Again... "In Front Of His Staff" - MLK, Bernie Sanders, And Democratic Socialism...

[WillyT]

Last edited Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:03 AM - Edit history (1)

MLK On Democratic Socialism:

“There must be a better distribution of wealth and maybe America must move toward a democratic socialism.” -- Martin Luther King, Jr

You can't talk about solving the economic problem of the Negro without talking about billions of dollars. You can't talk about ending the slums without first saying profit must be taken out of slums. You're really tampering and getting on dangerous ground because you are messing with folk then. You are messing with captains of industry... Now this means that we are treading in difficult water, because it really means that we are saying that something is wrong... with capitalism.... There must be a better distribution of wealth and maybe America must move toward a democratic socialism". ~ Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Frogmore, S.C. November 14, 1966. Speech in front of his staff.

Link: http://keywiki.org/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.

[HerbChestnut]

1. Now now

Don't let facts get in the way of a good narrative.

[Betty Karlson]

167. Loving your reaction. Spot on! n/t

[merrily]

199. Which facts?

[Hortensis]

232. Here's one: "Trevor Loudon releases Bernie Sanders exposé

video in anticipation of his upcoming political documentary."

Pointing out that WillyT copied in right-wing spin from Trevor Loudon, who's going after Bernie, may not be the particular fact sought, but it's pretty funny. One should be careful which right-wing smear-meisters one gives exposure to on DU.

CEDAR FALLS IOWA, 01-December-2015 – Author and speaker Trevor Loudon has released a video exposing the radical ties of Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders in anticipation of Loudon’s upcoming political documentary.

The New Zealand native is working with Iowa-based Director Judd Saul on the film The Enemies Within, which seeks to expose anti-American ties in the federal government. Loudon believes that a minority of radicals are responsible for unconstitutional and damaging policies that have been imposed on Americans for decades, a trend that has greatly accelerated under the Obama administration.

The carefully-honed media image of Bernie Sanders paints him as a mild socialist who seeks an America that provides more government services, like Norway or Sweden. Loudon, however, proves in his short film based on painstaking research that Bernie Sanders hard-core communist.

Loudon, who first exposed the connection between then-Senator Obama and Hawaiian communist Frank Marshall Davis in 2007 refers to Bernie Sanders as “a totalitarian at heart.” Sanders “has worked with spies, terrorist supporters and Eastern Bloc style communists his entire political career.”

http://gulagbound.com/50387/trevor-loudon-releases-bernie-sanders-expose-video-in-anticipation-of-his-upcoming-political-documentary/

[merrily]

235. Doesn't answer my question at all. Just another gratuituous smear

[Hortensis]

237. It's not MY smear on Bernie, it's WillyT's, indirectly of course.

I didn't know who this Trevor guy was until WillyT introduced him to me, but I look almost everything up, you know, so the rest comes out. Including what a right-wing sleezebag Trevor Loudon is.

[merrily]

240. I meant it's your gratuitous smear on WillyT. And not an answer to my question, either.

[Hortensis]

244. Oh, calling WillyT and his cohort out for

bringing right-wing smears on Bernie to DU and also for their constant pokes at our black community is very CALLED FOR, very WARRANTED, for very GOOD REASON. At a time when Bernie is trying to woo minorities, a clique here is doing battle with DU's own.

What's the fun of being a political warrior if there's no one to engage in hostilities? If no enemies, some apparently must be created? Is that it?

Although, speaking of gratuitous, uncalled-for behavior, one might have thought all the non-minority Hillary supporters, to name just one group, would satisfy that need.

So, why the continued insistence by supposed Bernie supporters on sabotaging here at DU Bernie's efforts to build bridges? It seems to me the very definition of uncalled-for, or as you prefer, gratuitous behavior. To put it mildly.

BTW, hard-right attackers like WillyT's author always turn out to be flaming racists. Their bigotry is never limited to just liberals or Democrats. One famous psychologist calls right-wing bigots equal-opportunity racists because, no matter what they claim, they are hostile toward every group that isn't their own.

But then, we all knew that already, right?

[Hortensis]

255. No comment, anyone?

[JaneyVee]

2. So democratic socialism involves moving away from capitalism?

So why isn't Bernie telling the voters that?

[WillyT]

5. What Are You Talking About ???

He has..

[roguevalley]

36. apparently some can't tell the difference from capitalism and what we've had for fifty-sixty years

[MrMickeysMom]

86. She doesn't know, WillyT....

I've never gotten a straight answer.

Of course, many people who talk like this never have listened or read anything he has said.

[merrily]

201. The important thing is to find a way to smear Sanders, even though her sig line used to be

"Bernie Sanders 2016. Fuck yeah!"

[MrMickeysMom]

251. Whoooo....

.... That is predictably strange

[merrily]

252. Well

[daleanime]

6. Because he's......

"Evil". Have a great night.

[redstateblues]

8. because it's a losing platform

[merrily]

202. Only in your imagination so far. He does quite well in head to head polls with Republicans.

Often better than Hillary.

[Scootaloo]

9. Because it doesn't.

Democratic socialism is a capitalist system with strong regulation and lots of public investment, maintained through democratic procedures. It does require a move away from lasseiz-faire capitalism, which is inherently predatory and exploitative. But capitalism is a pretty big tent, despite what the Chicago School would have us all think.

[senz]

18. Ding ding ding. We have a winnah!

Thank you, Scootaloo.

[MADem]

108. At whom are you directing that comment?

Porcine chorus? Who are these singing pigs, pray tell?

What is a "quizling?" That sounds like an apprentice game show contestant.

Are you trying to liken people with whom you disagree with piggy, traitorous "Quislings?" That's a pretty loaded image, no matter what way you play it.

If you're talking about DUers you might want to modulate your invective. If you aren't talking about DUers you would do well to make that clear.

[BainsBane]

179. Evidently that also includes anyone who has read Marx

and takes their lessons on what constitutes socialism from those readings as opposed to a politician and his supporters determined to render it anodyne and therefore meaningless. I fully expect that before long we'll hear about how unfettered profits for the gun industry is a "socialist" principle.

[ismnotwasm]

218. Indeed.

[LiberalArkie]

44. It is just not our capitalism that benefits corporations at the expense of the public.

[MrMickeysMom]

92. Plus a Jillion!

[PotatoChip]

180. Indeed. Old Milton Friedman would be very proud of today's D establishment party.

Especially it's embrace of TPP, TISA and TTIP.

Just when I begin thinking that things cannot get any worse, they do.

[merrily]

203. And even laissez faire capitalism doesn't include corporate welfare, which we also have in spades.

[senz]

23. Scootaloo answered your question, Janey.

Now please put your Joseph McCarthy imitation away.

Thanks.

[Purveyor]

176. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message
On Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:32 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Scootaloo answered your question, Janey.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=867961

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

The poster is comparing JaneyVee -- who asked a calm, reasonable question -- to a notorious Republican demagogue in the 50's, whose false accusations led to the Red Scare. Comparing any DUer to Senator Joe McCarthy is a nasty slur.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:41 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's only a McCarthy imitation, not the real thing. No foul.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[joshcryer]

177. Meanwhile, the linked site in the OP...

...is literally run by a modern day McCarthy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Loudon

You can't make this stuff up.

[merrily]

204. Wikipedia? LOL! That's really stretching for a smear.

[senz]

178. Wow. Thank you, Purveyor.

Someone said earlier that they're on the warpath with alerts today. Guess I'll have to fall in love with euphemisms again. Oh well.

Thanks so much.

[bvf]

65. Perhaps if you took your

fingers out of your ears...

[rhett o rick]

159. Do you agree or disagree? nm

[merrily]

200. Sanders has made a yooge secret of things he thinks government should do. Are you serious?

BTW, Democratic Socialism involves working within (a) a capitalistic system and (b) within the Democratic Party.

Like, you know, the New Deal, the Fair Deal and the Great Society ideas of FDR, Truman and JFK/LBJ.

Learning the truth about this wouldn't take a lot.

Lots of posts on this at DU, with links, videos, everything.

[SidDithers]

3. Stockholm Syndrome...nt

Sid

[Scootaloo]

10. You forgot this:

[SidDithers]

14. Frankly, I don't find the racism and bigotry displayed in the Stockholm Syndrome thread at all funny

Obviously, YMMV.

Sid

[Scootaloo]

16. Is that this thread?

[rhett o rick]

217. Some like to label that which they don't understand or don't agree with as "racist", "sexist",

"homophobic", or "bigotry". They throw those words around to try to scare off those that might want to discuss the issue. They are careful not to address the issue itself as they might reveal their own biases. And if they don't like the message they will attack the source (ad hominem) and never address the issue.

[bravenak]

17. Me neither. Some have begun acting very badly.

[SusanCalvin]

61. I had not seen that OP before.

OMG. Bookmarked it so I don't forget.

(Tablet doesn't block GD: P right, but I'm kinda sorry/grateful to now know about that piece of work.)

[bravenak]

66. That op...

Uh uh uh. Terrible sad and pathetic.

[SusanCalvin]

72. And, sadly, from my point of view,

it's damaging to Bernie, at least here.

I now believe I understand your point of view regarding some of his "supporters" causing you to remove your support. I'm on the verge of sharing your POV.

Not that I didn't already find this garbage probably damaging - I just wasn't ready to turn from the person himself. I'm pondering it now.

(Hey, I've been booted from the Bernie group already, huzzah!)

[bravenak]

75. I'm booted from that group too.

It is damaging Bernie all over the place. I'm resigning myself to sending him mean tweets.

[SusanCalvin]

77. LOL!

I did need a laugh, but did you have to cause me to waste that mouthful of wine?

[bravenak]

80. My bad!

I just sent him a fresh batch. Whenever one of his supporters upset me I vow to tell him personally. Send him a link.

[SusanCalvin]

83. Maybe he'll listen.

You already know I think he should hire you.

[bravenak]

87. I do not think he will.

I'm at the point where I think he approves.
He should have hired me for real. But they would harass me cause I'd have LOTS TO SAY.

[SusanCalvin]

88. If I thought he approved of some stuff that goes on here,

example just a couple minutes ago, I'd be out. Much as I don't want a corporatist.

[bravenak]

91. I think he sees this stuff as side issues that he does not want to touch.

He has been like that for a good long while. Like the way he removed certain attributes from the strikers to please or whatever the crowd he was speaking to. Yeah. It's on him at this point. He has been notified many times.

[SusanCalvin]

96. Yep, I sure was not pleased with the attribute omission. nt

[bravenak]

98. I tweeted him about that. I think I might become a big tweeter.

He will notice after 100000 tweets.

[SusanCalvin]

101. You can do it!

https://m.

[bravenak]

112. Boom! Just sent some more.

I should keep it up.

[SusanCalvin]

114. Please. Because miracles could happen.

[Hortensis]

229. I suspect his message has always attracted a

bunch of anti-liberal leftists and various extreme reactors. Change the message or learn to live with some always buzzing around nearby?

[Hortensis]

227. Really? Oh, good for you.

Poor whoever gets to monitor this stuff, though.

[bravenak]

228. I feel for her/him.

But I must satisfy myself.

[Hortensis]

230. And it's a service to the campaign, right? :)

[bravenak]

234. Gets him twitter hits at least

[Gore1FL]

226. If someone doesn't vote for a candiadte because a stranger on the internet made them sad,

they are likely not motivated enough to go to the polls anyway.

[Babel_17]

239. It's more of a talking point, for forums

A straw man argument that it's those horrible Sanders posters that change peoples support.
Some of the nicest, most generous, people I know are Republicans. They are often clueless to many things, for example when we destroyed Iraq in search of WMDs. Their being generous people doesn't sway me politically. I had a very generous boss* that I had to piss off as I insisted on leaving the company yard to go vote for Obama in 2012. We were doing hurricane cleanup and got back very, very, late. I suspected he was deliberately keeping us (Union laborers) hanging out as he had surmised how those of who voted would vote. Suppressing the vote was a bit of a thing at the time**. I finally said I have leave now to vote. He asked, well who are you voting for? Lol, I replied, "I'm voting for jobs!".

I'm always amazed at how employers in the construction field forget how it's Democrats that prime the pump. But I digress.

Many of the anti-war activists were/are rude, arrogant, and angry, pundits. But that never stopped me from looking at the facts they presented. I saw the lies that were getting passed off by the administration and tried to spread the word.

Many of the pro-invasion people I knew IRL were a great bunch, and many of the anti-war crowd were uncomfortably cynical, but this was a real life and death issue, and it wasn't about sitting with the cool kids in the cafeteria. You spoke what you thought was the truth.

*Truly. He'd keep people working when his subordinates would favor layoffs. We earned union wages but still got free stuff like clothes, turkeys, gift certificates, and lots of kind words. He just though Romney was a god send and didn't want us to vote for Obama.

**https://occupywallst.org/forum/two-steps-backward-suppressing-the-vote-in-2012/

[SusanCalvin]

249. It's not just one stranger, and I'm not sad, I'm disgusted.

Hopefully, as I've said before, here only matters here.

But it's still not pretty. I hope nobody ever claims to support me and behaves this way.

It's also why I've trashed the Bernie forum. (Yes, I know there are some not-pretty Hillary supporters as well. But I'm still a Bernie supporter, so this garbage from some of his "supporters" bothers me more.)

And I've voted in every single election, not just the general, for nearly 50 years now. Plus money and work for candidates. Assume much?

Well, I only wound up here by accident - I trashed GD: P as well, but trashing doesn't work right on the tablet. So in future I will try very hard to look at the forum title. Oh, VERY hard.

[Divernan]

163. Oh, Sid! Your enema meme is just so YOU! Stay classy, babe!

[merrily]

205. Couldn't be you and some others read that crap into it, and have been treating

what you read into it as gospel ever since, now could it, Syd?

WillyT posts a lot and has been posting for years. If that is the only post of his that you can claim is racist, I'd check my own interpretation, if I were you.

[JustAnotherGen]

264. Me? I agree w/you - and I'm bored with screen shots from other sites

[virtualobserver]

45. you're not a fan of MLK, I see.

[SidDithers]

47. I'm not a fan of the OP using MLK...

over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, to provide cover for the sentiments expressed in the Stockholm Syndrome thread.

Sid

[bravenak]

49. Ding ding ding!

[SusanCalvin]

102. Thank you. nt

[zappaman]

125. Exactly.

Amazing that some DUers stick up for that shitty thread.

[Starry Messenger]

137. Especially since he's driving traffic to a site that is virulently fascist.

The quote is not on that site because the web admin is a fan of socialism, let us say.

[joshcryer]

168. Um, you weren't kidding.

I never saw that site before but the guy behind it, Trevor Loudon, is a far right fascist who makes his money bashing the left.

Holy shit this is purely intentional, too. Anyone who points this out is going to be dismissed.

[Starry Messenger]

170. Oh you know it.

The last time I pointed this out to the OP, he rewarded me with the puke smiley, I guess facts make him ill?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026993155#post27

I'm sure there must be a better source for this quote, if the OP still feels the need to repost this piece every 3 weeks. Loudon must be laughing his entire ass off when he gets linked here for this purpose.

[joshcryer]

171. What's worse is he's fundraising for his movie.

So this is giving direct hits to his site for his movie.

That this is allowed is beyond comprehension to me.

Another fascist shit show on the internet I wish I didn't know about.

If anyone wants to share MLK's views all they have to do is quote any passage from Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?, yes, he wanted redistribution and a basic income. This is not controversial. And it's good. But to link that site to quote MLK is beyond the pale.

[Starry Messenger]

172. I alerted on this months ago for source link being inappropriate.

The jury told me to jump in the lake, essentially. I don't get why this is allowed either. I mean, the guy runs an anti-left hate site and has a documentary ready to roll when he gets funding.

Blows my mind.

[joshcryer]

174. It's deeply depressing.

And it's building directly on the anti-AA sentiment around here. Fuck me. I got nothing.

[yardwork]

191. Isn't that interesting.

[Starry Messenger]

221. I find the obdurate need to keep doing it even after being told

is interesting too.

[merrily]

206. Linking to Wikipedia gets a DUer smeared now. Wow. New lows at DU daily.

[Starry Messenger]

220. Um, check the url.

That is ***not*** Wikipedia.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

189. If you can make a legitimate argument that Sid is an enemy of Dr. King I will donate $25.00 to DU...

you're not a fan of MLK, I see.

If you can make a legitimate argument that Sid is a foe of Dr. King I will donate $25.00 to DU and post it.

If you can not I respectfully ask that you retract and withdraw your calumny against my friend.


Thank you in advance.

[SusanCalvin]

257. Yes.

That's a hell of a thing to say to ANY Democrat unless, as you say, you can support it.

Sorry for butting in. And, yeah, I know, I said I was gonna stay out of this forum in general and, by implication, this thread in particular. I should do that now.

[rhett o rick]

120. LOL. Did this come out of the Think Tank? nm

[Bread and Circus]

4. Those are some pretty wise words...

[WillyT]

7. Yes They Are... Spot On, In Fact...

[leftofcool]

11. Stockholm Syndrome.

[Bread and Circus]

15. Do you think your post is intelligent?

[leftofcool]

21. Maybe you should ask the original poster.

Surely he will offer you a link. Oh wait, he may not want anyone else to see that thread. Reminds me, I need to go kick it.

[Bread and Circus]

31. I don't think you understand what Stockholm Syndrome really means.

[bravenak]

50. I don't think you understand how damn offensive that was.

[Cha]

81. Jury Results on leftofcool's post..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=868187

[bravenak]

82. Hahahahahaha!

[Cha]

85. ..

[brush]

78. The Stockholm Syndrome OP was offensive and so is yours to suggest we don't understand . . .

what the Stockholm Syndrome means.

We understand the insulting snark of the original Stockholm Syndrome OP, as well as your post that has the gall to questions peoples' understanding of a widely known concept. WTF?

[Bread and Circus]

84. I said "you" not "you people" so where did this "we" stuff come in?

[brush]

104. Nobody said you said "you people".

Have you even read the original Stockholm Syndrome post?

Doesn't sound like it because if you did you'd know it was snark directed at AAs.

That's where the "we" comes from.

Your bluster about word usage still doesn't cover up your statement that grown adults don't understand what Stockholm Syndrome means. It merely avoids owning up to your insult.

[brush]

162. Can you stick to the topic?

I never mentioned Clinton. I mentioned your insinuation that people don't understand what Stockholm Syndrome means.

I like Sanders' positions but his supporters here on DU mostly stink, especially in their running-off-at-the-mouth put downs of African Americans — like the anti-Clinton tangent you just went off on.

What's that old proverb: It's better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a . . .

[DemocratSinceBirth]

190. As a white guy it is beyond amazing to see other white guys

As a white guy it is beyond amazing to see other white guys lecture black folk about their history. I know if some non-Jew lectured me, a matrilineal Jew, about my mom's people's history I would be really upset.

[SMC22307]

256. Why so easily offended?

Of course, the operative word is "lecture," but I wouldn't be so arrogant as to think I knew everything about X or Y history. I'd be open to learning more.

[Cha]

79. Jury Results.. Brawawaaaa..

Stockholm Syndrome.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=867923

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

It's clear this poster(and a couple others) are only in this thread to disrupt and be rude.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Dec 2, 2015, 06:49 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "Be rude"? It's the OP who's beyond "rude" when he accuses anyone who's not in the BS fan club of having Stockholm Syndrome.

Deal with it.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Leave it be. signed: undecided that is being pushed away from BS due to people like the OP.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Another fail alert

[SusanCalvin]

105. Charter member

of Juror #3 and Juror #4 fan club!



(No, I wasn't Juror #4. But I wish I was.)

[Cha]

130. Thank you, Susan.

[merrily]

207. Please see Reply 205.

[Cheese Sandwich]

12. You can’t have capitalism without racism -Malcom X

it’s impossible for a white person today to believe in capitalism and not believe in racism. You can’t have capitalism without racism. And if you find a person without racism and you happen to get that person into conversation and they have a philosophy that makes you sure they don’t have this racism in their outlook, usually they’re socialists or their political Philosophy is socialism.”

source

[WillyT]

13. Thank You For That !!!

[Mnpaul]

25. I saw something similar posted elsewhere

capitalism requires a permanent underclass. I saw cons struggle with this fact. Our current system aims to make that underclass even larger.

[Bread and Circus]

35. Interesting but I don't agree.

Last edited Thu Dec 3, 2015, 12:45 AM - Edit history (1)

Personally I think nearly everyone is racist down to their core as I think tribalism and in-group out-group bias is a fundamental part of the human psyche.

The sooner we all recognize that this darkness exists in nearly all of us the sooner we can actually mitigate it.

[Cheese Sandwich]

40. Racism as a psychological problem vs. Racism as a system of social control

Two different meanings of the word racism. Two different ways of understanding the problem. I guess they can overlap though.

[Bread and Circus]

42. Do you agree racism is inherent to the human mind?

[bravenak]

52. It is damn sure prevalent all over america.

Even many of those who swear they are not, damn sure are. I watch people hound blacks and say obnoxious racist stuff just to be comforted and told they are the REAL VICTIM.

[Bread and Circus]

142. I think you are just as guilty as anyone. On edit, not anyone. I am sure there are more racist...

people than you.

But the odds are you are about as racist as the average human being.

[bravenak]

143. Don't care.

[Bread and Circus]

145. Then you agree but don't care? That's what it sounds like.

[bravenak]

148. Don't care what you think.

[Cheese Sandwich]

63. A little bit, but more of it is because of social structures and learned behavior.

[Bread and Circus]

70. Well all evidence points to the fact that humans are fundamentally built for racism...

but how it manisfests is a learned phenomenon due to social factors.

But to mitigate it, reduce it, and overcome it you have to understand it. To understand how it lives in all of us as a dark seed.

So when Malcolm X says what he says it does wash with me because he infers he is somehow not racist or there are somehow groups of people that are not racist or that racism and democratic socialism can't go together. I just do not agree with all of his conclusions.

[Cheese Sandwich]

74. In my understanding socialism is anti-racist

Socialists try to fight against racism, sexism and other forms of bigotry because we want everyone to thrive and live well in the community. Of course it's more than that but that is sort of a basic feature.

[Bread and Circus]

76. That is the kind of democratic socialism I would promote as well.

[Kind of Blue]

223. Please provide the links to at least some

of your evidence. Seriously, I cannot find anywhere that all evidence points to the fact that humans are fundamentally built for racism. Where has this been repeatedly scientifically concluded?

[Kind of Blue]

263. Since you've chosen to respond with a PM

I choose to reply in the AA group using your PM title. You've got permission to reply there, if you choose. And please don't send me anymore response PMs.Thanks!

[Rebkeh]

144. No

I think it's learned. Categorizing and forming in/out groups may be somewhat natural but not to the degree in which we do it.

It's one thing to form tribes, but placing superior/inferior values on said tribes is a whole 'nother banana.

We choose to otherize each other and we choose the us/them bs.

I know you weren't asking me specifically but I had to counter your point. Supremacy of a group over another is not inherent at all. Collectively, we have swallowed the lie that one cannot be 'up' unless another is 'down.'

This applies to both systemic and psychological racism.

[Bread and Circus]

151. I guess we will have to agree to disagree because...

I do think there are forms of racism in all countries, in all quarters of the earth, at all points in time. It occurs in all cultures, groups, and comes from all colors.

No part of the world or human history is not poisoned by it.

To act like it's just something we can learn and then supposedly "unlearn" is to ignore biology and history. I think it makes mitigating racism harder.

You can't fix a problem you don't recognize.

My argument is not to excuse this bad part of human nature but to highlight the fact it exists in all of us and we can either embrace it or fight it.

Human beings are an awesome species in many ways but we have some really nefarious biological traits.

To act as if someone or some group is not racist is sort of racist in itself because that is basically saying that group is somehow better than the rest.

What could be fair to say is that African Americans have suffered the worst in this country as a result of racism, maybe Native Americans too (I am not sure you can really score such a thing). Does that give them some sort of special immunity? Maybe? I don't know. I think it should certainly garner particular empathy. But being empathetic toward disenfranchised groups, while noble, does not mean the biological factors that create racism aren't still buried within all of us.

I know what I espouse is not popular because it's an uncomfortable concept. Also racism, isn't just a person to person thing, as there is a lot to it (economic, system, social oppression, etc.) On that score, racism as a system of beliefs and practices are not necessary to the human experience and must be fought at all times steadfastly. But I think we would all get further along in this regard if we all admitted our bad side. I just don't think you can fix something unless everyone is approaching it honestly.

[Rebkeh]

165. I disagree that it is inherent

I also don't understand how racism is biological. Huh? That doesn't make any sense at all. From what organ is racism produced? It's psychological, yes, but it is learned.

It's true it is widespread, global and deeply embedded, but that doesn't mean it's inherent.

I agree, however, that we all have to agree to overcome it, which is a long, slow process. But it's ultimately a choice. If it is inherent, why bother then?

[Kind of Blue]

222. I'm waiting a response for the racism organ or

at least the racism gene, too.

[merrily]

209. I think it's both. When food was so very hard to come by, people must have been reluctant to feed

the "useless eaters" of their own clans and tribes, let along strangers trying to take it from them by force.

I think some of it got hard-wired in the days of Neanderthals and whatever the hell the rest of us are.

It's not necessarily even only racism. It's ethnocentrism, us vs. them, us vs. the other. Irish, Italians and Jews got treated badly, including by the KKK, and they were white.

[Rebkeh]

248. That's not inherent though, it's taught/learned

How can it be both inherent and not inherent?

Do you mean it's nature and nurture? Affinity for people like yourself is not the same thing as believing in your superiority over others not like yourself.

"Useless eaters" is a concept we have been taught, it is not natural. It's not hard wired, it's just a habit and we've been too lazy (just being honest) to overcome it**. We know better, we always have.

It comes down to 'survival of the fittest' vs. 'success of the most cooperative'. History is clear about which is better.

**On second thought, I shouldn't say lazy. We are too scared. Identities can be comfort zones and stepping out of them is hard. And scary.

[hopemountain]

126. bread and circus ~

"The sooner we all recognize this darkness exists in nearly all of us the sooner we can actually mitigate it."
"But to mitigate it, reduce it, and overcome it you have to understand it. To understand how it lives in all of us as a dark seed."

it is interesting to me that you use the word "darkness" or "dark seed" to describe the bias of classicism and racism. let us begin here to acknowledge that darkness of skin color is indeed a basis for classicism and racism. just ask any person who is darker than the majority population.

it may be a separate issue or conversation from the intent of this thread - but i did want to sensitize you to your choice of a descriptor. as a woman of color, i am particularly sensitive to this form of classicism, racism and bias. the forms can be outright in your face or subtle. but, they are there.

in a good way, hopemountain.

[Bread and Circus]

129. What are you getting at exactly?

[hopemountain]

250. i'm sorry you did not understand

what i was pointing out about the use / your choice of descriptors. be aware of your metaphors.

[Nyan]

166. That's why Malcom X is one of the greatest American thinkers

As far as I know, Dr. King's ideological evolution was greatly influenced by him.

[bravenak]

19. I very much have Stockholm Syndrome. Sadly.

[WillyT]

20. No... You Just Have An Overwhelming Desire To Elect Hillary Clinton President...

[bravenak]

24. People have been very nasty to my demographic.

I am helping her to prevent these nasty people from getting what they want. After the way they treated every black person I know on here, treated me, treated BLM, follow and harass, I do not want them happy on Super Tuesday. I thank Hillary for being in the race to give me another option.
I cannot wait until these nasty individuals wake up this spring to Hillary as our nominee and can then not spread their bile anymore. I hope they enjoy their aggressive nastiness and paternalism and ignorant behaiviours now because the time is coming when they will be wearing out their weeping shrouds and hoarding smelling salts.

[leftofcool]

27. I heard through the grapevine that it will be before Super Tuesday.

Just sayin'

[bravenak]

29. I think so too. I heard that it's pretty much over. The losing party just has to break the news to

his fans.

[zeemike]

59. Sounds like you expect a coup of democracy.

Well that does not surprise me, that is the wish of a lot of people.
And if it comes money will win...so if you love it be on the side of money.

[bravenak]

60. I prefer the side that does not say nasty stuff to every black person I know.

[zeemike]

67. And what side would that be?

Or do you consider opinions that differ from yours as nasty stuff?

What a sense of entitlement.

[bravenak]

68. Oh yes. The black woman is entitled compared to you.

Very strange ideas.

[zeemike]

71. Well you are entitled to be as combative and dismissive as you want to

And have been in every encounter I have had with you. And you seem to hide behind that gender/race demographic pretty well.

But it is not strange to me...I have seen it all before.

[bravenak]

73. If you call me entitled without knowing one damn thing about me, I get combative.

To me that is a nasty slur coming from someone in the more Entitled demographic. Plus since I'm not only black but poor, it gets to be quite stupid as well. Wealthier white men calling me entitled makes my eyes open up real real wide.

[zeemike]

99. And you don't know one damn thing about me.

And you don't ever ask because you don't care...and frankly I would never reveal myself to someone who expresses your contempt for me just because I challenge you.

But I will tell you this, I am poorer than you by far, and have not had the entitled comfortable life you seem to think I have...I know what it is like to be hungry and cold and homeless...and have had it many more years than you have.

Just stop being so combative and you could see things differently.

[bravenak]

109. You cannot be poorer than me.

You would need to go back in time to be as poor as I have been. I did not have electric until I started school. Please.
Just you being the gender and race you are gives you entitlement beyond my wildest DREAMS. I would trade places with you, but you would be insane to trade with me.
If you stop calling poor black women with disabled kids 'entitled' you might see what you have been oblivious to for so long. You know nothing about me zeemike, nothing.

[zeemike]

117. And you know nothing about me.

And I suspect you want it that way so you can believe you are more persecuted than I am.
But I am not going to make this a competition of who had it worse, but there are things far worse than not having electricity.
Like not having a home at all and no family to count on, and living on the streets of a big city by your wits alone...And having the experience of having black people look out for that poor white kid and keep him out of trouble.

But see me as the enemy if you want, but it hurts only you and any cause you aline with.

[bravenak]

124. I lived in the streets of Hollywood and slept on the Redline, and what?

If you call black folks entitled you get what you get. You are talking to a person with NO PRIVILEGE beyond the gift of intelligence. A person who spent nights walking the streets of Hollywood and sleeping in abandos. Whose family could not help if they could drop the crack pipe long enough to notice. A person who lost many in drive bys and to aids and to prostitution, drug overdoses and suicide. A person who lost children of their own. To say I am privileged is to KNOW NOTHING of the black experience. I rise and strive regardless of being born on a bad sign or a garbage heap.
You know nothing of it. Yet you think it is a privileged life. Blindness reigns.

[zeemike]

128. Well it was you that accused me of being privileged

Not me that accused you of it...I said you have the entitlement of using your race/gender as a shield here on DU because you know you will be protected...DU is a safe space for your race/gender.
And you have the advantage here because old/white/men do not get that consideration.
You can berate me all you want and no one will alert on it.

But you would think you would have some empathy with me sense we shared an equally bad youth...though mine was in the 50s when segregation was a thing for sure and there were fewer ways to get out of it.

[bravenak]

131. You said it. I responded. You were wrong.

Period. I am female and that makes it ten times as hard and very dangerous. And I got my lumps. From MEN, white black and other.

White men run the damn world. With MANY, The second their ideas are discarded or confronted , they start complaining about others being 'protected' and act abused because their ideas are not going to be the way of the world any longer; they have to share the platform now and allow US space since they have had ALL OF THE SPACE since the founding of this nation and before.

To feel a connection to a person you would have to think they had one iota of respect for people like yourself. I do not feel that way. At all.

This is not berating you. This is letting you know some things that you obviously did not know. Might be good for you to learn from this experience and not get to the point where you ever call a black woman 'entitled' without knowing one thing about her.

When I watch white men play oppression olympics with black women my skin crawls and visions of magnolias and picnics and other strange fruit start coming into my head.


Oh, and BTW... I am EXACTLY like this in person and would tell it to you in a lounge, a car, a mall, a porch, Walmart, the lunch room, in class, at yr house, in a meeting, at the polls, at the beach, on the street.

[zeemike]

135. Well I am exactly like this in person too.

And it is time to end this because from previous experiences and what you say, I know the anger will be ratcheted up no matter what I say.
It seems to be your thing. And I suppose the outcome you are looking for is me to get as angry as you seem to be and then you or others, can alert and I will get a hide.

I can see no other reason for that last sentence.

[bravenak]

136. Not angry. I am just right.

Cya.

[zeemike]

139. Self righteous anger.

by

[bravenak]

140. There you go. Proving my point.

[okasha]

149. He thinks you're getting uppity, sistah.

[bravenak]

150. I can dig it.

Too bad for him I like being uppity and arrogant.

[wildeyed]

111. You are good at it too.

The combative part. I am taking notes on how to do it without getting posts hidden

[bravenak]

113. I do what needs done for sure.

[WillyT]

28. Well... At Least You're Honest...

[leftofcool]

22. And sadly, they still don't get it.

[bravenak]

26. They never will until they are weeping rageful tears of defeat.

[WillyT]

30. And Then They Will Be... "weeping rageful tears of defeat." - Way To GOTV

[bravenak]

32. Get out the vote for my team, yeeeessss!

Defeat them HillaryWarriors!!! We can win!! We will win!
https://m.

[MeNMyVolt]

33. To put this as mildly as I can, Martin's words won't rehabilitate your reputation on DU.

Maybe try listening for a bit. You're a smart guy. Grow from the experience. I'm just as old, and just as white as you are, and I've found that listening lets you learn things you thought you already knew, but really didn't. It's liberating.

[WillyT]

38. I Do Not Need... YOUR "Rehabilitation"...

Welcome to DU.

[Enthusiast]

182. You don't need any kind of rehabilitation, WillyT.

[Bread and Circus]

41. Spare us the "listening" crap for godsakes.

[MeNMyVolt]

46. Try it, you might like it. Makes one feel a bit younger.

[link:|

[Bread and Circus]

48. I don't take it as an earnest suggestion. It is sanctimonious crap and you know it.

[MeNMyVolt]

51. OK. Really, I wasn't trying to be sanctimonious...

... just sharing something I learned in the last couple of years.

Good wishes to you and yours.

[Bread and Circus]

53. well maybe you should "listen" to yourself then.

[virtualobserver]

55. "listening" to the words of MLK that are in this op, might be a good place to start

but they are talking about "Hillary style" listening......which involves YOU listening to THEM.

[Bread and Circus]

58. exactly. that's why I called it out as th disingenuous crap that it is.

[bravenak]

54. You were right. Period.

[Kalidurga]

153. Well it's nicer than saying sit down and shut up

[Bread and Circus]

154. I would rather hear that. Let's keep it 100.

[Kalidurga]

157. It would be more honest

[jeff47]

64. That's right! A two-week-old poster TOTALLY understands how reputations on DU work. (nt)

[merrily]

208. Has been reading here daily for years, just like every "newbie" who boldly insults longtime DUers.

[Duval]

97. He has a good reputation IMHO eom

[leftofcool]

184. LMAO

[leftofcool]

185. Good post.

[bravenak]

37. Umm hmm

https://m.

[WillyT]

39. Oh Yeah... They Were Known As The OJ's...

Backstabbers...

Money Money Money...

You should feel the vibe.

[bravenak]

43. YOU should see my point.

https://m.

[brush]

231. Correx: "For the Love of Money", not "Money, Money, Money".

[jalan48]

56. Democratic Socialism sounds like a good thing to me.

I'm proud to stand with MLK on this one.

[dpatbrown]

246. Very good discussion

I've enjoyed it very much.

Let me give my two cents. I was a college student in the 60s, and there were two thoughts concerning how to achieve democratic socialism. Malcom X was critical of Dr. King because he believed Dr. King wanted to move to slow. Malcom X wasn't willing to wait long, he wanted to see progress being made. As an activist back then, progressives were much more supportive of Malcom X (me included).

[jalan48]

247. Yes, the Black Panthers too.

Angela Davis was very eloquent but nothing like MLK. It was a crazy time back then with the war going on and the TV broadcasting it each night to our living room. It's much more controlled now-embedded reporters I think was the term used when Bush started the Iraq war.

[dpatbrown]

253. Hi jalan48

A "crazy time", I certainly agree. And since you mentioned Angela Davis (who I also supported), my son, when going to UC Santa Cruz, had her as one of his sociology professors.

[jalan48]

254. Hi dpabrown.

I saw her speak at my college in Seattle in 68 or 69. At that time I had no idea the Black Panthers had started school food programs for kids in Oakland. All I heard from the media was militant. From what I've read Hoover sabotaged their efforts by flooding the inner cities with cheap heroin, destabilizing the community building they were attempting to do.

[Thespian2]

57. Huge K & R !!!

[abelenkpe]

62. Wow WillyT

Someone who has been here for two weeks finds this post so offensive they needed to lecture you about your reputation.

[JTFrog]

100. Well fuckin deserved. n/t

[leftofcool]

187. There are archives. Easy to read.

[Juicy_Bellows]

69. K&R

[The Blue Traveller]

89. Kicked and recommended

[Duval]

90. Alll right, WillyT!

That should put an end to some of the bizarre comments! At least, I sure hope so. Great post!

[MaggieD]

93. MLK was NOT a democratic socialist

Please stop with this crap. Rewriting history is not something we liberals do.

[TBF]

103. Actually flat out socialist by the time we are in 1965

and he is giving a speech at the Ebenezer Baptist Church, Atlanta, Georgia July 4, 1965). By this time MLK was not only talking about race but also class.

“The American Dream"**

< snip >

Now that doesn’t only apply on the race issue, it applies on the class question. You know, sometimes a class system can be as vicious and evil as a system based on racial injustice. (Yes, sir) When we say, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal," and when we live it out, we know as I say so often that the "no D." is as significant as the "Ph.D." And the man who has been to "No House" is as significant as the man who’s been to Morehouse. (Make it plain today) We build our little class systems, and you know you got a lot of Negroes with classism in their veins. (Sure) You know that they don’t want to be bothered with certain other Negroes and they try to separate themselves from them. (Amen)

I remember when I was in theological school, and we were coming to the end of our years there, a classmate—he came to me to talk with me—said that he wanted to invite his mother up. And she’d struggled in order to help him get through school. He wanted to invite his mother up, but he said, "You know, the problem is I don’t know if she would quite fit in this atmosphere. You know, her verbs aren’t quite right; and she doesn’t know how to dress too well; she lives in a rural area." And I wanted to say to him so bad that you aren’t fit to finish this school. (Yes) If you cannot acknowledge your mother, if you cannot acknowledge your brothers and sisters, even if they have not risen to the heights of educational attainment, then you aren’t fit (Have mercy) to go out and try to preach to men and women. (Amen)

Oh, I’ll tell you this morning, and you learn this and you discover the meaning of "God’s image." You’ll know what the New Testament means when it says that "I revealed it to babes and so often withheld it from the wise." And I have learned a great deal in my few years, not only from the philosophers that I have studied with in the universities, not only from the theologians and the psychologists and the historians, but so often from that humble human being who didn’t have the opportunity to get an education but who had something basic deep down within. (Yes) Sometimes Aunt Jane on her knees can get more truth than the philosopher on his tiptoes. (Yes, Amen) And this is what "all men are made in the image of God" tells us. We must believe this and we must live by it. (Yes)

This is why we must join the war against poverty (Yes, sir) and believe in the dignity of all work. What makes a job menial? I’m tired of this stuff about menial labor. What makes it menial is that we don’t pay folk anything. (Yes, sir) Give somebody a job and pay them some money so they can live and educate their children and buy a home and have the basic necessities of life. And no matter what the job is it takes on dignity ...

http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/documentsentry/doc_the_american_dream/

[MaggieD]

106. Again, MLK was not a democratic socialist

The ability of people to fantasize history is literally amazing. You can actually learn it instead, which I would recommend.

And since you buy into it Bernie is happy to tell you he is the second coming of Jesus, MLK, and the Pope rolled into one. LOL! I guess it frustrates you that the folks that know MLK's history the best won't even consider Bernie. Am I right?

[bravenak]

110. Nobody in my demographic believes that nonsense even if Killer Mike and

Tupac came and told them so. Jesus could say it and they might start looking at Muhammed like "Maybe we should follow this guy instead."

[MaggieD]

115. I'm not black

And I do not ever deign to speak for people that are, because it annoys me when straight people pretend to know my demographic or the issues I have faced in my life. But I will tell you I don't personally know a single black person who thinks Bernie has even a basic understanding of their issues.

And that is all I will say about that.

[bravenak]

127. You must know many like myself then. Umm hmm.

I have no idea where peopke are getting their ideas about us. Not from us for sure.

[MaggieD]

133. I do

I tried to build relationships with the AA community in my work as an LGBT activist. They are an awesome voting block and very politically influential with Dem pols. So initially it was self serving.

But I got more from them then they ever gave to me. I never understood the concept of white privilege until I had the real world privilege of working with AA activists and had to understand their experiences if I ever hoped for them to understand mine. And to this day I credit them for helping me evolve from a dumb white liberal into an actual liberal. That was 16 years ago. I am grateful beyond belief.

[bravenak]

134. Awesome. I like your posts.

I like how you listen first and actually think about stuff.

[MaggieD]

152. I like yours too

Nobody gets a point across so well with so few words as you do on DU. Nobody. I wish I had that talent. And as I have posted before, I would feel that way no matter who you supported.

But thank you for the compliment. It means a hell of a lot coming from you.

[bravenak]

156. Thank you!

I was thinking about trying to get my points out via emojis but it did not have one for patronizing.

[MaggieD]

158. LOL - okay, that's what I'm talking about

You rock.

[bravenak]

161. .

U too!

[leftofcool]

186. Plus another.

[TBF]

138. Do you know what the word socialist means?

"I guess it frustrates you that the folks that know MLK's history the best won't even consider Bernie. Am I right?" How in the world can you make such an assumption? Since you do not even know the meaning of the word socialism, how can you pretend to understand anything MLK was talking about?

Smh.

[MaggieD]

146. No of course not...

I'm an idiot with Stockholm syndrome, just like Willy said.

Let me get real with you - have you ever converted a supporter by saying they are stupid? Are you that politically naïve to think that tactic is effective? I am the author of over 200 magazine articles; I have an advanced degree; pols come to me for advice on healthcare issues; I helped pass LGBT equality in my state and sat on the board of a national LGBT political advocacy org; and I have owned a successful (very liberal business) for over 25 years. And you read my OP.

Do you really want to go with the theory that I'm so stupid I don't know what the term socialist means?

Bernie's supporters are his own worst enemy. Have a nice evening.

[brush]

233. You tell 'em, MaggieD

I too don't get how some Sanders supporters think insulting peoples' intelligence is going to win them over to support him.

Like understanding what the term "Stockholm Syndrome" and the word "socialism" means requires brain surgery-like . . . er, ahh . . . rocket science-like intelligence. (Unfortunately we all know what Ben Carson has done to the reps of brain surgeons).

[SusanCalvin]

259. Thank you.

[Vattel]

119. Wow, thanks for that.

"What makes a job menial? I’m tired of this stuff about menial labor. What makes it menial is that we don’t pay folk anything. (Yes, sir) Give somebody a job and pay them some money so they can live and educate their children and buy a home and have the basic necessities of life. And no matter what the job is it takes on dignity ..."

Awesome stuff. His words could definitely fork lightning.

[Cheese Sandwich]

107. "I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic

I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic... (Capitalism) started out with a noble and high motive... but like most human systems it fell victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today capitalism has out-lived its usefulness. (Letter to Coretta Scott, July 18, 1952)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/obery-m-hendricks-jr-phd/the-uncompromising-anti-capitalism-of-martin-luther-king-jr_b_4629609.html

[MaggieD]

118. How is the "Bernie is the second coming of MLK" meme working?

I can tell you I fully reject his bullshit they he was some kind of champion for my people (LGBT). In fact, most of us seem mightily offended that he is pretending to be some champion for us that he definitely was not.

Personally, I think MLK would roll over in his grave to find someone who couldn't even be bothered to read the DOJ Ferguson report to be claiming he was the next MLK. It is no surprise to me, whatsoever that AA voters take a huge pass on Bernie.

Contrary to popular belief they are some of the most sophisticated voters in the country, and they don't have "Stockholm Syndrome" as Bernie supporters like to claim they do.

[Cheese Sandwich]

121. How's the "Hillary is the second coming of Rosa Parks" meme working?

LOL at your changing the subject from MLK and socialism.

[Cheese Sandwich]

116. "The Uncompromising Anti-Capitalism of Martin Luther King Jr." by Obery M. Hendricks, Jr., Ph.D.

How can the inherent structural injustice of capitalism be addressed? For King the answer was democratic socialism. An aide recalled that at a meeting with his SCLC staff in the mid-1960s, King "talked about the fact that he didn't believe that capitalism as it as constructed could meet the needs of poor people, and that what we might need to look at was a kind of socialism, but a democratic form of socialism." In a 1966 speech to his staff, King explained:

We are saying that something is wrong ... with capitalism.... There must be better distribution of wealth and maybe America must move toward a democratic socialism. Call it what you may, call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all of God's children.

Although King specifically advocated for democratic socialism as the ameliorator of the vast chasm between rich and poor, it is clear that his primary interest was not in democratic socialism or in any ideology for its own sake. His concern was for poor people's needs to be addressed, for all to have equal opportunities to thrive, for workers to have democratic rights in the workplace. Under capitalism, workers as citizens have political rights, but as workers they have virtually no rights or say-so about their working conditions, hours, wages, etc. Corporate capitalists now even enforce control over what workers can say and do outside the workplace. For example, until the National Labor Relations Board recently stepped in, the Koch brothers-owned Georgia Pacific Corporation could terminate its workers if they shared information on social media about their own wages, hours and conditions of employment. The extent of corporate capitalists' control of American workers' lives and space indicates a virtual state of neo-feudalism in the American workplace.

Nevertheless, although he favored democratic socialism, King's allegiance was to whatever form of political economy could ameliorate the vast chasm between rich and poor. What was non-negotiable for him, however, was democracy. That is why in King's democratic socialism the emphasis is on democratic, meaning that he not only understood but also affirmed that the changes he sought should be democratically decided by popular vote. Thus his notion of democratic socialism entailed nothing that in any way can be construed as anti-democratic. Because of his faith in the ethic of egalitarian justice, King had no tolerance for communism or any other kind of authoritarianism. This he reiterated numerous times in his career. For King, democratic socialism was more of a perspective, a worldview, an approach to human society that was based upon humane, mutually cooperative economic relations -- the very antithesis of capitalism's dog-eat-dog competition and its valorization of greed and selfish individualism that routinely crushes anything standing in the way of corporate profits.

In other words, what King wanted was deeper democracy. In a speech to a retail union in 1962 he declared, "I believe that we can work within the framework of our democracy to make for a better distribution of wealth." This echoed the belief in democracy that he publicly asserted as early as 1955, in his first address to the Montgomery Improvement Association: "We are here also because of our love for democracy and because of our deep-seated belief that democracy transformed from thin paper to thick action is the greatest form of government on earth."

Yes, King wanted democracy, more democracy, but he wasn't willing to leave the important task of achieving economic democracy to ad hoc laws and piecemeal policies. "For years I labored with the idea of reforming the existing institutions of society," he said, through "a little change here and a little change there, but now I feel differently. You have to have a reconstruction of the entire society, a revolution of values."
...

more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/obery-m-hendricks-jr-phd/the-uncompromising-anti-capitalism-of-martin-luther-king-jr_b_4629609.html

[jalan48]

123. Thank you. Dr. King understood how deeply unfair the capitalist system is.

He began to speak more and more on this issue as well as the inherent racist nature of the Vietnam War toward the end of his life.

[TBF]

94. Couldn't say it better myself. nt

[AzDar]

95. K & R

[marym625]

122. K&R!

#FeelTheBern #Bernie2016

[bravenak]

141. I swear when I see you plus one this stuff my mouth drops open.

No need to respond. I was straight up offended by that Stockholm Stuff and here y'all go just a praising and praising. After the primary, I know for a fact that folks are gonna feel terrible about the stuff they supported.
All this does is push more blacks away from Bernie. I actually wanted him to win. But look at this... My god the things you learn about folks. I'm glad I just go ahead and say what I think and fail to pretend. I send tweets and messages telling EXACTLY who I am. But some are sneaky. They hide who they realky are until you step back and do not say anything to them for a while. You watch them. See who they are, what they are for, what they say.

I am glad this all happened the way it did.

[marym625]

164. What are you talking about?

What exactly is wrong with kicking and rec'ing a post with a quote and a story from a great man?

Are you implying I'm not being honest about who I am? I'm probably the most transparent person on du. And I haven't changed ideas, philosophy or tried to disingenuously engaged with people.

[merrily]

214. +1 Sincere, transparent is all I've ever seen from you, marym625--and that's a lot more than I can

say about every poster on DU.

[bravenak]

238. This thread and all of his MLK threads are merely a continuation and a double down of his

Stockholm Syndrome thread. As long as he keeps that thread up, htf can anybody pretend this is merely quoting a great man? He PROMISED me he would double and triple down on his- stuff.
All this does is just egg him on.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=870707

[MannyGoldstein]

225. Think about this.

Is this what you really want?

[bravenak]

243. What? Is what what I want?

Honesty and integrity? People who say what they mean not play stupid games and make constant swipes at the black community? People to not rewirite history in favor of their ideology? For people to stop pretending MLK was this feel good race consoler rather than the BLACK REVOLUTIONARY he was? For them to stop erasing his fight for racial equality in favor of this 'he fought the oligarchy so they killed him' fantasy? For them to stop acting like the real fight was against the oligarchy like our racial struggles are nothing in comparison and already finished and done? Yeah. That's what I want. Will it happen? Hell no.
People are going to co opt and steal the legacy of black americans in order to give themselves ownership over our history without any damn recognition of how fake and pathetic it is to force themselves in somewhere and into something that was not done for them or by them for the most part. They will give themselves a staring role in the history of blacks as the benefactor and the saviour, roles they never ever ever played in real life. They will tell themselves the little changes do not matter, and THEY DON'T - to them. To us, it is straight up theft, erasure, and the need to center themselves in a position of prominence no matter who they have to piss off and disgust to do it. And with the force of numbers they have gotten their way. Not around me though. I am a black revolutionary thinker too. And i abhor the misuse of the black peoples struggle and legacy to prop up a candidate, and I resent the effort to tell us we have no place being disgusted and enraged.

Enjoy this. It is nasty and it will not be a winning effort. But it will be remembered.

[Autumn]

132. He was right. He was always right.

Thank you Willy

[one_voice]

147. Trevor Loudon...

editor of Keywiki--that's your source.

Let's take a look at this fella shall we...

Beliefs

He describes himself as "[Believing] in freedom with responsibility, not freedom from responsibility. My ideal society is one in which government is slashed to the bone and people are free to reach their potential." In addition to his libertarian economic views he is strongly anti-communist, in a 2006 post to his blog (see below) he stated "Socialism, is in short a manifestation of mental illness or major character deficiency."[16] he has also stated a belief that communists are responsible for "supplying much of the world's illegal drugs," although he supports drug legalisation (while being personally against drug use).[17] He is a self-described "student" of the Zenith Applied Philosophy. In 2006 he wrote on his blog "I have studied at Z.A.P. from 1976 to 1982, 1986/7 and 1999 to current. I am enjoying my studies immensely at the moment and plan to continue indefinitely."[18]

Background

Trevor Loudon has been involved in politics in Christchurch for many years, most notably the Campaign for a Soviet Free New Zealand (CFSFNZ)[3] a group which published dossiers on people involved in the anti-nuclear movement, declaring them to be communists and "connecting the dots" between them and their supposed Soviet masters.[4] Loudon established the Campaign for a Soviet-Free New Zealand in June 1986 to expose 'Soviet/Marxist subversion' in New Zealand.[5] Loudon argued that the New Zealand government should cease all diplomatic and trading relations with the Soviet Union on the grounds that it was a hostile, totalitarian dictatorship seeking world dominance. The group most notably advocated a ban on the importing of Soviet Nova and Lada cars on the grounds that they had been built through slave labour.[5][3] Other activities carried out by the CFSFNZ included staging protests, collecting information on the Labour Party and left-wing groups, and circulating pamphlets in Christchurch during the 1987 New Zealand general elections which attacked the Fourth Labour Government and local Christchurch-based Members of Parliament Mike Moore and Geoffrey Palmer.[6][7][8][9]

Allegations about political figures

Loudon maintains a prolific and controversial blog entitled New Zeal. Many of his posts make allegations about the backgrounds of political opponents whom he sees as "menace[s] to liberty," often tying them to communist activity. Favourite subjects for attack are Green Party ex-MPs Russel Norman[19] and Keith Locke, as well as academics he views as left-wing, posts about whom are titled "Socialist Academic Profile". (S.A.P.)[20]

A series of posts he wrote on US presidential candidate Barack Obama[21] attracted the attention of the conservative US based Accuracy in Media organisation, who brought Loudon's accusations of Obama's communist connections to a wider audience.[22] Loudon's allegations even received coverage in The Washington Post, though the columnist stated that "The charges [against Obama] ranged from the absurd to the merely questionable".[23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Loudon

I'm pretty sure this guy and his page have ZERO love for MLK Jr. Next time you wanna quote MLK Jr. maybe you could site a source that actually believes in what you're quoting.

