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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:14 AM

 

To my surprise, Michael Moore made some very interesting points...

I originally put this observation in a thread bashing him, and have left it there. But I decided to give it a fresh start, just because.

I heard something completely different than the rest of you:

Moore said that the traditional 'Joe Lunchbox' hardly exists anymore as a % of voters...

...if you're talking about white blue-collar voters. When you are talking about blue collar voters today, you are talking about women, POC, young people, and workers in the gig economy. He talked about the tens of millions (40 million?) young people that have come of voting age in recent years.

About 1/3 of white men voted for Hillary, and God bless them, welcome to the Dem Party. (Did I get that right?)

But in general white men had not been voting for the Dem Party for quite a few presidential election cycles already -- in any case, he did say that to sit around talking about Reagan Democrats and such in 2019 was (for the younger set) like us listening to our parents talk about Woodrow Wilson -- it just made our eyes roll back in our heads and go listen to the Beatles.

Reagan Democrats and their ilk are gone for us. Forget about trying to get them back. Focus in who our constituency really is TODAY: women, POC, young people, and so on.

I was impressed. Dear DUers, based on what you've been complaining about recently, I thought Michael Moore was not our friend any more and had nothing left to contribute. I almost changed the channel but hubby wanted to hear him. This time, I'm glad I heard him out.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Reply To my surprise, Michael Moore made some very interesting points... (Original post)
Hekate Aug 2019 OP
pnwmom Aug 2019 #1
Hekate Aug 2019 #4
wasupaloopa Aug 2019 #11
Hortensis Aug 2019 #26
Hekate Aug 2019 #39
pnwmom Aug 2019 #12
Hortensis Aug 2019 #27
flamingdem Aug 2019 #2
standingtall Aug 2019 #3
Hekate Aug 2019 #6
standingtall Aug 2019 #8
Hortensis Aug 2019 #32
betsuni Aug 2019 #5
wasupaloopa Aug 2019 #9
JI7 Aug 2019 #20
betsuni Aug 2019 #24
JI7 Aug 2019 #29
betsuni Aug 2019 #33
wasupaloopa Aug 2019 #7
BannonsLiver Aug 2019 #13
KY_EnviroGuy Aug 2019 #15
PatrickforO Aug 2019 #18
wasupaloopa Aug 2019 #40
PatrickforO Aug 2019 #41
Anon-C Aug 2019 #10
mr_liberal Aug 2019 #14
PatrickforO Aug 2019 #17
mr_liberal Aug 2019 #38
PatrickforO Aug 2019 #16
JI7 Aug 2019 #19
5starlib Aug 2019 #21
JI7 Aug 2019 #22
ProfessorPlum Aug 2019 #37
BlueWI Aug 2019 #43
Garrett78 Aug 2019 #23
calimary Aug 2019 #25
Mike Nelson Aug 2019 #28
YOHABLO Aug 2019 #30
JI7 Aug 2019 #31
StarfishSaver Aug 2019 #34
brush Aug 2019 #35
True Dough Aug 2019 #36
Gothmog Aug 2019 #42

Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:22 AM

1. Interesting. Thanks, Hekate. I can't even remember what I'd heard from him lately

 

that made me uninterested in his opinions, but I'll pay more attention from now on. It sounds like he still has something to contribute.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:31 AM

4. Thanks. I'm mulling it over. This continual fretting over one constituency...

 

Last edited Thu Aug 1, 2019, 01:28 PM - Edit history (1)

...makes it seem like they are ours to recapture, and he makes it plain that they haven't been "ours" in quite some time, and in any case their actual numbers are diminishing with every election. Move on. Work with what we have and what we can gather in, which is a majority.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Hekate (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:54 AM

11. He is full of it. We have been saying blacks and women

 

won in 2018 and they are the majority in 2020. And they were moderates.

We donít talk about joe the plumber any more.

We do talk about Obama voters who voted for trump but not the color of their collars or lunch box.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 04:47 AM

26. And those long-gone white men, he blamed on Hillary/us in '16.

 

I read this because it's Hekate's, always worth it. I suspect he's just getting old and thinks his awareness of changes is new information, which it can be to many older people. His observations in a benign mood are interesting enough. Didn't expect to chuckle in a thread about him.

But he's a scorpion, won't keep it up. Remembering Moore on President Obama -- no, Obama did NOT tell Flint mothers to give their children poisoned water.
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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 01:58 PM

39. I know, I know. But sooner or later every discussion about why Hillary lost turns back to...

 

...how she didn't visit white working class enclaves in a couple of states, or white blue collar enclaves, or the Rust Belt with it's economically betrayed white industrial workers, and how she told white coal miners that coal is dead and they need to retrain.

Always. She didn't visit them during her campaign.

You would think she had stomped on their hearts with her pointy high heels.

And by the way the Democratic Party is too "coastal" (read: diverse in every way, not white enough and not Christian enough). That is a favorite of the chattering class. Well I live on the West Coast and it's so damn big most of us know we're never going to see a presidential candidate in our lives.

Aagh. Where was I going with this? I know we Dems know who our base is.

But criticisms from both without and within always come back to not our retaining a constituency that may not have been ours for longer than we knew. People on this board have been known to embrace that view. Some of our leaders do. God knows our critics do.

I'm mulling it over.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Hekate (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:54 AM

12. One thing, though.

 

My daughter lives in liberal northern CA, and she's talking to people who are concerned about not turning off voters, especially women, who are persuadable because they can't stand Trump (even though they voted for him the first time). She says that a big issue seems to be healthcare. They like the idea of Medicare as a public option, but NOT the idea of giving up private insurance for those who have it and like it.
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Response to pnwmom (Reply #12)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 04:57 AM

27. Interesting. A few of my DIL's girlfriends in Georgia are

 

apparently saying similar things, but she has no real indication that they would vote Democrat. Best possibility would probably be if they "turned off."
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:26 AM

2. Yes, his commentary about demographics is required listening

 

for dems. He failed to say who he favors - maybe that person doesn't exist.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:28 AM

3. He gave awful advice according to the U.S. Census

 

76.5% of the population is still white. White women probably slightly outnumber white men so we are probably talking around 35 to 36% of the population being white males. Would be a terrible idea to just dismiss that entire voting block like that. As bad is it is if we did not get the 1/3rd of them we get then we couldn't win much of anything if they voted for repukes at the same rate African Americans vote for Democrats we would finished as a party. We can appeal to women and POC while also improving our numbers with white males it is not an either or choice.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to standingtall (Reply #3)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:44 AM

6. He didn't seem to be "dismissing an entire voting bloc" so much as saying they're not ours...

 

...and have not been for a long time.

He was referring not to the entire white population of the US, but specifically to blue-collar workers, the mythical "Joe Lunchbox," who is always portrayed as white and male and more important than anyone else.

I have nothing against white male blue collar workers -- my father certainly was one, building and inspecting aircraft for Lockheed for 44 years, and a shop steward in the union. But he's been dead for over 20 years, and two of his children are over 70, and 3 of his 4 children never worked with their hands at all. Is there something to be pondered about how time and culture have moved on?

Moore says yes, that the demographics have shifted that much. I'm thinking it over.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:48 AM

8. He did dismiss when he flatout said we don't need them

 

Clearly we do and as long as we are under performing with them we will under perform with white women like we did in 2016 when 52% of them voted for Trump. Obama did much better with white males than Hilary. If we can just do as well as Obama did we can crush Trump.
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Response to Hekate (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 06:20 AM

32. Yes, that was true certainly in 2016. A thirdish of white men

 

voting Democratic is I think a pretty normal figure around the nation. Men tend to be more conservative than women period, of course exacerbated by enormous change, with failing incomes and feelings of self worth among some as educated women and minorities pass them by to become a large proportion of the relatively privileged working classes.

The new thing is that Moore is now admitting they weren't "ours" to keep in the first place -- if we'd only bothered to care about them, to "reach out" to them, to talk to them, to try to connect with them, if we only weren't "out of touch" and unwilling to come out of our elite liberal ivory towers and realize they existed, etcetera as nauseum.

He's pointing out the makeup of today's real lower-tier working classes as if we didn't know that. While the Republicans have only become more white male supreme, our party's makeup has been changing with our nation all along. We all knew his styling us as an out-of-touch white Manhattan elite culture was always dishonest as hell. Democrats really are all ages, genders, colors and religions, and we are those young gig workers, people whose jobs have disappeared, new college-educated professionals with great incomes, aging boomers, and elderly watching the cost of living rise with incomes they no longer have. And we've been increasingly electing people of all types and backgrounds to office for decades.

As I think of this, I believe Moore's updating his rhetoric to catch up with our reality -- but without admitting it. And guessing it's strictly only partially. I'd bet the contents of my wallet we're still "out of touch" with "the people." Basic natures don't change, and certainly not at his age.

Thanks for posting this.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:37 AM

5. I was perplexed.

 

He says that all polls show that the majority of Americans support liberal progressive positions like raising the minimum wage, passing the equal rights amendment for women, against mass incarceration, right down the list. But they need to be inspired by a candidate who sides with them.

I don't get it. What Democrats likely to win the nomination are against these liberal progressive positions? Does he think that a Democratic president would veto such progressive legislation?
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Response to betsuni (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:49 AM

9. Those positions are probably in the Dem platform.

 

Moore is playing the left vs middle game.
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Response to betsuni (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 04:03 AM

20. this , and it's just more discouraging support for Democrats. we have many candidates running and

 

there are some who ARE doing well with White men but they ALSO do well with minorities and focus on social justice issues. i think he is trying to dismiss many of our great candidates with his bs.
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Response to JI7 (Reply #20)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 04:23 AM

24. It's just a more subtle advertisement for his candidate.

 

That there's only one True Progressive who the American people overwhelmingly agree with but Democrats are trying to stop (RIGGED!) because they've been bought off.
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Response to betsuni (Reply #24)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 05:22 AM

29. yes, i think only reason he is kind of talking the way he does is because people are calling him out

 

for his bs and are on to him. but i can still see through it. especially since he claims the only one that can win is the one that is doing badly with poc and women even though he claims those groups are important now.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #29)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 06:46 AM

33. He seems to put a lot of faith in the youth vote.

 

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:44 AM

7. I hate that you say white men don't vote for Dems.

 

One out of three vote Dem. What are they chopped liver? 66% is far from all.

Say a majority vote repub but donít say white men donít vote for Dems. I know it is popular to dump on us at DU but it isnít right. We are part of the winning combination too. We exist.

Us white guys who vote Dem are part of the diversity too.

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Undecided

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:59 AM

13. I rolled my eyes at the "welcome to the Dem party" line.

 

My first presidential vote was for Bill Clinton in 1992. That was the first election I was old enough to vote in. Iíve never voted for a Republican ó for anything.

I know the data is what it is, but the assumption some have that every white person with a penis is a frothing at the mouth Trump humper, or a dumb fuck libertarian, is an increasingly irritating trope.
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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 03:50 AM

15. Difficult to find the statistics but....

 

the term "white male" includes a lot of wealthy and professional people that are more likely to vote Rethug, along with older men that drank the damned KoolAid back in the day. I think that skews the data compared to other races because more white males hold more powerful positions and control more of the wealth.

I suspect the percentage of white "blue collar" white workers is shrinking with time, as manufacturing jobs are exported or lost to automation. And, Faux News and right-wing talk radio has sucked a lot of the wind out of our traditional Democratic support from what's left of that demographic.

KY
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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 04:00 AM

18. Being white, I concede the point.

 

I think our party is big enough to accommodate the 33.3% of us that vote Democratic. We aren't chopped liver.

That said, the point Moore made still stands. Everybody is needed, but we need to make sure we're really getting that vision out to millennials, gen Z, women and minorities. If they get to the polls, we'll win hands down.
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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #18)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:04 PM

40. You are right but Dems have old white guys too

 

I was born in 1946 when Truman was President.

We lived through the sixties and took part in civil rights, women's rights, anti war protests.

Many of my school mates who remained in OH became right wingers but those of us who left because the state became conservative have never given up the fight.
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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #40)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 10:29 PM

41. LOL, well, I'll never catch you! I was born in 1958, which was actually the last cool year

 

to be born!
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 02:53 AM

10. It was a pleasant surprise, O Mistress of the Moonlit Gateway!

 

Moore made a lot of sense on this occasion.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 03:21 AM

14. He's bigoted towards white men and moderates.

 

Thats what all his points are based on. Its not anything reasonable, its hate.
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Response to mr_liberal (Reply #14)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 03:54 AM

17. Most white men don't vote Democratic. That's more of a statistical fact, I suspect,

 

than a matter of bigotry.
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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #17)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 11:22 AM

38. He attacks white men all the time and it has nothing to do with voting. Its bigotry. nt

 

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 03:53 AM

16. I saw that too.

 

To my mind, what Moore said was quite true. If we don't energize these kids with a vision of a better future for them that includes an aggressive fight against climate change, healthcare, and affordable college, then they won't come to the polls.

What's the old saying? Without a vision, the people perish.

Yes, that's it. Warren is right on that score. We have stand for big things, set a big vision. Yes, the end product will necessarily be compromise, but let's go in with a good progressive vision, because no one ever won an election telling people what they can't have.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 04:01 AM

19. Still think he is full of shit . Because there ARE white men who would vote for some of the

 

democrats running right now so it's more about discouraging support for Democrats running right now.

his Michelle Obama thing is bs also. someone said he had previously said we need to get Oprah to run.

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 04:03 AM

21. Moore would be correct in a popular vote general election

 

But we have the EC and unfortunately, young people and POC are fleeing the rust belt states and going south. And guess what they're leaving behind? Older, white voters. Look at Iowa and Ohio. They are getting older and whiter. So although Moore is correct in the abstract, at the micro level, he is wrong. Hell, if we could elect a president by popular vote, we could just run up the score in CA and NY and call it a day, but it doesn't work that way.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 04:05 AM

22. yet he named Bernie Sanders who does NOT do well with POC and Women as the candidate that could get

 

support . he did this on another show.

sorry, he is full of shit as usual. he has to change what he says around because the facts show him to be wrong. but in the end it's just about discouragement .

it's not difficult to just say most of the candidates stand for something that would help all democrats so people should support them. but he finds a way to do it.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #22)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 08:51 AM

37. that's a canard

 

did you know that Gloria Steinem named Sanders an honorary woman for his work for women's reproductive rights?

Just because he campaigned against a female candidate in a primary doesn't mean that women can't support him. And his numbers this time around bear that out.
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Response to JI7 (Reply #22)

Sun Aug 4, 2019, 07:24 PM

43. Sanders doesn't do as well with the named blocs as Biden

 

but he outdoes the rest of the field, at least with POC. Women as a whole didn't turn out in record numbers for Clinton either, so no candidate should take these constituencies for granted.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 04:08 AM

23. Turning out the base has to be the focus. Duh.

 

Anyone who thinks the key to our success is converting Trump voters had better not be advising our eventual nominee.

We need greater turnout among POC and young people than we saw in 2016. Make that happen and our nominee becomes POTUS.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 04:43 AM

25. Nobody's happier to see Reagan Democrats in the "Gone" column than I am.

 

Nobodyís happier to see Reagan ANYTHINGS in the ďGoneĒ column than I am! The sooner he becomes completely irrelevant and forgotten, the better.

Good riddance!
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 05:12 AM

28. Moore is all over...

 

Ö the map. He says things that are true and not... but he does make interesting points. He seems more correct because he repeats the things he was correct about and forgets the bad predictions. His first choice was not Hillary, but he did support her and tried to appeal to his followers and raise her up... when Moore picks an idea and formulates a thesis, he can be very effective. Still, he's a TV personality and will say things that are not great... but that's what good TV guests do... I do like him.

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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 05:34 AM

30. I think some of you mistakenly think the base is still establishment centrist Dems. It's not.

 

The base of this party is far more to the left than they're telling you. Michael Moore has always been spot on. I've seen every one of his documentary films and have always left the theatre feeling grateful that he has a huge voice. I say, listen up.
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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #30)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 05:48 AM

31. the base is black voters who can lean many ways . but social issues are important. Moore is being

 

called out by people so he is trying to get away from the message he had before but still trying to push Sanders who DOES NOT appeal to women and people of color who Moore claims are important.

he has not always been spot on. he was wrong about Gore . he was hanging out with Julian Assange on the day of the trump tower meeting. he said some nasty fucked up shit about Mueller . he has never been hateful towards trump the way he was with Mueller.

wonder if his hatred of Mueller has to do with his friendship with ASsange.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 07:18 AM

34. I almost turned him off because I can't stand listening to him,. It am glad I kept it on

 

because I heard what you did and,Ike you, was pleasantly surprised when he made this observation, which I agree with completely.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 07:47 AM

35. He's right about those things but most of us know to forget about Reagan Dems.

 

They haven't voted for Dems in several cycles so no need to waste our time courting them. Two thirds of white men vote repug is just a fact.

Our constituency is POCs, women, LGBTQs, progressive white men and others from the O coalition. This is who we need to get to the polls and other like them.

Moore was right on these issues but he has turned on Dems before. Let's see what he does next. For some reason he didn't like O, perhaps jealous.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Thu Aug 1, 2019, 07:53 AM

36. I always consider Michael Moore worth a listen

 

He offers keen insights at times. At other times he's brash and looking for soundbites to keep his name relevant. So I take him with a grain of salt, but I try not to dismiss him outright.
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Response to Hekate (Original post)

Fri Aug 2, 2019, 10:57 AM

42. I stopped paying attention to Moore a long time ago

 

I was amused to see that mooreís Last movie bombed. I change channels when Moore is on

Remember, this man supported Nader and is responsible for Bush
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