Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumThe Word "Socialism" Is Toxic in This Country
It shouldn't be, but it is, thanks to a constant repetition of that equation by Republicans for over 50 years. So, it's not a good word for presidential primary candidates to use loosely.
Instead, by replacing it with "Democratic Policies" when describing things like universal healthcare, tuition relief, and other concepts, the psychology is different. There are Democratic voters who hear the word "Socialism" and are so put off by the word that they don't look closely at the policy being discussed. That's not good. We need every Democratic voter.
Candidates who continue to align with the word "Socialism," even with modifications like "Democratic Socialism," are cutting their own chances of winning in primary elections in many states in this country. Worse, they're tying Socialism to the Democratic Party and hurting our chances of winning in many states in the general election.
Psychology. You'd think we'd understand that by now. It's not like it's a new thing. But, we don't. While that word is attractive to some voters in the Democratic party or on the left, it is anathema to other Democratic voters. We need their votes, too.
I like socialism. In my heart, I have always been a socialist, but I sure as Hell would not run for office as one. I'm smarter than that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...slowly, but still changing. Changing to mean government programs that benefit society at large. This isn't necessarily a bad thing or anything to run from.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)Truly it has not.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...everything under the sun socialism.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)those meanings are critical to not being jerked around like fools by political manipulators. Socialism is a real thing with a real meaning, and there are many well-studied variations on it with their own names. To vary from them is to vary from the truth.
The fairly generic term "mixed economy" is useful for discussing modern governments. It refers to the mixture of capitalism and some socialized programs that all advanced nations have. But at that wholly socialized systems are not automatic in mixed economies because they may not be the best answer or not accepted by their peoples.
The U.S. has had a mixed economy since the New Deal created very partially socialized programs such as Social Security. SS and Medicare are not examples of socialism. The VA, our only large true socialized system, delivers better care for far less than partially socialized Medicare. Of course the Republicans are trying to destroy it.
In talking socialism, let's never forget that no wholly socialist or other centralized leftist form of government has ever survived its many dysfunctions. Centralization of authority and control over services creates hugely serious problems for their peoples. Most that try it either degrade into authoritarian states, like Venezuela, and collapse or manage to survive by allowing capitalism to return and invigorate, like China, while still oppressing their people through central government
Those who want socialized medicine should recognize that our national healthcare system will be of the ACA-Medicare type, at best only partially socialized, and might want to focus on saving the VA as a banner for the future. I understand some who see themselves as Democratic Socialists imagine veterans' care rolled into some grand new MfA scheme. Ouch! That wouldn't happen if they learned what just a few terms really mean. Or maybe some'd learn they weren't all that committed to democratic socialism after all. Whatever.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...and I think this particular evolution is driven more but Republicans labeling everything under the sun Socialist if a Democrat supports it.
I know the historical definition of Socialism and how its been used, or attempted to be used, in the past and it doesnt have a great track record. But that doesnt mean we should ignore the fact that its definitely losing its old meaning quickly since you can interview as many people as you want and probably get as many different answers.
Many, if not most, of those answers will most like include something about government social programs meant to help everyone. Things change...and we shouldnt be afraid of that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)being a major evolver. Let's stick to honesty because sloppiness in use of language makes it easily corruptible.
Those who imagine giving socialism kinder and gentler connotations through "evolution" will make it sound less extreme and more acceptable are making a huge mistake. The right is far, far better at this than the left because where the left would only weaken its language to make it more digestible, they use the confusion to weaponize it with their interpretation.
And never forget that when confused people do look up a definition of socialism, they find the traditional one, not a range of hopeful variations styled as "evolutions."
There is real strength in the fact that almost all Americans LOVE our mixed economic system and want to improve it. They want BETTER government programs. Smart candidates will use that. Extremist candidates will give Republicans the opportunity to rebrand the terms Democrat, liberal, and progressive with a scary-monster-under-the-bed name.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)They never have and I can't see them getting any closer to that altruistic goal. Generally as a party, Democrats care about the greater good but it takes more than just Democrats to win elections.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
doc03
(35,148 posts)At poisoning words.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)been made to be toxic by Republicans. They have been demonizing that word since World War II. We have an entire generation of voters who has been affected by that demonization. And guess what? They vote in higher percentages than any other bloc of voters.
Reaction to that word varies in different parts of the country and in different states. In a few states, it gets hardly any negative reaction at all. However, in many other states, appearing to be in favor of socialism is a sure way to lose an election, primary or general.
Even our presidential election is a state-by-state thing. We have no national elections. A Democratic candidate can win California overwhelmingly, along with other states that tend to vote progressively, and still lose the presidential race. That's exactly what happened in 2016.
National politics is a strategic thing. To win, we have to win enough states to ensure an electoral college victory. If we fail to do that, we lose the White House. We also must win a majority in the Senate, which is another statewide election in every case.
We failed in 2016, in part due to our failure to round up and bring Democratic voters to the polling places in enough numbers. We could lose again in 2020 for the same reason.
We ought not to do that, I think. We ought, instead, to work to ensure a victory for Democrats that regains control of the White House and Congress. That, I believe, should be our primary goal. If it is not, and if we continue to bicker among ourselves over political labels, we may find ourselves in a place we do not want to be.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)It is an ideology that isn't compatible with liberalism.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)of a successful democratic Socialist nation?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
TomSlick
(11,035 posts)I define the term "Socialist" as I was taught in PoliSci classes decades ago - public ownership of the means of production. I am aware of no democratic countries that are truly socialist under that definition. The only countries that I can think of that are close to strictly socialist - again under the definition I was taught - are a very few Communist countries. (Communism is a governmental system with a socialist economy and a one-party, totalitarian political system.) Socialism is an effective bogey-man in this country because too many conflate the terms socialist and communist. The two terms are not synonymous. All communists are socialists but not all socialists are communists.
Socialism and Capitalism are largely irrelevant terms because economic systems are very rarely one or the other but are a mix of the two. The question is where on the spectrum between the two extremes any given economic system falls. The US has not been anything near a strictly capitalist country since the New Deal.
I am skeptical that any of the Democratic office holders who call themselves Democratic Socialists are really socialists. I have not heard of any calls to nationalize industries. It's just the labels that are problematic.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Ferrets are Cool
(21,063 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
greymattermom
(5,751 posts)Maybe security.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)It got rediscovered as an alternative to "liberal" around 2010 or so as a center-left descriptor, but has been commandeered by the far left more recently.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LonePirate
(13,386 posts)Dems would be better off not using the word at all.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
forklift
(401 posts)of socialism that is toxic. It makes everyone poor and oppressed. (Looks good on paper though)
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)It is toxic, politically, here in the USA. We can't change that in time for the 2020 election. We simply cannot.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)It is like trying to rehabilitate fascism. It is a foolish pursuit.
We Democrats have our own proud liberal tradition.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)which is totally misunderstood by the public. We cannot redefine it in people's minds. People are not listening to our attempts to do so. The effort to demonize the word "socialism" has succeeded over the past 50 or 60 years. It would take at least that long to redefine it in a positive way, and only if the demonizing disappeared, which it will not.
Democracy. Democratic. Justice. Prosperity for all. We have plenty of other words we can use. We should use them all freely and effectively.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)Socialism has demonized itself because it is an anti-liberal ideology.
No "re-framing" will ever resuscitate socialism. Complete non-starter.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Socialism is an utopic system that always fails in reality and leads to shortages and tyranny. Look at the economic collapse of Eastern Europe during the Cold War.
What Democrats want is not Socialism. They want to implement a few cherrypicked socialist policies, not the whole thing.
The Democrats should aggressively call out the Republicans that they don't even know what they are talking about.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)Truly we cannot.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)in the name of this failed ideology.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)We need to nominate an electable candidate
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
David__77
(23,220 posts)I think a big part of the Democratic voters do not have a push button automatic response against socialism. I also think there are generational differences in play.
I think the left vs. right and socialist vs. capitalist thing last are overplayed. At the same time Im ok with someone calling themselves a capitalist or a socialist. Im interested in policy.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Awsi Dooger
(14,565 posts)Liberal is applied to homegrown but flawed. That's the way I would summarize.
Not exactly a coincidence that socialism ramped up as soon as liberal started to lose effectiveness as a standalone.
Very true that we don't have a push button coordinated response to a socialism tag. They attach the word to anything and everything and their followers feel increasingly comfortable with it since they don't hear a short effective counter.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Link to tweet
?s=20
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
R B Garr
(16,920 posts)to be doing right now. We are not socialists. I dont need some Senators distractions anymore. We already lost too much over this in 2016. He lost again in 2018. Arguing over socialism is a gift to Republicans.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)It's roughly about as smart as calling yourself a Pedophile as a candidate.
"What's the Problem? It's Latin, go look it up! It just means you love Children ... Doesn't everyone love children? "
As a candidate, you don't want have to be telling people to believe words mean something other than what 95% of people THINK THEY MEAN, even if you're technically correct.
Just my humble opinion.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
riverine
(516 posts)Having to explain the meaning of "socialism" is a certain loser.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Stuart G
(38,365 posts)All cities have ...running water..Who provides the running water?
All cities have sewage systems..Who provides the sewage systems? (some rural areas do not, and home owners provide sewage systems.)
All cities have police departments?.....same as above...will they be there in an emergency?
All cities have fire departments?........same as above...will they be there in an emergency?
Yes, cities have emergency rooms for health care... No, the cities do not provide that..hospitals do.
.............................................in an emergency Do you get care?
Most cities have parks and playgrounds...Who provides them? Are they open to everyone?
Is there something about libraries?....can anyone go in and read a book?
How about public schools..Only for the rich, or for everyone in that town, What about that one?
...you mean education up to grade 12 for everyone?
Some communities have Jr. Colleges..are they open to everyone?
OH MY....is this ...............creeping socialism???....creep...creep
If "socialism" is toxic...it looks like we all have been .... poisoned..!!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)if Bernie is the nominee. And there are others.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Link to tweet
?s=20
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)We need to win, and that's going to take someone with broad appeal, not narrow appeal.
I realize that's difficult for some to accept. Many people have very specific goals and are unwilling to consider anyone who doesn't share their exact goals. But, that's a mistake. A President can't actually cause much of anything to happen. Presidential powers are limited, and collective action by Congress is always needed to do most important things.
So, the President's job is to work on getting Congress to send him things that accomplish goals, not to tell Congress what precise actions that collective should take. That's hard to understand for many people. Many want a President who will push through their specific goals. They know what they want, and that's the main thing for them.
There are about 320 million individual people out there who have things they want. The President is not where wishes are granted, though. The President, if he or she is a good President, wants to achieve goals that help the most people, most of the time. Good Presidents do not take narrow views of long range goals. Instead, they push toward a larger, general goal of improving people's lives.
I hope we remember that as we move toward 2020 and look for a person who has that sort of idea of what a good President is. The narrower the view of a candidate, the less likely that candidate will be to win. We saw the result of that in 2016. We must not make that mistake again. We need to unite in our general goals, not separate due to narrow, personal goals.
I don't know if that's possible. For all I know, 2020 may be my last presidential election, based on statistical data on aging. I hope I go out in a hopeful time, rather than a fearful one.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)Understanding US politics requires a wide angle lens, not a narrow telescopic view. If the goal is to win, then we need voters from all segments of Democratic constituents.
It's a pretty simple equation, really.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)However, they are not the entire base of the party. It's a mistake to look at things from such a narrow perspective, I think.
The true base of the party is actually quite moderate in nature. It is made up of people who go to the polls and vote every time. Those who do not do that cannot be the base of any political party.
Many people claim to know who the base of the Democratic Party is. Many of those are dead wrong. The base is a very diverse group of voters who always vote for Democrats, and who always vote in every election. There is no other base. There are blocs of potential voters, but unless they actually show up and vote every time, they are not a "base" at all.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Link to tweet
You add up things like packing the Supreme Court, getting rid of the electoral college, the Green New Deal and Medicare for none and you have a prescription of turning America into something it never has been and never should be, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said recently. So we intend to be on the offense in running our races."
Were going into the war with some socialists, Trump told a fundraiser in April.
This could be the defining debate of the 2020 election. Trump is so happy with that. Sanders is fine with that. The rest of the candidates arent so sure. But given the way this debate is shaping up, they may have no choice but to pick a side.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Florida Bull
(103 posts)I dont think we even have a mainstream Socialist in our political system. Even Bernie Sanders is not a Socialist, but actually a Social Democrat, like in Denmark and Sweden. And, he should be emphasizing that.
But, Baby Boomers and the Silent Generation vote very consistently. And, many of them confuse the label Democratic Socialist with the 1950s Soviet Union. They experienced the Red Scare and the peak of the Cold War.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)of demographics. I'm a boomer, and grew up in a different time from many people, but there are millions and millions of us out there, and we vote in every election. While I know what socialism is, in its various forms, that isn't the case for the majority of people. For most people it is just a generic label for something they have been taught to fear. That won't change.
The Germans had National Socialism. That was shortened to Nazism. The Soviet Union called itself the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Both have been long time adversaries and both used that label. It's no wonder that people born after WWII and who became adults during the Cold War don't like that label.
For the most recent couple of generations of voters, the "Socialist" label doesn't have the same negative connotations, but they're not numerous enough to be a majority of voters. In fact, many of them don't bother to vote at all. And then, we have a strong minority of voters who chose Donald Trump in 2016, for pete's sake.
If we are going to win in 2020, and by winning I mean taking back majority control of Congress as well as electing a Democrat as President, we're going to have to think about all of those demographic groups. If we do not, the same minority that elected Trump will elect more republicans, with the help of propaganda and lies.
We'd better get our act together, I think. We'd better get united pretty damned quickly.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
peggysue2
(10,811 posts)If we are forced to defend socialism in 2020, we lose. Period. The word and the sense of the word simply doesn't fly.
Americans are not socialists nor do they like the idea of socialism. It matters little to explain that we live in a hybrid economy of public/private because most people stop listening after you utter the word 'socialism.'
It is indeed toxic in the larger political arena.
For 2020, winning is everything because without a win, without ridding ourselves of the Chaosmeister, all the things we view as important, vital, critical to our survival go out the window.
Without a Democratic victory in 2020, we might as well take up spitting in the wind.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)to a lot of people. It still carries a very, very negative connotation for a massive number of voters. Forgetting that will doom any candidate who adopts socialism as a campaign strategy. I'm not worried that a candidate who does that will get the nomination. That won't happen. What worries me is that those who want to champion socialism will simply not vote in 2020. That's the real danger, I think. And it's a scenario that could happen.
We really need to get a handle on this soon, because it won't be a socialist of any kind who comes away from the nominating convention as the nominee. That's not going to happen in 2020. It might in 2024 or 2028, but not in 2020. Socialism is a loaded word. And it's not loaded with winning right now.
Note: I am a philosophical socialist. But, I'm also a political realist.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
peggysue2
(10,811 posts)Particularly in an election where we're fighting for our lives. Trump is awful but Trumpism is an existential threat. The Trumpster and his whole band of enablers need to be decisively repudiated, and then we start to repair the damage these thugs and criminals have perpetrated.
And yes, I agree. The true danger is that voters turn their back, stay home if their particular candidate doesn't win the nomination. Which is, of course, a decision to cut off your nose to spite your face. Because anything less than a win in the 2020 General will be an unmitigated disaster. For everyone.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Nanjeanne
(4,878 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Turin_C3PO
(13,650 posts)I do wish we could have an adult discussion about the merits or lack thereof of socialism, but unfortunately our country doesnt seem ready to have a true conversation about the issue.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)It is heavily embraced by those under 40.
The rest of us don't fall for the labeling.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)Show me. I have not seen that in reality. So, show me that is the case.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)And if the Democratic party joins Trumps attacks against them, many millennials will vote with their feet.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/409877-poll-nearly-half-of-millennial-democrats-identify-as-socialist-or
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Link to tweet
As for Sanders, he benefits this time around from 100 percent name identification. However, the flip side of 100 percent name ID is that hes no longer new, no longer saying things no one else will. Hes just as much of a democratic socialist as he was in 2016, but in the space of a few days weve seen that the energy isnt all on the left; its drifting toward a centrist, young, optimistic candidate. Voters follow the energy and the ethos. They dont carry around a thermometer gauging where on the scale of ideological purity each candidate rates.....
All you need to be is progressive enough to win a Democratic primary. Seeming more moderate than the Sanders clan is an advantage in the general election.
Why are pundits, the media and party insiders so convinced that ideological extremism equals energy/success? Part of it may be wishful thinking for progressives. However, part of the difficulty is linguistic. "Moderate sounds to many ears to mean mild-mannered, prone to compromise and wishy-washy in beliefs. Nonsense. If ever there was a radical moderate, a fervent centrist Democrat, its ORourke. And gosh, hes showing that can be exciting.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)want sanity, stability, and sensibility from their nominee in 2020. Biden will fit that bill nicely if he runs. Add a VP nominee with some fire who appeals to women and the younger demographic groups, and you have a winning ticket. Kamala Harris is a great fit.
That's my pick for the 2020 ticket. Biden/Harris 2020!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)But apparently it isnt 😳
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Ferrets are Cool
(21,063 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,475 posts)still equate it with communist bogeymen.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)I have seen similar studies. It is not a given that trump is beatable in 2020. If the economy is in good shape, then there are models and studies that show that trump can win. Obama left trump with a great economy and trump may not screw up the Obama economy before 2020 and get re-elected.
Link to tweet
I am not counting on the Obama economy faltering and so I am worried. We have to defeat trump We have to nominate the most electable candidate
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,280 posts)Even those who claim to embrace it and call themselves socialists probably aren't real socialists at all. Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production and distribution of goods and services are owned and controlled collectively - that is, by the government. "Democratic socialism" assumes that the government, elected by the people, is controlled by the people and therefore the people own and control the means of production and distribution of all goods and services. But socialism, as normally defined, does not allow for private enterprise. You don't own your own business; you don't own stock in a private business. The government that you elected owns and manages everything. I doubt very much that this is the kind of arrangement most Americans want or would vote for.
What many progressives are promoting as socialism is really just a highly-regulated capitalist system in which the government, via taxation, provides a strong social safety net that includes benefits like universal health care, higher education, child care, adequate pensions, etc., which are often touted as "free." Of course those things are not free; they are paid for or subsidized by the government through taxes and are therefore both far less expensive than if supplied by private businesses, and are equally available to everyone. This is basically the Scandinavian model, which is often described as "socialist," but it really isn't.
In Norway, for example, benefits like child care, medical treatment and pensions are "free" or low-cost, in that they are provided by the government. But Norway is not a socialist country; it's a constitutional monarchy with a democratically-elected parliament and a highly-regulated capitalist economy. The only way in which Norway comes even close to socialism is with respect to Equinor (formerly Statoil), its oil production/distribution corporation, 70% of whose stock is owned by the Norwegian government and a government pension fund. The remaining 30% of its stock is publicly traded. Equinor owns the North Sea oil production facilities as well as the gas stations (production and distribution).
The Government Pension Fund Norway is smaller and was established in 1967 as a type of national insurance fund. It is managed separately from the Oil Fund and is limited to domestic and Scandinavian investments and is therefore a key stock holder in many large Norwegian companies, predominantly via the Oslo Stock Exchange.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway
Income from pension fund investments as well as regular taxes support the country's social safety net. Norwegians are taxed on their assets, and there are also value-added taxes and special taxes on things like cars, cigarettes and liquor. I have a relative in Bergen who rolls her own cigarettes, which is a fairly common practice there because the tax on pre-made cigarettes is so high. But social services like "free" college and "free" health care are not free; they are paid for by taxes and investments from the sovereign wealth fund. And apart from Equinor, corporations are not government-owned, but are owned and operated by private individuals. There is even a stock exchange in which the stock in private corporations is publicly traded, just like in the US. It has an enviable social welfare system, made possible at least in part by investment in the income derived from its most important natural resource. But it is not a socialist country. If we're going to deal with right-wing accusations about socialism we are going to have to understand what it means.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)it means. Which makes it one of those useless words we should probably stop using, as far as I'm concerned.
It often gets an adjective tacked onto it, besides, as in "National Socialism," Soviet Socialist Republics," or "Democratic Socialism."
It has become meaningless in its original sense, which you accurately provided. Nobody wants pure socialism. It has never existed, and never will, as the system of any government or economy. It's not viable in either.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)trump will use socialism to attack our nominee if we are not careful https://politicalwire.com/2019/03/21/trumps-economic-team-pushes-socialism-theme/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)And see where it ends up.
For people over 50, it's toxic. To folks under 40, it's the future.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Link to tweet
?s=20
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BlueFlorida
(1,532 posts)rest consider it a poison.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)That's the way it's always been. When people hear socialism they hear income redistribution. Most people don't like that. They're not interested in "the greater good."
Sanders is a lifelong socialist maverick and wants to move his brand of socialism into the mainstream no matters what chaos ensues for the masses as a result.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Sadly, this is true...at least at this point in our countrys history.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Turbineguy
(37,212 posts)They learned it from the Nazis and the Soviets.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
playaseeker
(59 posts)Republicans have weaponized "Freedom" to mean everything that Democrats are against, but they have left the whole "Justice" side of the equation open. The general angst that pervades American right now is based (I believe) on the lack of fair play and justice. The rich have a different set of rules and the average Joe is just treading water. I think Democrats should use these terms:
Level Playing Field
Fair Play
Same Rules for Everyone
Unlock Opportunity
Fair Pay and Fair Share of the Profits
Socialism is toxic. Justice and fairness are as American as apple pie
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)so it's much longer than 50 yrs ago.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mikehiggins
(5,614 posts)I think Democratic Policies would be a much easier sell and not really call for much in the explanation of what was meant. Count me in.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)I use. Darn if that Socialist water system is not the best thing since having my own Well,darn I stay in the House now turn this lever and water comes out. Wow,got indoor Plumbing thanks to that new newfangled pipe that goes out to the one in the Street,understand my neighbor's share the cost,darn best part,wont have to put the Parka On to go out to the little shack in the back yard there.
Forgot,got these light things that you just flip this switch thing in the up position and shucks,that light bulb lights up. Sure nice to know the REA was funded by my Neighbors also,darn Socialist policies just shined some major light on Ignorance.
Darn,it is so wonderful to be a Socialist rather than Blissfully Ignorant. Now if I can only remember where I put my Subsidized Refreshment.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
keithbvadu2
(36,369 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)There are posters who believe that we can nominate the most liberal/socialist nominee as possible and that candidate will easily win because everyone hates trump. It is their position that this is a historic opportunity to nominate someone would otherwise not be electable. This theory is wrong in that most POTUS are re-elected if the economy is good. Here is a scary study that shows this
Link to tweet
There are good reasons to doubt this study
Link to tweet
I do not believe that trump is assured of winning. If we want to win, Democrats need to nominate a strong nominee who is NOT too far out of the mainstream
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Link to tweet
"Can Bernie Sanders beat Donald Trump?" ABC News Chief White House Correspondent Jonathan Karl asked Messina on the Powerhouse Politics podcast on Wednesday.
"No," Messina responded.,,,,
"I think if you look at swing voters in this country they are incredibly focused on the economy," Messina replied. "I think today you look at it and say that Bernie Sanders is unlikely going to be able to stand up to the constant barrage that is Donald Trump on economic issues."
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)While Bernie Sanders has many, many fans, they do not make up a majority of voters in this country, I think. I'd vote for him if he were the nominee, of course, because I realize how limited a President's power really is. Congress would haul back on the reins immediately over some of his ideas.
Could be beat Trump? I don't know. I rather doubt it, frankly, even with my vote and the votes of other Democrats who understand that the President is not the ruler in this country. Enough people would probably be uncomfortable with his positions to keep him from winning. After all, he lost the primary election in 2016 to a woman who was not the most popular candidate ever to run for that office.
Personally, I don't think he can win the primary elections in 2020. There are too many other attractive candidates who share some of his positions on some things. They will get many of the votes he would need to win the nomination. So, I think the question is moot, really. I will not be supporting him in the primaries.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)That's not going to work on the Democratic side.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)There are a large number of real democrats with long memories who will not forgive or forget
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)he'll get my GE vote. As I said, the Congress owns the leash.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)I just fear that if the nominee is sanders, trump will win 45+ states
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)So, I don't know, really. It's too early to know. Trump could still crash and burn long before the election. That's my hope.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brooklynite
(93,873 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Link to tweet
?s=20
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BlueFlorida
(1,532 posts)in countries which have experienced it.
