The elephant in the room regarding Buttigieg...

[BluegrassDem]

I figured I'd bring it up since it's hardly discussed on here, but I'd love to hear the thoughts about middle America embracing Buttigieg in a general election since he's gay and has a husband? Is America ready for a same sex embrace in front of the WH? My elderly mother likes Buttigieg but had no idea he was gay and married. As soon as I told her, she said that wouldn't go in middle America.

I know the comparison will be made with Obama. Obama's race did cause people to vote against him. That we know. But him being our nominee brought out more black voters too so it was a net positive.

[rzemanfl]

1. Bookmarking. n/t

[hlthe2b]

2. He's mayor of South Bend, Indiana... Hard to get more middle America than that...

He seems to come across so well, that a fair portion of those who might have issues with his being gay may well be willing to ignore it. That appears to have been the case in Indiana, after all--homophobe Mike Pence's home state.

[BluegrassDem]

3. But I wonder why he's not running statewide in Indiana then?

South Bend is a college town, but I sure would love to see him try a statewide race and see how he'd do in Indiana as a whole.

[marylandblue]

5. Because he's young, ambitious, strategic and ready to take a big gamble.

He probably has three objectives - more exposure, getting his ideas out there, and winning. He's already achieved the first objective and the third was always a long shot. He's even talked about how unlikely he is to win.

[dsc]

9. actually no it isn't

Notre Dame is in its own town (literally called Notre Dame) and thus he won without a huge college vote.

[question everything]

13. He ran for the DNC chair and in an unofficial poll here, I supported him.

[Jarqui]

28. He ran for State Treasurer and lost in 2010

He ran for mayor in 2011 and won again in 2015 after he came out winning 80% of the vote

He tried to run for DNC chair in 2017 but dropped out when he wasn't getting enough support (he did get some good names behind him)

[dsc]

4. He got reelected to that as a gay man

not elected as a gay man which is a big difference.

[crazytown]

8. Got re-elected with 80% of the vote

In a city that’s 26% black, 13% Latino with an average income of $19k.

[dsc]

11. reelected is easier

We had people reelected as openly gay in Congress in the 1980's but it wasn't until the 2000's we got someone elected to Congress as an openly gay person. Historically it has always been easier once people knew you.

[Blue_true]

29. That information looks good.

It says Blacks and Latinos will vote for policy prescriptions over other stuff. That bodes well for Buttigieg nationally.

The primary will give us a good sense. I am sure that his sexuality will be broadcast widely. If that has no impact on his performance that is good.

[SKKY]

48. That's what I though...

...but South Bend went for Clinton, and was fairly split down the middle. So, it's not like South Bend is blood red. Having said that, I personally look forward to the discussion.

[mobeau69]

6. Wow! This early!

[dsc]

7. Honestly it is hard to know

Obama was 42 years after the first black Senator (Edmund Brooks) since Reconstruction and 19 years after the first black Governor since Reconstruction (Doug Wilder). In comparison, the first elected gay governor was in 2018 (Polis of Colorado) and the first gay Senator was Tammy Baldwin in 2012. That is 2 and 8 years respectively. That is way less time. I don't know. I am not sure it is knowable during the primaries.

On edit Iowa was the 3rd state to legalize marriage equality (the Supreme Court there did it in 2009). New Hampshire was also earlier than many. So those states should give him fair shots so to speak. Once it moves to Super Tuesday who knows.

[brooklynite]

10. Point 1: at this moment, 99.9% of voters have no idea he is.

[marylandblue]

12. Hey, he is polling 1% so he is doing much better than that :)

[brooklynite]

25. I said they don't know he is Gay...

[mobeau69]

21. Have they polled that question? If so, please post a link to that data.

Last edited Mon Mar 25, 2019, 10:40 PM - Edit history (1)

If not asked about it he seems to make it a point at every event that I've watched. If his husband is in the crowd he acknowledges him and points him out. I think he sees an advantage to get the word out as early and often as he can. Once that is out of the way he seems to win the crowd over with his knowledge, skills and abilities.

I remember when many had issues with JFK being Catholic. The stuff going around was very hateful i.e. the Pope would tell him what to do on public policy. He won WV after making a decision to address his religious affiliations head on.

"I hope that no American, considering the really critical issues facing this nation, would waste their franchise and throw away their vote by voting either for me or against me because of my religious affiliations. It is not relevant. I am saying to you that my decisions on every public policy will be my own, as an American, as a Democrat, and as a free man."

[marylandblue]

14. After Trump, I believe there is no disqualifying characteristic.

People may say they are uncomfortable voting for him, but if they like him or think Trump is worse, they'll vote for him anyway.

[dsc]

15. the voters are going to get to decide this

In 2015, 14 percent of Democratic voters said they wouldn't vote for an LGBT candidate of their party who was otherwise qualified. One assumes it went down from there in the last 3 to 4 years.

[marylandblue]

17. I think it's down to zero if the Republican is Trump.

[dsc]

20. I think 2016 shows us we can't count on that

There aren't that many LGBT voters and we already get most of that vote. At the margins he would increase both turn out and percentage for us there but would that make up for the losses elsewhere? I honestly have no idea.

[marylandblue]

30. 2016 makes predictions for 2020 impossible.

My working hypothesis remains that there is no disqualifying characteristic, regardless of what you ask about. There are people who believed Trump was unfit to be President and voted for him in spite of or even because he was unfit.

This work in favor of Democrats as well. Ralph Northam's approval ratings declined to 39% after his scandal, but a plurality wanted still wanted him to stay. More black voters than white voters wanted him to stay.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna973501

So based on that sort of dynamic, if he can make it through the primary, it won't be an issue in the general. Rather, the lesson from both Trump and Northam seems to be that you just have to keep sailing along as if it doesn't matter. Because it actually doesn't.

[Blue_true]

32. The primary should shake that out.

My guess is it will boil down to Blacks and Latinos. If both go for him in big numbers in the primary, that is a good sign.

[dsc]

44. but if they don't it isn't necessarily the gay issue

there are two viable black candidates right now and they will both be in likely through Super Tuesday which encompasses most of the south. I agree if he gets strong support from those demos then it is a very good sign.

[Blue_true]

69. That's true. nt

[msongs]

16. it is not similar to obama in a very obvious way. think about, you'll get it nt

[marylandblue]

19. Similar does not mean exactly the same, and Trump is not McCain.

[Control-Z]

18. Millennials would hopefully come out in droves!!

Wouldn't that be great? In fact, just thinking about it made me smile for the first time today.

[handmade34]

22. I think

a LGBTQ person will get more votes than a Vegan just my opinion, not a reflection on how I feel about the candidates

[Quixote1818]

23. I think for 60% of the country it's fine. The other 40% weren't going to vote Dem anyway.

He might also bring some new voters out.

[Blue_true]

33. Exactly right.

I will add that Black voters, in particular, are the most rational voting group. I don't they will see an imminent danger and not respond. Trump is that imminent danger, in particular if he gets a second term. If Buttigieg wins the nomination, who he picks as a VP nominee is going to be critical in exciting key groups. Plus, as someone pointed out exciting young voters, a weak voting group, to show up and vote will be massive.

[Quixote1818]

24. Off subject, I think he is more impressive than Beto nt

[Hassin Bin Sober]

31. By a mile.

[LuvNewcastle]

40. Yes.

[Locrian]

53. absolutely - n/t

[dhol82]

26. Interesting. Did not know he was gay and all the rest.

Just liked him.
Let’s see what happens.

Still have a problem with pronouncing his name.
I know how it’s pronounced. Let it go.

[YOHABLO]

27. Let's see here, Buttigieg is a graduate of Harvard University, a Rhodes Scholar, and a veteran

Buttigieg is a graduate of Harvard University, a Rhodes Scholar, and a veteran of the War in Afghanistan. Oh but he's gay. He's out. Fuck middle America. What a bunch dumb mother frs. that live in this country.

[Bettie]

35. Actually, most people these days have a gay family member or friend who is gay

it isn't as big a deal outside of evangelical circles as people seem to think it is.

The vast majority of people who would have a problem with him being gay would never vote for a Democrat in any case.

[Control-Z]

38. Doesn't he also speak something like 6 languages fluently?

And not like Mrs. maggot claims. I've heard he actually does.

He's better qualified each time I hear something more about him. (Oh, and I've heard he's gay.)

[Celerity]

41. 8

English, French, Spanish, Italian, Norwegian, Arabic, Maltese and Dari.

[BannonsLiver]

34. An interesting question to ask

Based on some of the responses some here seem shocked that it would ever come up, which is in itself shocking. I have no idea what America is ready for, but I can guarantee if he is the nominee it will come up. Pretending it won’t seems foolish.

[Bettie]

36. Something will come up for each and every one of the candidates

Pete is gay, Bernie and Joe are old, Kamala isn't "black enough" or she's "too black"....and on and on.

Any nominee will have something "come up". It is the way the other side works.

I do, however, think that orange hitler will probably call him "butt boy" or something equally stupid.

[BannonsLiver]

39. Of course

Hillary addressed the potential of being the first woman elected president just as Obama spoke of being the first black president.

I have zero doubt Pete will be able to handle the questions about becoming the first openly gay president as eloquently as they did. He is a tremendously effective communicator.

[Bettie]

43. I am amazed by him

at first, I thought he was just another candidate throwing a hat in the ring....one with a weird name.

The more I listen to him and hear about him, the more I realize he's just an extraordinary individual. I suspect he will be on the ticket somewhere.

And yeah, I don't think he'll have a problem there.

[marylandblue]

51. Exactly. And I'm confident that Buttigieg will beat back the attack with sly humor.

[Bettie]

56. You don't get through middle school

with "Butt" in your name without knowing how to deal with bullies!

And that orange thing is nothing if not a bully.

[jaceaf]

37. Real elephant in the room is all the qualified women men toss aside

Most male democrats are not willing to throw themselves ENTHUSIASTICALLY behind a female candidate.

Basically any man will do for most. I am basically tired of it.

Yeah, a gay man is way more likely to get elected than any woman, because man.

[dsc]

46. actually LGBT candidates have been an exception

The first LGBT person elected to the House and the Senate was a lesbian as was the first LGBT person elected to an office openly who then became governor.

[athena]

67. Agreed. As long as it's not a woman leading them, Americans are happy.

It looks like we will see a gay male president, a bisexual male president, a Jewish male president, an atheist male president, a Hispanic male president, an Asian male president, and a male-to-female trans president before we see a female president.

Americans hate women. Period. And they don’t care how much this hatred causes them to suffer. As long as women are kept in their place, men are happy, and women feel safe.

[JustAnotherGen]

42. Are a lot of them

A "go" for middle America?

Nope.

Does it matter? Depends on who we define as "middle America" .

Black,Latino, Asian, Gay, a Woman? Depends on who is making the demand to be recognized as "the middle" .

[Shrek]

45. My state is literally the middle of the continental United States

He'll be fine.

[left-of-center2012]

47. Let's find out.

By letting him run.

[Amimnoch]

50. I hate that I feel that way, but I worry about the same.

Some responses are around most of America supports gay right now, but where are those people located? I don't want another "we won the popular vote, but lost the election" situation at all.

I've donated to Buttigieg. It makes me so happy I could cry that a gay man is a real contender in our primary, and is being taken seriously and supported. If you'd told me 20 years ago that this would be happening this soon, or even in my lifetime, I'd have laughed.

If it was just about anyone other that orange Pissolini in the Whitehouse, and just normal level Republican deplorableness.. I'd say let's go for it. I just think there's too much on the line. If we can get him impeached, and Pence in, alright, let's do it. We are barreling down a fascist road, and I'm not willing to risk it.

I'm sooooo willing to change my mind if someone can convince me that he has as good or better chance of flipping enough EC votes to hit 270, but based on the best information I've researched, I'm not confident at all.

My right to marry didn't come from the will of the people, it came from the Supreme court.. one that's now changed. The sole swing voter that help gain the right to marry is gone. Court challenges to gay marriage are already making their way up the circuits.

Looking at the map, and the main states that have to, in some combination, be flipped to get to 270:

Ohio - On December 10, 2003, the Ohio House of Representatives, by a 73–23 vote, passed Ohio's Defense of Marriage Act. On January 21, 2004, the Ohio State Senate passed the act, by an 18–15 vote. On February 6, 2004, Governor Bob Taft signed the bill into law. It wasn't until 2016 when Obergefell v. Hodges was decided by the SCOTUS that this was overturned. There was a PRRI poll done in 2017 that found that 61% of Ohioans supported same-sex marriage, while 33% opposed it and 6% were unsure. Does that mean they are willing to come out and vote in support of a great candidate that happens to be gay? A lifetime of experience doesn't leave me convinced.

Florida - In 2008 the voters themselves voted against gay marriage. The Florida Amendment 2, a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage and civil unions in the state. A 60% approval rate was required to adopt the amendment; 62% of voters voted in favor of discrimination. Now, Florida opinion polls have also evolved with the 2017 Public Religion Research Institute poll, sample size of 4,374 found 61% supported gay marriage, 30% opposed, 9% no opinion. Just as in Ohio, there's progress, but is it enough for Florida to elect an openly gay and married candidate?? I'm skeptical to say the least.

Pennsylvania - In 1996 the state house, senate, and governor signed Allan Egolf's amendment to ban the performance and recognition of same-sex marriage. In 2006 the state legislatures attempted a constitutional ban, but due to the difficulty in that states Constitutional procedures, (requires passing across 2 consecutive legislature terms) that one never made it. The law faced several failed court challenges. Gay marriage was likewise not legal until Obergefell v. Hodges was decided by the SCOTUS. The latest poll I was able to find for this state was a 2016 PRRI found 60% of Pennsylvania residents supported same sex marriage.

Really, when you drill down to it.. these states that are required in some combo to hit that 270 EC votes, were ready to elect the shitgibbon in the Whitehouse.. They proved that the electorate in those areas were willing to overlook every lie, and flaw of the shitgibbon while criticizing every relatively little thing about HRC (those emails were too much but "grab them by the pussy" is fiiiine..)

IMO.. too much is on the line to take this kind of chance on these required electorates making sensible, and rational decisions. None of these states are a "given" for any of our candidates, but there are candidates that will have a much more difficult road ahead to win over these states that are needed.

[marylandblue]

55. ALL of our candidates have show stopping scandals in the background

I mean that literally. They will find something, Trump will perseverate on it mercilessly, the media will report it endlessly until the majority believes he or she is the worst person in the world. When you know that will happen, the only answer is to stop playing that game. Pick the best person for the job regardless of age, race, gender, sexual orientation, sartorial style, citizenship status, personal flaws, or choice of condiments and tell anyone who doesn't like it to go eff themselves. Believe or not, people actually respect that. And if they don't, they can still can go eff themselves because they would have found a different reason not to vote for the Democrat.

[Celerity]

60. 1996, 2003, and even 2008 are ancient history when it comes to LGBTQ issues

At current trends, approval for LGBTQ marriage could be almost 73-75% by 2020, and the 25-27% who will still disapprove are 90% plus in the tRump tank already, IMHO.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/117328/marriage.aspx




This Map is from SIX years ago (when only 53% nationwide approved, now in 2019 it is close to 70%), so it it is even more blue now, minus reactionary, fundie AL and MS.




By 2020 close to or more than 90% of 18 to 34 year-olds will approve. (in 2016 it was 83%)

[pnwest]

52. I have same concern. Too many people

who are not ready for a gay married couple in the White House. I think that would guarantee a second term for the shitstain. I hate to say that.

[lillypaddle]

54. But did your mother

say she wouldn't vote for him?

[patricia92243]

57. Him being gay is not the problem. People will accept that or don't care. What is the problem

are the lies and hate that the GOP will make up about not only him personally but about being gay period.

I guarantee they will pull out the old homosexuals are child molesters, etc. And GOP people are known for their stupidity where science, etc is concerned. Unfortunately, even people that are not GOP are still not truly informed about being gay, and those are the voters we are after.

BUT, the GOP will make up stuff for any candidate, their vitriol knows no ends. We cannot choose our candidate based on fear of the GOP. So we might as well have the candidate we want because any and all candidates will be the victim of the GOP.

[marylandblue]

61. That's right. Hillary was attacked as a lesbian child-molesting murderer.

We might as well give them something real to complain about.

[LongtimeAZDem]

58. I think it's a much bigger problem than most here are willing to admit, but he may well have

the cred to break down the barrier.

[marylandblue]

59. I think Trump got one thing right - if people like you, you can shoot someone on Fifth Avenue

It's all in how you do it. And there is more than one way. You can do it with a sneer like Trump does, or with a smile. But whatever you do, you have to take it head on. You can't ignore it and you can't fold.

[disenfranchised]

62. Look at Colorado

Jared Polis just won in Colorado and he is gay and has a husband. I'm not sure if people think Colorado is middle America or what it is considered, but not too long ago Colorado was known as the hate state for voting against equal rights for gay people. I think a lot of the people that would never vote for a gay man would also not vote for a democrat anyway.

[marylandblue]

63. I also think a lot of people who hate gays will vote for a gay man anyway.

There were racists who voted for Obama. There are sexist Republicans who will vote for a Republican woman. Hell, Phyllis Shafly made a career out of saying women shouldn't have a career.

If you like someone or think they will benefit you, all of sudden a lot of other things don't matter.

[disenfranchised]

65. Yes, those are good points.

Now that you explain it that way, I think I was wrong. I am glad you pointed out those examples.

[dsc]

64. I looked at 2010 vs 2018 in terms of governor

Hickenlooper won by a ton in one sense but by 4 realistically. He had two GOP candidates who split the vote (36/11) to his 51.

Polis won by 11. 2018 was a way better year for us. But still it looks like no real penalty was paid by Polis for being gay.

Now that said, I do think it is a very white perspective to say people who wouldn't vote for a gay man wouldn't vote for a Democrat. I think that is very true of whites since they have a party that caters to the bigoted among us (aka the GOP) but for minority voters that isn't the case. I do worry about what minority voters who are anti gay would do. I don't think they would vote for Trump but I do think they might stay home.

[disenfranchised]

66. Good point. Colorado is a very white state.

It is tough to know the effect in a more diverse state.

[BannonsLiver]

68. Colorado has changed a lot in the last 20 years

I’m not sure the same can be said for other states like Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin etc.