there are many who feel Sanders should be more outspoken than he has been on this front. No candidate can stay on message if they spend too much of their time repudiating the negative behavior of anonymous posters on the internet who claim to be supporters. That could an invitation to getting totally sidetracked by repeatedly responding to the behavior of malicious bots who can generate outrages at will. But clearly sometimes disavowals are in order and some feel Sanders makes them too infrequently.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Thekaspervote
(32,691 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PatSeg
(47,239 posts)He needs to show more control over his campaign and firmly disavow the ugly politics coming from supporters and even his own campaign. I know some of it is from trolls and bots, but he still needs to speak out. This is not the kind of management and organization one would want in a president.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,576 posts)I suspect that the reason he attracts bros and incel types and other people (mostly men, it seems) who spend a lot of time ranting on the Internet is that he himself seems angry most of the time. Anger attracts more anger, and Bernie is almost as relentlessly angry and negative as Trump himself. Angry candidates tend to have angry supporters. Some may be bots and trolls, but there are plenty of real people who are taking out their anger on the other candidates (for being insufficiently pure, I guess) - remember when Bernie fans tried to disrupt the DNC convention because they didn't like the outcome?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PatSeg
(47,239 posts)I had never thought about his anger attracting other angry people. I know he sees it as righteous indignation, but it comes across as constant anger and it is exhausting. I've had enough of men yelling at me to last several lifetimes.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cha
(296,778 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hekate
(90,538 posts)My biggest concern is that Bernie never disavows the words or behavior of those who claim to be his supporters when they do something that hurts his reputation. The misogyny is real, and there's no need to dredge up examples -- for one thing, half the population already gets it (or will get it by the time they're 10 years out of college).
Sure, some (maybe a lot) are bots -- but some also are real people, and it has really stung to read about their behavior and get nothing but crickets from the great man himself. How hard would it be, actually, for him to say: "There is no place in this campaign for such-and-such behavior" ?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)Honestly the closest I can come to addressing it is what I wrote above in post #19. If I were a senior campaign advisor to Sanders I would recommend that he be more aggressive along the lines that you suggest. But I do see how it can become quicksand for a presidential candidate to be expected to monitor and continually criticize the ongoing behavior of anonymous supporters in particular. Campaigns almost invariably are losing when their time is diverted to that type of defensive posture.
And I've spent enough time online in Sanders related threads to be aware that some supporters become angered by seemingly endless attacks on Sanders and those who support him also. I can't count how often I've seen those who support Sanders for deeply felt sincere and honorable convictions lumped in together and dismissed as Bernie Bro's and generally disagreeable rabble in broad brush attacks upon them. That also feeds into resentment and an escalation of tensions between camps.
Again, I don't actively track this stuff but I have a very clear memory of at least one high profile statement in the 2016 campaign, in relation to reports of cyberstalking, when Bernie precisely said something along the lines of "There is no place in this campaign for such-and-such behavior". And more recently, last year, there was his high profile admission of sexism within elements of his campaign, an apology for it, and a disavowal of it. Personally I would urge Sanders to speak out along these lines more often, though for tactical reasons probably not as often as you might prefer.
If I felt that Sanders personally had any more than minimal background radiation levels (for a man of his age) of misogyny within him, I could not support him for President.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
kwolf68
(7,365 posts)Name calling so we won't discuss policies this nation really needs.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
tinrobot
(10,883 posts)I had to mute several Facebook friends in 2016 who were Bernie zealots. A few of these people were genuine friends I've known for decades. Whatever pro-Bernie memes or propaganda they were consuming turned them into very ugly people.
At the time, I couldn't even post anything about Hillary without getting torrents of negativity from them. It was consistent and unyielding. It almost destroyed my friendships with two of them.
That experience has left a really bad taste in my mouth when it comes to Sanders. I agree with many of his policies, but his supporters scare me. Because of that, he is off my list of primary candidates I'll vote for.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hekate
(90,538 posts)I mean -- snake emojis?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Thekaspervote
(32,691 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Incels are really loud on comic book / sci fi sites. Some Sanders Supporters act the same, along with Johnny Depp stans. Crazed fandom is crazed fandom.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
TomCADem
(17,382 posts)The Nader/Jill Stein types. Rather than build a movement, he elevates himself by pushing a false equivalence between the Republican/Democratic "establishment."
You would think it is clear that we need to beat Trump and Republicans, but Bernie sells the idea that the Democratic "establishment" is no different.
So, contrary to Pierce, I think Bernie's supporters define themselves by their opposition to Democrats.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Thekaspervote
(32,691 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
tinrobot
(10,883 posts)The few hard-core supporters I know love being outsiders who criticize everything. They use that opposition as a way to differentiate themselves from society and boost their egos.
Bernie speaks to them because he's the ultimate outsider dispensing criticism. They eat it up.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mcar
(42,278 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,455 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
SunSeeker
(51,504 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Butterflylady
(3,537 posts)As a man that got beat by a woman.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TygrBright
(20,753 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 15, 2020, 03:37 PM - Edit history (1)
...whether they want them or not.
