So, Senator Sanders is dissing Democrats again on MTP?

[MineralMan]

Here are the problems with this:

Who puts on the Democratic National Nominating Convention? The Democratic establishment does.

Who are most of the delegates at that convention? Members of the Democratic establishment. As someone who has worked on campaigns and has been a low-ranking Democratic Party elected person, I've seen this first-hand. I've been a delegate at district conventions, and even the state convention once. At each level, it is the most experienced and accomplished Democrats who are elected as delegates. The national convention is the pinnacle of that process. You do not go there, as a rule, unless you have put in your time and hard work for years as a Democratic Party member of leadership.

Who votes in Democratic primaries? Solid Democrats, overwhelmingly. Turnout for primaries is always lower than for general elections. Only those who are dedicated voters who vote whenever they have an opportunity to vote show up, as a rule. Those voters who always vote are the Democratic base. They are, in many ways, part of the Democratic establishment.

The nominee will be a Democrat! Given the above, it's almost certain that the 2020 nominee will be a solid, long-time Democrat. it will not be someone who attacks the Democratic Establishment. Why would they nominate such a person? In the first place, such a person will not win enough delegates to get the nomination. That's what happened in 2016. Second, the delegates at the convention in the majority are part of the Democratic Establishment. They are, above all, Democrats, or they wouldn't be there.

Bad move, Bernie Sanders. Desperation move. It will not work. Almost all of those running in this crowded primary are dedicated Democrats and are part of the Democratic Establishment you are dissing. You are making a mistake. Those who don't care for the current leader, Joe Biden, have many other candidates for whom they can vote.

Good luck, Senator Sanders. Your strategy, though, is going to fail.

[George II]

1. I'm part of the "Democratic establishment", have been for years.

[MineralMan]

2. Yeah, me, too!

When Democrats are in power, we make progress. When Republicans are, we go backwards. So, I vote for Democrats. Always. For every office. Every election.

[LongtimeAZDem]

9. This should be a poll question

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

16. Bernie, although not a Democrat except when it's to his advantage to label himself as such,

is also a long-time member of the so-called political establishment. He's been a career politician for as long as Biden. If he wants to run for president as a Democrat he needs to behave like one. If he wants to take exception to specific positions held by his opponents, fine; that's what primaries are for. But I really wish he'd ditch his '60s rhetoric, take off his Che t-shirt and stop trying to kneecap the party he supposedly wants to represent.

[Fresh_Start]

50. Don't say Bernie is not part of the establishment

After 30 years, he is establishment.

He's just part of the establishment with no accompishments to speak of.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

58. Bingo.

[EffieBlack]

202. Word

[ehrnst]

265. Indeed. (nt)

[betsuni]

272. True.

[Hortensis]

61. :) No discrepancy, though. After getting confused trying to

figure him out, I finally realized there must be TWO Bernie Sanders.

The lifelong wannabe ruthless socialist revolutionary berning for class war to overthrow the "establishment elites."

And the establishment elite Bernie. Looking at his record, this one seemed to have appeared around the time he caught the golden ring of U.S. house and then senate seats, though may have been stirring to consciousness before. Whatever, Establishment Bernie's been a "Tweedle-Dum" to his Republican colleagues' "Tweedle-Dees" ever since, as he once described it.

The Bernies seem to have reconciled the situation long ago, though their crankiness might suggest not an altogether happy one. I'm pretty sure Che Bernie CAN'T take off that t-shirt, though, and for sure the other has never been willing to give up doing what it takes to get reelected.

[calimary]

72. So am I! Ever since the Student Coalition for Humphrey/Muskie.

High school. And I wasn’t old enough to vote yet. That was before the voting age in California was lowered from 21 to 18.

[PatrickforO]

81. Wow! I haven't heard the name 'Hubert Humphrey' in quite some time.

I remember.

[calimary]

91. Meh, old fart here. I now qualify for the label "Grandma," too.

Just to make it official!

My first protest was even earlier. I think I was nine or ten. Fourth grade. We’d moved to a new state, and as we got settled, Dad wanted to get rid of this big beautiful shade tree in the front yard - because grass wouldn’t grow underneath it. Too shady. So while I was at school he had it cut down. I got very upset when I got home that day. Told my new best friend. She suggested we picket. So we made signs on pieces of cardboard and picketed up and down the sidewalk in front of our house. My dad was pissed. “Do you see what those kids are doing out there??!?!?!” he thundered - to my mom.

He never did bring it up to me, though. Maybe he knew better... (?)

In art class a couple of years later, I painted a picture of our house. I painted the tree back in. Still loved that tree - even to this day. I suppose that makes me a certified “tree-hugger.”

[MyOwnPeace]

186. Ha! Great story!

!Somehow I can see you as being a "Calvin" kind of kid (as in "Calvin and Hobbes&quot !

[MineralMan]

99. Me, too. I started working in campaigns when I was 15 years old.

That was in 1960, when I volunteered because JFK was running. I've been doing it ever since.

[NastyRiffraff]

103. I volunteered for JFK also!

I was 12 (and looked about 9). My best friend and I crashed an event at the Woodley Park Hotel and we joined the campaign then.

According to Bernie, I'm part of the evil establishment.

[MineralMan]

107. Yup. I did a lot of setting up chairs and putting them away

at meetings. Cleaning up trash, too. But, I also got to meet lots of people and begin learning about politics and how it worked. I got to meet some candidates, although not JFK. I did see RFK once during a whistle stop in my home town, though.

[The Mouth]

192. I fetched coffee and made copies when I was 11

in 1972 for McGovern.

[MineralMan]

232. Somebody has to. Thanks for being part of it!

[MaryMagdaline]

105. My first vote! Grade school 1968. Humphrey won the 4th grade

Last edited Mon May 20, 2019, 08:38 AM - Edit history (1)

[zentrum]

77. Have been a Democrat all my life,

....and phone banker and door knocker but saying or feeling I'm part of any Establishment freaks me out. Whether it's in academia or the corporate wolrd or the politcal one. Sounds too much like old money to me.

Give me the new ideas and the fresh energy and the new way of doing and seeing things!

But that's just me.

[LakeArenal]

82. Noshit...

Sanders is also part of the establishment.
For kristsakes, He thinks he doesn’t smell like a duck, look like a duck or act like a duck, but he certainly is a duck.

Edit to add:

As it turns out, he’s even a millionaire duck.

[Nuggets]

100. What is with the ridiculous Democratic

Establishment junk anyway?

I love the things Democrats have been fighting for and goals they have accomplished over the past few decades.

[Blue_true]

196. Bernie used the same term in 2016.

To him, what the Democratic Party has fought for during the past is bad, eventhough we would be a weak country if democrats had not won those battles. This is something that a twentysomething that is going ga-ga over Bernie has no concept of.

[trueblue2007]

108. he is NOT part of the "Democratic Establishment" ... He's not even a DEMOCRAT

Stop it Bernie. Don't bash Democratic candidates.

[Gothmog]

250. I have been very active in the party for a long time

Texas will turn blue through a great deal of hard work by real democrats working hard

[brooklynite]

3. No! No! No! All you have to do is inspire millions of people who haven't voted in the past...

...that's how Sander won last time.

[MineralMan]

5. Oh crap! I forgot about that.

[DemocracyMouse]

22. Being in the so-called "Democratic establishment" sounds weirldy boasty.

It also sounds autocratic.

If you can't conceptualize democracy as a process of debate, formulating meaningful ideas, challenging the status quo (anywhere), then you're not a red-blooded American who believes in the larger system which made Democrats, and any other party, possible: DEMOCRACY.

If this doesn't ring true then I have no hope for any American political party.

Make room for debate please. Don't rest on your laurels (and THAT's a phrase from one of the world's first democracies, Ancient Greece).

[brooklynite]

54. Where have I expressed opposition to debate?

Where have I said that those advocating a shift leftward and appealing to new voters shouldn't have a voice?

Doesn't mean I still won't disagree with the idea and recommend that the Party campaign for voters where the voters actually are.

[DemocracyMouse]

121. Whoops, sorry.... I was responding to Mineralman's original post

[MineralMan]

127. Ah, well, you missed.

Whatever post on which you click the "Reply" button gets the reply.

But, I'll respond, now that I know you were talking to me.

I am part of the Democratic establishment. I have been since I was 15 years old in 1960. That's when I first went to my local Democratic Party organization and asked what I could do to help JFK get elected.

They let me hang around at meetings. I set up chairs, picked up trash, and put chairs away. I also got to talk to lots of people, who were happy to help a high school kid understand the political process and how the Democratic Party does things.

Ever since then, I've been involved in Democratic politics. At the local level. At the district level. At the state level. I've been a delegate to many district conventions. I've helped with many Democratic candidates' campaigns, doing all sorts of things, from licking stamps to writing speeches many years later.

I'm still doing stuff, although not as much as I used to. I'm 73 years old now and, so, I don't do door to door canvassing any longer. That hurts my hips. I'm not my precinct's chair any longer, either, nor am I running to be a delegate to conventions any more. That's for the younger folks.

But, I'm still proudly part of the Democratic establishment. You call it "braggy?" Well, over 50 years of active participation in elections as a Democratic Party volunteer is something I'm actually pretty proud of. I've never had a paid position, although I've been offered such positions. I prefer volunteering, frankly.

I've met dozens and dozens of people who ended up being elected to office. I've helped a few get elected. I know both of my Senators and my House representative. I've talked with all three several times. At least one of them greets me by name on sight.

So, am I "braggy?" Perhaps I am, but I'm active politically, and have been all of my adult life. I wish more people were.

So, you replied to me, and I have answered your misplaced reply. Good luck to you.

[DemocracyMouse]

159. Hey fellow campaigner! Thank you for that wonderful history

Please keep holding up that flame.

But please understand what I'm saying. When one is inside a system it is easy to miss that the majority of people OUTSIDE that system have changed.

If your "establishment" friends start to listen to the outside majority or take note that passionate leaders now are getting more votes (That's how Trump won), they. will. get. more. votes.

[SWBTATTReg]

63. You need to be telling republicans this, not members of DU. NT

[DemocracyMouse]

122. I was responding to Mineralman's original post

He sounded very autocratic

[Control-Z]

148. Autocratic?

Mineralman?

Geez. I wonder what that makes me, and most of the rest of DU.

[DemocracyMouse]

278. We live in a poorly designed Democracy at times where we have

...to absorb critical feedback WITHIN the two party system. Third and fourth parties can't compete in such a political oligopoly. Therefore the Dems, in order to evolve, must take time to listen to outside voices. They have not always been too great at hearing Black, female and LGBTQ voices. They haven't evolved fast enough to contend with global warming.

Don't be so sanctimonious about the "insider" Democratic establishment. Once in office, it has to represent all Americans and take in as much empirical evidence of inhumanity and ecocide as it can muster.

[Hekate]

130. All Hope Abandon, Ye Who Enter Here

[Bleacher Creature]

4. Well, he tends to do that on days that end in "y." NT

[MineralMan]

6. Well, that schtick isn't going to work this time.

There are too many candidates running who will attract Sanders voters. They will spread out their vote among the 20-something candidates. Other Democrats will vote for Joe Biden, because they want to win and oust Trump.

It's a very simple equation, and we're seeing it play out before our eyes.

The Democratic party has a rule for selecting delegates to the convention. Unless a candidate gets at least 15% of the vote in a district, in a primary or caucus, they don't get any delegates. That's a hard rule.

Delegates are chosen, proportionally, for the candidates who get more than 15% of the vote. The rest get bupkus. The more candidates there are the more that will get votes, but less than 15%.

[Bleacher Creature]

12. Yep, Elizabeth Warren has all of his positives and none of his negatives.

I truly don't understand why anyone would support Sanders over her, much less any of our fantastic candidates not named Gabbard, Ryan, or Moulton.

[spooky3]

35. Agree nt

[nolabear]

13. It's interesting how much he's flailing.

Without that worshipful crowd he sounds just repetitive.

[Skya Rhen]

115. The morning after Biden's excellent speech, Bernie comes out to remind people that he is still here.

Don't worry Bernie, we haven't forgotten about you. It's just that the majority of us wants Joe...

[kstewart33]

166. Same ole, same ole.

And if he attacks the party, it's bye, bye Bern. This election is too important for that.

[watoos]

7. I take issue with anyone who feels that super delegates are democratic.

Republicans don't even use super delegates.

I see that the DNC has watered them down a little, they only come into play at the convention on a 2nd ballot.

Hopefully we won't need a 2nd ballot.

[MineralMan]

8. Remember that time when the Super Delegates decided the nominee?

No? I don't either. It has never happened.

[Catch2.2]

60. West Virginia

it happened there

[MineralMan]

66. Super Delegates have no vote until the Convention.

They are not in play in statewide conventions. WV has a small delegation to the national convention. Even if its entire delegation had voted for Bernie Sanders at the 2016 convention, Hillary Clinton would have still been the nominee.

[Catch2.2]

69. So that makes it ok

to go against the will of the people?

[MineralMan]

76. I did not say that. It's a system.

I didn't create it. West Virginia is a state with a minor influence on Democratic politics. A very minor one.

In 2020, WV will have 30 delegates at the convention. 24 of them will be proportionally selected, based on the primary elections. 6 are unpledged Super Delegates, and can align themselves with any candidate.

As you can see, the Super Delegates make up only a small percentage of WVs delegates.

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P20/WV-D

[Catch2.2]

79. Well maybe the system

is broken?

[MineralMan]

90. Do you know who changes that system?

The delegates at the convention. All of that stuff is dealt with there. It's the only annual meeting of Democratic delegates, so they vote on the Democratic Platform and the rules for the next convention while they're there.

Do you want to be part of that? Becoming a delegate typically takes a few years of working up the ladder in your local and state Democratic Party organization. If you're willing to do that, you can be a delegate, too, someday. This years delegates will all be people who have put in their time being Democrats.

Beyond that, I have nothing to add.

[Hekate]

133. Awwww, that sounds too much like hard work...

Imagine the whine

[Blue_true]

201. You touched on the issue.

The superdelegates are people that have put out a lot of shoe leather for the Democratic Party. They know the pulse of their local democrats because they have put in long hours at the local level as they moved up party ranks.

[Hekate]

213. Indeed, but the way some people bellyache about the process you would think it was soooo unfair...

MinMan is very good at explaining the hard work involved from the precinct upwards, because he has been doing this practically his whole life. I find his posts very informative.

[MineralMan]

231. That's because it is hard work.

Before anyone can change things, they have to understand how things work. There's no "We have to do this, but I'm outa here..." shortcut to it.

[Blue_true]

260. People parachuting into the party wants to just take over.

They don't care about the under structure of the party. I was at my DMV today and saw a group collecting voter signatures for two petitions for the 2020 election. One was reasonable, people voting in the state need to be permanent residents of six months or longer. The other was to allow independents to vote in party primaries. I didn't sign either one because I was in a hurry, but if I had stopped, I would not have signed the second one. If people want to participate in a party primary then they should join that party as a nominal member.

[Blue_true]

199. MM, some people prefer to parachute in and take over the party.

Becoming a delegate at even the state level is a reasonably long process where a person has to give time to party affairs. I don't see why people that don't want to do that should tell democrats how to run the party.

[MineralMan]

230. That never works. Too many people have no idea

what goes into party politics. And all that hard work and dedication is what wins elections.

All too often, people dip their toe into Democratic Party organizations and are never seen again. They don't want to actually do the work. Those who are willing to pitch in are the ones who end up being delegates to various conventions and actually accomplish change. It's an old, old story.

[ehrnst]

240. "The system" that all candidates know about before they agree to run as a Dem Candidate?

That system?

[Blue_true]

198. Clinton had the nomination numerically wrapped up.

Maybe some people in the West Virginia delegation wanted to just acknowledge that and move on with other affairs that were more pressing.

[ehrnst]

239. You mean like trying to get Superdelegates to vote to overturn the will of the majority

Last edited Mon May 20, 2019, 12:20 PM - Edit history (2)

by handing the nomination to a candidate who lost by millions of votes?

You mean "going against the will of the people" like that?

[rzemanfl]

187. I have to fold socks. BBL. n/t

[Hekate]

214. So much laundry, so little time

[TexasTowelie]

216. You must share your sorting system with me.

Darn those socks, they keep me busy.

[Blue_true]

197. Really? Can you provide a link?

The last race I saw in WVA was a primary where voters went overwhelmingly for one of the candidates, those voters were not superdelegates.

[progressoid]

207. here...

https://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/politics/wv-delegation-at-dnc-votes-for-clinton-over-sanders-by/article_80b8e3a5-5ce3-5092-95d0-a41cd1875707.html

[ehrnst]

241. That was *after after Sanders endorsed Clinton,* after she had the #of pledged delegates to win

From your link:

Belinda Biafore, the chairwoman of the West Virginia Democratic Party, said a lot of the superdelegates voted for Clinton because of Bernie Sanders’ endorsement of Hillary Clinton.

Sanders’ endorsement of Clinton led to a switch for at least one West Virginia superdelegate — Elaine Harris. Harris was originally backing Sanders because her union, the Communications Workers of America, endorsed him. Once the union switched over to Clinton, it allowed Harris to switch.

And no, mathematically, those particular delegate votes changing to Clinton would not have made a difference in the outcome had they remained as they were before Sanders conceded. Clinton had the won the minimum number of pledged delegates for the nomination prior to the Convention.

This is not fighting about anything concerning that primary - it's reporting what happened, and addressing the erroneous claims of a previous poster, that "superdelegates overturned the will of WV voters." The selection of WV voters who voted for Sanders was "overturned" by the wide majority of voters for his opponent nationwide, which gave her a greater number of pledged delegates.

[progressoid]

242. Blue True asked for a link, I supplied a link.

You wanna squabble over the contents of the link, knock yourself out.

[ehrnst]

243. Squabble? You mean point me pointing the details that

contradicted Catch2.2s claims?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[progressoid]

246. Whatevs.

Take it up with True Blue.

[Blue_true]

259. The link proved the exact opposite of what you claimed.

Your original claim appeared to be that the delegates went against the will of the primary voters, they did not, they only voted for Clinton AFTER Bernie had basically released them to do that. In a lot of cases, delegates all vote for the confirmed nominee to make it unanimous.

[progressoid]

262. I didn't make that claim.

I simply supplied you the link to the event brought up by another poster.

[Blue_true]

264. The link disproves the claim. End of story. nt

[LibFarmer]

252. They don't get that WV votes second to last

and its delegates never make any difference in the outcome.

By the time WV voted, all WV "Democratic" politicians voted for the nominee. Nothing wrong with that.

This is all much ado about nothing and something that should be treated with Preparation H instead of trying to create a gotcha post.

[ehrnst]

244. Nope, didn't happen. See the thread on this.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=126683

[robbedvoter]

65. I remember when GOP wished they had the superdelegates

to stop Trumputin. (for those of us not seeing Putin as a good guy)

[mopinko]

10. he needs to be held to his pledge.

bar him from the debate stage.

me, i'd bar him from the ballot. he can run independent. i dont care.
he'll take as many votes from twitler as from our candidate. i dont think any actual dems are gonna risk a wasted vote this time.

and cut him out of the voter data.

[MineralMan]

26. Well, he can campaign against other candidates, certainly.

However, he seems to be campaigning against the Democratic Party, at least as part of his message. That will not work in this election. There are far too many candidates for those who want a big change to vote for. Sanders isn't the only choice, and many are already shifting their support to others who appear to be more progressive than, say, Biden.

[Nanjeanne]

11. What did he say? I must have missed it. Only heard him mention Dem establishment in

response to question about Ed Rendell dismissing him and Elizabeth Warren being unable to win Pennsylvania.

[pdsimdars]

23. For some reason they are always looking for excuses to diss Bernie. I think they're afraid of him.

[George II]

27. "Dissing" him by using his own words?

[Voltaire2]

132. The op contains zero quotes from Senator Sanders.

It can't even be characterized as out of context as there is nothing quoted.

[lapucelle]

59. Who's "they"?

[Catch2.2]

62. They do love to bash

There's a lot of hate on this board for BS. I don't hear a lot about the issues though. It's always "He's not a true Democrat" or "He's criticizing the Democrats" or something along those lines.

[lapucelle]

71. Who's "they"?

[Catch2.2]

73. a number of people on this board

.

[lapucelle]

80. Ah...how terrible that BS is a victim of the anonymous, apocryphal "they".

[ehrnst]

247. Not seeing any bashing him. Can you point them out?

Of course you can't.

There are those relating where he indeed bashed Democrats.

[comradebillyboy]

98. I am one of the 'they' group. I can't stand the man.

[lapucelle]

114. I wish I could offer you a donut,

but you don't seem hungry.

[comradebillyboy]

155. I just finished baking up some calzones. so I'm good.

[kstewart33]

165. Many of us remember 2016.

I have a hard time supporting someone who refuses to join the party he wants to lead.

A Democrat now to obtain the financial advantages of party membership, but the day after the vote, he leaves the party.

I'd wager millions of Dems feel the same way.

[MyOwnPeace]

188. Here's one of them!

And yes, I DO remember......

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

218. They never miss an opportunity... only shows they fear Bernie!!

Or else they would ignore him!


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!

[Vidal]

229. I don't fear Bernie

I'm sick of him. Everything about him. I don't like him. Most Democrats don't.

[Nanjeanne]

140. Actually the interview with Chuck Todd was suprisingly informative and good. I typically hate Chuck

but this was long enough to get into decent questions. But the part where Bernie mentioned establishment Democrats was simply in response to a quote by Ed Rendell that Sanders or Warren would never be able to win Philadelphia. Rendell said that when Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren speak people in Pennsylvania stick their fingers in their ears. But somehow Bernie is the bad guy. And that was the extent of the discussion about any Democratic establishment - so yeah . . . some people like to play the same card over and over again - makes them feel good. It's kind of like white noise to me now.

[pdsimdars]

152. Yes. When will people learn to be unbiased and just listen to the issues?

Shut yourself into your bubble and you will lose and wonder why.

[Cha]

277. When will BS stop bashing the Dem

party to build himself up?

[BannonsLiver]

173. You mean like the victim card?

Agreed. Some people like to play that card with a great deal of frequency.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

217. It's so obvious they're afraid Bernie will win the Democratic primary... otherwise they'd ignore him

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!

[dalton99a]

14. Old habits die hard.

[aeromanKC]

15. Sanders would get booted from websites with TOS against disparaging fellow Democrats

Frankly, I prefer Biden's unity message myself which by the way would not get booted from any such aforementioned websites.

[MineralMan]

29. I don't know about that, actually.

It's just that I see it as a losing argument in this particular primary field.

[FreepFryer]

89. Considering how badly DU has failed to police itself in that regard, I'd say that's wishful thinking

N/t

[yaesu]

17. concern....

trolling

[MineralMan]

30. But, you see, I'm not concerned at all. Not even a little.

It is Senator Sanders who should be concerned about continuing to lose voters to other progressives who are running. It's a big field, and there are plenty to choose from. Sanders doesn't really stand out as much in 2019 as he did in the last round.

[peggysue2]

18. This should not be a surprise

It's the same old, same old strategy of 2016: Dems and Repugs are basically the same and in addition to 'multi-millionaires (slight revision from millionaire Sanders newly disclosed status) & billionaire boogie men, the Democratic Establishment is folded in as the obstacle to progress.

The problem with all this, of course, is the data: Establishment Democrats, middle-of-the-roaders and left-of-center Dems is where the electorate lives. Call them out as stooges, barriers to progress? You effectively delete the majority of supporters and voters.

The weary words are just that: wearisome, hollow. Because we've seen and heard this picture show before. The enemy is Trumpism and all its ugly ramifications.

Get with the program, Bernie. Or go home.

[rgbecker]

19. You don't have to worry about Sanders. As you say, he is going to fail.

So why all the internet space wasted bashing Bernie? Concentrate on promoting your candidate. When Bernie concedes, I'm going to have to choose among the other 20 odd contenders. Give me someone I can get excited about. Which "Establishment Democrat" supports Sanders agenda? If a 78 year old white guy who supports the status quo is the best the establishment can do, heaven help the USA. REAL CHANGE NEEDED!

[Vidal]

21. Wake Up

Can't you see that the Bernie bashing only occurs AFTER Bernie bashes other Democrats.

In other words, he brings it on himself.

If he quit bashing real Democrats, then Democrats would quit bashing him.

[MineralMan]

34. I'm not worried about Sanders. I'm offering him some advice.

If he wants to survive in this crowded field of excellent candidates, he's going to have to distinguish himself from the rest, while realizing that the bulk of Democratic voters are looking for the best possible opponent for Donald Trump.

It's just reality that he is hearing knocking on the door. He needs to open that door and listen to the people standing there.

[rgbecker]

253. So let me get this straight. You want Sanders to do better?

I think he already has distinguished himself from the rest. But I hope he does do better. With your good advise he'll blend in with all the others on the other side of the door.

Glad to hear you are hoping for a good primary battle through 2019 and the spring of 2020. Thought you'd want a clear path for Biden all the way.

[Metalmom]

47. Exactly

With all the choices we have, the one that leads is Biden? I feel a deja vu coming on.

[Cha]

263. That's up to the voters, isn't it?

We want a winner who is a uniter.. not someone who is divisive and insults our Democratic Party.

[LongtimeAZDem]

48. Why? Because he cannot help our efforts to oust Trump, but he can certainly harm them

[Fresh_Start]

56. wildfires are exciting

disasters are exciting

I don't want an exciting candidate
I want a competent, realistic candidate.

[kstewart33]

168. Real realistic change.

Bernie's all for his free-for-all list, but he's not so interested in realistic plans to get us there.

[Cha]

275. Hello! BS' own words get pushbacks..

We're Democrats.. we don't roll over when BS insults the Democratic party.

Bernie: ‘My Opponents’ Want Black, White, Gay, Latino or Women Candidates ‘Regardless of What They Stand For

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211722251

Link to tweet

[mcar]

20. Has the ink on the pledge even dried yet?

[rebe303]

24. Sanders won't join the party

Vote Blue no matter who; I don't know why he can't see or doesn't care
that more voters would trust him if he would commit to the Democratic Party- " Establishment " or not. This is an emergency.

[SunSeeker]

25. Again with the "Democratic establishment" canard? Why? WHY,? WHY?

[vermont farmguy]

28. When did we take over the Democratic Party?

Progressives have no hidden agenda here. We decided years ago that we needed to remove the leadership of the Democratic Party and put progressives in the leadership. If you are for Bernie, you are for bringing in new progressives like AOC to the Party. This is very exciting and even more exciting will be all those people showing up at rallies voting for delegates that will change the course of the party.
What a great thing that will be. A party that actually works for the people and not the big corporations. That is not divisive but what the majority of Americans want.

[MineralMan]

42. I didn't say they had a hidden agenda.

There are several progressive candidates in this primary.

What are you doing to try to become a delegate from your state? Are you actively working in your local Democratic Party organization to make yourself an attractive delegate?

Are you running within that organization for leadership positions?

If so, I hope you succeed.

[BannonsLiver]

46. Except it's not working and you don't speak for all Americans.

It’s delusional to think Americans are clamoring for Bernard. They’re not. He’s worse off than when he lost 3 years ago. I suspect you will figure that out around early February, early March at the latest.

[George II]

87. Not even all Democrats, or a majority of Democrats.

[lapucelle]

113. Wait...what? What are you talking about?

We decided years ago that we needed to remove the leadership of the Democratic Party and put progressives in the leadership.

[Hortensis]

180. Hostile takeover that never happened, apparently.

Doesn't seem to realize it though.

[lapucelle]

181. And who's the apocryphal "we"? N/T

[Hortensis]

183. :) Beats me. I'm guessing Nancy and Hillary know who

and what happened to them. Black plastic bags in the night...

[JudyM]

128. Yes, we need more focus on individual rights and far fewer legislative handouts to corporations.

Many more are woke now, especially younger voters. Here’s hoping they stay inspired by the vision of social Dems .... cutting Sanders down only hurts the party in the long run.

[Cha]

150. No, you're wrong, vermont farmguy..

You need to check out the polls and this OP..

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=114114

[lapucelle]

153. Are you really the film maker?

What do you think of your candidate's past interactions with AIDS activists?

[GulfCoast66]

204. Except for the majority of Democrats like me.

Who reject the progressive label.

Most democrats, like most Americans want just left of moderate, even keeled politics.

AOC is great for Brooklyn. She doesn’t play in Florida.

[ehrnst]

226. How is that "removing Democratic leadership" going for "you" 'progressives?'

Last edited Tue May 21, 2019, 07:39 AM - Edit history (1)

As of 2018, it wasn't looking very good.

[Cha]

271. Yeah, the BlueWave happened

and we had a Democratic House Victory.. and we now have Nancy Pelosi has Speaker of the House.

That must be so disappointing to those who ".. want to remove Democratic Leadership.."

[moriah]

236. To be honest, this is my issue with "outside criticism".

We should listen to people who are willing to accept the label as both "Democrat" and "Progressive" and criticize from inside the tent.

And yes, we should listen to people whose criticisms come from the place of "Not Republican"-land even when they themselves aren't willing to call themselves "Democrats". Because perhaps if we listen they will be, provided what's being asked isn't outside of our big tent's goals or contrary to another interest within it.

The whole idea of a party that works together to get all individual voices heard means we have to listen to everyone's input.

But when a person isn't willing to accept the label of "Democrat" yet wants to both engage in heavy criticism of the party AND run as its nominee... well, it's harder to listen.

It's harder to not take things as an attack from the outside, from people against the fact Democrats were only beneficiaries of 17% of the "dark money" in the 2016 election, from people who truly think both parties are the same when looking at even just that fact because I'm saying Democrats did have "dark money" spent for them, rather than looking at the amounts.

A "We have" statement vs "they have" statement makes much more impact when trying to change a party from within. I wish Bernie and other people who are wanting to drive that change well, but I wish at least he'd commit to coming inside the tent.

And yes that may seem utterly silly, but it's just how I feel.

[Cha]

270. No.. BS is down in the polls.. look around.

Americans want unity and BS is too insulting to our Democratic Party.. and Yes.. VERY Divisive.

[wsbradshaw]

31. Rank and file

It didn't work out so well last time with the Democratic establishment picking the candidate. In fact this idea of the Democratic elite being some how superior to the rank and file turned a lot of voters off. Its the people who should pick the candidate not the so called elite.

[MineralMan]

37. The candidate they picked got 3 million more votes than Trump.

Who picked Hillary? The nomination system picked her, and that starts with the caucuses and primaries all across the country. The people voted for Hillary. She won the primaries, so she won the nomination.

Democratic Primary voters decide, actually. They choose the nominee. The delegates are selected according to the votes.

It's a very simple system, really. The voters speak.

[Catch2.2]

57. Not quite true

Bernie Sanders won every county in the West Virginia primary, yet the superdelegates threw the vote to Clinton. The voters did not decide.

[GulfCoast66]

208. Care to discuss caucus states? Which thankfully there are few of now.

[LongtimeAZDem]

44. A majority of primary voters, otherwise known as "the people", picked Clinton.

[lapucelle]

85. The voters always choose the Democratic nominee.

In what Democratic primary election have the "elite" rather than the voters ever chosen?

[Blue_true]

206. You won't get an answer for that question at the end.

What people making the democratic establishment claim either fail to realize or simply won't acknowledge is the establishment is rank and file democratic voters, they ALWAYS have picked our nominee.

[George II]

129. If by "Democratic establishment" you mean the majority of voters, then yes....

...."the Democratic establishment" did pick the candidate. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

[Blue_true]

203. Delegates were picked by actual party voters in primaries or caucuses.

That was the "Establishment" then and it is now. Bernie is throwing out a straw-man, setting an image of shadowy figures that manipulate results against people's will, it did not happen in the past and is not happening now.

[ehrnst]

227. What "elites" chose the candidate? Are you talking about 16,914,722 million Democratic voters?

[LibFarmer]

233. 4 million more "people" voted for the winning candidate nt

[aikoaiko]

32. Your concern and best wishes for the Senator are noted.

[MineralMan]

39. What concern? I hope the candidate who gets the most votes

in the primaries is our nominee. That's how it works. And I'll be there supporting whoever that turns out to be.

The one candidate out of 24 who wins the most primaries is who it will be. Simple.

I just think it won't be Bernie Sanders unless he changes his tune.

[Cary]

179. So what if you did express concern?

You made a great point. I'm concerned about alleged Democrats bashing our party. Not only do they hurt Democrats, but they also play into Russian interference.

[ismnotwasm]

33. I actually watched that

While he made a couple of good points, it was kind of a fail for an interview. I didn’t appreciate it either.

[George II]

36. Did it ever dawn on him that perhaps "Establishment Democrats" are what Democrats....

.....(real Democrats) really want? He all but confirmed it last spring and summer when he barnstormed the Midwest during the primaries, campaigning against "Establishment Democrats" and for his non-Establishment Democrats. Virtually all of those he endorsed lost the primary, and many of those he campaigned against went on to win their general elections.

If "Establishment Democrats" are what wins election, I'll choose them over anyone he backs.

[MineralMan]

49. Democratic Primary voters will make what they want known

in every state. That's the process. Regular Democratic primary voters are the true base of the Democratic Party, along with all those hard-working people in local, district, and state Democratic Party organizations.

We'll find out what real Democrats want at the convention next year, and we'll get clues after every primary and caucus.

[George II]

64. The bad news for Sanders is that he did very poorly in primaries in general, closed primaries....

....in particular.

When it comes to going into the voting booth alone, Democratic voters overwhelmingly vote for Democrats who have been so throughout their entire political careers.

[MineralMan]

67. Well, primary voters decide for whom to vote in different ways.

Some vote for the primary candidate they like the best.
Some vote for the one they think has the best chance to win.
Some vote after looking at candidates' records.

Everyone votes for his or her own reasons.

That's the bottom line, really.

[George II]

70. Except that in open primaries some vote for the candidate they'd like to oppose their REAL candidate

Which is why I hate open primaries.

[MineralMan]

74. Yes, some do. I don't think it's a major factor,

though. Republicans generally have some things that need voting on on their own ballot, so they don't cross over so much.

It's a factor, but a minor one, I think.

[LibFarmer]

38. That is all Bernie has left

He can't get traction on the issues and is dropping like a rock in polls.

His last hurrah will be to bash the Democrats and make them lose the GE. He may see that as a victory, as pyrrhic as it may be.

It is childish "If I don't get the cake, you don't get it too" kind of a thing.

[Metalmom]

40. What did he say

This post just seems to be a response to something he said, but nowhere does it give that information so we can decide for ourselves if he indeed "dis" Democrats. How anybody can intelligently respond to this thread that what he did/said is wrong without that information is showing that persons bias imo. But hey, that's just me.

[MineralMan]

52. You can watch the Meet the Press episode.

See what you think.

Or, you can read the transcript here:

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meet-press-may-19-2019-n1007496

[Metalmom]

101. I think

lots of people are making much ado about nothing. Seriously folks, this is what you call dissing Democrats? I saw him say "we" a lot soooo........

[MineralMan]

102. Here's part of what he had to say on MTP:

"Look, you know, let me just say this to Ed, who I've known for many years, and to the entire Democratic establishment. Let me tell this to Ed, that there are millions of people who are sick and tired of that Democratic establishment. "

I gave you the link to the transcript, so you can read the rest yourself.

[Metalmom]

112. He's not wrong

There are millions of people who are sick and tired of the Democratic establishment. They see it as corrupted by moneyed interest.

But here, let me tell you what I tell a lot of people when they express that idea:

Yes, politicians take money from big money donors, yes the Democratic establishment is corrupted by moneyed interests. But it's our own fault. If we want that to change we have to stop being a booty call.

We the voters (in general, not speaking for most here as I know most here are very engaged) ignore these people until election time rolls around. We don't give time or money to them. We're just there every couple of years for them to get their booty call (vote for me speeches). The moneyed interests are there for them 24/7. The candidate needs money to run a campaign....moneyed interests, the candidate needs time....moneyed interests, the candidate needs a booty call vote.....the voters.

If common voters become the go to for money & time the candidate will be free to ignore the moneyed interests.

So......regular people need to stop being a booty call and become the #1 bitch.

[MineralMan]

116. Interesting.

"Booty call." "Bitch." That's how you see "regular people?"

Sorry, I'm not discussing this any further with you.

That's some misogynistic bullshit, right there.

[Metalmom]

143. oh please

No wonder the average person sees the establishment the way they do.

Being a woman, I know a booty call when I hear it, and yes....bitch, a word women have taken back from men and owned it. Bring the power to ourselves instead of it being taken from us. You know just like how some in the AA community use a racial slur as an empowering term?

[MineralMan]

144. No, thanks.

[Metalmom]

149. no problem

Ima stay right here in the real world. Peace be with you and yours.

[Cha]

273. Yeah, how's that working

out for you?

[Hortensis]

182. Same here. DU's starting to sound like 2015's primary

season all over again, and it'll continue until we have a nominee.

Big no thanks, all right. Last time I finally gave up and put dozens of hostiles on hide, and it elevated discourse enormously. I'll erase these people a lot sooner this time.

[ehrnst]

224. So you would use racial slurs among AA to "empower them"

as you are claiming to use "bitch" to empower women?

[Cha]

267. "Oh please" yourself.. the "average person" knows

what the Democratic Party has done for America for the last 60 years.

They don't need BS to try and rewrite history.

He's losing with good reason.

[revmclaren]

125. Wow....

That's some bashing of Democrats there by a new member. And a nasty group attack.

Oh Mirt...



ONLY!!! 2019 and beyond.

[Metalmom]

145. really?

you think telling the average voter to start paying attention and giving time & money to candidates is bashing Democrats?

Sounds to me like you're just itching to get someone banned that you think doesn't agree with you. Shame on you.

[Cha]

157. No, "shame on you".

[Metalmom]

160. pfft

[Cha]

162. Yeah... shame on you and BS bashing

for the Democratic Party.. how's that working out for him?

Link to tweet

[Metalmom]

163. again Pfft

Elizabeth Warren is at 13% negative rating, Kamala Harris is at 14% negative rating

So......you're fishing with the wrong bait.

We as a party need to knock off the pearl clutching on the fainting couch and get in the real world, otherwise we're stuck with another 4 years of waking up every morning wondering if today is the day Trump finishes destroying our country.

[Cha]

171. It's the Voters who took the poll who say BS

is "# one Nope Factor"... from the link..

Sanders, the independent Democratic Socialist, is the candidate with the highest NOPE factor. A full 28% of Democrats surveyed say they won’t vote for Bernie

[ehrnst]

235. Interesting when people talk about a post they haven't read.

Isn't it?

[Cha]

261. Was that the problem?

[ehrnst]

222. Pot, meet kettle.

[Cha]

274. "pfft"? lol

[lapucelle]

167. Have I ever told you about my friend who does the faux-umbrage-shaming routine AND

invokes the "using vile terms is empowering" canard?

[Cha]

172. Why no you haven't, lapucelle..

Thank You for the Kinks!

[sheshe2]

176. Bazinga.

[Tipperary]

190. Thank you.

Wow.

[Cha]

219. I know..

[sheshe2]

175. Oooh.

Metalmom

145. really?

you think telling the average voter to start paying attention and giving time & money to candidates is bashing Democrats?

Sounds to me like you're just itching to get someone banned that you think doesn't agree with you. Shame on you.

You did far more than that.

[Cha]

221. Mahalo, she..

[Cha]

154. Yes, BS is WRONG.. he's bashing to build

himself up. It's not working.

We Won the Midterms in 2018.. Flipping 45 Red Seats to BlueWave..

They're were NOT.. " are millions of people who are sick and tired of that Democratic establishment. "

We wouldn't have the Democratic Victory in the House without them.

[Tipperary]

189. #1 bitch?

Are you serious here?

[Cha]

266. BS is dead wrong.. and so are you.

[Autumn]

126. Strange how you are fine with what Ed Redell had to say about Elizabeth Warren.

I get that you have no problem with anything said about Bernie but you also seem to have no problem with Ed mocking and trashing Liz.

[George II]

131. Is Ed Rendell running for the nomination? Besides, there's a huge difference between.....

....a lifetime Democrat criticizing his FELLOW Democrats and a person who drops into the Democratic Party every four years for a few months doing so.

I don't think I've ever seen Ed Rendell refer to members of his and my party as "Establishment Democrats".

[Autumn]

134. Not running for a nomination gives the former head of the Democratic Party in PA every right to

mock and trash one of our women candidates and no complaints about him.

When Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren open their mouths, many, many Democrats in Pennsylvania stick their fingers in their ears."

Got it George. One and done.

[George II]

139. How is that "trashing" them, he was making an observation about Democrats in his state....

.... which quite possibly might be true. And he was speaking about both a man AND a woman, why are you zeroing in on only the woman to disingenuously make it into a sexist comment?

[LiberalLovinLug]

142. And.......?

So what? He's not incorrect.

Its what we are going to do about it, don't you think?

And what would work better you think?...more of the same, or a change?


You might have the opinion that clinging to the status quo is the best way forward, but please don't define other candidates that want more of a change, as "dissing Democrats again". But who am I kidding. Its seems a sport in here.

[BannonsLiver]

178. What happened to Tulsi?

24 hours ago you’re all in and now undecided?

[LiberalLovinLug]

194. Sorry, still undecided.

I never did choose anyone yet. A long way to go yet. You are seeing things. Mostly devils in the shadows. Evil usurpers pretending to be Democrats amIright?

[BannonsLiver]

237. Nah, just wondering why you abandoned Tuls.

[R B Garr]

185. Whoa! That is a nasty thing to say. If he's so sick and tired,

why come back for more? This makes me so angry. I’m waiting to watch the political show recordings to watch with my husband, but thanks for this warning. He will not like this one bit.

Excellent OP, agree with everything you said.

[Autumn]

111. I'll underline the bad parts where he dissed and trashed Democrats.

often there are reasons excepts are not included. If it's any day that ends in a y and if Bernie mentions the words Democrat or Democratic he's trashing and dissing Democrats.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, I think another way of looking at it is you have to win, right? And you have to -- I think one of the cases you need to make to the Democrats is when -- you know, the former head of the Democratic Party in Pennsylvania, and I gather that Joe Biden has a lot of support in Pennsylvania. But here's what he said about you. He said this. "I'm supremely confident Bernie Sanders could not win Pennsylvania. When Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren open their mouths, many, many Democrats in Pennsylvania stick their fingers in their ears." Tell us how you win Pennsylvania.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Look, you know, let me just say this to Ed, who I've known for many years, and to the entire Democratic establishment. Let me tell this to Ed, that there are millions of people who are sick and tired of that Democratic establishment. What Ed should know is that a recent poll that came out had me, if I'm not mistaken, eight point ahead of Trump in Pennsylvania. We've had polls which have me way ahead of him in Michigan and Wisconsin and, in fact, all over this country. Now, the reason that we can beat, that my campaign can beat Donald Trump is we're going to create the kind of excitement that we need to bring out the large voter turnout. We're going to bring out young people, who not only are interested and are going to fight for real climate change, they want to raise that minimum wage to $15 an hour, a fight that I have been helping to lead. They want healthcare for all through a Medicare-for-all, single-payer program. They understand that it is absurd that young people should be leaving college 50,000, 60,000, 100,000 dollars in debt. They want public colleges and universities tuition free. They want criminal justice reform. They want immigration reform. And the truth is that our campaign, I think, can generate that excitement. Our generation can talk to some, some of the Trump supporters, who now know that they were lied to, when Trump said he was going to provide healthcare to everybody and then tried to throw 32 million people off their healthcare. I think we are the campaign that can beat Donald Trump.

CHUCK TODD:

Senator, I would argue, you made a very similar case against Hillary Clinton four years ago. And you came up short. Why do you think, this time --

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Hey, Chuck, Chuck, you know I --

CHUCK TODD:

-- especially when it seems like you have an exhaustive -- I'm just saying, you have, you have a part of the Democratic Party --

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Chuck, let me just say --

CHUCK TODD:

-- that seems to be gravitating toward Biden. Go ahead.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

You know, we came up short. Yeah, we took on the entire Democratic establishment. We took on the Democratic National Committee. We took on every Democratic governor. We took on every Democratic mayor. And we ended up winning 22 states and 13 million votes and, in fact, bringing forth an agenda that transformed the Democratic Party. Four years ago, people were not talking about the issues they're talking about now. So I understand that our campaign is unique in the sense that we're going to try to win the Democratic primary. We're going to try to beat the -- Trump. But you know what else we're going to try to do? We're going to try to transform the United States of America, deal with this massive level of income and wealth inequality, deal with Wall Street, deal with the greed of the drug companies and the insurance companies and the fossil fuel industry. So our campaign has a different goal. It's to transform this country. And we're taking on the entire establishment, when we do that, including Ed Rendell.

[lapucelle]

169. Same old, same old from a politician who's been part of the establishment for 30+ years.

[Autumn]

234. Don't be so hard on Biden and Bernie lapucelle, they aren't the only lifers.

Career politicians are a small part of the problem with our system.

[mcar]

248. They aren't the only lifers

But only one of those lifers seems to think he's not part of the "establishment" he very definitely is part of.

[lapucelle]

269. The inference is invalid. "Who's been part of" is the present perfect progressive construction,

and Joe Biden has been out of office for more than two years. Joe is established, but not establishment.

Establishment politicians include those who have failed to deliver on vague promises or actually work to pass any meaningful legislation after decades of warming the back benches.They make a lot of noise and get nothing done. Many careerists are in it for the paycheck, the perks, and the spotlight. Often they have no regard for the negative consequences of their purely personal ambition.

Establishment politicians are all about "me": they shove partners out of the frame, push past colleagues in their self-important rush to go nowhere fast, stab at the air with spindly fingers or wildly wave their hands about, much too close to other people's faces because in their eyes, those people don't really matter.

For establishment politicians, it is not about "We the People". It's about Them.



Making valid inferences takes careful, close reading and rudimentary skills in higher order thinking.

Thanks for playing.

Have another.

[Cha]

268. Who likes to divide.. bash the Dem

Party to build himself up.. only it's not working.. Thank Goodness!

Link to tweet

So many donuts to give.. so little time! Thank You!

[kimbutgar]

41. He is not a Democrat he is an Independent trying to get Democratic voters to support him

This Democratic voter will never vote for him again. He should not be allowed to participate in the debates when he is criticizing the Democratic Party. We have enough repukes and fat Donnie doing that and don’t need Bernie to pile on.

[sheshe2]

209. +++++++++++++++++++++

[NJCher]

43. healthy minds

take criticism as part of the process of making things better.

[mcar]

53. Indeed

What a shame that some Sanders supporters don't feel that way.

[George II]

78. Criticism is one thing, attaching phony tags like "Establishment Democrats" is another altogether.

[lapucelle]

170. And Chuck won't fluff him again this time around.

I increasingly get the feeling that the hipster contingent of the MSM are wishing that he would just go away.

[NJCher]

200. he could have said

"Corporate Democrats," referring to candidates who take money from big corporations, you know, like banks and credits cards companies and their ilk. "Establishment" is pretty mild when you consider the range of sell-out behaviors there is to choose from in American politics.

[LibFarmer]

205. That is also asinine

since Sanders gets money from JD, BNC and OR -- all of whom get corporate money.

So is it ok if the corporate money is laundered through such intermediaries?

[sheshe2]

210. Oh.

Ouch!

[NJCher]

215. acronym explanation, please

[LibFarmer]

228. I am surprised that you don't know

But I'll be helpful for you

JD = Justice Democrats
BNC = Brand New Congress
OR = Our Revolution

[NJCher]

255. just because you say it doesn't make it so

Can you prove this? Where are your links to the lists of corporate donors to these organizations?

I'm not about to believe someone on a message board who may have an agenda.

[LibFarmer]

258. They keep their large donors secret

Go to open secrets website

[Cha]

156. This is where BS' bashing has got him..

Link to tweet

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=114114

[BannonsLiver]

174. Great point!

When do you think Sanders supporters will get the memo on that and start living the mantra?

[Fresh_Start]

45. Bernie knows he's not going to win the nomination

so he is once again showing he's not a democrat and not an ally.
He's out for himself.

[LongtimeAZDem]

51. We can make use of that, however. Someone calls Biden a scaliest? Say, "no, that's Bernie"

It will probably work for a lot of topics.

[MineralMan]

55. I expect that he does, actually.

I also expect to see Elizabeth Warren pass him in the polls before very long. She didn't run in 2016, but she's running now. Some people who supported Senator Sanders are now supporting her - or one of the many other candidates.

[vermont farmguy]

75. Us not me

Fresh Start: time to remember that many of us see ourselves as a movement of change. We are in this campaign for US and not for Bernie. He is only a vehicle for progressives to organize in order to transform the Democratic Party in to a truly progressive party, to win the nomination, and to win the election and then to help be part of the millions in our movement that will help transform this nation towards economic and environmental justice. We hope you'll join us. We know we have our work cut out for us but we will persist. See you in Milwaukee. Tonight we march with Bernie in Alabama for Women's rights.

[lapucelle]

92. Any progressive who wants a party, should start one

rather than attempt to appropriate the Democratic party and transform it into something else.

We're a big tent party.

Of course, starting a party is hard work....

[BannonsLiver]

177. And what if Bernie is not the nominee?

Forgive me, but you don’t seem super motivated to support than candidate unless it’s Bernie. Will you go third party, stay home?

[GulfCoast66]

211. Sorry, but I'm a democrat. Not a progressive. Whatever the hell that is.

If you want to change an organization then the first thing you should do is actually join that organization.

[sheshe2]

212. Do you have a link to the women's march with BS tonight?

Tonight we march with Bernie in Alabama for Women's rights.

[MBS]

83. I agree.

Makes me worry again about his going for a 3rd-party run. He is one angry (and humorless) dude.

[Catch2.2]

68. How does this thread help?

Threads like these will not help us defeat trump in 2020. I get it, you don't like BS. How about posting a thread about the positives of the candidate you support.

[NurseJackie]

86. So tell me again how it is that smearing the party will "help us defeat Trump in 2020".

How about posting a thread about the positives of the candidate you support.

How about if all candidates seeking the nomination of the Democratic party REFRAIN FROM TRASHING AND SMEARING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY?! That would be a nice start.

Threads like these will not help us defeat trump in 2020. I get it, you don't like BS.

It's not about "not liking" BS. There's something bigger at play here.

Here's the thing, attacks and smears and denigrating the Democratic party generates apathy... apathy toward our party, apathy toward our Democratic candidates. That apathy discourages voter turnout. Low voter turnout gives Republicans a chance to steal the elections.

So tell me again how it is that smearing the party will "help us defeat Trump in 2020". I'd really like to know.

[George II]

88. Sanders going on national television and insulting the majority of Democrats helps?

[MineralMan]

94. I have posted several threads about Joe Biden and why he would

be the best choice as our candidate in 2020. You must have missed those. I've been around here for a long time, and I post a lot of threads. I don't dislike Bernie Sanders. I think he is an important voice in the Senate. I didn't thing he could get elected as President in 2016, and I don't think he can get elected in 2020, either. I also didn't think he could win the nomination in 2016 and I don't think he can in 2020, either.

I have posted why I think that. I'm not bashing Bernie Sanders. I'm explaining why I think he won't be the nominee. He's still an important voice in the Senate, though, and probably will be as long as he wants to be. I don't live in Vermont, though, so I can't vote for him.

I don't live in West Virginia, either, so I can't vote for Joe Manchin. I would, though, despite his being way more conservative than I prefer. But WV is WV. I'd rather have a Democrat than a Republican in the Senate from anywhere, so I'm OK with Manchin.

[LiberalLovinLug]

95. +1000

[MineralMan]

97. This thread will have zero effect on defeating Trump.

What will defeat Trump is choosing a nominee who can beat him, and that's what this thread is about. But, this thread won't have any affect on that, either. This is just DU. A few thousand people might see this thread, and they vote in many different states. Many don't agree with me. Some do.

We're just discussing things here, see...

[mtnsnake]

223. + infinity

[ehrnst]

245. So you can gripe about "superdelegates" in WV in 2016 , but everyone else must be "positive?"

Or Trump wins in 2020?

[FarPoint]

84. He's only on the talk shows because they want conflict....

Sanders is not a Democrat....he is sinking like a rock....as gravity commands.

[comradebillyboy]

93. It's what I've come to expect from the Independent senator from Vermont.

He's only pretending to be a Democrat until the convention. And he's not doing a very good job pretending.

[marehare]

96. Bernie not a Democrat

I've only posted a few times and all of my posts were taken down. I have no idea why, except I was posting why I'll never vote for Bernie.

More people seem to be feeling the same way.

Now Bernie is continuing to support Democrats and other Indies who are against women
controlling their own bodies.

I will only vote for a candidate who supports woman's rights, LGBTQ rights, immigration rights, gun control, Russian Sanctions (which Bernie was only candidate besides Comrade Randy Paul) who put Russian interests before American.

Bernie has some god awful NO votes which are still terrible.

No on Amber Alert, the only senator to vote No on protecting kids who are missing
NO on Immigration, he said he was supporting White American workers, Racist as hell
No on Gun control 5 times Most all hunters and gun owners support gun control and not allowing
people who are mentally ill or domestic abusers. Bernie wanted No control
No on Raped Woman's health care bill, which would have allowed Raped women to find out if their rapist has AIDS or is HIV positive. Bernie put rapists rights before women who've been raped, a vicious assault.

His NO on Russian Sanctions after they attacked our elections is one of the worst. Why did he put Russian interests before our precious elections is just cray.

There may be lots of Bernie supporters that don't agree, but I will never support Bernie. His record stinks and shows he lacks the most important skill a president must have. The ability to
compromise. He can't and he doesn't respect woman's rights.

[cwydro]

225. You say all your posts were "taken down?"

It doesn’t show such in your profile.

[Texin]

104. It'll be interesting to see if he'll declare himself a third party candidate.

He didn't do it last time, and I would believe (or I sincerely hope) he wouldn't do it this time when everything tRump touches is incinerated. If he does, it's end of democracy in this country because this and the rigging by the Russians will ensure a tRump "victory".

[MineralMan]

109. I certainly hope not.

[dlk]

106. How Rational is it for Someone to Expect Support From an Organization That Person Refuses to Join?

Seriously...

[MineralMan]

110. Well, if Senator Sanders gets the nomination, he'll get

that support, and plenty of it. I don't think that will happen though this time, either.

[LiberalLovinLug]

117. At least provide some context, some link. Or is this just a generic Bernie Bash?

Seems to be allowed on here for some reason.

But overlooking that, because I do not doubt that he has been "caught" once again being critical of the party establishment.

But I ask...Why is that such a horrible thing? Parties that never change, never self-reflect, never listen to criticism especially from a new generation, and call any such criticism some kind of sabotage of the party, are foolish and deluded if they think that is a healthy way to run a party.

You must surely see the difference in someone who is a Senator that works with Democrats, co-sponsors bills with them, including some of the other candidates, who shares 95% of their platforms, being critical of the way entrenched Democrats have divided loyalties to the status quo and corporate interests....and some Trumpaholic being critical.

And if anyone deserves to be excused for that it would be Sanders based on his treatment from the DNC last time round. But that is not the reason to listen to Sanders on this.

You may not like it, but there are plenty of Democrats, and more importantly, Independents, and No-Trumpers, and young people, who could push us over the top, who agree with Sanders on this.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/28/bernie-sanders-v-the-democratic-establishment-what-the-battle-is-really-about


But social psychology research tells us that people who have different ideas about politics than us are not generally bad people – they’re mostly good people with different convictions. In the eyes of the Democratic establishment, courting big dollars is the only way to stay politically competitive – and besides, corporations and wealthy individuals are major stakeholders in society, so why shouldn’t they get a major say over policy?

That’s a coherent worldview, and it’s one that the majority of Democratic and Republican powerbrokers hold. But increasingly, American voters are turning against what they see as a corrupting influence of money in our politics. Sanders believes that he can build a sort of politics where small donors and ordinary people drive political discussion rather than the large donors Cap and Biden are courting.

Establishment voices will probably mock Sanders’ view as naive or overly idealistic. But if you think about what Sanders is arguing, perhaps he is the realist.

[MineralMan]

118. The Meet the Press transcript is readily available.

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meet-press-may-19-2019-n1007496

That's why I mentioned MTP in the first place. Google knows where it is. Now, so do you.

[Voltaire2]

135. At least quote the part you found offensive.

If you can actually find it, and if it isn't, in context, not what you are making it out to be.

[MineralMan]

136. I did, in a post in this thread.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=125968

[LiberalLovinLug]

137. thank you

But it would also be nice if you quoted the exact phrase. Make us read through it all. But that's ok, most of the interview Sanders stated what his platform was. He raises all the issues Democrats care about. Fighting climate change, minimum wage to $15, Medicare-for-all, colleges and universities tuition free, criminal justice reform, immigration reform.

Is this what you had a problem with?:

CHUCK TODD:

Well, let me start with something the vice president, former vice president, said yesterday. And it was a fascinating way -- he was talking about his climate change proposal. And he said, 'If you want to know what the first and most-important plank in my climate proposal is it was," quote, "beat Trump." You have said, if all the Democrats do is focus on Trump, you lose. Essentially, Biden is saying, no, no, no, no, no. It is all about Trump. Your reaction.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, I think Democrats have got to do a couple of things. Number one, it goes without saying that we have got to beat, defeat Donald Trump, who, in my view, is the most-dangerous president in the modern history of this country. He's a pathological liar. He's a sexist and a racist, et cetera, et cetera. But that is not enough. If we're talking, for example, about climate change, what the scientists tell us is that we have 12 years before irreparable damage is done to this planet. Beating Trump is not good enough. You've got to beat the fossil fuel industry. You have to take on all of those forces of the status quo, who do not want to move this country to energy efficiency and sustainable energies. Chuck, what the scientists tell us is that the future of the planet is at stake. And we have a moral responsibility to make sure that our kids live, and our grandchildren live, in a healthy and habitable planet. That means massive investments in wind, solar, and so forth and so on. So taking on Trump, of course you've got to do that. But you need a real plan to transform our energy system.



Do you deny that there is an element in the Democratic party that does not want to disturb that status quo? Can you not admit there are some who would rather not change now they have their favourite large donors in place for years already, and that his idea of people funded campaigns for instance, or even any kind of electoral campaign reform might jeopardize those relationships?

You may not agree with his opinion that changes are needed to the entire system that both Republicans and Democrats feed off of. Especially long time "established" Washington Democrats (and Republicans). But why such a visceral reaction to that opinion. Not agreeing with him is one thing, but going out of you way to falsely portray an interview as being all about bashing the Democratic party, when in fact 95% is not about criticizing the party but about what he thinks is needed for the country. And GASP, even where he thinks Democrats could do a better job!

One thing we should agree on about Sanders is that he definitely does not put (the Democratic) party before country. And I understand why some may find that disturbing.

[MineralMan]

138. Here you go:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=125968

[blue-wave]

119. This is the reason

I have never and will never vote for him. Bernie is not a Democrat. He only attempts to use the label when it might be advantageous to his ambitions.

[MineralMan]

123. Well, he's running as a Democrat, like he did in 2016.

I don't know about his "ambitions." I think he probably really thinks he knows what needs to be done. I also think he's more than a little naive about how things actually get done.

He seems dedicated to his principles, so I'm not really thinking it's ambition, so much. I just think he's not as good at attracting support as he thinks he is.

He has no option in our system other than to run as a Democrat, really. But, he's not doing a very good job of courting Democratic voters, I'm afraid. He could run as a third-party candidate, but that trick never works. So, he runs as a Democrat, and serves as an independent Senator from one of our least populous states. That gives him a platform for his ideas, but he is really forced to vote with the Democratic caucus or have no impact at all.

I do like Bernie Sanders, but I don't think he can ever become President. U.S. politics just doesn't work that way.

[Hekate]

120. Irritating, isn't he? Won't support the party. Criticizes the party. Somehow fails to give the GOP--

...the same degree of negative attention, ever.

I would not mind his critiques of how the Democratic Party runs itself if he were a lifelong member, but this is silly. Imagine working in a unionized shop and there is one guy who refuses to join the union, refuses to pay the dues, has an awful lot to say about how the union should be run -- and this is the guy who wants to be elected shop steward.

[MineralMan]

124. Your union analogy is a good one.

Thanks!

[Cha]

161. BS Bashes the Dem Party to Build

himself up.. How's that working out for him?

Link to tweet

[Cha]

141. Because, of course, he did.. he never stops..

[stopbush]

146. I've been a Dem since 1972 when I voted for the very first time.

I support Ds. I do not support usurpers or DITNOs (Democrat In Temporary Name Only).

I will vote for the D nominee in 2020, no matter who it is, even if it’s Sanders. But until then, I will work for thru-n-thru Ds, not part-time, opportunistic Ds.

[MineralMan]

147. +100

[Laelth]

151. Agreed, but this is still pot-stirring. ;) n/t

-Laelth

[Cha]

158. BS needs to be exposed for what

he's doing.

I don't have a tv, and I would have no way of knowing what his latest slam against the Democratic Party is.

[MineralMan]

184. Primaries are like bechamel sauce.

Gentle stirring is essential.

[CentralMass]

164. I just watched replay of this morning MTP and I have to say that I support Senator Sanders more then

Last edited Sun May 19, 2019, 06:48 PM - Edit history (1)

ever. .I will continue to support Senator Sanders and plan to vote for him in the primary.

[George Eliot]

191. What are you talking about? Is there a link?

I hope we all agree best person should win regardless of label. That seems like nit-picking to me. I just want the very best president we can get. For the country. If elected, he will be known as a Democratic president, won't he? Why not tell me why you're supporting Biden. That would be an informative comment.

[George Eliot]

193. Sorry. I missed "MTP" - I've quit watching. Todd is Republican lite IMO.

I remember how much you supported Clinton. I agree, Biden is Clinton. So I understand your support.

[Blue_true]

195. Bernie seems to be setting up his supporters to be a problem.

Maybe he does not mean to, but that seems to be what he is doing.

The "Democratic Establishment" is a collection of lifelong or longtime democrats who believe in the party's core values and always have. They are the people that have brought about ALL the progress that the country has seen since 1932. They have fought and sometimes lost, sometimes won, against attempts be republicans to pull us back to a less equal past.

[Cha]

220. Oh, he's had lots of practice..

he knows exactly what he's doing.

He's slamming those who had a big part in winning a Democratic Victory in the 2018 Midterms. Apparently thinking it will build himself up.

[Gothmog]

249. I really doubt that sanders will be the nominee of the party

There are far too many real Democrats who will not like these attacks on the party

[MineralMan]

251. Well, I don't think he will, either, but for a different reason:

He has competition in quantity for voters from several other competitors who are attractive to his potential followers.

The vote is being divided up between Biden and the rest of the field.

Remember the 15% rule for Democratic primary candidates in every state. If you don't get 15% of the vote in a district, you get no delegates from that district.

That is going to be a major factor in play in the 2020 primaries.

[Hekate]

256. Thanks. This is the first time I have rejoiced at having 2 dozen candidates in the race...

Of course, last week a BS supporter came up with a wowser of a that many are "favorite son" candidates pushed into the race by the evil DNC specifically to draw support away from BS.

[MineralMan]

257. Now, that's funny, right there, I don't care who you are...

[Irishxs]

276. Bernie doesn't play well with others. You want dnc support, be a democrat.