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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:55 AM Mar 2019

The Word "Socialism" Is Toxic in This Country

It shouldn't be, but it is, thanks to a constant repetition of that equation by Republicans for over 50 years. So, it's not a good word for presidential primary candidates to use loosely.

Instead, by replacing it with "Democratic Policies" when describing things like universal healthcare, tuition relief, and other concepts, the psychology is different. There are Democratic voters who hear the word "Socialism" and are so put off by the word that they don't look closely at the policy being discussed. That's not good. We need every Democratic voter.

Candidates who continue to align with the word "Socialism," even with modifications like "Democratic Socialism," are cutting their own chances of winning in primary elections in many states in this country. Worse, they're tying Socialism to the Democratic Party and hurting our chances of winning in many states in the general election.

Psychology. You'd think we'd understand that by now. It's not like it's a new thing. But, we don't. While that word is attractive to some voters in the Democratic party or on the left, it is anathema to other Democratic voters. We need their votes, too.

I like socialism. In my heart, I have always been a socialist, but I sure as Hell would not run for office as one. I'm smarter than that.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
105 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Word "Socialism" Is Toxic in This Country (Original Post) MineralMan Mar 2019 OP
From what I've noticed, the term is evolving... TCJ70 Mar 2019 #1
It has not evolved far enough yet. MineralMan Mar 2019 #4
No it's not. It means the same thing as it always has. NurseJackie Mar 2019 #20
Yes it is and you can thank Republicans labeling... TCJ70 Mar 2019 #23
It SHOULD not, tho. Words have meanings, and understanding Hortensis Mar 2019 #58
Language evolves... TCJ70 Mar 2019 #59
As Newt Gingrich would be the first to endorse, Hortensis Mar 2019 #60
What makes you think American voters care about the "greater good?" Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #72
Why do you think that that's anything remotely close to what I said? N/T TCJ70 Apr 2019 #74
"This isn't necessarily a bad thing or anything to run from." nt Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #75
That statement says nothing about the American voter in general...n/t TCJ70 Apr 2019 #79
Yep just like librul. The Republicans are masters doc03 Mar 2019 #2
It is toxic for very good reasons. CrossingTheRubicon Mar 2019 #3
I disagree. It's toxic because it has MineralMan Mar 2019 #8
No, it has been made toxic by the actions of socialists. CrossingTheRubicon Mar 2019 #10
Would you like to give me one example crazytown Mar 2019 #22
Depends on how you define the term "Democratic Socialist" but the Nordic model seems successful. TomSlick Mar 2019 #27
You are very wrong. nt Ferrets are Cool Mar 2019 #55
So use another word. greymattermom Mar 2019 #5
Why do you think "progressive" got popular again? LongtimeAZDem Mar 2019 #15
Repubs have convinced the masses of ignorant Americans that socialism and communism are the same. LonePirate Mar 2019 #6
It's not the word. It is the paradigm forklift Mar 2019 #7
No. It's the word. We need to replace that word with something else. MineralMan Mar 2019 #9
No re-branding or re-framing of socialism can redeem this failed ideology. CrossingTheRubicon Mar 2019 #11
Exactly, and that is what we should be selling, not socialism, MineralMan Mar 2019 #13
Socialism is antagonistic to Democracy, Justice, and Prosperity for All. CrossingTheRubicon Mar 2019 #17
Socialism is evil and the Democrats must launch a media-offensive to explain the difference. DetlefK Mar 2019 #12
We cannot undo 50 years of Republican demonization of that word. MineralMan Mar 2019 #14
Nah. We can not undue the horrible reality of what socialist states have done... CrossingTheRubicon Mar 2019 #18
I agree that this term is toxic Gothmog Mar 2019 #16
I think people said similar things about "liberal." David__77 Mar 2019 #19
Socialism stokes foreign and scary Awsi Dooger Mar 2019 #21
Defeating trump is the only thing that matter Gothmog Mar 2019 #24
Arguing about socialism is an absolute disastrous thing R B Garr Mar 2019 #25
I'm 100% with you, as is typical MM. mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #26
"A politician that is explaining is losing" - unknown source riverine Mar 2019 #28
Socialism?? Well...socialism is swell......?? Stuart G Mar 2019 #29
From CNN Gothmog Mar 2019 #30
That 1981 interview with Phil Donahue video will be devasting to the Democratic Party... Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #71
I fear that any emphasis on socialism will cost the Democrats some house seat Gothmog Mar 2019 #31
From AMJOY, we need Uniter Gothmog Mar 2019 #32
I agree. And I'm not surprised that many like Biden. MineralMan Mar 2019 #33
You cannot get the Democratic nomination without the support of African American voters Gothmog Mar 2019 #43
I think that some people need to expand their scope of vision. MineralMan Mar 2019 #44
African American voters are the base of the party Gothmog Mar 2019 #45
They are part of that base, certainly. MineralMan Mar 2019 #46
From the Washington Post-The GOP is giddy about running against a socialist Gothmog Jun 2019 #100
Good point! Florida Bull Mar 2019 #34
The United States is a huge country, with an amazing range MineralMan Mar 2019 #35
It is telling that trump is most worried about Beto and Biden Gothmog Mar 2019 #50
I agree, MM and have said in earlier threads: peggysue2 Mar 2019 #36
Yes. Some people think the word means something it doesn't mean MineralMan Mar 2019 #37
Political realism is vastly underrated peggysue2 Mar 2019 #40
I love Robert Reich's tweet about Truman's quote on Socialism Nanjeanne Mar 2019 #38
I agree, sadly. Turin_C3PO Mar 2019 #39
For people over 50 on the right, yes Mr Tibbs Mar 2019 #41
Is it heavily embraced by those under 40? MineralMan Mar 2019 #42
Yes, it is Mr Tibbs Mar 2019 #65
Opinion: The myth of ideology, and why Democrats' energy isn't all on the left Gothmog Mar 2019 #47
In my opinion, the majority of Democratic voters MineralMan Mar 2019 #48
As is normal for us, we are in agreement Gothmog Mar 2019 #49
I'll vote for Pam's sister Kamala, but yeah. :D LongtimeAZDem Mar 2019 #51
Damned Autocorrect! MineralMan Mar 2019 #52
You would think this would be obvious Meowmee Mar 2019 #53
Unfortunately, you are 100% correct MM. nt Ferrets are Cool Mar 2019 #54
This exactly. The term scares too many people who... brush Mar 2019 #56
Economic models point to a Trump blowout in 2020. Gothmog Mar 2019 #57
Part of the problem is that most people don't know what it means. The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #61
It's one of those words that means whatever the person using it thinks MineralMan Mar 2019 #62
Trump's Economic Team Pushes 'Socialism' Theme Gothmog Mar 2019 #63
Bernie should embrace it Mr Tibbs Mar 2019 #64
Trump plans to hit Democrats on "socialism" but faces own vulnerabilities Gothmog Mar 2019 #66
From our last real POTUS Gothmog Mar 2019 #67
If sanders is the nominee, trump wins Gothmog Apr 2019 #68
It is an aphrodisiac to a very small minority BlueFlorida Apr 2019 #69
Socialist programs have to be ushered in sans the "socialist" label.. Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #70
K and R. cwydro Apr 2019 #73
The republicans are good at propaganda. Turbineguy Apr 2019 #76
Needs to be more basic than "Democratic Policies" playaseeker Apr 2019 #77
all candidates need to review FDR's response to the same and act accordingly Kurt V. Apr 2019 #78
sounds good to me mikehiggins Apr 2019 #80
Sure do like them Socialist Hiways Wellstone ruled Apr 2019 #81
Trump supporters are suddenly socialists keithbvadu2 Apr 2019 #82
According to this study trump could win Gothmog Apr 2019 #83
According to Jim Messina, trump will beat sanders easily Gothmog Apr 2019 #84
That's certainly a plausible position to take. MineralMan Apr 2019 #86
the sanders camp seems to think that 30% of the Democratic vote is sufficient Gothmog Apr 2019 #87
Perhaps he's modeling his chances after Donald Trump's base. MineralMan Apr 2019 #89
I agree-there are too many real democrats with long memories Gothmog Apr 2019 #91
Well, I remain unconcerned. If he manages to get the nomination, MineralMan Apr 2019 #92
It goes without saying that I will support the nominee of the party Gothmog Apr 2019 #93
I'm not counting votes right now at all. MineralMan Apr 2019 #95
In 1984, I worked for months on Mondale's campaign...secure in the knowledge that he would lose. brooklynite Apr 2019 #96
We do not need a repeat of 1984 Gothmog Apr 2019 #98
Socialism is even more toxic BlueFlorida Apr 2019 #85
who else is using that term besides the media?..and trump. samnsara Apr 2019 #88
Every Republican candidate will be using that term. MineralMan Apr 2019 #90
Yep hurl Apr 2019 #94
Messina Says Sanders Can't Beat Trump Gothmog Apr 2019 #97
Washington Post-Sanders wants Americans to buy into socialism. He's got some convincing to do Gothmog Jun 2019 #99
The Democratic establishment fears the economy, complacency and "Sandersism" could let Trump win Gothmog Jun 2019 #101
New poll: Capitalism is more popular than socialism Gothmog Jun 2019 #102
Socialism polls badly and would kill a far left candidate Gothmog Aug 2019 #103
Why Elizabeth Warren Is Trump's Weakest Opponent Gothmog Aug 2019 #104
for this thread Gothmog Feb 2020 #105
 