And spending time squishing Social Media earwigs is about the least productive use of campaign resources. Candidates can generally handle their asshole brigade by pointedly NOT being assholes themselves, and occasionally commenting on their own distaste for particular earwig behaviors such as manifesting misogyny or xenophobia or homophobia or racism or the use of childish epithets, etc.
Bernie's asshole brigade is certainly large, noisy, and repulsive, but chances are a good percentage are bots and trolls playing unpleasant games.
He probably could get some mileage out of noting occasionally that those who express support for him while manifesting the worst excesses of childish trollery are certainly not representative of the candidate's own standards and expectations of adult behavior.
He would get MORE mileage out of being able to make a credible claim that his campaign and his staff hold similar standards and enforce them rigorously, including not hiring or immediately firing the ham-handed doofuses who have themselves engaged in such behavior in the past and seem unable to resist temptation to revisit it on occasion.
Unfortunately, they don't seem to regard that as a sufficiently worthwhile priority to devote time and resources to screening, doing basic social media searches, etc.
And THAT is what makes me a bit leery of him even as I heartily agree with many of his policy positions.
It's an issue of priorities, ethics, and standards of behavior, and they've spent a lot of time on rocky ground there, and done little to rectify their mistakes.
skeptically,
Bright
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BeyondGeography
(39,341 posts)He has given a Democratic Party that was too content with the economic status quo a much needed wake-up call, but he has shown zero leadership in terms of setting a tone that would elevate the baser instincts of his followers. The end result is the divisiveness that an insurgent inspires (not his fault) accompanied by too much ugliness (thats at least in part on you, Bernie).
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
PatSeg
(47,239 posts)the ham-handed doofuses"........exactly. Other candidates do it all the time. The tone and attitude starts from the top and it is up to the candidate to control his/her campaign.
I also agree with Sanders on many policy positions and have for many years, but being president is about more than good ideas. It is an administrative job and how a candidate runs his campaign is a reflection on what kind of administrator he or she is.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cha
(296,778 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TygrBright
(20,753 posts)Given a discrete internet user identity population (IUIDP) tree T with a root, and given social media source vertices v, w, where v represents non-troll human users and w is the unknown quantity of bots and trolls, call validation w a successor of v if the unique path from the root to w contains v, and call w an immediate successor of v if additionally the path from to v to w contains no other vertex.
Take population X to be a partially ordered set. If Tsub1, Tsub2 are rooted trees with vertices labeled in X, we say that Tsub1 is inf-embeddable in Tsub2 and write Tsub1 leq Tsub2 if there is an injective map F from the vertices of Tsub1 to the vertices of Tsub2 such that
-For all vertices v of Tsub1, the label of v precedes the label of F(v),
-If w is any successor of v in Tsub1, then F(w) is a successor of F(v), and
-If wsub1, wsub2 are any two distinct immediate successors of v, then the path from F(wsub1) to F(wsub2) in Tsub2 contains F(v).
The Troll/Bot Population theorem then states:
If X is well-quasi-ordered, then the set of rooted trees with labels in X is well-quasi-ordered under the inf-embeddable order defined above. (That is to say, given any infinite sequence Tsub1, Tsub2... of rooted trees labeled in X, there is some i<j so that Tsubi leq Tsubj.)
Proof: For a countable label set X, the Troll/Bot Population theorem can be expressed and proven using second-order arithmetic. However, like Goodstein's theorem or the ParisHarrington theorem, some special cases and variants of the theorem can be expressed in subsystems of second-order arithmetic much weaker than the subsystems where they can be proved. This was first observed by Harvey Friedman in the early 1980s, an early success of the then-nascent field of reverse mathematics. In the case where the trees above are taken to be unlabeled (that is, in the case where X has order one), Friedman found that the result was unprovable in ATR0, thus giving the first example of a predicative result with a provably impredicative proof. This case of the theorem is still provable in ?1
1-CA0, but by adding a "gap condition" to the definition of the order on trees above, Friedman found a natural variation of the theorem unprovable in this system.
helpfully,
Bright
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
58Sunliner
(4,372 posts)It's Kruskal's tree theorem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruskal%27s_tree_theorem.
But please feel free to actually do the math.
Theorem is not hard proof in this case-it's about probabilities and possibilities.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Beringia
(4,316 posts)a devious way to attack someone instead of going after their positions or their experience.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 15, 2020, 04:51 PM - Edit history (2)
I responded to another woman's comment about Warren and the dustup yesterday. We were instantly swarmed by a combination of what appeared to be bros and Magats. Two distinct groups of males but both attack us as women. I was so threatened by this sort of thing last election that I quit using social media during the primary, even here. Not this time. I don't back down.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NYMinute
(3,256 posts)In any event, we have seen this kneecapping movie before. It is one of the reasons I'd never vote for BS in the primaries and why he wouldn't be the nominee.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden