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brooklynite

(93,884 posts)
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 10:25 AM Dec 2019

A German TV show helps explain why Democrats keep getting in trouble over Medicare-for-all

Washington Post

To be sure, Germany, like most European countries, insures practically all its people, at lower per capita cost, than the United States does.

But what neither Germany nor any other country on Earth, major or minor, does is “guarantee” everyone health care, in the sense of assuring them all the care they want, at a price they can afford, no matter what.

Trade-offs in health care are real and not merely the result of insurance company or drug company greed — though the pursuit of profit certainly can make matters worse, as the epidemic of addiction to heavily and sometimes unethically marketed prescription opioids has shown.

Even under universal coverage, people might not be covered for treatments deemed too expensive in relation to likely benefits. In fact, such systems could not work, financially, without limitations on access to specialists, devices, experimental drugs and the like.

Cost containment can irk middle-class Germans who pay a mandatory 8.2 percent of their earnings for health insurance — only to find it lacking in rare extreme cases, or even non-esoteric ones.
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A German TV show helps explain why Democrats keep getting in trouble over Medicare-for-all (Original Post) brooklynite Dec 2019 OP
Well does anyone believe healthcare with no limits is what Medicare for all is? Farmer-Rick Dec 2019 #1
I absolutely have co-workers who think... Pacifist Patriot Dec 2019 #2
The average person (esp. young ones) don't think they NEED that much healthcare... brooklynite Dec 2019 #3
because we have been told, by the man who wrote the bill, that it will be dsc Dec 2019 #4
Well a lot of bills change drastically after amendments are attached Farmer-Rick Dec 2019 #5
K&R redqueen Dec 2019 #6
Healthcare is like ANY resource The Mouth Dec 2019 #7
This is exactly the sort of conversation we'll need to have . . . peggysue2 Dec 2019 #8
K Cha Dec 2019 #9
Some on DU point to the Nordic countries and countries like Germany to shutdown Blue_true Dec 2019 #10
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2019 #11
Perhaps you're not familiar with who the editor of the Washington Post is? ehrnst Dec 2019 #12
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2019 #13
You're not interested in actually researching the sources before you trash them? ehrnst Dec 2019 #14
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2019 #15
So that's a yes. ehrnst Dec 2019 #17
Bernie: "Do I think Jeff Bezos is on the phone, telling the editor of The Washington Post betsuni Dec 2019 #16
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2019 #18
He learned that from Hillary. ehrnst Dec 2019 #19
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2019 #20
Magical thinking... works every time!!! ehrnst Dec 2019 #21
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2019 #22
"No negativity TOLERATED!" ehrnst Dec 2019 #23
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2019 #24
"We shall shut off our minds" ehrnst Dec 2019 #25
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2019 #26
.... ehrnst Dec 2019 #27
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2019 #29
.... ehrnst Dec 2019 #30
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2019 #31
Neither Medicare or private insurance provides any treatment, TexasBushwhacker Dec 2019 #28
 

Farmer-Rick

(10,072 posts)
1. Well does anyone believe healthcare with no limits is what Medicare for all is?
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 10:35 AM
Dec 2019

Medicare right now just for those older folks does not cover things like voluntary plastic surgery for minor cosmetic flaws, dental care without other major injuries, eye care without major surgery or compression stockings.

Why would anyone think Medicare for all would be any different?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Pacifist Patriot

(24,647 posts)
2. I absolutely have co-workers who think...
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 10:45 AM
Dec 2019

medicare-for-all, single payer, universal healthcare, etc. means they will be paying for anyone and everyone to get any treatment they want for any ailment they have anywhere they want to get it.

Unreal, but in a conversation I had with one man a couple of weeks ago, this is precisely what he thought. And here's the kicker. He didn't want it because his tax dollars might pay for a treatment for someone whom he felt didn't deserve it or was abusing the system. He did not stop to think, "hey, if that's how it works, I'll have awesome healthcare coverage." It was all about not wanting someone else to get those (wildly unrealistic) benefits.

That's the kind of people we're talking about here. He cannot possibly be the only one in the US with those kinds of thoughts. It's the horrendous legacy of the "welfare queen" mythology.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

brooklynite

(93,884 posts)
3. The average person (esp. young ones) don't think they NEED that much healthcare...
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 10:47 AM
Dec 2019

...maybe an annual checkup, or a sports injury.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

dsc

(52,130 posts)
4. because we have been told, by the man who wrote the bill, that it will be
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 10:58 AM
Dec 2019

he has explicitly said it will cover dental and vision for example.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Farmer-Rick

(10,072 posts)
5. Well a lot of bills change drastically after amendments are attached
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 11:19 AM
Dec 2019

Aftet the bill is passed it maybe very different. I think you should ask for the world and negotiate down from there. That's how the GOP does it.

But even Bernie's version doesn't allow cosmetic surgery. But you can buy private insurance for it. There are limits in Bernie's too. But the limits are on pricey voluntary procedures instead of on annual preventative procedures.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
6. K&R
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 11:40 AM
Dec 2019

Common sense really.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

The Mouth

(3,124 posts)
7. Healthcare is like ANY resource
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 12:27 PM
Dec 2019

where there is more demand than supply.