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
1. From what I've noticed, the term is evolving...
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:58 AM
Mar 2019

...slowly, but still changing. Changing to mean government programs that benefit society at large. This isn't necessarily a bad thing or anything to run from.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
4. It has not evolved far enough yet.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:59 AM
Mar 2019

Truly it has not.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
20. No it's not. It means the same thing as it always has.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 04:27 PM
Mar 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
23. Yes it is and you can thank Republicans labeling...
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 05:25 PM
Mar 2019

...everything under the sun “socialism”.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
58. It SHOULD not, tho. Words have meanings, and understanding
Thu Mar 21, 2019, 11:07 AM
Mar 2019

those meanings are critical to not being jerked around like fools by political manipulators. Socialism is a real thing with a real meaning, and there are many well-studied variations on it with their own names. To vary from them is to vary from the truth.

The fairly generic term "mixed economy" is useful for discussing modern governments. It refers to the mixture of capitalism and some socialized programs that all advanced nations have. But at that wholly socialized systems are not automatic in mixed economies because they may not be the best answer or not accepted by their peoples.

The U.S. has had a mixed economy since the New Deal created very partially socialized programs such as Social Security. SS and Medicare are not examples of socialism. The VA, our only large true socialized system, delivers better care for far less than partially socialized Medicare. Of course the Republicans are trying to destroy it.

In talking socialism, let's never forget that no wholly socialist or other centralized leftist form of government has ever survived its many dysfunctions. Centralization of authority and control over services creates hugely serious problems for their peoples. Most that try it either degrade into authoritarian states, like Venezuela, and collapse or manage to survive by allowing capitalism to return and invigorate, like China, while still oppressing their people through central government

Those who want socialized medicine should recognize that our national healthcare system will be of the ACA-Medicare type, at best only partially socialized, and might want to focus on saving the VA as a banner for the future. I understand some who see themselves as Democratic Socialists imagine veterans' care rolled into some grand new MfA scheme. Ouch! That wouldn't happen if they learned what just a few terms really mean. Or maybe some'd learn they weren't all that committed to democratic socialism after all. Whatever.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
59. Language evolves...
Thu Mar 21, 2019, 11:31 AM
Mar 2019

...and I think this particular evolution is driven more but Republicans labeling everything under the sun Socialist if a Democrat supports it.

I know the historical definition of Socialism and how it’s been used, or attempted to be used, in the past and it doesn’t have a great track record. But that doesn’t mean we should ignore the fact that it’s definitely losing its old meaning quickly since you can interview as many people as you want and probably get as many different answers.

Many, if not most, of those answers will most like include something about government social programs meant to help everyone. Things change...and we shouldn’t be afraid of that.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
60. As Newt Gingrich would be the first to endorse,
Thu Mar 21, 2019, 11:38 AM
Mar 2019

being a major evolver. Let's stick to honesty because sloppiness in use of language makes it easily corruptible.

Those who imagine giving socialism kinder and gentler connotations through "evolution" will make it sound less extreme and more acceptable are making a huge mistake. The right is far, far better at this than the left because where the left would only weaken its language to make it more digestible, they use the confusion to weaponize it with their interpretation.

And never forget that when confused people do look up a definition of socialism, they find the traditional one, not a range of hopeful variations styled as "evolutions."

There is real strength in the fact that almost all Americans LOVE our mixed economic system and want to improve it. They want BETTER government programs. Smart candidates will use that. Extremist candidates will give Republicans the opportunity to rebrand the terms Democrat, liberal, and progressive with a scary-monster-under-the-bed name.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Kahuna7

(2,531 posts)
72. What makes you think American voters care about the "greater good?"
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 04:19 PM
Apr 2019

They never have and I can't see them getting any closer to that altruistic goal. Generally as a party, Democrats care about the greater good but it takes more than just Democrats to win elections.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
74. Why do you think that that's anything remotely close to what I said? N/T
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 05:22 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Kahuna7

(2,531 posts)
75. "This isn't necessarily a bad thing or anything to run from." nt
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 05:32 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
79. That statement says nothing about the American voter in general...n/t
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 06:00 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

doc03

(35,148 posts)
2. Yep just like librul. The Republicans are masters
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:58 AM
Mar 2019

At poisoning words.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

CrossingTheRubicon

(731 posts)
3. It is toxic for very good reasons.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:58 AM
Mar 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
8. I disagree. It's toxic because it has
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:08 PM
Mar 2019

been made to be toxic by Republicans. They have been demonizing that word since World War II. We have an entire generation of voters who has been affected by that demonization. And guess what? They vote in higher percentages than any other bloc of voters.

Reaction to that word varies in different parts of the country and in different states. In a few states, it gets hardly any negative reaction at all. However, in many other states, appearing to be in favor of socialism is a sure way to lose an election, primary or general.

Even our presidential election is a state-by-state thing. We have no national elections. A Democratic candidate can win California overwhelmingly, along with other states that tend to vote progressively, and still lose the presidential race. That's exactly what happened in 2016.

National politics is a strategic thing. To win, we have to win enough states to ensure an electoral college victory. If we fail to do that, we lose the White House. We also must win a majority in the Senate, which is another statewide election in every case.

We failed in 2016, in part due to our failure to round up and bring Democratic voters to the polling places in enough numbers. We could lose again in 2020 for the same reason.

We ought not to do that, I think. We ought, instead, to work to ensure a victory for Democrats that regains control of the White House and Congress. That, I believe, should be our primary goal. If it is not, and if we continue to bicker among ourselves over political labels, we may find ourselves in a place we do not want to be.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

CrossingTheRubicon

(731 posts)
10. No, it has been made toxic by the actions of socialists.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:10 PM
Mar 2019

It is an ideology that isn't compatible with liberalism.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

crazytown

(7,277 posts)
22. Would you like to give me one example
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 04:58 PM
Mar 2019

of a successful democratic Socialist nation?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

TomSlick

(11,035 posts)
27. Depends on how you define the term "Democratic Socialist" but the Nordic model seems successful.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:47 PM
Mar 2019

I define the term "Socialist" as I was taught in PoliSci classes decades ago - public ownership of the means of production. I am aware of no democratic countries that are truly socialist under that definition. The only countries that I can think of that are close to strictly socialist - again under the definition I was taught - are a very few Communist countries. (Communism is a governmental system with a socialist economy and a one-party, totalitarian political system.) Socialism is an effective bogey-man in this country because too many conflate the terms socialist and communist. The two terms are not synonymous. All communists are socialists but not all socialists are communists.

Socialism and Capitalism are largely irrelevant terms because economic systems are very rarely one or the other but are a mix of the two. The question is where on the spectrum between the two extremes any given economic system falls. The US has not been anything near a strictly capitalist country since the New Deal.

I am skeptical that any of the Democratic office holders who call themselves Democratic Socialists are really socialists. I have not heard of any calls to nationalize industries. It's just the labels that are problematic.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

greymattermom

(5,751 posts)
5. So use another word.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:59 AM
Mar 2019

Maybe security.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LongtimeAZDem

(4,494 posts)
15. Why do you think "progressive" got popular again?
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:36 PM
Mar 2019

It got rediscovered as an alternative to "liberal" around 2010 or so as a center-left descriptor, but has been commandeered by the far left more recently.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LonePirate

(13,386 posts)
6. Repubs have convinced the masses of ignorant Americans that socialism and communism are the same.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:00 PM
Mar 2019

Dems would be better off not using the word at all.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

forklift

(401 posts)
7. It's not the word. It is the paradigm
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:02 PM
Mar 2019

of socialism that is toxic. It makes everyone poor and oppressed. (Looks good on paper though)

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
9. No. It's the word. We need to replace that word with something else.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:09 PM
Mar 2019

It is toxic, politically, here in the USA. We can't change that in time for the 2020 election. We simply cannot.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

CrossingTheRubicon

(731 posts)
11. No re-branding or re-framing of socialism can redeem this failed ideology.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:13 PM
Mar 2019

It is like trying to rehabilitate fascism. It is a foolish pursuit.

We Democrats have our own proud liberal tradition.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
13. Exactly, and that is what we should be selling, not socialism,
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:33 PM
Mar 2019

which is totally misunderstood by the public. We cannot redefine it in people's minds. People are not listening to our attempts to do so. The effort to demonize the word "socialism" has succeeded over the past 50 or 60 years. It would take at least that long to redefine it in a positive way, and only if the demonizing disappeared, which it will not.

Democracy. Democratic. Justice. Prosperity for all. We have plenty of other words we can use. We should use them all freely and effectively.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

CrossingTheRubicon

(731 posts)
17. Socialism is antagonistic to Democracy, Justice, and Prosperity for All.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:39 PM
Mar 2019

Socialism has demonized itself because it is an anti-liberal ideology.

No "re-framing" will ever resuscitate socialism. Complete non-starter.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
12. Socialism is evil and the Democrats must launch a media-offensive to explain the difference.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:30 PM
Mar 2019

Socialism is an utopic system that always fails in reality and leads to shortages and tyranny. Look at the economic collapse of Eastern Europe during the Cold War.

What Democrats want is not Socialism. They want to implement a few cherrypicked socialist policies, not the whole thing.

The Democrats should aggressively call out the Republicans that they don't even know what they are talking about.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
14. We cannot undo 50 years of Republican demonization of that word.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:34 PM
Mar 2019

Truly we cannot.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

CrossingTheRubicon

(731 posts)
18. Nah. We can not undue the horrible reality of what socialist states have done...
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:42 PM
Mar 2019

in the name of this failed ideology.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
16. I agree that this term is toxic
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:38 PM
Mar 2019

We need to nominate an electable candidate

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

David__77

(23,220 posts)
19. I think people said similar things about "liberal."
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 03:52 PM
Mar 2019

I think a big part of the Democratic voters do not have a push button automatic response against “socialism.” I also think there are generational differences in play.

