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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 08:02 PM

 

To all those who still want to pound on Warren for her family history that turned out to be legend--

I am so very sorry you were raised by wolves and had no family to tell you entertaining bedtime stories to give you something to live up to -- or even to live down.

Mythology is not the same as "lies," though we may believe a myth as long as we need to.

Trump lies -- he lies to build himself up, to conceal crimes, to tear others down, to destroy others. I don't see any of our Dems doing that, do you?

The myth of the Native American ancestor is very common among white Americans. It's a badge of belonging to the land, I think. As long as the believer isn't trying to access some set-aside reserved for tribal members (and tribes decide who belongs, by the way) where is the harm?

I have a Native American ancestor. She's listed in the family genealogy I copied out at 13 when I stayed with my grandma. It was compiled from family Bibles. No one ever mentioned that ancestor -- she was listed as "part-Pequot Indian," and would have married into the original English branch of the family around 1700, possibly earlier. My grandma was much more interested in the Irish, who came a lot later and some of whom she remembered personally. We have, as it happens, a lot of family lore (mythology?) about them, the Irish that is.

The point is -- at this remove in time, what is the likelihood that this lady's DNA would show up in my DNA sample as even a minute trace? If I mentioned my connection as a point of interest, would I be lying? She existed, right enough. (Later on, my mom did 4 books of serious research, much more than that list of begats.) If I mention her, am I bragging about something I have no right to? If I fail to mention her, would I be accused of being ashamed if someone found out?

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. What a country.

One final point, DUers: stop letting goddammed Trump set the goddam narrative about our candidates. Just stop it.

Edited to add: this is my 57,000th post. Happy to defend a Dem.


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Reply To all those who still want to pound on Warren for her family history that turned out to be legend-- (Original post)
Hekate Oct 2019 OP
sheshe2 Oct 2019 #1
Hekate Oct 2019 #36
sheshe2 Oct 2019 #55
Lib 4 Life Oct 2019 #2
PatrickforO Oct 2019 #3
DURHAM D Oct 2019 #8
demigoddess Oct 2019 #20
AdamGG Oct 2019 #28
PatrickforO Oct 2019 #38
AdamGG Oct 2019 #61
PatrickforO Oct 2019 #64
MoonchildCA Oct 2019 #60
elocs Oct 2019 #66
blm Oct 2019 #4
keithbvadu2 Oct 2019 #11
Eric J in MN Oct 2019 #5
Hekate Oct 2019 #7
DURHAM D Oct 2019 #9
Skittles Oct 2019 #15
LanternWaste Oct 2019 #69
Eric J in MN Oct 2019 #73
guillaumeb Oct 2019 #6
Hekate Oct 2019 #40
DrFunkenstein Oct 2019 #10
Mme. Defarge Oct 2019 #18
Hekate Oct 2019 #41
catrose Oct 2019 #12
blm Oct 2019 #14
peggysue2 Oct 2019 #13
Hekate Oct 2019 #32
peggysue2 Oct 2019 #34
nolabear Oct 2019 #53
Steven Maurer Oct 2019 #16
Mme. Defarge Oct 2019 #17
Hekate Oct 2019 #42
Beartracks Oct 2019 #19
Hekate Oct 2019 #43
Major Nikon Oct 2019 #21
Boomer Oct 2019 #23
DURHAM D Oct 2019 #24
Major Nikon Oct 2019 #44
pnwmom Oct 2019 #22
WhiskeyGrinder Oct 2019 #25
BannonsLiver Oct 2019 #26
catchnrelease Oct 2019 #27
Hekate Oct 2019 #39
mopinko Oct 2019 #50
rickyhall Oct 2019 #29
IronLionZion Oct 2019 #30
Snarkoleptic Oct 2019 #31
Lunabell Oct 2019 #33
OldRed2450 Oct 2019 #45
Bradshaw3 Oct 2019 #35
Hekate Oct 2019 #37
DrFunkenstein Oct 2019 #49
HockeyMom Oct 2019 #46
UncleNoel Oct 2019 #47
cwydro Oct 2019 #48
Hekate Oct 2019 #57
cwydro Oct 2019 #58
dewsgirl Oct 2019 #51
BlueMTexpat Oct 2019 #52
jcgoldie Oct 2019 #54
nitpicker Oct 2019 #56
Hortensis Oct 2019 #59
treestar Oct 2019 #62
Hekate Oct 2019 #63
treestar Oct 2019 #72
elocs Oct 2019 #65
ecstatic Oct 2019 #67
hughee99 Oct 2019 #68
TidalWave46 Oct 2019 #70
brooklynite Oct 2019 #71
Hekate Oct 2019 #74

Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 08:09 PM

1. Thank you, Hekate.

 

Thank you..

One final point, DUers: stop letting goddammed Trump set the goddam narrative about our candidates. Just stop it.

Edited to add: this is my 57,000th post. Happy to defend a Dem.


and congrats on 57K.
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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 01:55 AM

36. Thanks back atcha, She

 

There are days I just want to quit this place, then I run into one or more of my friends.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #36)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 12:30 PM

55. 💕

 

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 08:11 PM

2. for me your final point is the most important. not just trump, i see democrats using republicans

 

as a sounding board. Unacceptable
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 08:27 PM

3. This is a good post. My great-great grandmother Cassandra was supposed to be

 

part Native American, but she wasn't. I did a DNA test and had 0% Native American in my blood. Warren, however, was NOT lying. Her DNA test showed she has a small but detectable amount of Native American DNA. The report concluded there is “strong evidence” she had a Native American ancestor approximately six to 10 generations ago. I never really saw the problem.

Trump can call her 'Pocahontas' all he wants, but she'll be a hundred times better president.

I say we stop being scared of Republicans and run the candidate who has the bold progressive plan - a REAL vision for a better America. Warren's policies would make Americans' lives materially better across the board.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #3)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 08:46 PM

8. Good post. As for the Pocahontas thing -

 

Pocahontas was first and foremost a peacemaker.

I think Trump does not know anything about her. I wish Senator Warren would start responding with a thank you and a history lesson every time Trump goes there. Trump and stupid Republicans could use some education.

At some point Senator Warren could also mention that Pocahontas converted to Christianity. I sort of wish that were not true but Republicans might like it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #3)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 10:16 PM

20. My uncle told me that he was 1/4 Cherokee and I was 1/8th.

 

Ancestry DNa says he was wrong. My thoughts? Back in the day genealogists would go door to do and 'sell' people on the idea that they were something that was worth something and would offer to find proof for them. For money. What my uncle told me when I looked it up online about 30 years later was a scam. One of the last things he wrote to me was "it took a lot of time and a lot of money, but now I have proved it". I think Warren's family was probably sold the same type of story. So I am a Warren supporter and do not believe she was lying or scamming. She had just been told the story that her family had been told.
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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #3)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 11:07 PM

28. How many generations ago did her ancestors even come here?

 

The 10 generations ago part of the range could be ruled out if they were still in Europe.
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Response to AdamGG (Reply #28)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 02:17 AM

38. Nah, cause if you look at a generation as being around 20 years,

 

Then 10 generations would be 10 X 20 or 200 years. That would put Warren's ancestors here in the early 1800s.
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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #38)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 02:15 PM

61. It's definitely possible, it's just that a few generations back puts me at Ellis Island

 

and the population of the US was pretty low in the early 1800's. And, for it to enter family lore, her Native American ancestor probably wasn't that far back.
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Response to AdamGG (Reply #61)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 06:24 PM

64. Not sure how you figure. I can trace my family back to the 1600s in Europe.

 

Some of them were here very early in the 18th century. My family lore goes back quite a ways.

For instance, my paternal great-great grandfather came through New York City and ended up in Missouri. He was the first of three brothers who fled Ireland from County Roscommon via Galway Bay in 1847. Their father owned a 14 acre potato farm, and they fled the famine seeking opportunities in the US. He shipped during the winter that year on a coffin ship where the passengers, all Irish peasants fleeing the potato famine, suffered prodigiously. Many died. And Ellis Island did not exist as an immigration processing center in the late 1840s. When a ship bearing immigrants arrived, they simply docked at the State Street Pier in NYC and let the passengers disembark. This was in April 1847.

There were gangs in NYC at that time, too. Like in the movie - there actually was a Dead Rabbits gang. This young man came through New York, I think, and ended up in Missouri, on a farm near Warrensberg. He later brought his two brothers over and they prospered until the Civil War. His younger brothers were both in the Missouri Militia on the Union side in the war and my great-great-uncle saw heavy action in the 7th Regiment, Missouri State Militia Cavalry between 1862 and 1865. My great-great grandfather served in the Missouri Militia infantry briefly on the Union side fighting off the invasion of Confederate General Pearce in 1864.

Our family lore had my grandfather's grandfather on my paternal side married to a Native American. That was the deal, and we always believed that. Until I took that DNA test, that is, then I no longer believed it. But the woman in question was named Cassandra, and her grandfather had fought with the Virginia militia in the War of 1812. Now, assuming that either he or her father had married a Native American woman between 1800 and 1825 isn't all that far fetched.

Consider the Cherokee. They lived in an area that encompassed large parts of the Carolinas, Georgia, Kentucky, Tennessee and Georgia and were quite a large tribe. In 1838, they were forcibly relocated to the Nations in what is now eastern Oklahoma. Many died, but they were called the 'civilized' tribe. In the Civil War, they generally took the Confederate side because they hated what the US government had done to them. In addition, around 10% of them were slaveholders themselves and so supported the continuation of slavery. So Stand Watie formed a cavalry regiment which fought in the guerilla actions throughout Missouri, Arkansas and northern Texas. Many Cherokee cross-married.

My family, which had somehow come to Missouri from New York via Tennessee, always thought that Cassandra was at least part Cherokee. But, alas, this was not to be.

As to Elizabeth Warren, like me she thought the same thing. Only in her case it was true six to ten generations back.
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Response to AdamGG (Reply #28)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 01:29 PM

60. If you even go back 4 generations...

 

...that’s 16 great, great grandparents to trace. (At 10 generations, you have over 2000 10x great grandparents.) If I go back 4 generations, 15 of mine all were born in Europe, most of my ancestors came over in the late 1800s to very early 1900s, during my great grandparent’s generation. One however, my great grandmother’s mother’s side can be traced back to pre-revolutionary times. In fact, I’m a direct descendent of General Putnam and related to Ann Putnam, one of the accusers in the Salem witch trials.

The point I’m making, is the further back you go, the more complex your family tree is, and the harder it is to trace. From Grandpa Put’s generation, I believe he’s my 6 x great grandparent, I have 255 other 6 x great grandparents. It would be difficult to trace whether one of them happened to be Native American. Only family lore would give the hint. And genealogy is not perfect, as you don’t know what set of genes you will inherit. But with Elizabeth Warren showing one percent, it’s likely she does have a Native American ancestor.
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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #3)


Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 08:29 PM

4. There sure are a lot of Irish, too. Every March 17th.

 

Seriously, though, there are many millions of Americans just finding out through these DNA tests that their family history isn’t as clear as they were told. It wasn’t that long ago when families would keep adoptions secret, or that the birth of a child occurred after a rape. Sadly, when Jews were being targeted some sent their children off to other countries claiming a different heritage and religion.

I would say that most people know very little about their exact lineage.

Besides, Trumps deliberately LIED to potential renters for years after WW2 by claiming they were Swedish not German.
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Response to blm (Reply #4)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 09:14 PM

11. You must mean Olaf Drumpf.

 

You must mean Olaf Drumpf.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 08:37 PM

5. Her parents told her that her great great great grandmother

 

...was Cherokee and then Elizabeth Warren described herself as “American Indian.”
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Response to Eric J in MN (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 08:40 PM

7. Uh huh

 

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Response to Eric J in MN (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 08:49 PM

9. So? nt

 

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Response to Eric J in MN (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 09:44 PM

15. yup, very stupid

 

but.....time to move on already
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Response to Eric J in MN (Reply #5)

Mon Oct 7, 2019, 01:06 PM

69. For the sake of being self-righteous, I'd pretend it's relevant as well.

 

"Gots us all wunnerin... what's the back of the t-shirt say?"
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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #69)

Mon Oct 7, 2019, 02:29 PM

73. Is that a line from a movie? NT

 

NT
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 08:39 PM

6. Happy 57,000th post.

 

And it is an excellent one.
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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #6)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 02:28 AM

40. Thank you

 

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 09:07 PM

10. Here's The Trump Family History (Bookmark This For Next Time Pocahontas Comes Up)

 

Trump’s grandfather, born Friedrich Drumpf, left Bavaria as a poor, unemployed barber in steerage class to avoid military service in 1885. A resourceful immigrant with no English, he quickly made his fortune providing quarters for gold hunters in the Yukon Territory red light districts.

Now rich, he attempted to leave America to return to Bavaria after meeting his German wife there: “We are loyal Germans and stand behind the high kaiser and the mighty German Reich,” he wrote. He was refused for dodging the draft when he left the first time and was kicked out of Germany with his wife and unborn son, Fred Trump, who was later born in Queens.

Fred Trump, Trump's father, would go on to be arrested in 1927 at a KKK rally on Memorial Day as a "berobed marcher" who refused to disperse. He would go on to build a real estate empire notorious for two things A) profiteering off government-sponsored FHA loans with his mafia-linked partner (ultimately getting called out by the Eisenhower administration) and B) refusing to rent to African Americans. In fact, one-time tenant Woody Guthrie wrote two songs about him, including this nugget: "Beach Haven looks like heaven/ Where no black ones come to roam! / No, no, no! Old Man Trump! /Old Beach Haven ain’t my home!"

Rather than rent to Aftrican-Americans, Fred Trump targeted the rising middle class of Jews in Queens and Brooklyn. Many of them were Holocaust survivors and their families who, understandably, did not want to rent or buy their property from a German. And so Fred Trump lied to their faces and told them he was Swedish.

According to Trump's cousin, John Walter, the lie was directly intended by Fred Trump to enrich the family: "He had thought, ‘Gee whiz, I’m not going to be able to sell these homes if there are all these Jewish people.’”

When working on “The Art of the Deal” in the mid-1980s, Walter relates that Donald Trump asked his father about the decades-long family deception: “Do I have to do this Swedish thing?” The answer can be found in the book where it states that his grandfather “came here from Sweden as a child.”

A 1984 cover story in The New York Times Magazine, a blown-up cardboard copy of which Donald Trump kept in his NYC office, also asserted that “the family is of Swedish descent.” Although Donald Trump had been confronted about the deception, his father’s 1999 obituary in The Daily News called him the son of “a Swedish immigrant father.”

Meanwhile, on a related note, Donald Trump was made a landlord from the time he was 3-years-old and was a millionaire by age 8 from his salary and various other tax-evading gifts from his father. Ultimately, Trump - who collapsed virtually every business he ever touched - received $413 million (adjusted for inflation) from his father's real estate empire over his lifetime, largely while avoiding any inheritance taxes.

Through an astounding variety of schemes to avoid such taxes, Fred Trump cheated the government out of half a billion dollars in taxes.

The "Swedish" Fred Trump was so active in Jewish and Israeli causes that some even believed that he was himself Jewish. This including donating the land for the Beach Haven Jewish Center in Flatbush, New York, supporting Israel Bonds, and serving as the treasurer of an Israel benefit concert featuring American easy-listening performers. During the 1980s, Fred Trump became friends with future Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu, who at the time was the Israeli Ambassador to the United Nations in Manhattan.

One of Fred Trump's tenants was a Jewish doctor who agreed to diagnose Donald Trump with bone spurs "as a favor" to help him avoid service in Vietnam after he could no longer defer using his Ivy League schooling.
---

In short, Donald Trump inherited $413 million from his father by knowingly lying to Holocaust survivors and their families. How much did Warren profit from believing her parents?
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Response to DrFunkenstein (Reply #10)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 10:11 PM

18. Grandson

 

of a pimp!
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Response to DrFunkenstein (Reply #10)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 02:30 AM

41. I want his entire clan of grifters broken down so far they have to go back to the ancestral Yukon...

 

...whorehouse.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 09:14 PM

12. I lived in Oklahoma for 20+ years

 

Just about every Oklahoma native claimed claimed a Native ancestor. They all knew whether (1) they were on the Dawes' rolls, (2) they were a member of a nation (decided on by the nation), or (3) had Native ancestry without either of the previous being true, which didn't mean that they were any less proud of it. My spouse looks like Tom Baker (4th Doctor Who). He's Mohican, tracing his ancestry to one of four Native boys adopted by his English ancestors in the 1700s. Not a lot of DNA left, but it does show up in the Y chromosome. I supposedly have 3% Native DNA, which is approximately at the great-grandparent level, but no one in the family knows who that might be. It's easier to trace our Jewish ancestry, also 3%. Neither showed up in my child's DNA test.

And in the 70s-80s, companies really wanted to show their diversity and begged people to list anything along those lines. So I've no problem believing that Warren listed her ancestry because she was proud of it and because the organization wanted to show its diversity cred. (I know a red-haired, blue-eyed man whose company was happy to list him as black--which he is--and also gay, though he was married with children.)

I've read of Warren mentioning her ancestor, known at least to her parents, and the discrimination she experienced. So she has a bit more reason to claim this ancestor than all the descendants of Cherokee princesses that I've met.
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Response to catrose (Reply #12)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 09:42 PM

14. Interesting. I've heard similar views from other Oklahoma residents.

 

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 09:22 PM

13. Absolutely agree, Hekate!

 

I said when the story first came out that it was much to do about nothing and neatly paralleled my husband's experience--inaccurate family storytelling. He was told that his great grandmother was NA, complete with rich, believable details.

Then came the DNA test.

Zero Native American blood but he scored high (3rd highest on the list) with Neanderthal ancestry. Not nice of me but I laughed and laughed and laughed. Didn't need a blood test to prove that, I said. Then I laughed some more. The joke writes itself!

So, that result was a surprise because we'd all taken the story on faith. Until we couldn't.

Mine, not so much. For someone who was told as a kid that I had the map of Ireland written across my face, the blood work confirmed the description and the family's ancestry narrative. The only mild surprise was someone 6-8 generations back had come from Finland. But that detail never made it into the family's oral history.

I think there are probably thousands of Americans who have been given a passed-down story and believed the generational retellings. Inexpensive DNA testing has turned a lot of these narratives on their heads.

It is what it is. But certainly not earth shaking nor disqualifying.

That being said, Trump has already stated he's planning to reopen this line of attack. It's a head up to Dems: don't take the bait.
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Response to peggysue2 (Reply #13)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 01:17 AM

32. Love it about the Neanderthal strain! My mom the genealogist & the entire rest of the family...

 

...would have rofled all over the place as well if she had turned that up. Welcome to the human race.
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Response to Hekate (Reply #32)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 01:24 AM

34. Still makes me laugh

 

And it's a great way to tease my husband!
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Response to peggysue2 (Reply #13)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 10:41 AM

53. Hey, watch it. I'm one of those Neanderthals too.

 

Proud 97th percentile.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 09:59 PM

16. It's just an excuse for racism...

 

Racists love to pretend they're oppressed because minorities get some sort of advantage they don't. This smear plays right into that.

The problem is that some of these racists vote Democratic occasionally and we need every vote we can get.

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 10:06 PM

17. Bien dit, ma belle!

 

Well said! Merci!
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Response to Mme. Defarge (Reply #17)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 02:31 AM

42. Thank you, too

 

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 10:11 PM

19. Congrats on 57,000! And a hearty agreement with your post! KnR.

 

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #19)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 02:31 AM

43. Thanks!

 

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 10:20 PM

21. When DNA tests are mentioned in relation to Native American ancestory it makes me cringe a bit

 

There's a lot more to being a Native American than just finding a drop or even a significant percentage of DNA ancestry.

For one thing, the accuracy of these sort of tests aren't as definitive as many believe.

For another, the idea of trying to link DNA to Native American identity is just a bad idea all around. Some people who have very strong identities to being Native American may have low to zero "Native American DNA" due to marital or other non-genetic reasons like adoption. While someone who has high "Native American DNA" may have zero identity to any tribe simply because their parents or other ancestors were removed from any tribal affiliations.

I get that people want to do these kind of tests and discover themselves somehow, but in a way I think it reinforces the idea that we are what our genes say we are and I don't really see the logic in that. At the very least there's a lot more to it, especially when it comes to being Native American.

Personally I say that anyone who wants to identify even in a small way as a Native American is a big change from when I was a child and it was something many were ashamed of being even within my own family.
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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #21)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 10:37 PM

23. It's a complicated relationship

 

My mother was Mexican, and her family origins are a mix of European and Zapotec Indian, as is common among many of the inhabitants of Oaxaca, Mexico. My matrilineal/mitochondrial DNA is undeniably Zapotec, going back tens of thousands of years. I'm really proud of that connection, but I have no cultural ties to that heritage. I was born and raised in the U.S. and don't know anything more about Oaxaca than what I read on the internet.

So I'm not going to say "I'm a Zapotec Indian" but I can say "I come from Zapotec Indians." That avoids the problematic concept of being a % of a culture.
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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #21)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 10:44 PM

24. I was born during WWII. iows - I am old.

 

I am at this moment on land previously occupied by Osage and Pawnee. I don't have a drop of NA blood but have close and extended family members who do. I encounter on a daily basis native culture.

I have never once in my life known anyone ashamed of their native blood nor have I ever heard anyone make a negative comment about same.



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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #24)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 02:43 AM

44. My maternal grandmother would never admit to being Native American

 

Everyone on her mother's side was. Her husband, my grandfather was. She never attended tribal events. She often told people her dark complexion was because she was part Spanish (which she was). Nobody faulted her for it. She grew up in very different times when people still considered Native Americans savage and subhuman.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 10:24 PM

22. You make many good points here. And another is that even siblings, other than identical twins,

 

inherit different combinations of different DNA from different combinations of people. So my brother has 8% from Scandinavian countries and I have none. (He also has a Y chromosome that I don't have, so I'm not surprised we have other differences.)

You might have no DNA show up from that distant Indian ancestor but a sibling might have a significant amount -- even though you have the exact same family tree.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 10:56 PM

25. There's a lot going on here.

 

I am so very sorry you were raised by wolves and had no family to tell you entertaining bedtime stories to give you something to live up to -- or even to live down.
The ones I see objecting to the way Warren talks about her family history are those who are living their lives as Native Americans -- many of whom have family who were punished for telling "entertaining bedtime stories" about their family history or cultural legends, so your wording here comes across as unnecessarily cruel.

The myth of the Native American ancestor is very common among white Americans.
Yep, and it's often used as a weapon against people whose identity is NA.

It's a badge of belonging to the land, I think.
What do you mean by "belonging"?

As long as the believer isn't trying to access some set-aside reserved for tribal members (and tribes decide who belongs, by the way) where is the harm?
Warren herself apologized for the harm she caused, which was to confuse the idea of what tribal citizenship and sovereignty mean.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 10:57 PM

26. We share a home state

 

Practically everyone here thinks they have native ancestry because of family lore. The whole thing is a big nothing burger.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 11:05 PM

27. Not as simple as people think

 

I think people look at the dna results and are sometimes confused as to what they have 'inherited'. The idea that we get 50% of our genes from each parent is true, but it's not necessarily the same 50% as what our siblings would have. So while you might not have any NA genes show up in your test, your brother/sister might have some. Which means it *could* be possible that there was an NA ancestor way back in your family, you just didn't get any of their genetic material. Each time a baby is conceived, the mix is random, and wouldn't be the exact same as other children in the family. And it would be diluted over the generations as well.

My husband is a twin, he had auburn hair and freckles growing up. His twin sister has olive skin, and black hair. Their dad is mostly Hispanic and mom was Irish/German. His dna test showed mostly Irish and Western European with minimal Hispanic. Don't believe his sister has had a test done so can't compare hers, but I bet it's the opposite of his. I do agree that the testing is not really foolproof, but it is interesting to see how the results work out.
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Response to catchnrelease (Reply #27)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 02:25 AM

39. My daughter's significant other has a Hispanic name, dark eyes, and black hair. Deeply tanned....

 

His surname is the same as a local mountain -- like most of California our county was settled by Spaniards, who took over from and intermarried with the local Indians, in this case the Chumash.

So, we thought he was Latino. HE thought he was Latino. Until he decided to have one of those DNA tests done and it came back European. All European. Spanish, judging from the name.

The 2 year old boy he and my daughter have together is what used to be called a tow-head, with hair so blond it's white. He has the most startling bright blue eyes I've ever seen, and I come from a family where most have light blue or light-green/hazel eyes, not like his at all.

DNA tests can only tell you so much. As you noted, even siblings don't share 100% of the same DNA.

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Response to catchnrelease (Reply #27)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 10:21 AM

50. both a son and a daughter of mine did 23, as did i.

 

it is pretty interesting to compare who is closely related to my daughter, and who is closely related to my son. very different lists. to the point that now i know who is related to me through my mother, and who is related to me through my father.
i knew a few people who popped up in the lists, so i know how they are related to me.

warren should get her sibs to get tested.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 11:11 PM

29. All my life I was told I had a Chickasaw great grandmother.

 

My family has written records. We know her name. My sister found her grave in Oklahoma. Yet no Native American DNA shows up in my Ancestry DNA test.

I was also told I'm a descendant of Leif Erikson and Erik the Red. That DNA shows I'm 8-10% Norwegian & Icelandic.

I'm not sure just what to believe, but my best friend, who was adopted, found her whole family through Ancestry DNA.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 11:20 PM

30. Obama's mother is white but Trump knows he was born in Kenya

 

based on how he looks. My whole life people have told me it doesn't matter that I was born here, Americans are white.

Not one person I've ever met cares that I have a white ancestor on my mother's side. They know in their gut that I'm stealing jobs that belong to whites because I'm brown.

Most evangelical or conservative "Christians" don't care that my family has been Christian for 2000 years, long before any Europeans or anyone else joined the faith. They just know in their hearts what real Christians look like.

And Trump has sued Native American casino owners claiming they don't look like real Native Americans, as if he would know.

“What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so.”

We should never let Trump or any Republican turn us against our own party's candidates.

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sat Oct 5, 2019, 11:30 PM

31. We always thought my grandfather was part Native American.

 

My Trumpanzee brother paid for a DNA test a couple of years ago, in hopes of proving-up minority status and taking advantage of greater career advancement.
My point is that family history often contains misinformation regarding ancestry.
If this is the best they've got against Warren, we're going to be just fine.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 01:23 AM

33. My ancestor, Susie Redman, was said to be Cherokee.

 

But we just found out recently that she was 100% German. I grew up my whole life thinking I had a Cherokee great, great grandmother.
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Response to Lunabell (Reply #33)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 03:19 AM

45. Same here.

 

My grandmother told everyone she has Cherokee. Out of curiosity I did one of those 23nme and it turns out I have zero. I have a little of everything else though. I don't think anyone but republicans cares about this issue.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 01:53 AM

35. Except her family history wasn't legend

 

She did have a Native American ancestor.
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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #35)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 02:01 AM

37. Yep -- and did you see the thread in this forum today with poster after poster going after her...

 

...for "lies" and "stupidity" on this score. Basically peddling Trump's meme.

Rather than attempting to correct all the misinformation on that thread, I wrote this OP, and I am so grateful for the many people who have understood my intent.
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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #35)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 08:01 AM

49. Trump's "Swedish" Heritage Wasn't Legend - It Was A LIE

 

We need to stop being defensive about this issue. It is an irrefutable fact that Trump lied to Holocaust survivors and their families for decades with no other purpose but to enrich himself. And he got $413 million from his daddy's "Swedish" empire of lies. And a Jewish tenant got him out of Vietnam - how much is that worth?

If someone brings up Warren's heritage, don't wring your hands. Republicans certainly wouldn't. Dream big, fight hard. They say "Cherokee," you say "Swedish" before they finish the last syllable.

Warren never asked for anything for her heritage, and never got anything. Trump was able to fund all of his many, many failed businesses by lying to Holocaust survivors - even in "The Art of The Deal," his personal mythology, he claims to be Swedish.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 07:24 AM

46. Indigenous Peoples is better term

 

than Native American. DIL had her DNA done and got 15% "Native American". She was shocked with that since her Mom's family did not come to the US (NYC) until the 1950's. Taino Tribe of Puerto Rico. Same with a friend who came to the US from Australia as a little girl. 10% Native American? No,10% Indigenous Peoples of Australia.

Family stories? My Grandma used to say that her family originally migrated from Spain to Southern Italy. Never found anyone from there researching my family, but my DNA showed 3% range Iberian. My daughter got 5% range Iberian, but I got a higher percentage of Greek and Turkish (5 to 10% range) than she did. Never heard any family stories of Greek or Turkish ancestors, nor found anyone from there in my research, but Southern Italy is very close to Greece and Turkey.

It is not a PRECISE percentage. I tested with three different sites. Same countries on all of them, but the percentages were different. If Warren tested with multiple sites, she could/would get different percentages of Native/Indigenous Peoples.

Edit: I would not classify Spain as Hispanic. My DNA test results put it into European percentage. My DIL does consider her Puerto Rican heritage as Hispanic. True.

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 07:40 AM

47. Native American Heritage--Im an anthrpolpgist

 

I have studies the Shawnee and other tribes east of the Mississippi and in the southwest for over 50 years (see my website: http://www.fantasy-epublications.com/shawnee-traditions/index.html). My latest effort is a book that will be published in the next couple of weeks, The Shawnee Spirit: A Separate Covenant and Shawnee Traditions: A Song in their Hearts.

In my research, I have found many people east of the Mississippi who can definitely trace their ancestry back to one rribe or another. When the Native Americans were removed westward, many of them, some of pure blood and some of mixed blood, stayed behind either hiding in remote areas or passing for white. This was a period when there were no Indian rolls as such that came about at a later time nor were there baptismal or civil records of births, marriages, and deaths. Some families have genealogies preserved family bibles and other papers, but often the Native American ancestors wee known only to the families and passed down by oral tradition. Without definite data, tribes do not accept these people as tribal members, especially since the percent of blood from their Native American ancestors is often l/16th or less. This has happened in my family as well, with two of my sons having a grandmother on their mother's side who undoubtedly had perhaps 1/2 Cherokee blood that can only be known by family traditions.

There are, in fact, remnant bands who have established themselves apart from the recognized tribal organizations and some of them are recognized by the states in which they exist. Personally, I would not be surprised if Warren in fact has Native American ancestors. Since they remained behind, they would not show up in the rolls established around the time of the Removable, the various "trails of tears."

Many whites are proud of their Indian heritage even if not recognized by their respective tribal organizations.

So to me it is a totally non-issue.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 07:51 AM

48. Is someone doing that here?

 

Have I missed something?
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Response to cwydro (Reply #48)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 01:04 PM

57. Several someones, ranging from "concerned" to "shocked," & it persists. Irks me every time...

 

...and it's gotten so I want to throw something. So I threw the OP out there.



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Response to Hekate (Reply #57)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 01:16 PM

58. Thanks! I'll pay more attention.

 

That “Pocahontas” ship has sailed.

If the orange stain isn’t afraid of her, he should be.


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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 10:25 AM

51. The same thing happened to my DIL was shocked at the results.

 

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 10:36 AM

52. Thank you, Hekate!

 

So far as I know, I do not have any ancestry other than Western European-Scandinavian (English, Irish, Danish and perhaps a trace of German) and there have never been family stories about anything else. I've never had my DNA tested, so who knows what might show up there.

I do know, however, that my own children and theirs have more variation in their DNA, e.g., North African and Asian. And I am so proud of them all!

I am happy to be a Democrat, like you are, whatever your ancestry. And I will be most happy to support whoever is our Democratic nominee.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 11:57 AM

54. Nothing "turned out to be legend"

 

Nonsense. And no-one is talking about this but you.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 12:42 PM

56. There are dancers in the dance

 

That may have not transmitted down into one's DNA.

If you have an average of 50% inheritance...

Half from each parent

A quarter from each grandparent

An eight from each great-grandparent

A sixteen (3 chromosomes) from the great-great grandparents

A 32nd (1-2 chromosomes) from the great-great-great grandparents...

BUT

In theory, one could inherit NOTHING in DNA from a grandparent ((absolutely virtually impossible))

The odds of "dancers not passing anything down to you" grow in each receding generation.

By the time one gets to the great-great-great grandparents, the odds of "missing DNA" from one (or many) of them is high.

For me:

There is a suspicious 1850 census report of a birth along the frontier in the 1780s.

My grandfather was reported (and in a photo shown) to be looking "off the res".

My father's family was a mixture.

Me? not an obvious scrap.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 01:23 PM

59. Hekate, even halfway principled people never bought into this

 

nasty attack. That's most of us. Who on earth doesn't at very least have friends who've always proudly claimed native American ancestry, no matter how remote? That's always been a nice thing. These days I feel bad for those whose DNA tests aren't confirming family stories cherished for generations.

As for the noisy minority who eagerly grab onto any mean and/or dishonest excuse for partisan bashing? A pox on them and whoever they inherited their lack of integrity from.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 02:19 PM

62. I recall the DNA proved Warren correct

 

She had some NA ancestry. She had never claimed to qualify as tribal member, but deplorables acted as if she had.
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Response to treestar (Reply #62)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 03:34 PM

63. Yes. But Trump's slurs & lies entered the public sphere, & now we've got people ...

 

...deplorables, that is, believing Trump's lies (ie she got into Harvard claiming full NA status), or (and the following would be Dems) claiming she exaggerated unduly, or she needs to apologize for all the "harm" she's caused, or the harm to her candidacy has been done and people won't vote for her because of it and it is really her own fault, and she should not be our nominee.

I'm getting a lot of good replies in this thread, but the fact that there are ANY DUers purveying any of this crap is unconscionable. It's just another version of allowing Trump to pick our candidate, and not having our candidate's back when the inevitable shit hits the fan. He's working on Joe Biden and has laid the groundwork for Elizabeth Warren. We should be formulating rapid responses on behalf of all our Dems, when it comes to Trump lies.



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Response to Hekate (Reply #63)

Mon Oct 7, 2019, 02:13 PM

72. And it's aggravating that the Dotard

 

does not have to do the same regarding things he actually did (no one has to make up anything about him). He should not be allowed to throw accusations around when he is not credible. Maybe that's what we have to hit hard - that he lies so much, what he says should be presumed to be a lie until proven otherwise, rather than the opposite.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)


Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 06:43 PM

67. I'll admit that I was among those who were annoyed

 

by Warren's actions in the past. Your post doesn't really address (and is irrelevant to) the reasons why I was annoyed. As a Warren supporter, I'm not going to rehash those reasons now.

In my opinion, the best way forward with regard to it is to just let it go. She apologized and those who are willing to forgive may do so.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Sun Oct 6, 2019, 07:44 PM

68. Yes, it's one thing to say that you have a certain heritage,

 

It’s another to submit documentation actually claiming it. It’s not like Warren has ever claimed to be Native American in any sort of legal documentation based on a family story.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Mon Oct 7, 2019, 01:30 PM

70. "stop letting goddammed Trump set the goddam narrative about our candidates. Just stop it."

 

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Mon Oct 7, 2019, 01:34 PM

71. Who exactly is "pounding"

 

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #71)

Mon Oct 7, 2019, 03:14 PM

74. Several threads featuring Warren, given enough time several posters show up with everything from

 

..."concern" to outrage, basically blaming her for Trump's lies and more than implying she is unelectable due to generalized disgust for doing and saying something (that she didn't do). Putative people who are alleged to going to be disgusted enough to never vote for her range from any and all Native Americans to woke white people.

I'm sure you can find them, or just be alert to their upcoming presence. I found the thread that was my last straw easly enough, though it's probably on page 3 or 4 by now.

And now let us turn our attention to the shocking corruption of Joe Biden, who never got rich in the Senate, and whose remaining son didn't have the wit to file for 30+ patents/copyrights in China while his dad was VP. The American voters will never stand for that kind of thing.
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