This is truly a revolutionary proposal: all Americans

[Uncle Joe]

Link to tweet

(snip)

Other experts say these criticisms miss the mark. If the plans are paid for with higher taxes on affluent Americans, they will ultimately redistribute resources down the income distribution, said Marshall Steinbaum, a former researcher at the Roosevelt Institute who was recently hired as an economics professor at the University of Utah.

Student debt forgiveness would also help stimulate economic growth by freeing borrowers to buy homes and improve their credit, while primarily benefiting racial minorities, according to Steinbaum and researchers at the Levy Institute, a left-leaning think tank. Omar, who has student debt, said in a statement that the plan would “unleash billions of dollars in economic growth.”

Additionally, poorer Americans would see the percentage of their income held in debt fall much more dramatically than that of higher earners under the plan, Steinbaum said. Steinbaum has also disputed Looney’s analysis, arguing it ignores people who have so much debt they cannot pay.

(snip)

Supporters say making government programs also available to the affluent makes them more politically durable, citing the popularity of programs such as libraries and K-12 public education, though critics contend such programs offer help to those who do not need it.

(snip)


https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/sanders-to-propose-canceling-entire-16-trillion-in-us-student-loan-debt-escalating-democratic-policy-battle/2019/06/23/1eed053a-9561-11e9-aadb-74e6b2b46f6a_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.39ff862f4e76

[Farmer-Rick]

1. Oh yeah baby

That will kick start our real economy so hard. All that wealth going to line the pockets of already excessively wealthy kings of capitalism going to buy houses, furniture, cars and food. The economy would boom.

[Mr.Bill]

2. What are we doing to reward

people who paid off their student loan?

[Farmer-Rick]

13. It use to be easy to pay off your loans

Today interest constantly accrues and compounds so that you end up paying interest on interest on interest. A $60,000 loan can turn into $160,000.00 (the cost of a small house) in 5 years. Yes, this really happens. It's NOT the initial loan they are paying back that hurts our economy. It's the bank's compounded interest. And the interest accrues even when the loans are deferred while the kid is in college or in the military.

I paid off my loans too but there were restrictions on charging constantly accrued interest...not anymore. It's predatory lending for students now a days. It's NOT a fair deal when we were giving banks 0% interest loans but our kids get to pay 6 to 10%.

You were lucky you were able to either miss out on the worse of the predatory loans, not need a large amount or you made enough in the first five years of your career that you were able to pay them off. But do you really see kids today or even 5 years ago getting starter jobs so that they can pay off constantly accruing interest on a $60,000 loan? I certainly don't the economy is not giving our kids a chance to pay back the loans.

[Mr.Bill]

16. Then we should change the rules about the interest rates.

I just don't think it's fair to completely forgive all the student loans without giving some relief to those who paid them off in the past.

[Farmer-Rick]

22. Yeah, I'll go for some kind of compensation to folks who paid back

their loans already.

Especially if they had to pay off those predatory compound interest loans. There wont be many and it has to have a limit on how far back we pay out. I don't think I should be paid back, but I paid off my loans 35 years ago.

[Politicub]

25. It's not a reward. Not everything has to be a reward for everyone. This would be a benevolent act

by the nation.

That's one of the problems with the U.S. Everyone is so concerned about what's in it for them. And if there isn't anything, then they don't want anyone to benefit.

Forgiving loans would unleash more consumer spending because the amount of disposable income that would be created.

There would be a positive effect on mental health because the amount of stress that so many people have would be alleviated.

Rewards, indeed.

[Mr.Bill]

40. First of all, I'm not interested in what's in it for me.

I never had student loans.

Why don't we just pay off everyone's car loans, too. That would serve the same purpose you outline in your post.

I'm all for interest reductions, etc. to help people out but it is not fair to forgive loans for people who borrowed money and do nothing for people who struggled to make the payments and paid the loan off.

[Politicub]

43. Because we have decided, as a society, that education is important to ensure a functioning society

Otherwise, we would not have public education. Now, some do not subscribe to this belief. But those people are wrong and in the minority.

Car loans are not the same as investments in education. Running up a credit card at Macys is not investing in any kind of better future. Perhaps Macys debt can lead to a future where the borrower is better looking for a period of time, but eventually fashions go out of style.

Besides, defaulting on a car or credit card can be dismissed via a bankruptcy proceeding. People who borrow money for education can not avail themselves to bankruptcy relief.

So I'm glad you responded. I should have noted that education borrowers are disadvantaged over other borrowers.

If we are not going to invest more dollars into relieving students of debt, perhaps we should allow student loan borrowers the same access to bankruptcy law that other borrowers and corporations have. At a minimum the playing field should be leveled.

[Midnightwalk]

37. Say there is nothing

Would you be opposed to student debt relief?

I would be for some amount of retroactive relief maybe based on years since paid off, but I would back relief even if it weren’t retroactive.

[leftofcool]

45. Sorry, we don't reward people in this country for being responsible

[customerserviceguy]

54. Oh, you and I don't count

we probably got our student loans when higher education was cheaper.

[Mr.Bill]

57. I understand,

but I never had student loans.

[customerserviceguy]

58. Then,

no problem!

[infullview]

3. The problem with this

is what do you do for all the poor slobs who got stuck with big student debt and are treading water to try to make payments? What about people who paid off their debt; how is that fair to them? I would love it if my daughter didn't have to take loans to go to college. I think if we do anything like this is must be to support our land grant state colleges.

[Farmer-Rick]

15. Your daughter shouldn't have to take an 8% constantly accruing interest loan

to go work to make herself a productive citizen.

Now a days, most student loans accrue interest while the kid is in college or deferred the pay back.

It's turned into a scam for banks. A $60,000 loan turns into a $160,000 and you think a kid with a starter job can pay it off?

It's never going to happen and the kid can't even get rid of it in bankruptcy. It's turned our children into profit centers for a handful of excessively wealthy cons.

[infullview]

66. It's so much worse than that.

First year students can only get a maximum of about $1500 in unsecured loans. Any additional loans must be cosigned by the parents. In my case we had children late in life so as I'm nearing retirement, I'm forced to sign a loan I probably won't live long enough to pay back if something ever happened to my child (like accidental death for example) so now I'm also forced to pay for a life insurance policy to cover me just in case. The whole thing is a big fucking scam!

[Farmer-Rick]

68. Oh, I'm so sorry

It shouldn't be that way.

I managed to get my 2 through college without loans. Only because we managed to save enough....(but the amount we thought we needed kept getting bigger and bigger as college tuition became a profit center for elite capitalist kings.) But then when they went for their masters degree, they had to take loans.

It's just another con for a handful of excessively rich people to feed off the rest if us.

[infullview]

70. Even though my daughter is 21 and has her own job and apartment, she can't claim independent

on financial aid. Parents are literally forced to be cosigners until the child is past the age of 26. These are all federal mandates which rig the system so the asshole banks can make unreasonable profits off the backs of students and their parents. Why are student loans 5-8% when prime is 2? ALSO, they make these loans to parents without regard to any normal underwriting metrics such as debt ratio. It's just like before the great recession when mortgages were being handed out to people they knew could never pay it back. A loan is a loan and should have a uniform code of scrutiny applied regardless of what it's for.

If you'r going to make a student loan, it should be for the student and underwritten by we-the-people. We need educated kids to remain competitive and solve problems like global warming. We'll never have that under the current system.

[Farmer-Rick]

71. So true.

[Politicub]

27. Because this benefit wouldn't be for the person who paid off their student debt.

It is for people who are in debt.

It's selfish to always want a piece of a government program. And if someone doesn't get their piece, then they don't want anyone to benefit.

You should consider it a blessing that if your daughter doesn't need to take a loan to go to college. And remember, that this wipes the slate clean for everyone. It will be coupled with tuition-free college. That's part of the deal.

I graduated in the mid-90s from a state school. I grew up poor and was the recipient of the Pell Grant but still needed to supplement my education with loans. Should everyone have received a Pell Grant? The kids who grew up in poverty got it, so why didn't the silver spoon kids get it? Boo freaking hoo.

We're never going to get anywhere with solving social problems without worrying about coddling people who don't need the help.

[NYMinute]

4. Another stunt timed for elections

This bill ain't going anywhere. It won't even go through committee.

[left-of-center2012]

5. Is Bernie promising "pie in the sky"?

At some point, promising 'everything' sounds like empty promises.

"You get a car,
and you get a car,
and you get a car."

[customerserviceguy]

55. No

It's pie in interstellar space.

[George II]

69. Sounds like Herbert Hoover:

[pecosbob]

6. Revolutionary? No. Long overdue? Yes.

[McKim]

7. Let's Do It!!!!!

Yes, it does not seem fair to those who paid off loans but that should not stop us from making social progress. Our country is so behind in Education and this right is readily available in Europe.

[RobertDevereaux]

8. Precisely right!

[graeme_macquarrie]

9. Hopefully

They will also eliminate income taxes on forgiven debt.
I wonder if Bernie would consider mortgage forgiveness for those with financial difficulties, or those who become disabled, or otherwise unable to pay?

[George II]

10. Can I get him to pay off my mortgage and car loan? How about credit card balances?

[oasis]

12. Not to worry, those will be taken care of in his second term. nt

[Farmer-Rick]

17. Well, I suspect from your Canadian flag you can't

But if you took out a loan to go to college for $60,000 and it turns into $160,000 as interest piles upon interest upon interest, I think maybe we should as a country address it and NOT blame the victim. And even though you are in college, the military or working a minimum wage starter job you still get to accrue interest on those college loans.

And thanks to congress you get to be a loan slave forever, or until you die, because even if you file for bankruptcy you will have to pay the rich bankers off. Don't you just love capitalism? Turning our children into life long debt slaves just so they can be more productive citizens.

I say we should at the minimum address the huge problem waiting to blow up in our face because those kids are NOT going to ever be able to pay off those loans.

[Politicub]

44. No, but you can declare bankruptcy and have the debt dismissed. Student loan borrowers are

disadvantaged when it comes to bankruptcy. Education loans are exempt from bankruptcy relief.

[namahage]

62. So then, like bankruptcy,

will a forgiven student loan also show up on one's credit and be impossible to remove for up to 10 years?

Why couldn't we just make student loan debt dischargeable in bankruptcy, like other forms of consumer debt? That would provide relief to those who truly need the help, while not punishing those who made--or are still making--efforts to repay their debt.

[AlexSFCA]

11. "All" student debt forgiven?

this sounds more and more like October revolution to me.
Let’s nationalize private institutions.

[Dopers_Greed]

14. I agree that something needs to be done about student loan debt, but...

I think forgiving all loans is going too far.

I was able to get through college without accruing any debt. Granted, my tuition was covered, but I still had to bust my ass working the whole way through to pay for living expenses. This ended up hurting me later on. Since I had to work jobs that actually paid, I was unable to do free internships related to my field of study, and that made it harder for me to find a job post-college.

They give out credit cards now that the balances are tacked on to student loans. I actually knew people that would buy beer and weed and charge it to their student loan balance. I know I'm falling into the conservative "buying lobster with food stamps" argument, but it's true in this case.

Here's some ideas that would make student loan reform more palatable to most people:

-Forgiveness only applies to money spent on tuition
-New rules to make the cap on monthly payments lower
-Limits on the amount of borrowing per person
-Tuition limits on universities

[Farmer-Rick]

19. Interest accrued on interest on interest even while in college so that small loans become giant

That is a bomb wailing to explode.

Naive kids get loans at 8% adding interest all the while they are in college or in the military. Even when the loan is deferred it accrues interest. Do you really think a kid with a $30,000 loan that turns into a $100,000 loan by the time they graduate will be able to pay it off with their starter job at minimum wage? It's a bomb and it is affecting the economy as a whole.

[jmowreader]

18. What will actually happen

My paper runs a lot of employment ads demanding a bachelor's degree in anything. Today's Deep Dark Secret is those employers don't give a fuck about what you learned, they only care that you're a 22-year-old kid walking into the workplace with $150,000 in student debt - none of which is dischargeable in bankruptcy. This locks you into an evil workplace as effectively as health insurance used to when you could reject people for pre-existing conditions.

If we decide to give everyone a no-charge bachelor's degree, the bachelor's degree will become the new high school diploma. You'll need a master's degree to get a good job. If we then make the master's degree free, you'll need a Ph.D. to sell used cars.

I wonder how much of Bernie's interest in free college comes from wanting people to have bachelor's degrees without debt, and how much comes from the fact his wife ran a $33,000/year basketweaving school into the ground.

[Farmer-Rick]

20. Free college didn't destroy the education system in Denmark or Norway.

College in England was free until 1998 when the EU decided everyone must pay. Free college didn't destroy their educational system. No wonder they voted for Brexit.

In none of those countries did the Bachelor degree become a high school diploma.

[jmowreader]

23. Apples and oranges

Denmark and Norway also have a sense of community the United States doesn't have.

[Farmer-Rick]

26. Well what about England before 1998, if you think the other 2 countries are somehow different?

Then there is Finland, Sweden, Germany, Slovenia (that's why the naked first lady and Trump sex worker was able to attend college with no debt...even though she never finished.) and France who have free or practically free college. None of their educational systems were ruined.

ps://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/080616/6-countries-virtually-free-college-tuition.asp

[Politicub]

31. That's why this is a revolutionary proposal.

And probably will never get close to being implemented in any way due to American greed.

[George II]

49. There are less than 150,000 students in Denmark, about 280,000 in Norway....

There are more than 18 million college students in the US.

[Farmer-Rick]

65. And France, Germany and England before 1998?

And don't forget our own nude first lady and Trump sex worker went to a free college in Slovenia. She never finished. It ain't easy to get a degree even if there is no tuition.

So in effect you are saying Americans aren't even worthy enough to have benefits a Trump sex worker got.

[mopinko]

21. bernie just wants to tax wall street transactions, and he will keep

throwing out stuff to spend the money on, till he hits something that people will bite on.

this is one of those things that seem simple. bernie sure thinks it's simple.
but it isnt.
there is a really strong possibility that is it not done world wide, all that money just leaves the country.
the whole industry is so digitalized now that exchanges dry up and close their doors in a manner of days when something threatens to cost them more money than they could get it otherwise.

the jobs that would kill are some of the best jobs in the cities where these exchanges are.

it isnt a stupid idea, unless you think it easy.

[jmowreader]

30. Very good analysis

Here's what gets weird: If Bernie would come out and say, "I'm going to tax Wall Street transactions, leave all other taxes where they are, and use the money to reduce the federal deficit," a lot of people would be on board with that.

[mopinko]

34. the levels he has proposed are way too high.

the idea of a tiny tax is one thing, but he is looking at numbers i dont them exactly now, but they were clearly set at how much they wanted to bring in, and not on what the market will stand.

my ex worked at one of the big exchanges, and he was pretty much the guy who built the digital system.
so, i have a worms eye view of this idea.
there is strong local support here in chicago for the same tax for local govt. right now the exchanges have a lot of power in nyc and chi, but there are smaller and smaller cities w exchanges these days, and they are really good for the local economies.

but go ahead bernie, kill a couple thousand of the best jobs in the country. it's ok.

[Trenzalore]

48. There aren't enough democratic votes for the proposal

Let alone having the supermajority in the Senate necessary to pass.

Yes, many candidates have taken the pledge not to take money from XYZ. These candidates also tend to live in the most liberal districts in their given states. There are enough democratic Senators and Congressmen and Congresswomen that take enough Wall Street money that this is DOA in the caucus let alone in the overall legislative body.

[customerserviceguy]

56. I'm all in favor of taxing Wall Street transactions

but let's use that money to pay down the national debt, and not for loans that people voluntarily signed up to pay.

[NYC Democrat]

61. Beyond the fact that yeah, it wouldn't raise enough money as has happened in other countries

that tried similar taxes, yeah rich people doing massive high frequency trades just do it elsewhere... there's a lot more to the Stock Market than just the rich and to raise the amount of money Sanders is claiming I can't see many exceptions even in the best case. That means 401ks being taxed, Pensions etc. Which could hurt a lot of people.

[Nanjeanne]

24. Was great seeing Randy Weingarten speaking along with AOC, Jayapal and Omar and Sanders.

Also like this statement from Nancy Altman, President of Social Security Works!

“The vision of Social Security — the comprehensive economic security that President Franklin Roosevelt and his closest advisers recognized that all of us need — includes and rests on a guaranteed quality education. In the 21st-century, with its technological advances, today’s work often requires more than a high school diploma. Free college should be a right for everyone in America, just as free K-12 education is. As part of that comprehensive Social Security, those who find themselves caught in the web of indebtedness for the “crime” of seeking a higher education should have those debts cancelled.

Kudos to Representatives Omar and Jayapal, and to Senator Sanders for their legislation, which will increase the economic security of not just those who directly benefit, but the economic security of all of us.”


https://socialsecurityworks.org/2019/06/24/lawmakers-who-champion-free-college-debt-cancellation-are-carrying-on-fdrs-legacy/

[bluewater]

28. K&R

[Skya Rhen]

32. Just watch all the millenials jump from Warren to Sanders. Smart move, Bernie...

[Freethinker65]

33. This will never happen and Bernie will be rightly ridiculed for it.

Reduce the current loan interest rates.

Let states propose tuition free college for instate students based on their own criteria.

[mopinko]

35. a) this isnt gonna happen. see my relies above, but b)

i dont know why no one is trying student loan forgiveness to income.

i dont want to absorb the debt for some doctor, when the teacher next door is eating cat food.
so many got degree based on their talents and passions w/o regard to the pay. those are the people we should be helping.

we could also make the interest deductible.

[namahage]

63. We do make student loan interest deductible, to a certain extent.

We could conceivably raise the cap (currently, up to $2500 can be deducted).

And actually, someone IS tying loan forgiveness to income:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2019/06/17/elizabeth-warren-student-loan-debt-forgiveness/#7c5e07345e7b

Specifically, Warren's legislative proposal for student loan debt forgiveness would:

Cancel $50,000 in student loan debt for every person with household income under $100,000.
Provide substantial debt cancellation for every person with household income between $100,000 and $250,000.
Not tax as income student loan debt that has been cancelled.
Also make private student loan debt eligible for cancellation.
Streamline the student loan debt forgiveness process using data and income information already available to the federal government.

Importantly, Warren's plan offers no student loan debt cancellation to borrowers with a household income above $250,000, which she says is the Top 5% of earners. There would also be "phase-outs" based on income. The $50,000 cancellation amount would phase out by $1 for every $3 in income above $100,000. According to Warren, for example, "a person with household income of $130,000 gets $40,000 in cancellation, while a person with household income of $160,000 gets $30,000 in cancellation."

[bottomofthehill]

36. I would be happy if student loan interest was 2%

It is insane that my son and daughters government student loan rate is 6+% and my parent plus loan for them is 7+%. The variable rate at my credit union is 3.9%. The Govt rate should be about half that instead of double. My daughter went to a public college and my son is at a private college. We did not think he would do well at a large public university and are paying more for his education in an attempt to help him complete his education. He did start out at a Community College but even that was quite large. Should education be free........ I dont know, but it should not be a revenue generator for the Federal Government. I like the idea of a National University that is free or paid through service.

[Midnightwalk]

38. I view proposals like this differently

I don’t mind what may seem like an outlier proposal starting the conversation on what we need to do to reduce student debt.

Lower cost education would help. Reducing interest rates would help. Allowing bankruptcy or forgiveness would help. These are more likely to pass but only if we get the senate too.

I will be happy if there are counter proposals that get discussed. We don’t need nirvana we need progress.

Bernie pushes the conversation further to the left. The down side is that can scare more centrists. The up side is if other candidates jump on the need for more palatable solutions.

Personally Bernie isn’t my preference I still am figuring out who is but it’s early still.

[SouthernProgressive]

39. I think we should discuss it at our...

"revolutionary" meeting after church this Sunday. The wife and I will be all dressed up.

[Mr.Bill]

41. See you there.

I'll bring the brownies. You might just want to eat a half of one if it's your first time.

[BlueWI]

42. We bailed out banks

and loan them money constantly at extremely low interest rates so they can overcharge students.

There's every reason to address the issue of student debt with a bold solution. Every attempt to address the crisis deserves appreciation, especially among Democrats.

[Skya Rhen]

46. And the government got every single penny, and some, back from said banks...

[BlueWI]

60. Maybe - this is something I would have to see verified.

Glad to do my own research on that.

But it sounds like you are in favor of a principle that strategic action to minimize the impact of debt is good for banks, and it would also be good for students too. No reason to wait till the chronic shortage of nurses, teachers, engineers, and other professions becomes untenable, especially if large segments of eligible students are priced out of college.

Are you in favor of banks charging 8% or more on student loans with no refinance options, using funds acquired at the prime rate?

Good work if you can get it.

[Trenzalore]

47. It is going no where.

Without campaign finance reform I highly doubt you will get the necessary votes in the House let alone the Senate to put the taxes on Wall Street financial transactions to cover it.

Undoing the Trump tax cuts would be a herculean effort by any democratic administration. Legislatively this is literally not possible.

[Uncle Joe]

50. I believe Bernie believes that tearing down all the unjust barriers

preventing the U.S. from a having a strong and vibrant middle class will produce the necessary votes in the House and Senate that will in turn greatly increase the chances of progressive campaign finance reform along with rolling back Trump's tax cuts for the wealthy.

[questionseverything]

52. bernie is a big idea guy and that is a wonderful thing

I wish sometimes he would admit, we won't get there all at once but this is the direction we should head in

I get ticked at the peops that make fun of him by quibbling about the details , ya know?

I will always love Bernie for making "healthcare is a human right" part of the national dialogue

thanks for the thread uncle joe

[Trenzalore]

59. We passed mild healthcare reform and lost

The House for 8 years 2 years afterwards out of pure demagoguery by the other side before it was implemented. If that is what Bernie believes he has more unrealistic faith than most evangelicals I know.

[Vegas Roller]

51. This is a machiavellian political stunt

This bill won't even get out of the committee in the house.

Taxing the stock market sounds like other people's money but nearly every American who has a 401K plan will pay for this through the nose. The most prolific traders are the mutual funds and all their money mostly comes from pension plans.


The pension plan yields will dwindle and this will affect retirements of millions of people.


All to make naïve college kids think debt relief is just around the corner and Senator BS is the savior. They don't get that even BS getting elected won't make this bill become a reality.


However, this makes these naïve kids yell Bernie Bernie to drown out real Democrats with real plans and then get pissed off when Bernie loses. Then they can be easily swayed to vote for Trump or Stein.


The media should call it for what it is -- it is a devious stunt designed to con naïve students out of their votes.

[melman]

53. Third Way checks in...

...and gets ratioed

Link to tweet

https://www.dictionary.com/e/pop-culture/ratio/

[boomer_wv]

64. ?

I think a policy that allowed for a service for education program would be better received. The military will give people money for school, but that's not for everyone for many reasons. We should include many other potential avenues of public service in exchange for loan forgiveness.

[Midwestocrat]

67. Do you think if this doesn't boost his poll numbers...

Mr. Sanders will just promise to make everything, absolutely everything, free?