I think the left vs. right and socialist vs. capitalist thing last are overplayed. At the same time I’m ok with someone calling themselves a capitalist or a socialist. I’m interested in policy.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Awsi Dooger

(14,565 posts)
21. Socialism stokes foreign and scary
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 04:35 PM
Mar 2019

Liberal is applied to homegrown but flawed. That's the way I would summarize.

Not exactly a coincidence that socialism ramped up as soon as liberal started to lose effectiveness as a standalone.

Very true that we don't have a push button coordinated response to a socialism tag. They attach the word to anything and everything and their followers feel increasingly comfortable with it since they don't hear a short effective counter.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
24. Defeating trump is the only thing that matter
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 10:10 PM
Mar 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

R B Garr

(16,920 posts)
25. Arguing about socialism is an absolute disastrous thing
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:04 PM
Mar 2019

to be doing right now. We are not socialists. I don’t need some Senators distractions anymore. We already lost too much over this in 2016. He lost again in 2018. Arguing over socialism is a gift to Republicans.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
26. I'm 100% with you, as is typical MM.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:12 PM
Mar 2019

It's roughly about as smart as calling yourself a Pedophile as a candidate.

"What's the Problem? It's Latin, go look it up! It just means you love Children ... Doesn't everyone love children? "

As a candidate, you don't want have to be telling people to believe words mean something other than what 95% of people THINK THEY MEAN, even if you're technically correct.

Just my humble opinion.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

riverine

(516 posts)
28. "A politician that is explaining is losing" - unknown source
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 07:16 PM
Mar 2019

Having to explain the meaning of "socialism" is a certain loser.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Stuart G

(38,365 posts)
29. Socialism?? Well...socialism is swell......??
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 09:14 PM
Mar 2019

All cities have ...running water..Who provides the running water?
All cities have sewage systems..Who provides the sewage systems? (some rural areas do not, and home owners provide sewage systems.)
All cities have police departments?.....same as above...will they be there in an emergency?
All cities have fire departments?........same as above...will they be there in an emergency?
Yes, cities have emergency rooms for health care... No, the cities do not provide that..hospitals do.
.............................................in an emergency Do you get care?
Most cities have parks and playgrounds...Who provides them? Are they open to everyone?
Is there something about libraries?....can anyone go in and read a book?
How about public schools..Only for the rich, or for everyone in that town, What about that one?
...you mean education up to grade 12 for everyone?
Some communities have Jr. Colleges..are they open to everyone?

OH MY....is this ...............creeping socialism???....creep...creep

If "socialism" is toxic...it looks like we all have been .... poisoned..!!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Kahuna7

(2,531 posts)
71. That 1981 interview with Phil Donahue video will be devasting to the Democratic Party...
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 04:10 PM
Apr 2019

if Bernie is the nominee. And there are others.

?t=60
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
31. I fear that any emphasis on socialism will cost the Democrats some house seat
Fri Mar 15, 2019, 07:09 PM
Mar 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
32. From AMJOY, we need Uniter
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 12:11 PM
Mar 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
33. I agree. And I'm not surprised that many like Biden.
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 12:32 PM
Mar 2019

We need to win, and that's going to take someone with broad appeal, not narrow appeal.

I realize that's difficult for some to accept. Many people have very specific goals and are unwilling to consider anyone who doesn't share their exact goals. But, that's a mistake. A President can't actually cause much of anything to happen. Presidential powers are limited, and collective action by Congress is always needed to do most important things.

So, the President's job is to work on getting Congress to send him things that accomplish goals, not to tell Congress what precise actions that collective should take. That's hard to understand for many people. Many want a President who will push through their specific goals. They know what they want, and that's the main thing for them.

There are about 320 million individual people out there who have things they want. The President is not where wishes are granted, though. The President, if he or she is a good President, wants to achieve goals that help the most people, most of the time. Good Presidents do not take narrow views of long range goals. Instead, they push toward a larger, general goal of improving people's lives.

I hope we remember that as we move toward 2020 and look for a person who has that sort of idea of what a good President is. The narrower the view of a candidate, the less likely that candidate will be to win. We saw the result of that in 2016. We must not make that mistake again. We need to unite in our general goals, not separate due to narrow, personal goals.

I don't know if that's possible. For all I know, 2020 may be my last presidential election, based on statistical data on aging. I hope I go out in a hopeful time, rather than a fearful one.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
43. You cannot get the Democratic nomination without the support of African American voters
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 08:20 PM
Mar 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
44. I think that some people need to expand their scope of vision.
Mon Mar 18, 2019, 09:02 AM
Mar 2019

Understanding US politics requires a wide angle lens, not a narrow telescopic view. If the goal is to win, then we need voters from all segments of Democratic constituents.

It's a pretty simple equation, really.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
45. African American voters are the base of the party
Mon Mar 18, 2019, 09:41 AM
Mar 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
46. They are part of that base, certainly.
Mon Mar 18, 2019, 09:46 AM
Mar 2019

However, they are not the entire base of the party. It's a mistake to look at things from such a narrow perspective, I think.

The true base of the party is actually quite moderate in nature. It is made up of people who go to the polls and vote every time. Those who do not do that cannot be the base of any political party.

Many people claim to know who the base of the Democratic Party is. Many of those are dead wrong. The base is a very diverse group of voters who always vote for Democrats, and who always vote in every election. There is no other base. There are blocs of potential voters, but unless they actually show up and vote every time, they are not a "base" at all.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
100. From the Washington Post-The GOP is giddy about running against a socialist
Wed Jun 12, 2019, 06:19 PM
Jun 2019



Republicans are downright giddy about all this. What’s a scarier term to the American public than “socialist”? And with one of the leaders in the Democratic Party embracing it, their pitch to voters that Democrats want to radically change the country to something unrecognizable just got a lot easier.

“You add up things like packing the Supreme Court, getting rid of the electoral college, the Green New Deal and Medicare for none and you have a prescription of turning America into something it never has been and never should be,” Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said recently. “So we intend to be on the offense in running our races."

“We’re going into the war with some socialists,” Trump told a fundraiser in April.

This could be the defining debate of the 2020 election. Trump is so happy with that. Sanders is fine with that. The rest of the candidates aren’t so sure. But given the way this debate is shaping up, they may have no choice but to pick a side.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Florida Bull

(103 posts)
34. Good point!
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 12:49 PM
Mar 2019

I don’t think we even have a mainstream Socialist in our political system. Even Bernie Sanders is not a Socialist, but actually a Social Democrat, like in Denmark and Sweden. And, he should be emphasizing that.

But, Baby Boomers and the Silent Generation vote very consistently. And, many of them confuse the label “Democratic Socialist” with the 1950’s Soviet Union. They experienced the Red Scare and the peak of the Cold War.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
35. The United States is a huge country, with an amazing range
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 01:00 PM
Mar 2019

of demographics. I'm a boomer, and grew up in a different time from many people, but there are millions and millions of us out there, and we vote in every election. While I know what socialism is, in its various forms, that isn't the case for the majority of people. For most people it is just a generic label for something they have been taught to fear. That won't change.

The Germans had National Socialism. That was shortened to Nazism. The Soviet Union called itself the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Both have been long time adversaries and both used that label. It's no wonder that people born after WWII and who became adults during the Cold War don't like that label.

For the most recent couple of generations of voters, the "Socialist" label doesn't have the same negative connotations, but they're not numerous enough to be a majority of voters. In fact, many of them don't bother to vote at all. And then, we have a strong minority of voters who chose Donald Trump in 2016, for pete's sake.

If we are going to win in 2020, and by winning I mean taking back majority control of Congress as well as electing a Democrat as President, we're going to have to think about all of those demographic groups. If we do not, the same minority that elected Trump will elect more republicans, with the help of propaganda and lies.

We'd better get our act together, I think. We'd better get united pretty damned quickly.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
50. It is telling that trump is most worried about Beto and Biden
Mon Mar 18, 2019, 08:10 PM
Mar 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

peggysue2

(10,811 posts)
36. I agree, MM and have said in earlier threads:
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 01:16 PM
Mar 2019

If we are forced to defend socialism in 2020, we lose. Period. The word and the sense of the word simply doesn't fly.

Americans are not socialists nor do they like the idea of socialism. It matters little to explain that we live in a hybrid economy of public/private because most people stop listening after you utter the word 'socialism.'

It is indeed toxic in the larger political arena.

For 2020, winning is everything because without a win, without ridding ourselves of the Chaosmeister, all the things we view as important, vital, critical to our survival go out the window.

Without a Democratic victory in 2020, we might as well take up spitting in the wind.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
37. Yes. Some people think the word means something it doesn't mean
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 01:23 PM
Mar 2019

to a lot of people. It still carries a very, very negative connotation for a massive number of voters. Forgetting that will doom any candidate who adopts socialism as a campaign strategy. I'm not worried that a candidate who does that will get the nomination. That won't happen. What worries me is that those who want to champion socialism will simply not vote in 2020. That's the real danger, I think. And it's a scenario that could happen.

We really need to get a handle on this soon, because it won't be a socialist of any kind who comes away from the nominating convention as the nominee. That's not going to happen in 2020. It might in 2024 or 2028, but not in 2020. Socialism is a loaded word. And it's not loaded with winning right now.

Note: I am a philosophical socialist. But, I'm also a political realist.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

peggysue2

(10,811 posts)
40. Political realism is vastly underrated
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 02:24 PM
Mar 2019

Particularly in an election where we're fighting for our lives. Trump is awful but Trumpism is an existential threat. The Trumpster and his whole band of enablers need to be decisively repudiated, and then we start to repair the damage these thugs and criminals have perpetrated.

And yes, I agree. The true danger is that voters turn their back, stay home if their particular candidate doesn't win the nomination. Which is, of course, a decision to cut off your nose to spite your face. Because anything less than a win in the 2020 General will be an unmitigated disaster. For everyone.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Nanjeanne

(4,878 posts)
38. I love Robert Reich's tweet about Truman's quote on Socialism
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 02:12 PM
Mar 2019

?

Personally, couldn’t agree more.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Turin_C3PO

(13,650 posts)
39. I agree, sadly.
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 02:22 PM
Mar 2019

I do wish we could have an adult discussion about the merits or lack thereof of socialism, but unfortunately our country doesn’t seem ready to have a true conversation about the issue.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Mr Tibbs

(539 posts)
41. For people over 50 on the right, yes
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 02:39 PM
Mar 2019

It is heavily embraced by those under 40.

The rest of us don't fall for the labeling.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
42. Is it heavily embraced by those under 40?
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 02:51 PM
Mar 2019

Show me. I have not seen that in reality. So, show me that is the case.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Mr Tibbs

(539 posts)
65. Yes, it is
Thu Mar 21, 2019, 06:43 PM
Mar 2019

And if the Democratic party joins Trumps attacks against them, many millennials will vote with their feet.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/409877-poll-nearly-half-of-millennial-democrats-identify-as-socialist-or

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
47. Opinion: The myth of ideology, and why Democrats' energy isn't all on the left
Mon Mar 18, 2019, 07:43 PM
Mar 2019



The vast majority of Democratic primary voters then and now do not identify as democratic socialists. Perhaps Sanders capitalized on unaffiliated anti-establishment types and Democrats who preferred him despite his ideology and not because of it. Move forward to the 2020 contests. Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) is providing the most substantive, interesting agenda that committed progressives could hope to see. Yet she is lagging in the polls. If this was all about progressive ideology and policy plans, she’d be running rings around the rest of the field.

As for Sanders, he benefits this time around from 100 percent name identification. However, the flip side of 100 percent name ID is that he’s no longer new, no longer saying things no one else will. He’s just as much of a democratic socialist as he was in 2016, but in the space of a few days we’ve seen that the “energy” isn’t all on the left; it’s drifting toward a centrist, young, optimistic candidate. Voters follow the energy and the ethos. They don’t carry around a thermometer gauging where on the scale of ideological purity each candidate rates.....

All you need to be is progressive enough to win a Democratic primary. Seeming more moderate than the Sanders clan is an advantage in the general election.

Why are pundits, the media and party insiders so convinced that ideological extremism equals energy/success? Part of it may be wishful thinking for progressives. However, part of the difficulty is linguistic. "Moderate” sounds to many ears to mean mild-mannered, prone to compromise and wishy-washy in beliefs. Nonsense. If ever there was a radical moderate, a fervent centrist Democrat, it’s O’Rourke. And gosh, he’s showing that can be exciting.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
48. In my opinion, the majority of Democratic voters
Mon Mar 18, 2019, 07:51 PM
Mar 2019

want sanity, stability, and sensibility from their nominee in 2020. Biden will fit that bill nicely if he runs. Add a VP nominee with some fire who appeals to women and the younger demographic groups, and you have a winning ticket. Kamala Harris is a great fit.

That's my pick for the 2020 ticket. Biden/Harris 2020!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
49. As is normal for us, we are in agreement
Mon Mar 18, 2019, 08:09 PM
Mar 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LongtimeAZDem

(4,494 posts)
51. I'll vote for Pam's sister Kamala, but yeah. :D
Mon Mar 18, 2019, 08:13 PM
Mar 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Meowmee

(5,164 posts)
53. You would think this would be obvious
Mon Mar 18, 2019, 08:15 PM
Mar 2019

But apparently it isn’t 😳

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Ferrets are Cool

(21,063 posts)
54. Unfortunately, you are 100% correct MM. nt
Mon Mar 18, 2019, 09:16 PM
Mar 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

brush

(53,475 posts)
56. This exactly. The term scares too many people who...
Mon Mar 18, 2019, 09:19 PM
Mar 2019

still equate it with communist bogeymen.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
57. Economic models point to a Trump blowout in 2020.
Thu Mar 21, 2019, 10:53 AM
Mar 2019

I have seen similar studies. It is not a given that trump is beatable in 2020. If the economy is in good shape, then there are models and studies that show that trump can win. Obama left trump with a great economy and trump may not screw up the Obama economy before 2020 and get re-elected.



I am not counting on the Obama economy faltering and so I am worried. We have to defeat trump We have to nominate the most electable candidate
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,280 posts)
61. Part of the problem is that most people don't know what it means.
Thu Mar 21, 2019, 11:46 AM
Mar 2019

Even those who claim to embrace it and call themselves socialists probably aren't real socialists at all. Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production and distribution of goods and services are owned and controlled collectively - that is, by the government. "Democratic socialism" assumes that the government, elected by the people, is controlled by the people and therefore the people own and control the means of production and distribution of all goods and services. But socialism, as normally defined, does not allow for private enterprise. You don't own your own business; you don't own stock in a private business. The government that you elected owns and manages everything. I doubt very much that this is the kind of arrangement most Americans want or would vote for.

What many progressives are promoting as socialism is really just a highly-regulated capitalist system in which the government, via taxation, provides a strong social safety net that includes benefits like universal health care, higher education, child care, adequate pensions, etc., which are often touted as "free." Of course those things are not free; they are paid for or subsidized by the government through taxes and are therefore both far less expensive than if supplied by private businesses, and are equally available to everyone. This is basically the Scandinavian model, which is often described as "socialist," but it really isn't.

In Norway, for example, benefits like child care, medical treatment and pensions are "free" or low-cost, in that they are provided by the government. But Norway is not a socialist country; it's a constitutional monarchy with a democratically-elected parliament and a highly-regulated capitalist economy. The only way in which Norway comes even close to socialism is with respect to Equinor (formerly Statoil), its oil production/distribution corporation, 70% of whose stock is owned by the Norwegian government and a government pension fund. The remaining 30% of its stock is publicly traded. Equinor owns the North Sea oil production facilities as well as the gas stations (production and distribution).

The Government Pension Fund Global, also known as the Oil Fund, was established in 1990 to invest the surplus revenues of the Norwegian petroleum sector. It has over US$1 trillion in assets, including 1.3% of global stocks and shares, making it the world’s largest sovereign wealth fund. In May 2018 it was worth about $195,000 per Norwegian citizen. It also holds portfolios of real estate and fixed-income investments. Many companies are excluded by the fund on ethical grounds.

The Government Pension Fund Norway is smaller and was established in 1967 as a type of national insurance fund. It is managed separately from the Oil Fund and is limited to domestic and Scandinavian investments and is therefore a key stock holder in many large Norwegian companies, predominantly via the Oslo Stock Exchange.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway

Income from pension fund investments as well as regular taxes support the country's social safety net. Norwegians are taxed on their assets, and there are also value-added taxes and special taxes on things like cars, cigarettes and liquor. I have a relative in Bergen who rolls her own cigarettes, which is a fairly common practice there because the tax on pre-made cigarettes is so high. But social services like "free" college and "free" health care are not free; they are paid for by taxes and investments from the sovereign wealth fund. And apart from Equinor, corporations are not government-owned, but are owned and operated by private individuals. There is even a stock exchange in which the stock in private corporations is publicly traded, just like in the US. It has an enviable social welfare system, made possible at least in part by investment in the income derived from its most important natural resource. But it is not a socialist country. If we're going to deal with right-wing accusations about socialism we are going to have to understand what it means.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
62. It's one of those words that means whatever the person using it thinks
Thu Mar 21, 2019, 01:31 PM
Mar 2019

it means. Which makes it one of those useless words we should probably stop using, as far as I'm concerned.

It often gets an adjective tacked onto it, besides, as in "National Socialism," Soviet Socialist Republics," or "Democratic Socialism."

It has become meaningless in its original sense, which you accurately provided. Nobody wants pure socialism. It has never existed, and never will, as the system of any government or economy. It's not viable in either.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
63. Trump's Economic Team Pushes 'Socialism' Theme
Thu Mar 21, 2019, 06:30 PM
Mar 2019

trump will use socialism to attack our nominee if we are not careful https://politicalwire.com/2019/03/21/trumps-economic-team-pushes-socialism-theme/

Politico: “President Trump has enlisted his senior economic advisers to flesh out one of his early 2020 presidential campaign themes: Socialism is coming. In recent months, traditionally staid official White House economic reports and briefings have begun to emphasize the potentially massive costs of an ambitious socialist agenda and warn that America could transform into a Cold War dystopia.”
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Mr Tibbs

(539 posts)
64. Bernie should embrace it
Thu Mar 21, 2019, 06:37 PM
Mar 2019

And see where it ends up.

For people over 50, it's toxic. To folks under 40, it's the future.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
66. Trump plans to hit Democrats on "socialism" but faces own vulnerabilities
Mon Mar 25, 2019, 04:33 PM
Mar 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
67. From our last real POTUS
Tue Mar 26, 2019, 02:02 AM
Mar 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
68. If sanders is the nominee, trump wins
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 03:44 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BlueFlorida

(1,532 posts)
69. It is an aphrodisiac to a very small minority
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 03:45 PM
Apr 2019

rest consider it a poison.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Kahuna7

(2,531 posts)
70. Socialist programs have to be ushered in sans the "socialist" label..
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 04:06 PM
Apr 2019

That's the way it's always been. When people hear socialism they hear income redistribution. Most people don't like that. They're not interested in "the greater good."

Sanders is a lifelong socialist maverick and wants to move his brand of socialism into the mainstream no matters what chaos ensues for the masses as a result.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

cwydro

(51,308 posts)
73. K and R.
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 04:38 PM
Apr 2019

Sadly, this is true...at least at this point in our country’s history.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Turbineguy

(37,212 posts)
76. The republicans are good at propaganda.
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 05:35 PM
Apr 2019

They learned it from the Nazis and the Soviets.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

playaseeker

(59 posts)
77. Needs to be more basic than "Democratic Policies"
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 05:41 PM
Apr 2019

Republicans have weaponized "Freedom" to mean everything that Democrats are against, but they have left the whole "Justice" side of the equation open. The general angst that pervades American right now is based (I believe) on the lack of fair play and justice. The rich have a different set of rules and the average Joe is just treading water. I think Democrats should use these terms:

Level Playing Field
Fair Play
Same Rules for Everyone
Unlock Opportunity
Fair Pay and Fair Share of the Profits

Socialism is toxic. Justice and fairness are as American as apple pie

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Kurt V.

(5,624 posts)
78. all candidates need to review FDR's response to the same and act accordingly
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 05:41 PM
Apr 2019

so it's much longer than 50 yrs ago.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

mikehiggins

(5,614 posts)
80. sounds good to me
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 06:10 PM
Apr 2019

I think Democratic Policies would be a much easier sell and not really call for much in the explanation of what was meant. Count me in.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
81. Sure do like them Socialist Hiways
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 06:29 PM
Apr 2019

I use. Darn if that Socialist water system is not the best thing since having my own Well,darn I stay in the House now turn this lever and water comes out. Wow,got indoor Plumbing thanks to that new newfangled pipe that goes out to the one in the Street,understand my neighbor's share the cost,darn best part,wont have to put the Parka On to go out to the little shack in the back yard there.

Forgot,got these light things that you just flip this switch thing in the up position and shucks,that light bulb lights up. Sure nice to know the REA was funded by my Neighbors also,darn Socialist policies just shined some major light on Ignorance.

Darn,it is so wonderful to be a Socialist rather than Blissfully Ignorant. Now if I can only remember where I put my Subsidized Refreshment.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

keithbvadu2

(36,369 posts)
82. Trump supporters are suddenly socialists
Sun Apr 14, 2019, 10:53 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
83. According to this study trump could win
Mon Apr 15, 2019, 01:52 PM
Apr 2019

There are posters who believe that we can nominate the most liberal/socialist nominee as possible and that candidate will easily win because everyone hates trump. It is their position that this is a historic opportunity to nominate someone would otherwise not be electable. This theory is wrong in that most POTUS are re-elected if the economy is good. Here is a scary study that shows this



There are good reasons to doubt this study


I do not believe that trump is assured of winning. If we want to win, Democrats need to nominate a strong nominee who is NOT too far out of the mainstream
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
84. According to Jim Messina, trump will beat sanders easily
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:35 PM
Apr 2019



Political adviser Jim Messina, who managed former President Barack Obama’s re-election campaign in 2012, answered a question Wednesday that has been on the minds of Democrats looking ahead at the 2020 presidential race.

"Can Bernie Sanders beat Donald Trump?" ABC News Chief White House Correspondent Jonathan Karl asked Messina on the Powerhouse Politics podcast on Wednesday.

"No," Messina responded.,,,,

"I think if you look at swing voters in this country they are incredibly focused on the economy," Messina replied. "I think today you look at it and say that Bernie Sanders is unlikely going to be able to stand up to the constant barrage that is Donald Trump on economic issues."
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
86. That's certainly a plausible position to take.
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:43 PM
Apr 2019

While Bernie Sanders has many, many fans, they do not make up a majority of voters in this country, I think. I'd vote for him if he were the nominee, of course, because I realize how limited a President's power really is. Congress would haul back on the reins immediately over some of his ideas.

Could be beat Trump? I don't know. I rather doubt it, frankly, even with my vote and the votes of other Democrats who understand that the President is not the ruler in this country. Enough people would probably be uncomfortable with his positions to keep him from winning. After all, he lost the primary election in 2016 to a woman who was not the most popular candidate ever to run for that office.

Personally, I don't think he can win the primary elections in 2020. There are too many other attractive candidates who share some of his positions on some things. They will get many of the votes he would need to win the nomination. So, I think the question is moot, really. I will not be supporting him in the primaries.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
87. the sanders camp seems to think that 30% of the Democratic vote is sufficient
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:49 PM
Apr 2019

I disagree


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
89. Perhaps he's modeling his chances after Donald Trump's base.
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:51 PM
Apr 2019

That's not going to work on the Democratic side.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
91. I agree-there are too many real democrats with long memories
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:54 PM
Apr 2019

There are a large number of real democrats with long memories who will not forgive or forget

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
92. Well, I remain unconcerned. If he manages to get the nomination,
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:55 PM
Apr 2019

he'll get my GE vote. As I said, the Congress owns the leash.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
93. It goes without saying that I will support the nominee of the party
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 04:01 PM
Apr 2019

I just fear that if the nominee is sanders, trump will win 45+ states

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
95. I'm not counting votes right now at all.
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 04:04 PM
Apr 2019

So, I don't know, really. It's too early to know. Trump could still crash and burn long before the election. That's my hope.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

brooklynite

(93,873 posts)
96. In 1984, I worked for months on Mondale's campaign...secure in the knowledge that he would lose.
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 04:39 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
98. We do not need a repeat of 1984
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 10:29 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BlueFlorida

(1,532 posts)
85. Socialism is even more toxic
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:38 PM
Apr 2019

in countries which have experienced it.

We have a lot of Democrats who have immigrated from Eastern Europe and I doubt many of them will vote for Sanders.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

samnsara

(17,570 posts)
88. who else is using that term besides the media?..and trump.
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:50 PM
Apr 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
90. Every Republican candidate will be using that term.
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 03:52 PM
Apr 2019

Endlessly. It will be the constant drone under the Republicans' campaign strategy, as it has been for quite some time. Why? Because it works.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

hurl

(931 posts)
94. Yep
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 04:04 PM
Apr 2019

In my very red area, socialism, abortion, and 'illegals' are the go-to scare words that motivate that side.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
97. Messina Says Sanders Can't Beat Trump
Wed Apr 17, 2019, 05:02 PM
Apr 2019

I agree with Jim Messina on this https://politicalwire.com/2019/04/17/messina-says-sanders-cant-beat-trump/

Jim Messina, who managed Barack Obama’s re-election campaign in 2012, told ABC News that Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) cannot beat President Trump in 2020.

Said Messina: “I think if you look at swing voters in this country they are incredibly focused on the economy. I think today you look at it and say that Bernie Sanders is unlikely going to be able to stand up to the constant barrage that is Donald Trump on economic issues.”
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
99. Washington Post-Sanders wants Americans to buy into socialism. He's got some convincing to do
Wed Jun 12, 2019, 06:18 PM
Jun 2019

I do not think that the Democratic Party can win with a socialist on the ticket



It’s a risky move, not least because he has some convincing to do — among his 2020 Democratic field and the whole country. “Should the Democratic Party embrace socialism?” is at the heart of its debate about what kind of candidate can beat President Trump.

Let’s start with the whole country. Less than half of Americans say they’d vote for a socialist for president. More say they’d vote for an atheist or Muslim, according to a Gallup survey in May. That’s the same as 2015 when Sanders first launched his presidency, despite his efforts during that campaign to warm Americans up to socialism. A Monmouth University survey in April finds 57 percent of Americans think socialism is not compatible with American values.....

“If we’re not careful, we’re going to end up reelecting the worst president in American history,” said former Colorado governor John Hickenlooper. (He got booed by a gathering of Democrats in San Francisco for saying that.) It’s also notable that the most vocal proponents of dropping socialism from the campaign trail are at the bottom of the polls right now....

Republicans are downright giddy about all this. What’s a scarier term to the American public than “socialist”? And with one of the leaders in the Democratic Party embracing it, their pitch to voters that Democrats want to radically change the country to something unrecognizable just got a lot easier.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
101. The Democratic establishment fears the economy, complacency and "Sandersism" could let Trump win
Wed Jun 19, 2019, 04:20 PM
Jun 2019



Jon Cowan, the president and co-founder of the moderate group, said many of the 23 candidates running for president can both excite the party’s base and appeal to disaffected Trump supporters. “I believe a gay Midwestern mayor can beat Trump,” he said in a speech on Tuesday morning. “I believe an African American senator can beat Trump. I believe a Western governor, a female senator, a Latino Texan or a former vice president can beat Trump. But I don’t believe a self-described democratic socialist can win, nor a Democratic Party that embraces those views or allows itself to be easily defined and labeled by them.”
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
102. New poll: Capitalism is more popular than socialism
Tue Jun 25, 2019, 01:53 PM
Jun 2019



A new Pew Research poll finds that “a much larger share of Americans have a positive impression of capitalism (65%) than socialism (42%).” The partisan gap is significant, though: “Nearly eight-in-ten Republicans and Republican leaning independents (78%) express somewhat or very positive reactions to the term, while just over half of Democrats and Democratic leaners (55%) say they have a positive impression.” The intensity of anti-socialism sentiment (63 percent of Republicans have a very negative view) dwarfs that of pro-socialism sentiment (only 14 percent of Democrats have a very positive view).....

First, “socialism” is a red flag for Republicans and Republican-leaners to a degree that “progressive” (which 40 percent of Republicans view favorably) is not. There’s not even all that much payoff among Democrats, since 33 percent of Democrats have a negative view of that term, while only 12 percent have a very positive view of socialism. If you want a Democratic nominee to have the broadest ideological appeal, the most unifying descriptor among Democrats is “progressive” (88 percent), not socialism (65 percent).....

First, “socialism” is a red flag for Republicans and Republican-leaners to a degree that “progressive” (which 40 percent of Republicans view favorably) is not. There’s not even all that much payoff among Democrats, since 33 percent of Democrats have a negative view of that term, while only 12 percent have a very positive view of socialism. If you want a Democratic nominee to have the broadest ideological appeal, the most unifying descriptor among Democrats is “progressive” (88 percent), not socialism (65 percent).
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
103. Socialism polls badly and would kill a far left candidate
Wed Aug 14, 2019, 03:05 PM
Aug 2019



THE MAIN TAKEAWAYS are that socialism, broadly speaking, is unpopular, but Republicans have work to do if they want to tarnish some key Democratic proposals. Once voters hear about the agenda as framed by Republicans, 61% say it is socialist. Calling Democrats’ policies “socialist” causes a 10-point drop in their popularity.

-- FOR EXAMPLE: Take ‘MEDICARE FOR ALL.’ When asked about supporting Medicare for All, and hearing it described as “guaranteed health care coverage regardless of … income, and every American’s health insurance would come from a single government-run plan,” 41% favor it, 55% oppose and 4% are unsure. When Republicans start describing it as causing “doctor shortages, longer wait times for urgent care and delays in access to the latest drugs for cancer and other serious diseases,” the numbers move to 34% favor and 60% oppose.

-- THE ‘GREEN NEW DEAL’ is actually above water when described as a plan that “would work to address climate change and income inequality, and transition the United States from an economy built on fossil fuels to one driven by clean energy.” 48% favor, 46% oppose and 7% are unsure.

IT SINKS when Republicans start describing it as potentially costing “93 trillion dollars” and hiking energy bills by $3,000. It goes then to 32% support and 61% oppose. Polling memo … Poll deck
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
104. Why Elizabeth Warren Is Trump's Weakest Opponent
Sun Aug 18, 2019, 11:37 AM
Aug 2019



Even if voters aren’t dwelling on policy specifics, their ideological perception of the candidates makes a huge difference. Democrats deliberately avoided invoking polarizing cultural issues when competing for swing districts last year—a strategy that allowed them to comfortably win back the House majority. The relative few who invoked a populist message like Warren’s lost winnable suburban seats.

It’s Politics 101: When there are more conservative (and moderate) voters than liberal ones, it’s very difficult to put together a winning coalition with just a progressive base. The only way to do it is by betting that Trump is so toxic that a critical majority of voters will automatically reject him. That strategy didn’t work well for Hillary Clinton in the last election.

Warren also carries other specific vulnerabilities into a matchup against Trump. She currently relies on a faction of white liberal support, struggling to win over African-American voters to her side. If Democrats believe the key to winning is by rallying their diverse base, it’s hard to see Warren accomplishing that goal. Her nomination threatens to be a double-whammy: turning off swing suburban voters without any gains in nonwhite voter turnout.

But make no mistake: They’re playing with fire. Trump is highly vulnerable, but he has the ability to win a second term if the Democratic nominee appears as extreme as he is. Warren has a realistic chance of becoming the next president, but she also could jeopardize it all for the Democratic Party.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
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