We have a lot of Democrats who have immigrated from Eastern Europe and I doubt many of them will vote for Sanders.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
samnsara
(17,570 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)Endlessly. It will be the constant drone under the Republicans' campaign strategy, as it has been for quite some time. Why? Because it works.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
In my very red area, socialism, abortion, and 'illegals' are the go-to scare words that motivate that side.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)I agree with Jim Messina on this https://politicalwire.com/2019/04/17/messina-says-sanders-cant-beat-trump/
Said Messina: I think if you look at swing voters in this country they are incredibly focused on the economy. I think today you look at it and say that Bernie Sanders is unlikely going to be able to stand up to the constant barrage that is Donald Trump on economic issues.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)I do not think that the Democratic Party can win with a socialist on the ticket
Link to tweet
Lets start with the whole country. Less than half of Americans say theyd vote for a socialist for president. More say theyd vote for an atheist or Muslim, according to a Gallup survey in May. Thats the same as 2015 when Sanders first launched his presidency, despite his efforts during that campaign to warm Americans up to socialism. A Monmouth University survey in April finds 57 percent of Americans think socialism is not compatible with American values.....
If were not careful, were going to end up reelecting the worst president in American history, said former Colorado governor John Hickenlooper. (He got booed by a gathering of Democrats in San Francisco for saying that.) Its also notable that the most vocal proponents of dropping socialism from the campaign trail are at the bottom of the polls right now....
Republicans are downright giddy about all this. Whats a scarier term to the American public than socialist? And with one of the leaders in the Democratic Party embracing it, their pitch to voters that Democrats want to radically change the country to something unrecognizable just got a lot easier.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Link to tweet
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Link to tweet
First, socialism is a red flag for Republicans and Republican-leaners to a degree that progressive (which 40 percent of Republicans view favorably) is not. Theres not even all that much payoff among Democrats, since 33 percent of Democrats have a negative view of that term, while only 12 percent have a very positive view of socialism. If you want a Democratic nominee to have the broadest ideological appeal, the most unifying descriptor among Democrats is progressive (88 percent), not socialism (65 percent).....
First, socialism is a red flag for Republicans and Republican-leaners to a degree that progressive (which 40 percent of Republicans view favorably) is not. Theres not even all that much payoff among Democrats, since 33 percent of Democrats have a negative view of that term, while only 12 percent have a very positive view of socialism. If you want a Democratic nominee to have the broadest ideological appeal, the most unifying descriptor among Democrats is progressive (88 percent), not socialism (65 percent).
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Link to tweet
-- FOR EXAMPLE: Take MEDICARE FOR ALL. When asked about supporting Medicare for All, and hearing it described as guaranteed health care coverage regardless of income, and every Americans health insurance would come from a single government-run plan, 41% favor it, 55% oppose and 4% are unsure. When Republicans start describing it as causing doctor shortages, longer wait times for urgent care and delays in access to the latest drugs for cancer and other serious diseases, the numbers move to 34% favor and 60% oppose.
-- THE GREEN NEW DEAL is actually above water when described as a plan that would work to address climate change and income inequality, and transition the United States from an economy built on fossil fuels to one driven by clean energy. 48% favor, 46% oppose and 7% are unsure.
IT SINKS when Republicans start describing it as potentially costing 93 trillion dollars and hiking energy bills by $3,000. It goes then to 32% support and 61% oppose. Polling memo Poll deck
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Link to tweet
Its Politics 101: When there are more conservative (and moderate) voters than liberal ones, its very difficult to put together a winning coalition with just a progressive base. The only way to do it is by betting that Trump is so toxic that a critical majority of voters will automatically reject him. That strategy didnt work well for Hillary Clinton in the last election.
Warren also carries other specific vulnerabilities into a matchup against Trump. She currently relies on a faction of white liberal support, struggling to win over African-American voters to her side. If Democrats believe the key to winning is by rallying their diverse base, its hard to see Warren accomplishing that goal. Her nomination threatens to be a double-whammy: turning off swing suburban voters without any gains in nonwhite voter turnout.
But make no mistake: Theyre playing with fire. Trump is highly vulnerable, but he has the ability to win a second term if the Democratic nominee appears as extreme as he is. Warren has a realistic chance of becoming the next president, but she also could jeopardize it all for the Democratic Party.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden