NYC mayor wants hospitals to lock up baby formula to encourage breast-feeding

[boston bean]

The nanny state is going after moms.

Mayor Bloomberg is pushing hospitals to hide their baby formula behind locked doors so more new mothers will breast-feed.

Starting Sept. 3, the city will keep tabs on the number of bottles that participating hospitals stock and use — the most restrictive pro-breast-milk program in the nation.

Under the city Health Department’s voluntary Latch On NYC initiative, 27 of the city’s 40 hospitals have also agreed to give up swag bags sporting formula-company logos, toss out formula-branded tchotchkes like lanyards and mugs, and document a medical reason for every bottle that a newborn receives.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/29/nyc-mayor-wants-hospitals-to-lock-up-baby-formula-to-encourage-breast-feeding/#ixzz223E0eslE

Oh FFS, this is a personal decision. These types of policies make me want to

[Tx4obama]

1. I think the FOX article is not accurrate.

I saw a segment regarding the infant formula issue on the news a few weeks ago.

What Bloomberg wants is for the hospital to NOT push the formula on the new mothers like they do now.

The companies hand out the formula and advertizing to new mothers - including the ones breast feeding.

I think the FOX folks are spinning the issue into something it's not.

Don't forget that FOX has a habit of lying

[seabeyond]

21. if the mother has to work at getting her option, a new mother, then it is too far.

just having a baby is not the time and place to strong arm a new mother. and this is what it will amount to. this is already a part of this world as it is. and this reinforces the culture, already, that have people aggressively going after a new moms decision.

[pnwmom]

114. She doesn't. This restricts the formula marketers, not the mothers.

All the mother has to do is say she doesn't want to nurse and the doctor will have a perfectly valid medical reason for prescribing formula: the baby needs nutrition.

[seabeyond]

117. since this post, i have found other info that goes beyond this simple reasoning.

we all have our stand. and it appears we are pretty firm on our reasoning. so, meh, a battle i wont have to be involved in.

[mzteris]

2. wellll actually . . .

I think more should be done to educate and encourage women to breastfeed.

Too many women are given all the wrong information, messages, images and make decisions without the facts.

The truth is that the baby formula people GIVE AWAY these products to hospitals to PUSH ON THE NEW MOTHERS.

Hey it's hard to breastfeed. Hard to get started. It hurts like freaking HELL. The baby may have trouble. The new Mom feels bad and inadequate so she does the easy thing and gives the stupid bottle.

I'm not sure I see what is wrong with the policy. Stop giving the shit and diaper bags and tags and all the crap with the corporate logo of the current formula corporation du jour.

What's wrong with documenting WHY a baby is getting a bottle instead of being breastfed? It's documentation to use for analyzing how many problems, what kind of problems, what reasons are people not breastfeeding. Can you not? Do you just not want to? Why don't you want to? (I would like to know these things...)

It MAY be a "personal decision" but that doesn't mean helping to make sure that women are getting the right information and not being pushed into something that ultimately - usually - is a less desirable option for the baby.

I'm not a breastfeed until their driving sort, but I honestly believe it is healther for the mom and the baby in most circumstances.

[HockeyMom]

3. How about because she doesn't want to?

Not enough reason? I say that having breastfed for almost 2 years. I threw the free forumla in the garbage, and I did WORK for that company too.

Choice, choice, choice. You cannot FORCE women to breastfeed. I have known many a woman who went back to work almost immediately after giving birth. All of them choose to bottle feed. You cannot nurse around the clockwith a newborn when you are working 8/10 hours a day.

[boston bean]

6. Women who want to breastfeed will breastfeed.

It is totally obnoxious to me that people feel "uneducated" women are choosing something unsafe for their baby, because they don't know better.

Truly, this type of control make me sick.

[vanlassie]

13. Really? Spend a day in a WIC clinic and you will think differently.

If your mother, and maybe her mother fell for formula marketing lies, how likely are YOU to understand the consequences, as well as have confidence that you can do it? This is what happens when we allow industry to run unchecked. How in the sam hell did they ever get to where they could walk freely onto any maternity floor in America and call the shots? They have free reign. It is a public health disgrace.

[boston bean]

18. You speak to me like I could not speak with any authority regarding this.

I am a mother, and I went to Lamaze classes about twenty years ago, and in those classes they were pushing breastfeeding. And that was at the hospital where I delivered.

I just don't understand how you can say with such certainty that women who choose not to breastfeed are doing it out of some sort of brainwashing by a corporation.

Over 70% of women breastfeed, and it falls below 40% after 6 months because women go back to work.

I think the stats are NOT backing up your assertion that baby formula corporations are making women choose formula over breastfeeding.

[vanlassie]

37. In MY county, 70 percent formula feed.

Our hospital has not trained their staff how to help mothers and these mothers were formula fed themselves. I am very familiar with the data, and it is dismal.

[seabeyond]

40. and if that is the case, address the issue. that is not the case in THIS

country. i have never heard or seen any hospital or medical person promote bottle feeding over breast feeding. it is already well established breast feeding has advantage to the point of guilting the mom. this is one more step to harassment.

[vanlassie]

45. County. A Central California county.

http://www.calwic.org/news-a-publications/wic-blog/142-study-shows-breastfeeding-gap-still-exists-in-hospitals-serving-poor-ethnic-women

[seabeyond]

53. not enough coffee yet. i read country. obviously. sorry. i corrected.

thanks for the article. implement a breast feeding friendly environment. encourage. the hospital i was in, that took the poor, had a well run program and lactating nurse to help new moms. always available, even once leaving a hospital. thumbs up. all for it.

surprised as hell that calif is behind the eight ball on this one.

[pnwmom]

120. It isn't harassment because this isn't directed at the mother, breastfeeding or not.

No one is asking the mother to provide a medical reason for why she isn't breastfeeding. The medical reason is for why the baby needs formula, which is a completely different thing. In the case of a baby with a mother who chooses not to nurse, the medical need for the baby is obvious: s/he needs the nutrition.

[seabeyond]

123. ok. i get that. that is a good way to explain. still there is the purposeful making accessibility

difficult and not allowing nurse aide to just grab a bottle and the mini lecture that is all directed at the mom and by extension, the baby itself.

[pnwmom]

132. This law doesn't require any mini-lecture, and nurses who might want to engage in that

would have been doing that before this law.

I really think this law is simply aimed at the formula marketers not using the hospital to push their sub-optimal product on women who are in the earliest stages of trying to figure out breastfeeding. Formula supplements, as you know, can interfere with establishing breastfeeding even in women who are strongly motivated. So the aim of the law is to prevent hospitals from giving out the free samples unless the doctor says that the baby needs the formula supplementation. Often, what is needed is more rest and more fluids for the mother who wants to nurse -- not supplementation, which can quickly reduce a mother's supply.

[boston bean]

140. You have no idea why some mothers want to bottle feed.

How about you do your thing and others do theirs.

I have no problem with not giving free formula or goodie bags.

However, to try and regulate women regarding this issue by making them get a doctors order is creepy. And quite the intrusion.

[pnwmom]

143. Why do you refuse to acknowledge the truth? That this law doesn't

require the mother to have any reason not to nurse. That the mother's doctor needs to provide no medical reason for her decision. That that's her free choice and this law changes nothing about that.

All it requires -- which is a totally different thing -- is that the baby's doctor specify why the baby needs formula: and the reason would be, for nutrition.

[boston bean]

145. No, it requires the doctor to give a reason. Which if he does not provide there will be no formula.

Why you think this makes my argument weak is beyond me.

There is no need for a doctor to have to have a medical reason for allowing her to feed it to her baby.

Why the hell else would a baby need formula? Oh, is it because the baby doesn't need formula because the mother should be breast feeding?

This is frickin ridiculous. Totally and absolutely an infringement upon choice. I am not missing a thing.

[pnwmom]

147. You still don't understand. A baby to whom breast milk is unavailable or insufficient

FOR WHATEVER REASON automatically has a medical reason for needing formula: to provide nutrition.

A baby's doctor doesn't "allow" a mother to feed her baby formula instead of breast milk. That's her choice. But then it's the doctor's job to make sure that, if the baby isn't nursed, the baby is given adequate nutrition -- hence, the medical need for formula.

So this "requirement" puts no burden on the mother at all. It just puts a crimp in the formula companies marketing efforts, which is to associate -- in the consumer's mind -- the hospital with a particular brand of formula.

[boston bean]

152. Yes, it does, when you add in people who think they know better than you.

And if you don't think this does and or can add extra pressure on women to breast feed, I don't know what to tell you.

[pnwmom]

184. I think that is the crux of the issue for you: "when you add in people who think they know

better than you."

Your defensiveness about bottle-feeding appears to be affecting your reasoning on this specific issue, which is NOT directed against mothers, bottle-feeding or breastfeeding, but against formula companies using hospitals to push their products.

[vanlassie]

151. No one has to get the doctor s permission

The NURSE has to justify why she provided formula. This will keep her from giving it when it is not needed or in spite of the mothers intentions. THIS HAPPENS and nurses are disincentive -ized to know how to correctly assist. No mother has to get ANY sort of permission. Order. Anything. She asks for formula. The nurse gets it and documents "mother requested.". Period.

And if she gives it without proper justification now there is an audit trail and eventually she can be fired as she should be.

[boston bean]

164. again, please tell me where you are getting this info, exactly, cause this is what I have

been pointed to:

Enforce the New York State hospital regulation to not supplement breastfeeding infants with formula unless medically indicated and documented on the infant’s medical chart.

Medically indicated. Does a nurse make medically indicated decisions? I thought that was left up to doctors. No nurse can prescribe medication, no nurse can make a diagnosis, no nurse can determine when something is medically indicated. I assume, a nurse will be able to provide formula if a doctor has given an order for it.

Show me something that will lead me to change my opinion.

[pnwmom]

186. What you are pointing to doesn't support your conclusion.

All NYC has done is decide to actually enforce a New York State regulation that has long been in place, and only concerns breastfeeding infants.

And this doesn't put any pressure on the mother. It means nurses can't offer formula to breastfeeding babies unless the doctor says it's medically necessary. (Water can still be given if the baby needs more fluid.) Offering formula to the babies of mothers who are trying to breastfeed interferes with the development of the milk supply. Formula companies like this, of course, and so they offer free formula, because they WANT mothers to switch to formula.

If a mother changes her mind and decides to stop nursing, then the baby is no longer a breastfeeding baby and no longer subject to this requirement.

[boston bean]

189. It may not be breastfeeding, but it isn't going to see a bottle until the doctor changes the order.

[pnwmom]

190. Then the nurse will get the doctor to immediately change the order. Big deal. No nurse

or doctor is going to let a baby go without formula, if the mother isn't breastfeeding. That would be malpractice.

[boston bean]

192. So you finally agree, there is another hurdle to a woman bottle feeding her baby.

She must get an additional order from the doctor, therefore, permission to bottle feed her new born.

This is my objection, and it is not just some small matter.

You could have a doctor who wants the woman to keep trying, pressuring, due to his/her own beliefs. Giving them some sort of additional power that was not needed prior.

If all it took was a malpractice suit, why didn't all those breastfeeding moms whose babies were given a bottle sue for malpractice?

There is no place for this. It is the mothers choice, there should be no additional hurdles.

[pnwmom]

196. No hurdle at all to the mother. All she has to do is tell the nurse she's decided to formula feed.

Upon reconsideration, it's clear to me that a doctor wouldn't even have to write a new order, because the original one only applied to a breastfed infant. If the mother decided the baby was to be fed formula, then the state regulation requiring a doctor's medical order for breastfed infants would no longer apply.

[vanlassie]

217. Correct. This is about stopping unethical plying of mothers of breastfeeding babies

INCLUDING ONES JUST GETTING STARTED AND NEEDING SUPPORT, NOT FORMULA...with formula that they do not want and do not need, but which, because they are tired, in pain, and feeling a lot of stress, they may fall for the bullshit reasons their undereducated nurses use for getting them to offer it just so they can move along to another room rather than doing their job. The documentation is to 1. keep the nurses honest and 2. keep a record of how each hospital is doing their "JOB."

[seabeyond]

24. go after the companies. leave the mothers ALONE. i really have issue with this

how likely are YOU to understand the consequences,

there has always been this holier than thou battle between the breast and bottle feeder.

it is bullshit.

[vanlassie]

43. Right. That is what is being done.

We are finally going after the companies. No one is saying anything about choice. Formula industry influence has to be removed from the maternity ward.
And, guess what? The formula industry fuels the mommy wars, too.

[seabeyond]

48. this is not what this legislation is about. it is going after choice. medical reason. make it harder

for a woman that just had a baby. it is fuckin absolutely going after choice. in NY they are absolutely going after choice and made it plain and in the face. and because it is on the PC left wish list, thumbs up.

[vanlassie]

50. Do they search her bags when she checks in???

The family will be responsible for feeding the child for 18 years. They can feed formula and no one will stop them. Pray tell how this is about choice. But I think you might just want to disrupt?

[seabeyond]

54. i pointed out how it is harassment. you ignored my issues. and no... i am not about "disrupting".

i am pissed. and i am tired of the fuckin tired battle that the medical field and breastfeeding moms creating to guilt other moms choice.

fucking.... pissed

[pnwmom]

124. No, they're NOT asking the mother for a medical reason not to breastfeed.

They're just asking the doctor why the baby needs formula. For some babies, the answer will be because breast milk isn't available at all. (When a mother chooses not to breastfeed.) For others, it will be because the baby hasn't been gaining enough weight on breast milk alone. Etc.

[boston bean]

138. Hello, you keep saying this, but I suspect you haven't read what I have written or you are

confused.

I was saying it tongue in cheek. Of course the mother doesn't give medical reasons, doctors do!

So therefore, it is not really her choice any longer is it. It's the doctors determination.

[pnwmom]

144. Please show me where it says that the mother or her doctor must provide a medical reason

for not breastfeeding. I'm waiting with baited breath.

[boston bean]

166. I already have a bunch of times, but let me provide to you the link that was provided to me

That was suppose to make me feel all better about this:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/ms/latchonnyc.shtml

Enforce the New York State hospital regulation to not supplement breastfeeding infants with formula unless medically indicated and documented on the infant’s medical chart

[MadrasT]

173. "Medically indicated"

That is the root of my objection.

They could have gone with "unless medically indicated or the mother chooses formula" but they restricted it to "medically indicated".

People here have said that the mother choosing formula means formula is "medically indicated" for the baby so it's all OK-fine, no probs.

Doesn't work for me.

So the doctor has to write something along the lines of "medically indicated for infant survival", with the unstated portion of that message being "because the mother refuses to breast feed her baby".

No, there's NO possibility for intimidation or strong-arming or guilt tripping there. None at all.

So fuck choice. The state knows what's best for you and we'll get you to "choose" it one way or another.

Seems to me what is best for the baby involves a lot more that what is scientifically the most sound form of nutrition. Seems to me having a happy mother is pretty fucking important too.

[vanlassie]

218. You are missing an important distinction. Read it again.

They may not supplement BREASTFEEDING babies.

Formula feeders can do as they please and the nurses can stuff them to the gills if they want.

They may not supplement BREASTFEEDING babies.

They may not supplement BREASTFEEDING babies.

They may not supplement BREASTFEEDING babies.

Breastfeeding babies are not to receive formula unless medically necessary. Like in the nursery in the middle of the night when mom is sleeping. Like when the baby is crying and the nurse has NO CLUE how to help with breastfeeding.

Formula feeders can do as they please. Breastfeeding - must document the reason you gave formula.

[pnwmom]

182. That is ALREADY a New York State regulation, it's nothing new

and the purpose is to help mothers who WANT to breastfeed, not force mothers who don't want to, to nurse.

When a new mother is trying to learn to breastfeed, supplementing with formula can keep her milk supply from growing. It can also cause something called "nipple confusion" in a baby; because the milk flows more freely from the bottle, some babies then reject the breast in favor of the bottle.

In the past, nurses in hospitals sometimes offered bottles because it made their life easier, because those babies tended to sleep more and gain weight faster. Many mothers, when offered a bottle by an authority figure, would take them, not understanding that this might interfere with the breastfeeding they were trying to learn. So this New York State regulation was long ago put into place to support women who wanted to breastfeed. A nurse will no longer be able to give formula to a breastfeeding baby unless a doctor says the baby needs it.

[boston bean]

185. "Anurse will no longer be able to give formula to a breastfeeding baby unless a doctor says the baby

needs it."

Exactly. Again, address the point of women who change their minds. They have to wait for a doctor to say it's ok.

WHY?????

[pnwmom]

187. If a woman changes her mind and decides not to nurse her baby,

then her baby is no longer a breastfeeding baby and not subject to this regulation. No one has to wait for any doctor to say that's okay.

[boston bean]

188. Seems to me as though a woman would have to wait until her doctors

orders were changed, no?

Up until that point, the baby was breastfeeding.

[pnwmom]

202. Wrong. The order wouldn't apply to a mother who had decided to stop nursing.

Because at that point her baby wouldn't be breastfed any longer, or subject to that regulation.

[boston bean]

208. Orders just don't stop until a doctor stops them and give the direction or other orders.

I'm not going to go round and round with you on this.

[pnwmom]

215. They do if the order only applies to a breastfed baby and the baby is no longer breastfeeding.n/t

[vanlassie]

219. No they do not. The nurse must document that the mother requested formula. Period. Over and out.

[seabeyond]

200. " not force mothers who don't want to". then what would be the mini lecture with EVERY bottle given

if it is not to guilt a mother that has made a decision.

[pnwmom]

204. There is no "mini-lecture" as part of this law. n/t

[vanlassie]

220. Were you not able to see the bias and inflammatory language in that article?

To fuel the mommy wars? Really??

[pnwmom]

191. No one is bothering mothers. This is about keeping formula companies

from pushing their product through nurses in hospitals, unless the mother chooses not to breastfeed or there is another medical reason for formula.

[boston bean]

194. Most women are breastfeeding, it's over 70% at the hospital.

Me thinks you give the baby formula companies way to much power, they do not have.

[pnwmom]

195. They used to have the power to use the hospitals in their marketing schemes

and they'd like to get it back. Faux news, apparently, wants to help them.

[boston bean]

197. Faux news made this happen?

I think fundie lactivists did.

[pnwmom]

198. Faux news is working hard to alarm people like you. n/t

[seabeyond]

203. i gotta tell you, there is a point where words have been spoken out loud, that are being ignored

as you suggest "people like you" are being unreasonably alarmed.

[pnwmom]

206. I have no idea what you're saying here. Sorry. n/t

[boston bean]

211. I'm alarmed that people think this is a good idea.

I'm alarmed at some things I hear from CNN, MSNBC, NYT, WAPO, etc.

You?

[vanlassie]

221. Formula reps are allowed free and unfetterd access on maternity wards. They come in and stock the

cupboards with their products. They "teach" educational sessions to staff about BREASTFEEDING.
They fund the building of new hospitals. They gave a million bucks to the AAP for their new building in Washington DC. They are everywhere and they are unethical and dishonest. They have no business in partnership with a medical institution.

[seabeyond]

201. doi have to go back and get the quotes i have provided a number of times from medical people saying

making it less accessible, not handy to the aide to provide bottle, make a more busy nurse have to go out of way to get bottle and lecture with every bottle. how is that not going after a mom using a bottle?

[HockeyMom]

141. I was the only person in my family,including

my own Mom, who breastfed. My in-laws were very much against it. My choice, despite the negativity. I would venture to guess that a mother who really wants to BOTTLE FEED would have the same determination.

[seabeyond]

23. me, too. i couldnt agree more. and everyone hears how much i am on the kids side. i am appalled

by this.

creating another war between the mamas, with generally the male doctor making the demands.

[pnwmom]

116. What type of control? The mothers are still free not to nurse.

This only affects the formula marketers.

[pnwmom]

115. No one will force her to. This isn't aimed at the mothers, who are free not to nurse.

And then doctors will have a valid reason for prescribing formula: the baby needs the nutrition.

This is aimed at the formula marketers, and the hospitals that have been allowing themselves to act as the distributor of formula no one asked for.

[mzteris]

205. We're not talking about

forcing them to or not to - just eliminating the no-hold-barred commercial attempt to brainwash them into formula.

BTW- a lot of women pump when going back to work.

[seabeyond]

22. as long as that documentation consists of... because i want to bottle feed. and it go no farther

than that.

but, that is not what will happen. you and i know that it will be used to aggressively harass a new mom.

[mzteris]

209. But what if they "want to" but can't?

Wouldn't it be a good to have some statistics on that? And try to figure out what, if any, may be the reason why woman can't?

I'm not saying force women to breastfeed, I'm just saying that allowing the manufacturer's reps to run amok in the maternity ward just isn't a very good idea.

[seabeyond]

212. i have yet to see the formula companies running amok in the hospitals. i do not like anything

about breastfeed first, .... and assigning formula as if it is a medicine because the mother is "depriving" the baby of nutrition. i do not like nurses saying it is good to not have bottles handy and the busier rn has to go out of the way to provide food for a hungry newborn. i do not like the "little lectures" with each bottle. it is all offensive. it is all about guilting.

as i have said, having two babies, the nurses, doctors were adamant in their praise of breastfeeding. they had a program with lactating instructors to help new moms. the service was free and available in hospital and outside.

that covers it for me

if a mom is struggling and wants to, really wants to, provide her help.

[redqueen]

4. For some reason I am suspicious that Faux News may be spinning this issue.

I'm surprised that they'd want a medical reason for every bottle.

I wish the hospital I gave birth in had at least asked me. They gave my newborn formula without asking. I had to wake up and call the nursery to remind them that I am breastfeeding before they'd bring her back to me. It was awful.

[boston bean]

5. I saw two sources, NY Daily News and Faux.

Both had the same exact article.

I don't know, but locking up baby formula in a drug closet like it's morphine and having to have a medical reason to dispense it is just a bridge to freaking far for me.

[redqueen]

7. Yeah, no medical reason should be necessary.

I agree with locking it up though, as lazy/thoughtless nurses seem content to grab it rather than read orders and bother waking mom if they're too busy/lazy/whatever.

[boston bean]

8. How big of a problem is this? Are "lazy" nurses going against their patients wishes

constantly and bottlefeeding the babies against the parents wishes?

[redqueen]

9. I wasn't the only one complaining about it in more than one parenting forum I used to post in.

It seemed to be fairly routine, yes.

Also please note that I also posited "busy" as a possible cause. However that's not justification for not doing your job right.

[boston bean]

10. Well, how about some education for the nurses on respecting parents wishes.

That seems to be a much better solution.

One that works for both, women who want to breastfeed and those who DON'T.

[redqueen]

11. I still think there's some spin going on here.

Beginning to breastfeed from the start is also important for planning a baby’s diet for the first year of life. If the baby is not given anything but breast milk, especially in the first month after the baby is born, almost every mother will make enough milk for her baby. Using baby formula during this time can decrease the production of milk, and consequently make the mother reliant on formula.

The objective isn't to undermine the decisions of women who choose to use formula for whatever reason, it's to avoid negatively affecting the milk supply of women who choose to breastfeed.

Lisa Paladino of Staten Island University Hospital crystallized the “nudge” comparison when she said: “The key to getting more moms to breast-feed is making the formula less accessible…This way, the RN has to sign out the formula like any other medication. The nurse’s aide can’t just go grab another bottle.”

“Under Latch On NYC, new mothers who want formula won’t be denied it, but hospitals will keep infant formula in out-of-the-way secure storerooms or in locked boxes like those used to dispense and track medications.”

[boston bean]

12. The pressure to force women to breast feed is unconscionable in my humble opinion.

It is a choice for mothers to make and the way this is framed by these groups is just abhorrent to me.

It is a personal choice, and they are making women who don't choose their way out to be uneducated, harmful, bad mothers. And that is NOT the case.

It's not just this article, it's the way these groups go about forcing women to make a choice, not for themselves, but for what others want.

I don't like it, not one bit.

[vanlassie]

14. Exacty what is the FORCE you speak of?

What exactly does that look like? Like the "pressure" not to smoke while pregnant??

[boston bean]

16. These tactics, SUCK!

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13326810/

[redqueen]

28. I'm still not seeing what tactics you mean.

All i see is citations of how much fewer health risks breastfed babies have.

[seabeyond]

34. It makes me feel terrible, and I wish I could do it.

But for Amanda Pymm, who like many mothers tried to breastfeed but couldn't, the campaign is upsetting.
“It makes me feel terrible, and I wish I could do it. I wish there wasn’t so much pressure to do it,” she says.

“We’re not trying to create guilt at all,” says Dr. Suzanne Haynes, chief scientific adviser at the Office on Women’s Health. “What we’re trying to do is reach the first-time moms that are out there who are making the decision whether to breastfeed or not.”

like hell it is not a campaign to create guilt. and how easy is that guilt with a new mom.

fuck.... really, this shit totally make me want to

[redqueen]

36. So ... they're not supposed to tell anyone how much better it is? nt

[seabeyond]

42. did anyone say DO NOT educate? anywhere. really? of course not. between the gyno

the hospital before delivery and after delivery, and pediatrician, new moms are barraged being told it is the be all, end all, in being a good mom.

[redqueen]

49. That's all I read at the link.

Which is why I've been asking "what pressure?"

So far all I know of as regards to pressure is there's a stupid ad with with a mom riding a bucking bronco.

[seabeyond]

58. the pressure is clear. think of your vulnerability with a new born. especially the first time.

medical reason.

does the mom get to say. i want to bottle feed, i do not want to breast feed, and they let it go? that is it? she made her decision? no, they insist on a medical reason. that alone puts it in a place of confrontation with a NEW AND VULNERABLE MOTHER. it is used to guilt.

lock up the formula to make access harder and more time consuming. what does that tell you? a mother that has just had a baby. crying. hungry. and the nurse wanting her to breast feed. cause of her beliefs. and she makes it damn ugly for the mother waiting for the bottle. and she has LEGISLATION PERMISSION to slow her ass down before delivering that battle to encourage the mother to choose breastfeeding.

it is bullshit.

[boston bean]

39. Really, RQ?

Public service announcement showing pregnant women riding a bucking bronco and comparing those risks to a mother making a choise to bottle feed?

You really can't see how those tactics are shaming and guilting women into breastfeeding, and making them out to be bad mothers because they chose to bottle feed?

That is the tactics these groups use. We probably won't agree on this. I don't take shaming and guilting women into an action that works for them, lightly, and it goes against what I stand for. And that is what they do. Yes it is.

What the hell business is it of theirs.

In fact, most women do breastfeed. So, this is truly about controlling others. I'll be against it until the cows come home.

[redqueen]

46. I read the link but somehow missed the bucking bronco ad.

That's just stupid. And yes, out of line.

Was that at the msnbc link? I want to read more about it.

[vanlassie]

222. Actually guilt is used constantly in advertising,

but I suspect you know that the formula industry, with the help of Tommy Thompson, then Sect of Health and Human Services under Bush the first, put the kaibosh on those ads.

You know quite a lot about this subject, don't you, BostonBean?

[missingthebigdog]

15. Help me see the force here.

As I posted elsewhere, this policy just changes the default assumption from bottle- feeding to breastfeeding. Women should be allowed to choose, but the choice should be to opt out of breastfeeding, if they desire to bottle feed.

Absolutely no harm is done to mom or baby if the hospital assumes that the baby will be breastfed. Unfortunately, the opposite is not true. Babies who are initially bottle fed are sometimes harder to get to latch on (less effort to suck a bottle than a breast) and early nursing is necessary for mom to develop and maintain a milk supply.

It is always strange to me when people feel that they are being forced or manipulated into breastfeeding. It is the way things are designed. No one is indignant about being forced to deliver vaginally, arguing they have the right to choose a surgical delivery. . . .

[boston bean]

17. making it a medical necessity for mothers to be able to get formula for their babies

is forceful. It then become a decision of some other, not the mothers themselves.

What's so difficult to understand about that?

[MadrasT]

19. "making it a medical necessity"

That's it right there, that's the "force".

It needs to be a CHOICE, period.

And I have just about had it with men legislating, controlling, and directing the CHOICES women can make or not make.

[seabeyond]

38. I have just about had it with men legislating, controlling, and directing the CHOICES women

exactly. and this issue the PC left embraces, so they support, fuck the woman.

[missingthebigdog]

55. The nurses have to document a medical necessity

A medical necessity is "patient requires nutrition."
Having to write something in the baby's chart to document what she or he was fed, and why, does not force the mother to do anything.

[redqueen]

57. The language in that one bullet point is not clear to most people...

and it's being spun to blue hell.

[seabeyond]

61. it sets everything up for harassment of a new mom. nt

[seabeyond]

60. bottle feeding has nothing to do with "medical necessity". that is bullshit. and pretending this

is not a way to harass a new mom is disgusting.

[missingthebigdog]

93. I am not "pretending that this is not a a way to harass a new mom."

And I take offense at your characterization of my position as disgusting.

This is obviously a hot-button issue for you, but honestly, I think you are misreading what the law will require, and misinterpreting the intention of the law.

If there are nurses who will use this to harass a new mom, they are already doing that anyway. They don't need a law to make moms feel guilty.

[pnwmom]

126. Thank you! Finally, common sense! n/t

[seabeyond]

35. i have never, in all the years, seen or heard, the bottle was a default. hospitals are so big on

breast feeding. this is well discussed prior to the baby arriving. i think it is a manufactured bullshit excuse to make it harder on the mom, and guilt the mom.

[vanlassie]

59. Hospitals are NOT big on breastfeedi ng, except as lip service. That's why WOMEN are taking a stand

http://www.calwic.org/news-a-publications/wic-blog/142-study-shows-breastfeeding-gap-still-exists-in-hospitals-serving-poor-ethnic-women

[seabeyond]

62. again, i read that. and again, i have to wonder why calif is so far behind texas. nt

[vanlassie]

65. Are they?

[seabeyond]

67. as i said, in our hospitals, even the ones that take in the new moms that cannot afford, there is an

office set up for in and out patients to get help on breastfeeding. they are VERY encouraging.

if you are saying your hospitals lack this, in 2012, i am surprised as hell and YES, that means they are behind the texas hospitals, which i find embarrassing and unconscionable.

[vanlassie]

73. Texas WIC and Texas breastfeeding

Advocates have been excellent for years but I would have to look at their stats. I will do that after this DDS appt I just arrived for!

[seabeyond]

77. the hospitals in our area has done all they can to encourage breastfeeding. the instruction is

there and the help is there for both the in patient and the out patient. they have done what they can to encourage. and every nurse i expereinced where huge fans of breastfeeding. as well as the doctors i ran into.

whatever the stats.

it is the moms choice.

the info is there.

[vanlassie]

121. Here is the data on Texas

"Greater than 75% initiate Bfing in the early postpartum period. However by the second day of life up to 59% of Texas infants Re receiving formula in addition to or instead of breast milk. "

So Texas has lower initiating rates and lower exclusive rates than CA and that's affected by innappropriate marketing and inadequate support by medical providers.

[boston bean]

178. It could never be the fact that it was the womans choice, now could it?

What makes you so sure?

[vanlassie]

216. What I am sure of is that initiation of breastfeeding relates to intention, and discharge 48 hours

later with this big of a percentage gap indicates crappy support in the hospital. This is not about giving lip service. This is about honest to god hands on help so the mother does not use formula on day two in a panic because on day two babies are notoriously fussy, and they need to be on their mom's chest undisturbed, and mom needs to know this is normal, and that babies need very few calories in the first three days, and that constant visitors doesn't help, etc. Instead, they get a nurse offering a damn bottle of whichever formula the detail rep is offering a prize for the most bottle caps this month.

And often telling the mother "well, you have flat nipples" or "he's big so you won't be able to make enough." or "it won't hurt him!" or "don't listen to those breastfeeding zealots."

This has been deeply studied. How is that you know what you know, btw?

[seabeyond]

207. my point being, the services are offered. the push for breastfeeding is there. and IF a mother

chooses to use bottle than breast, that is the choice a woman makes.

when you were saying calif had issue, while i am well aware the programs we have in texas, it made no sense. of course calif would have an higher rate. it is more health conscious and conscientious. but, the programs are in placed in the hospitals here.

[missingthebigdog]

64. To make what harder?? And guilt how?

The fact that hospitals "are so big on breastfeeding" illustrates my point. Bottles are default behavior, and hospitals educate, encourage, and cajole moms into trying to breastfeed. As a society, we no longer assume that babies will be fed as they were intended to be.

The widespread practice and acceptance of bottle-feeding has made it more difficult for women who want to nurse their babies. Employers balk at providing time and/or space for pumping, and people are offended when women feed their babies in public.

This policy isn't forcing moms to do anything. It isn't requiring that they try to breastfeed if they don't want to. It is removing some of the influence huge corporations have on a sometimes vulnerable population.

[seabeyond]

70. that has nothing to do with the legislation. want a campaign to highlight health of breastfeeding?

i am right there with you, with my voice.

[boston bean]

74. Excuse me the good intentioned well meaning mom who decides after the fact

that breastfeeding is not for her, will need a doctors permission for medical necessity.

This is a disgusting assault on choice.

[missingthebigdog]

91. You are apparently reading something I am not.

I don't see a requirement that a doctor give permission for bottle feeding. I see a requirement that hospital staff document the reason for providing formula. Not the MOTHER. Not the DOCTOR. Nutrition is a medical necessity. The nurse will simply document, in the baby's chart, what formula was given, and how much.

[seabeyond]

95. please explain how this is not manipulating a new mom with a hungry baby and just down right ugly

Lisa Paladino of Staten Island University Hospital crystallized the “nudge” comparison when she said: “The key to getting more moms to breast-feed is making the formula less accessible…This way, the RN has to sign out the formula like any other medication. The nurse’s aide can’t just go grab another bottle.”

“Under Latch On NYC, new mothers who want formula won’t be denied it, but hospitals will keep infant formula in out-of-the-way secure storerooms or in locked boxes like those used to dispense and track medications.”

creating a situation that makes it hard for a new mom to get food to their baby. a hospital, nurse, consciously making a baby wait to eat. tell me how that is not harassment. cause i do not see it. at all.

hot button? being cruel to a new born, and a new mother. damn straight it is a fuckin hot button. i wont deny that at all.

[missingthebigdog]

105. Really?? Cruel?

I'll tell you what's cruel. It's cruel to just hand a bottle to a new mom who is having trouble breastfeeding. It's the easiest thing to do, and requires the least amount of effort from the hospital staff, but it denies the mother the opportunity to work through whatever issue is discouraging her from breastfeeding.

Don't misinterpret what I am saying- I am talking about moms who have expressed a preference to breastfeed, then changed their minds. Don't you think some level of intervention is appropriate in a situation like that? Sometimes it takes awhile for the baby to get the hang of things. Do you think a mom should carry around the guilt of not being able to breastfeed because nobody could be bothered to help her work through it?

Again, I think you are misinterpreting the purpose of this law, and the requirements it imposes. But suppose I am wrong, and you are right about the evil intentions of the nurses, hospitals, and Mayor Bloomberg. Isn't the solution to just pack formula in your hospital bag and take it in with you? If you are sincerely in fear that nurses at the hospital will allow your baby to starve, that seems to be the simplest solution.

[seabeyond]

110. how readily you dismiss an hungry baby. cruel? you ask. put that one to the side and go on with

your lecture. cruel? making a new mom wait, holding a crying, hungry baby, because of a zealots belief. pffft....

now, listen to cruel.

damn straight i will be all for the woman that WANTS to breast feed and needs help and encouragement. and you will find that in EVERY ONE of my posts.

and damn right i will call out the manipulation and cruelty using this for the breastfeeding brigade going after women that do not make the same choice.

that is consistency.

adn YES. it is cruel.... fuckin ugly, pathetic and disgusting to play on the mothers guilt and deprive a baby of food to make a fuckin statement.

[missingthebigdog]

112. I'm done.

I am happy to have a debate with a reasonable person, but clearly that isn't going to happen here. You assert that you are supportive of women who choose to breastfeed, then call us zealots and "the breastfeeding brigade." What-fucking-ever.

Based upon my experience as a mother, and as a former L&D nurse, I choose to believe that there are very few people in the nursing profession who would deprive a baby of nutrition to make a point (or a "fucking statement&quot . Clearly your experience is different. I apologize on behalf of whoever inflicted whatever trauma you endured.

[seabeyond]

119. your assumptions would be wrong. i have only had the most positive experiences with nurses and it

has only been with having babies, otherwise i have never required medical attention. i am a huge fan of nurses.

i would be referring to a statement from a nurse saying it allows to make access more difficult and stopping the helper from just grabbing a bottle for a hungry baby, but requiring to get an rn nurse to go out of her way to provide food. hence, taking longer to meet the request for food for the baby.

i would be referring to the mini lecture with each feeding.

[boston bean]

172. What I think is there will be some who believe they know better

and will in a way force women to breastfeed. Looking to delay the access to formula until a doctor can put an order in would be one way.

[boston bean]

97. I am not missing anything. The woman will have to get permission in her chart

for her baby to be bottlefed.

There should be absolutely NO restrictions on this. She needs permission and no reason from any medical person as to her reasoning or any medical necessity needs to be provided.

[vanlassie]

113. Not so. Declared formula feeders will already be

Noted by the womans MD. Documentation does not cause HUNGRY BABIES. Especially not formula fed ones! They are typically overfed from birth, actually.

[seabeyond]

122. making the formula less accessible... "nurses aide cannot just grab a bottle" but hell, if these

babies are overfed anyway, an instant diet is a good thing.

[pnwmom]

127. No mother will need a doctor's permission not to breastfeed. That's completely wrong.

All a doctor has to do is prescribe formula for the baby on the basis that breast milk is unavailable and the baby needs nutrition. That doesn't put any pressure on the mother.

[boston bean]

131. Uh, what if you got some doctor who thinks the woman can and should breastfeed and is pressuring.

Take a look at all the conscience laws on the books.

You think this isn't a reality, and a way to force women to breastfeed. This whole things makes me extremely uneasy.

[seabeyond]

30. agree with you again. nt

[seabeyond]

29. “The key to getting more moms to breast-feed is making the formula less accessible…

you seriously do not have issue with this? wow. so, a mom wants to bottle feed. just AFTER having a baby make it really hard for her. use her baby being hungry as a weapon against her to change her mind to breastfeed cause they made it harder to get, and will take more time, and the hungry baby.... well fuck it, all in the name of forcing breast feeding.

i find this nurses words appalling.

[vanlassie]

199. I see several inflammatory statements

In the NYT piece, which tends to make me question it in its entirety. There are people who are paid to keep this stirred up. Obviously no one is going to withhold or delay food for a baby. But supply inferior food free of charge to get more customers? Oh yeah that's happening. This is a public health issue. It's not a mommy war unless people try to make it one.

[vanlassie]

75. Yep.

[seabeyond]

26. again... "lazy/thoughtless nurses"

i can only talk about personal experience.

mine is not even close to this. i have to believe bloomberg is full of shit.

[redqueen]

32. Is there any evidence that Bloomberg thought this up on his own?

When I saw this news I immediately thought it was a good thing.

Hospitals are chronically understaffed, and often shortcuts are taken, one of those frequently being bottle feeding babies in the nursery rather than wheeling them to another floor, waking mom, etc.

[seabeyond]

44. do i fuckin care WHO thought this little garbage legislation up? i will repeat.

i have not seen or heard ANYWHERE where bottle feeding was placed in front of breast feeding, anywhere. not buying it

[redqueen]

51. I think the spin has been very effective.

No longer interested in attempting to discuss this here.

[seabeyond]

63. then whomever should step up and make it very clear how the fuck this is not about harassing new mom

we do not agree. i have watched this battle. i have both bottle fed and breast fed kids around me. i am not extreme in my view. but i do not ever hold to guilting a new mom. never.

[boston bean]

47. The solution to that is not shaming and guilting women who choose to bottle feed. nt

[pnwmom]

125. The mother is NOT required to have a medical reason for choosing not to breastfeed.

It's the baby whose doctor must provide a medical reason, such as: breast milk is unavailable (in the case of a baby whose mother can't or won't nurse); or the baby isn't gaining enough weight, etc.

[redqueen]

128. Yes, I posted that before I'd read anything but the spin.

I've since read up on it and am shocked to see the way this is being portrayed.

[pnwmom]

129. Kind of frustrating, isn't it? How did this get so twisted around?

[boston bean]

133. It is not twisted around.

What is twisted is other woman claiming to know what is best for other women when it comes to these personal decisions.

That is twisted. And that is what this campaign by the almost religious zealotry of the lactivists is about.

[pnwmom]

135. You've misunderstood the law completely. It doesn't require the woman to have

a medical reason for not breastfeeding. That's just bull.

The medical reason is for why the baby needs formula. And if breast milk is unavailable or inadequate, then there is a clear medical reason: the baby needs the nutrition.

[boston bean]

137. What if breat milk is readily available and not inadequate

and the woman just wants to bottle feed.

Let's get to the crux of this right now.

[pnwmom]

149. If the mother chooses not to nurse, then her milk is NOT READILY AVAILABLE

to the baby. It doesn't matter whether the mother can or can't produce sufficient milk. If she just wants to bottle feed and doesn't want to nurse, then her milk is not available to the baby.

That's entirely sufficient reason for a baby to have formula.

[boston bean]

158. I understand that, but why does she need to have permission from a doctor

to give her baby formula? Just the fact that it needs to be documented and the doctor holds some control over this seems to be the point you are missing.

It makes no sense, unless it is to somehow try and get women to not bottlefeed.

[pnwmom]

183. SHE doesn't need permission from the doctor. The BABY'S doctor will automatically authorize

formula feeding for any baby whose mother doesn't want to breastfeed. To do otherwise would constitute malpractice.

Even the link you showed me only dealt with babies of mothers who are already breastfeeding. This has nothing to do with getting women to not bottle-feed.

[boston bean]

193. I think you've finally recognized my point below.

I feel no need to re-state it again and again here.

[seabeyond]

210. from another stand point, i do NOT like the tagging that a mother is depriving, ergo, a medical

decision has to be made to feed the baby as if a mother is being derelict. that is nasty.

[redqueen]

134. All the spin and demagoguery.

Not sure but I'm starting to think maybe Murdoch has a stake in Nestle or something.

It's so far over the top... a lecture with every bottle of formula. That was actually printed and people are buying it.

[boston bean]

136. post the debunking of it. I'm open minded, and if it is debunked I'm happy to give in to that point

However, I've posted many reasons here in this thread, besides that, with what I feel is wrong with this.

Please address those as well. No one wins any argument or challenge in that fashion by narrowly focusing on such things, nor does it negate other arguments.

There is a lot more to it than that.

[redqueen]

139. I and several others have explained where the regulations are being misrepresented.

I'm really not interested in arguing about it further. I see the sharing of information about reduced health risks to infants as education, you see it as guilting and shaming by "zealots". Not sure there's any point in continuing. It seems best if we just agree to disagree for now.

[boston bean]

146. You are right, we won't see eye to eye, because this is not about

education. This takes it many steps beyond that. Requiring a mother to get permission from her doctor to give a medical reason to bottle feed her baby.

There is no medical reason to take into consideration, imho. This is someone's choice. Plain and simple. And I can see how zealots out there would be pressuring and forcing women who do not want to, to breastfeed.

All of the issues you have brought up can be dealt with without infringing upon anyone else.

[redqueen]

150. A doctor's input would only be needed in order to override a mother's preference to breastfeed.

It's the mother's choice to refuse formula for supplemental feedings. The nurse can't override it, but a doctor can.

It really is that simple.

[boston bean]

155. Has anything I've written been read?

Please think of this. A to be mother arrives at the hospital wanting to breast feed. She then changes her mind after delivery, and maybe even after she has successfully breastfed.

She must then have a doctors order to give her baby formula.

This is taking the free, unregulated choice away from the mother and giving the doctor control. What if you have a doctor who doesn't feel the baby needs formula because the mother is producing milk. Then health professionals give counsel to try and let the mother know the mistake she might be making if she chooses to bottlefeed. Which is what this whole lactivist movement is about and what their end goal is. This is all removing choice from the mother.

you don't think this crap will happen? Hell, most women who want to bottle feed are already looked down upon by the health professionals, making this choice difficult as it is.

Screw this crap is what I say. The mother makes the choice, not some doctor who can use use his/her authority to make a woman do what he feels is best for her.

And screw the lactivists who think these kind of tactics that they already employ are helping any woman.

[redqueen]

159. Of course, but simply the fact that you wrote it doesn't confer any authority.

The mother does not need her doctor's permission to change her mind. I realize the language isn't as specific as it should be but unless you can cite something more credible than sloppy journalists I'm going to take this sensationalism with a pound of salt.

Furthermore, I don't accept the characterization of the health commissioner in NY, the New York State Department of Health, the Greater New York Hospital Association, the Academy of Family Physicians, New York County Chapter, the American Academy of Pediatrics, District II, New York State and the Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine, New York State Chapter as "lactivists".

[boston bean]

162. They were pressured by lactivists, just like every other politician out there

are pressured by religious nutsos over abortion and contraception. And inroads are made daily by these freaks. Mea Culpa for not making that more clear.

She can change her mind, but it is the doctor who makes the final decision. Not the woman. That is my point, and I don't think any reading of this would change the true nature of what this new regulation does.

To make formula more difficult to get for breastfeeding babies, because some nurse didn't follow a patients wishes, they decide that rules for other women will be put in place and additional hurdles put in their path.

This is something that could have been handled without putting more pressure on women who want to bottlefeed.

If it has nothing to do with others controlling what women do with their bodies for what some think are better for a baby, why try to make a doctor sign off on a woman bottlefeeding her child.

This is about a lot more than just this regulation. You have lactivists out there that look down their nose at women who bottlefeed and want to impose their will on others. This is no different than choice argument. And it is this movement that I am sure are very proud of their success in NYC. Chip Chip Chip away...... All because there are some out there, think they know what's best for everyone.

[redqueen]

167. It's actually science that shows breastfeeding is so much better.

As for your assumption that a doctor's order is needed for a mother to change her mind, I guess you're free to believe what you like in the absence of clearer language.

As for the conflation of people who recognize the benefits of breast milk with "nutsos" and "fundies", I think I really do need to bow out now. I should have stuck to that idea earlier. Mea culpa.

[boston bean]

170. So it really does come down to what one thinks is better.

That is another discussion. Are there some benefits, yes, are all children who are bottlefed unhealthy, or have neurologic deficits, like lactivists say?

Does bottlefeeding make a baby die of SIDS like lactivists say?

This is not an open and shut case for the lactivists and they use fear and scare tactics to force people to do what they want them to do.

Sound familiar to other arguments about womens bodies?? Yeah, I think so.

[boston bean]

130. How about if she just wants to bottle feed?

OMG, this is disgusting.

This makes it all better, NOT!

[pnwmom]

118. You don't understand. The medical reason is for why the BABY needs formula,

NOT for why the mother shouldn't breastfeed.

Automatically, every baby with a mother who chooses not to breastfeed has a medical need for formula, for the nutrition.

[mercuryblues]

148. How long

do you think it will be before a doctor refuses to write the prescription for formula? You know because he thinks all women should breast feed.

To me this is just another way to tie women down. Outlaw abortion; let bosses decide if their insurance should pay for birth control and now doctors have to approve of formula.

[redqueen]

153. How many doctors refuse epidurals?

Just wondering where else this kind of refusal to respect patients' wishes might have manifested.

[boston bean]

154. The morning after pill, abortions, d + c's, contraception

Do you really need more.

[redqueen]

157. That, to me, seems like a lot of apples and oranges.

Abortion issues are a lot more hotly contested than L&D issues.

Many doctors say epidurals aren't the best but I've never heard of any refusing to order one for a mother who requested one.

[boston bean]

160. We see it differently. I see a direct correlation and chances of it happening.

You don't.

No matter what, this is some way restricts women from making a decision and putting it in someone elses hand.

I'll go with history, I think I have that on my side.

[mercuryblues]

156. did you

ever think in this day and age birth control would be an isssue?

How about rape victims being refused Morning after pill?

Pharmacists refusing to fill prescription because he thought the woman had an abortion?

Now a scenerio is set up where a doctor who thinks breast feeding is a woman's place can refuse to prescribe formula.

[redqueen]

161. Insurance coverage for birth control has always been an issue.

And yes, I've always seen abortion as a precarious right at best. I can very well see it being limited and restricted as much as possible. But this isn't abortion. This is an L&D issue which lasts only as long as the baby is in the hospital.

[boston bean]

163. The fundies think abortion is life and death too.

and not just for the fetus, but for the mother.

[mercuryblues]

168. so what you are

suggesting is that a woman should let her baby go hungry if a doctor refuses to prescibe formula, until she gets home?

This is nothing more than an attempt at controlling what a woman can and can not do and using her newborn child to do it.

[redqueen]

169. No, I am suggesting nothing of the sort.

I really am done with this.

[seabeyond]

25. here in the backward amarillo texas, there was no thought of handing a bottle. it was all focused

on breast feeding, with specialized nurses to spend time and help. and an out patient program for new moms.

[seabeyond]

20. this goes along the lines of want an abortion... then sit thru a lecture how bad you are.

it is wrong.

[redqueen]

27. A lot is being made of that one bullet point.

I wonder how many people are reading anything more about it.

The faq here indicates that the only time medical necessities comes into play is for supplemental feedings.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/ms/latchonnyc.shtml

[boston bean]

52. If a mother asks for a bottle to feed her baby, why does she need a doctors order?

I can see this being played out in a lot of instances. Woman goes in, wanting to breast feed, then if she changes her mind, she gotta ask the doctor to indicate it in the chart. This is not free choice. Especially when you have nutso lunatic fringes that want to control every bit of a womans body.

[seabeyond]

69. after reading that, i think it needs to be cleared up if they are talking about the moms that are

not awake and able. they make it sound like it is the mom out of commission and that is why they have to document. but then, i would think they would have to anyway. i need clarity what that piece is actually saying. if they are addressing the moms that are awake, and are making the decision to bottle feed and the mom actually needs the doctors permission, then that is bullshit.

[seabeyond]

66. ok. thank you for this. it is much clearer on anything i read. this is stating

that the go to.... bottle can only be used, probably if the mother is out of commission and cannot breast feed. that is a given anyway.

i am not seeing a problem here. i have never seen nurses ignore a mothers want to breastfeed. it just is not done. without the hype of the breastfeeding groups, i would have to see real statistics on hospitals that ignore mothers desires to breast feed.

this though...

Limit access to infant formula by hospital staff

one article specifically had a nurse state, how it allows harder access in a busy hospital and a baby getting the bottle in a time friendly manner encouraging breastfeeding. that is pure manipulation.

we need to be clear that medical necessity is not addressing any mom that is conscious and has made her decision.

[redqueen]

68. It's no harder than getting medication.

I'm telling you, this is spin.

Industry-backed spin, is my guess.


And I have no statistics, but I can tell you that both my children were given bottles DESPITE my wishes. I doubt I'm the only woman in the world whose preference to have my child brought down to the maternity ward for nursing was ignored.

[boston bean]

71. Where is the spin. A mother needs her doctors permission to give the baby formula from a bottle.

Many women go into labor expecting to breastfeed, and then change their minds.

It is theirs to make. Formula is not a medication and should not be treated as such.

This stinks to high heaven. And it's not the formula companies coming up with these new rules and regulations.

[seabeyond]

78. it's not the formula companies coming up with these new rules and regulations. nt

[redqueen]

80. No, a mother does not need her doctor's permission.

A nurse or nurse's aide can't supplement with formula unless the doctor says she can or the mother expressly grants permission.

[boston bean]

81. The mother must approach a nurse to get a doctor to note in the chart

that the baby can be bottlefed.

How are you not seeing this? Can the mother just write it herself in the chart, and come up with the medical necessity for it

Are you saying the nurse can make this decision upon the mothers request? Do you know that to be the case. Do nurses write orders in charts?

[redqueen]

83. Thats what every new mother does.

You have to tell someone what your preference is. Usually a written form. Just telling a nurse if you change your mind is not new.

The only new thing is now they can't ignore your preference.

[boston bean]

85. Fron your link:

Enforce the New York State hospital regulation to not supplement breastfeeding infants with formula unless medically indicated and documented on the infant’s medical chart.

Really, this is the way it was before, then why the need for these new regulations?? What was the problem again.

You are missing that it must be medically indicated and that that reason is in the infants chart.

Taking the choice away from the mother. Any time you have to ask permission for something, the choice isn't really ones own.

[seabeyond]

76. "not to breastfeed is to put your baby at risk." hype.

your post 11 bothers me a lot. http://www.democraticunderground.com/12558585#post11

Lisa Paladino of Staten Island University Hospital crystallized the “nudge” comparison when she said: “The key to getting more moms to breast-feed is making the formula less accessible…This way, the RN has to sign out the formula like any other medication. The nurse’s aide can’t just go grab another bottle.”

they make it harder to get the milk when the baby is hungry. how chicken shit is that. you are a mom. you have a hungry baby. you want to fuckin feed the baby RIGHT NOW. yet there is a chuckle that now the formula is less accessible. it will no longer be easy for someone who has time to get that bottle to the mom in a timely fashion. we now have a crying baby.

wtf? i mean.

wtf?

i have an huge issue with this.

[redqueen]

82. Less accessible as in more like medicine than paper towels.

Medicine isn't inaccessible and its not an ordeal to get it. It just requires that there be some level of control as opposed to just pulling it out of a cabinet or fridge.

[boston bean]

84. Right women can't write themselves prescriptions, they need a doctor to write one.

Why is that the case with baby formula? Why should it be?

[seabeyond]

86. it is not readily available. a new mom wanting to feed crying baby NOW, is a known. they have made

it less accessible ad more time consuming to get that food to the baby.

[redqueen]

87. If it is in the chart that mom prefers to bottle feed,

it will be pulled in advance for feedings.

It doesn't need a prescription. It just requires documented approval. From mom OR the doctor, in case it is medically necessary to override mom's preference to breastfeed.

[seabeyond]

88. “The key to getting more moms to breast-feed is making the formula less accessible…

the RN has to sign out the formula like any other medication. The nurse’s aide can’t just go grab another bottle.”

see. i am not seeing that. to me, this is cleary a form of harassment. we are going to pruposely make it so that you wont want to bottle feed, cause your baby will have to wait.

nowhere am i seeing once the mom has made the decision the formula will be readily available. and that is disgusting manipulation at the expense of the baby, but the new, vulnerable mom, too.

[redqueen]

89. Every patient in the hospital has to wait for medicine.

Is that harassment?

This idea that because nurses and nurse's aides have to follow orders rather than grab formula off a shelf will cause guilt over crying babies waiting an extra minute to eat makes absolutely no sense at all to me.

None.

[boston bean]

90. Excuse me, this isn't about just that, it is about taking it out of the mothers hands

and placing it in the hands of nurses and doctors who get to decide if it is medically necessary.

You can't see this as an issue of choice, and harassment of women who decided to bottle feed, is amazing to me.

Mucho respect, but we will definitely have to agree to disagree, with me disagreeing vehemently.

[seabeyond]

92. oh, red, we are talking a newborn that needs to eat. not wait for medicine. nt

[redqueen]

94. Yes and they're almost always on a schedule.

Most often the nurses will wake them for feedings.

[seabeyond]

96. that is not the words being used. i can only go off what i am reading. not what i would like to HOPE

what another will do because otherwise, it is disgusting.

the words state that they are using this to deprive a baby of food in a timely fashion to encourage breastfeeding. how can the words say anything else, but what they are saying.

[redqueen]

99. No, that's your interpretation of the words.

My interpretation is that they're discouraging hospital staff from using the most convenient option, and forcing them to follow the moms' and doctors' orders. This will encourage breastfeeding not by depriving hungry babies of food, but by making every effort not to lessen mom's milk supply (by way of supplemental bottle feeding against the mother's wishes or the doctor's orders).

They need to address this atrocious demagoguery. It is completely ridiculous but somehow extremely effective.

I have to say, my favorite part is how they're making such an effort to tie it to the mayor. I wonder why that is. I would suspect industry sources for the spin, but the insistence on portraying this initiative with the mayor being some kind of evil tyrannical mastermind behind it makes me wonder if its a political source.

Either way, the sensationalism is a big red flag.

[boston bean]

101. evil tyrannical masterminds behind it are the lactivists

who wish to shame and guilt new mothers into breastfeeding.

That is what this is truly about, and one look into the movement will provide all you need to know about it. No are using new regulations to further that shame and guilt, by taking the decision out of their hands by needing to get permission of medical necessity placed in the chart.

That decision is the moms alone and no doctor need provide any permission, EVER!

Please do some research on their tactics. Sea just posted that each mother will get a warning about bottlefeeding versus breastfeeding with each bottle the nurse brings to you to feed you new baby.

This is disgusting, imho.

[redqueen]

107. sea posted a quote from a writer at the NY Post.

I really am done here. This is pointless.

[seabeyond]

103. "they" are not doing this. this was a quote YOU put up with a medical womans comment. not "they"

you are purposely ignoring what this woman says that is saying, it is a good thing to make that baby wait to eat.

[seabeyond]

79. and redq. i am just as appalled that you wanted to breastfeed and made that clear and your babies

were given a bottle.

to be really clear.

i think that is atrocious. i have never heard that.

[no_hypocrisy]

31. I'm not a fan of formula, but . . .

there are times a mother can't breastfeed. My mother had mastitis and would have passed the infection on to me if I continued to suckle. I had to be put on formula for survival.

OTOH, a lot of formula is soy-based, yes, meaning GM soy and I'm not at all in favor of that. My gf's son couldn't breastfeed and he was prescribed fresh goats milk. This was 30 years ago before Whole Foods and Fairway. She had to go to a rural farm to buy the stuff.

Back to the issue at hand. I have a problem with an elected official making the call, not the pediatrician, not the mother. Bloomberg may mean well, but it's not his call.

[redqueen]

33. Is anyone reading the FAQ?

Doctors and moms are being put in charge with this initiative.

[boston bean]

72. I did, and it still requires a doctors permission to change from breastfeeding to bottle feeding.

This is an assault on choice.

[HockeyMom]

41. I had to buy powdered goat's milk for my daughter,

after she weaned. She was severly allergic to all daily products (even Lactaid), and soy. She is an adult now, and still allergic. My daughter just loves that she can now buy goat's milk and other products in almost any supermarket. I suppose a lot of people with allergies have found out that goat's is the closest to human.

I am still for CHOICE for a mother on how to feed her baby. She should not be coerced one way or another. Sorry, Bloomberg, and all the other staunch pro breast feeding people, I don't agree with you, even as a breastfeeding Mom.

[Renew Deal]

56. This sounds like it's about money

[seabeyond]

98. a mini-lecture on the benefits of breast-feeding along with each bottle of formula.

Not long after putting forward a ban on oversized sugary drinks, Mayor Michael Bloomberg is again taking flak for promoting a public-health initiative. Through "Latch On NYC," 27 of 40 New York City hospitals will promote breast-feeding among new moms -- to the extent of "locking up" baby formula and documenting a "medical reason" for all bottles dispensed. No new moms will be denied formula if that's what they want -- but moms will get a mini-lecture on the benefits of breast-feeding along with each bottle of formula. Corporate-sponsored schwag promoting baby formula -- like "lanyards and mugs" -- will also be outlawed. Predictably, opinion was split, though breast-feeding advocates are cheering the move. Others were less enthused: "If they put pressure on me, I would get annoyed," one mother-of-two told the New York Post.

how is this mini lecture with EACH bottle given not the same as the rw men giving women a LECTURE prior to an abortion? how can we say, a mom makes a decision for her baby, but she must endure a LECTURE, that will guilt them, with EVERY fuckin bottle of milk they get to feed their baby, and not see that as wrong.

how do we say one guilt is cool, and one guilt is SO fuckin wrong.

tell me.

cause all i see is hypocrisy.

[redqueen]

100. I'm astounded that Murdoch's rag is being taken at face value.

Do you honestly believe the "mini lecture" will come with each bottle of formula?

This is laughable.

They will make sure new moms know how much better breast milk is at the time the mom indicates she prefers to use formula. Spin it as a lecture if you must.

[seabeyond]

102. this is not murdochs rag. it is the people saying what will happen. and if you really do not

zealots for breastfeeding will not make it damn guilt ridden, then you are so naive.


http://now.msn.com/nyc-hospitals-take-pro-breast-feeding-position

[redqueen]

104. Really?

Please cite the source for the 'lecture with every bottle' crap.

[boston bean]

106. I see it as no different that making a woman view an ultrasound prior to

having an abortion.

It's sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong, and it is shaming and guilting women who choose to bottlefeed.

No difference in my mind.

[redqueen]

108. I see it very differently.

In the case of abortion, the fetus is still a fetus, and abortion is her choice.

In the case of educating new mothers about how much better breast milk is for their baby, that child is now entitled to have someone ensuring that new moms are fully aware of all the facts so that she can make a fully-informed decision which will impact the well being of the child.

[boston bean]

111. This is not education, it is guilting and shaming and trying to force women

to choose something different, and if they don't, make them feel like bad mothers for doing so.

It stinks to high heaven, and it most certainly is a comparable comparison. We are talking new regulations, not some campaign to tout the positive effects of breastfeeding.

Even your post here to me seems to shame mothers for choosing something, that some feel will be a negative impact on the child. There are a hell of a lot of things that can impact the well being of a child. Perhaps a mother who doesn't want to breastfeed, and is forced by nuts who want to control what she does with her body, could have a negative impact. A mother who needs to work, a mother who needs to sleep more than 2 hours a night without waking up. A lot of different things can have a negative impact. How about letting people make choices that are best for them, without further regulation, pressuring them into a different decision. Give an inch and a mile will be taken.

It's ludicrous.

[seabeyond]

109. those defending. i am all for breastfeeding. cheers to every mother that breastfed. truly, you

are awesome. the best. and you did wonderful by your baby. be proud. feel good. i will stand up for every womans right to breast feed where ever the fuck she wants. and that means do NOT take a baby into a bathroom to eat. do NOT deny a baby food, when hungry, even if in public.

if you do not know what it is like to be among the bottle feeders, in a medical community that makes statements like, bottle feeding is putting your baby at risk, then you need to do some research. if you do not listen, in an open mind, to the breastfeeding zealots, then you need to do some research.

this is NOT my battle. i had my babies, healthy babies, to this day as healthy or more so than any. i breast fed one, and one that has neurological issues had problems, and i did not breast feed that one.

i had a doctor be so ugly to me, when in a time with fear, so hateful because i did not breastfeed. a man. fuck him. i know what it is to have the wrath of a pro breastfeeding zealot be ugly.

any mom that wants breast feeding, that is dismissed and the baby given a bottle.... fuck that nurse. she was wrong in every way.

there has been a battle between the breastfeed/bottlefeed forever. and one certainly sits on the high horse and the other prods along with head hanging in shame.

and that is what this promotes.

[MadrasT]

142. Hey BB...

I have read this whole thread and I still share your concern.

To me it sounds an awful lot like "Well, you can still *get* an abortion, you just have to (get an invasive medically unnecessary sonagram) (look at the pictures) (listen to these lectures) first". And we *know* they are trying to shame women out of having abortions with those tactics and laws.

Slippery slope and all that.

[boston bean]

165. Hey MT!

Thanks!!

[seabeyond]

171. dealing w/ family crisis... AGAIN, so cant keep up. BUT this thread certainly shows we can disagree

with each other. stridently and vociferously

i think that is cool.

gonna catch up later and jump in again, myself, lol.

[MadrasT]

174. Shhhhhhh

Everybody knows we ban anyone who doesn't toe the line here with dogmatic second wave Dworkinism. Or something like that.

[seabeyond]

175. you are an hoot.... so much fun. nt

[boston bean]

176. I'm getting ready to block

Redqueen! LMAO!!!! HA!!!!

NO WAY!!!!!!!

Love ya RQ, we just see this differently!

[seabeyond]

177. you betcha.... wink. nt

[redqueen]

179. Hahahaha...

I shoulda asked you to do it for a joke, just to see the fireworks.

[seabeyond]

180. lol lol, that would have been the funniest....

cute.

[boston bean]

214. ha!

nope, still wouldn't do it.

[Little Star]

213. Now that made me laugh!

[HockeyMom]

181. Isn't odd that those those of us who have breastfed

are defending the rights of those to NOT breasteed? Maybe because we know the "problems" and won't hinder any mother decides not to. Myself? I was also a stay at home mother. With a daughter with colic and allergies, I NEVER could have nursed her and had to work 8 hours a day at the same time.

Again, again, let the WOMEN DECIDE what they want to do based on their doctors and lifestyle. As a woman who breastfed, I am not going to support Bloomie, or anyone else, who thinks they know better than mothers or their doctors.

[Nikia]

223. In my recent (less than a week ago) with delivering a baby a baby at a hospital and short stay

I don't really see how this limits choice.
During my labor, the nurses were on the phone with the doctor who had to approve certain things. The nurses, to my knowledge, made certain medical decisions on their own such as denying me an epidural "late" in labor and gave me permission to urinate but not defecate when I was about 8 cm dilated. They strongly encouraged me to give permission to ask the doctor to prescribe demerol after denying me an epidural.
After delivery, while I was still under the influence of demerol, they got my permission to give my baby formula to raise its blood sugar. I had gestational diabetes during pregnancy so they tested right away. I'm not sure if it was medically necessary or not, but they did not ask the doctor and I would have probably agreed to anything at that point.
Despite having successfully breastfed my first child, I had trouble breast feeding during my hospital stay. The nurses spent more time trying to help me get my baby positioned right than it would have taken to unlock formula and sign it out even if they would have had to call the doctor. Being at a small hospital, I lucked out that there were no other women in the ob ward after I delivered my baby until I was being discharged. I can imagine that in a busy ward that trying to help a woman breast feed would slow them down.
With everything else that goes on in an ob ward for the nurses, I don't think that having to unlock a cabinet, documenting it, and having permission from the doctor or mother is an overly taxing task.

[seabeyond]

224. congrats to you woman. yea... a new baby.

and your second?

enjoy. (i know, totally tiring. lol. )

[Nikia]

225. Thanks

I have two boys now, my newborn and a three year old.
I am rather tired but for some reason I took a moment to check out DU and post instead of going to bed early.

[seabeyond]

227. ha. that happens. lol. i have two boys, same age difference. 2 and half years. good spacing.

[vanlassie]

226. Congrats! Hope it's going OK now?

[redqueen]

228. Awwww! Congratulations!

Glad you had a quiet unit for your delivery and hope that you and baby are both doing well.