There is more NEED for healthcare than there is, or ever will be, the ability to provide it.


Therefore there WILL be some mechanism by which it is apportioned.

Really, I can only see three methods by which it can be 'rationed:

-by the decisions of insurance company claims adjusters
-by government committee or expert(s)
-by 'free market', that is, ability to pay.

The cold, hard fact is that there are, and will be, many situations where there is ONE heart (or other organ) available for transplant, with at least two people needing it. Somehow a decision is going to be made. For most of us with health insurance, it is the claims committee or individual adjusters. For people in single-payer nations these decisions are made by 'experts', doctors + government overseers. In a theoreticalfree market, it would be who could pay the most.

These aren't mutually exclusive, and often interact.

What everyone, especially MFA Single-Payer advocates, but all of us, have to wrap our heads around is that yes, under ANY system, some people will be denied treatment. As a society we should be clear on how that happens. The brutal truth is that the resources to keep a dying 95 year old alive another two years with intensive intervention could same the lives and/or prevent permanent damage to more than one child or younger person. At some point, grandma has to go and the bed needs to be used by someone else; it's just a matter of is it a government expert, an adjuster, or running out of money.

I still prefer opt-in, but am slowly becoming convinced MFA might work, but let's be honest, choices will still have to be made.










If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

peggysue2

(10,811 posts)
8. This is exactly the sort of conversation we'll need to have . . .
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 02:30 PM
Dec 2019

before any major healthcare overhaul has a chance in hell. People need to know and a majority of those people need to accept that universal healthcare will require trade-offs, as in not every procedure/surgery/experimental treatment will be covered.

There will be pushback.

Remember Sarah Palin's death panels? That argument will return in force with the images of granny being pushed off a cliff.

A good portion of the work ahead will be marketing the benefits of a National Healthcare Program as opposed to the vague, nebulous outlines the public has received so far, insinuating that there is no limit to what a patient can expect treatment-wise. That's simply not true. Anywhere.

Which is one of the reasons Medicare 4 All in the US will not happen quickly. Nor will health services cost containment and drug pricing be solved in a 3 or 5 year period, both of which need to be controlled for M4A to get off the ground. At best, it's going to be a long, arduous slog. Wishful thinking is not enough. In the end, that strategy--quick and easy--is cruel for the desperately ill around the country, offering promises that cannot be kept.

This is why I continue to believe that transitioning into universal healthcare through a repaired, expanded ACA, (a 2.0 program) is the best, most reasonable way to go. We can get there but it will take time and massive effort.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
10. Some on DU point to the Nordic countries and countries like Germany to shutdown
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 10:49 PM
Dec 2019

criticism of no limits universal healthcare. What those people gloss over is that the Nordic countries and Germany place limits on how far they will go with each person, and they place a premium on people exercising personal responsibility for their health.

One thing that is sorely missing in our debate on healthcare is the notion that to get quality healthcare, each person must exercise personal responsibility in the choices that they make, or face the big negative consequences that the universal system won't. There are exceptions, like illnesses that just strike adults and children, even when total personal responsibility for life choices has been exercised.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to brooklynite (Original post)

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
12. Perhaps you're not familiar with who the editor of the Washington Post is?
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 11:01 PM
Dec 2019

He's not known for being a boot licker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Baron

Why would someone who could have his pick of pretty much any newsroom in the country work for a "corporate rag sheet?"


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to ehrnst (Reply #12)

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
14. You're not interested in actually researching the sources before you trash them?
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 11:10 PM
Dec 2019

Let's leave the demonization of the legitimate free press for doing their job instead of simply flattering candidates as "hit pieces" to Trump supporters.


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to ehrnst (Reply #14)

 

betsuni

(25,142 posts)
16. Bernie: "Do I think Jeff Bezos is on the phone, telling the editor of The Washington Post
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 11:17 PM
Dec 2019

what to do? Absolutely not."

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to betsuni (Reply #16)

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
19. He learned that from Hillary.
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 11:24 PM
Dec 2019

But I have yet to hear him thank her for that.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to ehrnst (Reply #19)

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
21. Magical thinking... works every time!!!
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 11:46 PM
Dec 2019

Oh, wait...

I didn't say that HRC was in the race - although apparently Bernie has commented that she is.



I just think it would be polite of him to thank her for pulling him to the left on social justice issues, and being a mentor to him in the Senate on working with other people.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to ehrnst (Reply #21)

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
23. "No negativity TOLERATED!"
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 11:53 PM
Dec 2019

Says so much, doesn't it?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to ehrnst (Reply #23)

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
25. "We shall shut off our minds"
Wed Dec 11, 2019, 12:03 AM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to ehrnst (Reply #25)

Response to ehrnst (Reply #27)

Response to ehrnst (Reply #30)

 

TexasBushwhacker

(20,044 posts)
28. Neither Medicare or private insurance provides any treatment,
Wed Dec 11, 2019, 12:18 AM
Dec 2019

any time for anyone. You can't just go get a knee replacement because your knee hurts sometimes. You have to have substantial disability. You also can't get one if you weigh 300 pounds, because your weight will make it hard to heal properly. Your doctor will ask you to lose weight first.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
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