And yeah, the source matters here.

[nc4bo]

155. Found something really interesting, at least to me. IMHO, MLK's message evolved and more inclusive.

At least this is how it reads to me.

Your post had me up for a bit research while in the process, ran across this Huffpost (Black Voices) article from 2013 by Dion Rabouin (there's a few interesting links there) :

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dion-rabouin/martin-luther-king-capitalism_b_2506893.html and it all got me to thinking.

Only market capitalism solves the two major problems that face any economy - how to provide an incentive to innovate and how to solve the problem of decentralized information," said Prof. Gary Wolfman of Hillsdale College. "The reason there is so much innovation in a market system compared to socialism or other forms of central planning is that profit provides the incentive for innovators to take the risk needed to come up with new products."

Wolfman goes on to point out, "Over the last 100 years capitalism has reduced poverty more and increased life expectancy more than in the 100,000 years prior."

But capitalism doesn't work for the same reason Communism and socialism don't work -- capitalism ignores the fact that life is social. Perhaps more importantly than the existential crisis it creates is the economic crisis it inures.

MLK, Jr.
http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/documentsentry/where_do_we_go_from_here_delivered_at_the_11th_annual_sclc_convention/

I want to say to you as I move to my conclusion, as we talk about "Where do we go from here?" that we must honestly face the fact that the movement must address itself to the question of restructuring the whole of American society. (Yes) There are forty million poor people here, and one day we must ask the question, "Why are there forty million poor people in America?" And when you begin to ask that question, you are raising a question about the economic system, about a broader distribution of wealth. When you ask that question, you begin to question the capitalistic economy. (Yes) And I'm simply saying that more and more, we've got to begin to ask questions about the whole society. We are called upon to help the discouraged beggars in life's marketplace. (Yes) But one day we must come to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. (All right) It means that questions must be raised. And you see, my friends, when you deal with this you begin to ask the question, "Who owns the oil?" (Yes) You begin to ask the question, "Who owns the iron ore?" (Yes) You begin to ask the question, "Why is it that people have to pay water bills in a world that's two-thirds water?" (All right) These are words that must be said. (All right)

Now, don't think you have me in a bind today. I'm not talking about communism. What I'm talking about is far beyond communism. (Yeah) My inspiration didn't come from Karl Marx (Speak); my inspiration didn't come from Engels; my inspiration didn't come from Trotsky; my inspiration didn't come from Lenin. Yes, I read Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital a long time ago (Well), and I saw that maybe Marx didn't follow Hegel enough. (All right) He took his dialectics, but he left out his idealism and his spiritualism. And he went over to a German philosopher by the name of Feuerbach, and took his materialism and made it into a system that he called "dialectical materialism." (Speak) I have to reject that.

What I'm saying to you this morning is communism forgets that life is individual. (Yes) Capitalism forgets that life is social. (Yes, Go ahead) And the kingdom of brotherhood is found neither in the thesis of communism nor the antithesis of capitalism, but in a higher synthesis. (Speak) [applause] It is found in a higher synthesis (Come on) that combines the truths of both. (Yes) Now, when I say questioning the whole society, it means ultimately coming to see that the problem of racism, the problem of economic exploitation, and the problem of war are all tied together. (All right) These are the triple evils that are interrelated.

MLK, Jr.
http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/encyclopedia/enc_poor_peoples_campaign/|

Suggested to King by Marion Wright, director of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People’s Legal Defense and Education Fund in Jackson, Mississippi, the Poor People’s Campaign was seen by King as the next chapter in the struggle for genuine equality. Desegregation and the right to vote were essential, but King believed that African Americans and other minorities would never enter full citizenship until they had economic security. Through nonviolent direct action, King and SCLC hoped to focus the nation’s attention on economic inequality and poverty. ‘‘This is a highly significant event,’’ King told delegates at an early planning meeting, describing the campaign as ‘‘the beginning of a new co-operation, understanding, and a determination by poor people of all colors and backgrounds to assert and win their right to a decent life and respect for their culture and dignity’’ (SCLC, 15 March 1968). Many leaders of American Indian, Puerto Rican, Mexican American, and poor white communities pledged themselves to the Poor People’s Campaign.

I'm not the most eloquent person in the world, hell I can't even keep my dresser organized so I thought I'd lay this out there since it fits in with this post. Perhaps others would like to discuss it.

Furthermore, The Poor People's Campaign/Poor People's March was very much inclusive and focused on poverty across various demographics.

It's going to take ALL of us working together!

We're all perfectly capable of drawing our own conclusions.

[joshcryer]

169. Does anyone here care that the OP linked a far right fascist site?

[SidDithers]

195. I do, but then I don't expect much different from the seminal poster...nt

Sid

[joshcryer]

197. Oh you are just a goop.

Big whoop, no one gives a shit. Run analog, silly silly nincompoop.

[SidDithers]

260. Now, the Bernie supporters are concerned about sourcing...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251876759

Sid

[joshcryer]

261. I've always been against right wing sources.

But this op wasn't about supporting Sanders, it was about hurting AA posters here.

[SidDithers]

265. Sorry, I think my post came across as accusing you...

I, like you, have always been against right-wing sourcing. For years, I've gone back and forth with posters about their links and the authors they promote at DU.

What I was (badly) referencing by my comment was the poll thread about locking right-wing sources, started in response to a post attacking Bernie that linked to progressivestoday (?).

Many of the people castigating the poster for linking to that that right-wing site, are the same ones reccing this thread even though it links to keywiki.

Sorry if I was unclear.

Sid

[SoapBox]

173. Jury results...

On Wed Dec 2, 2015, 11:13 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Again... "In Front Of His Staff"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251867869

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

KeyWiki is a far right fascist site run by Trevor Loudon who believes, "Socialism, is in short a manifestation of mental illness or major character deficiency." I do not believe that site should be allowed to be shared on DU, especially when it's invoking MLK and when you go to the link you see a fundraiser for Trevor Loudon's fascist movie "The Enemies Within" which smears leftists to a degree that would make Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly blush. An actual fascist site.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Dec 2, 2015, 11:28 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Just another WillyT attack...don't like the article source, then argue it...I have no idea about the source and am not about to hide based on a few words in an alert. Leave it.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I am more concerned about the content that is posted than the source. The content that has been posted seems fine to me. Peace and Love.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not sure why the alert, unless the quote is inaccurate, but the alerter didn't say that.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree about links to that site.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[joshcryer]

175. I was the alerter. 4 jurors support allowing a fascist site being linked here.

Contragulations.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Just another WillyT attack...don't like the article source, then argue it...I have no idea about the source and am not about to hide based on a few words in an alert. Leave it.

The article source does not need arguing. Any non-fascist DUer would agree that it is a fascist site and does not belong on DU. If you do not have an idea about a source in an alert, then you should excuse yourself from jury duty. Voting to hide based on ignorance is not good.

It comes to my attention, after my alert, that WillyT has been told about the fascist connection of this site before. That he continues to use it is not an "attack."

Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I am more concerned about the content that is posted than the source. The content that has been posted seems fine to me. Peace and Love.

The content is good, but you can easily find MLK's position on redistribution and basic income in his book Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?, you don't have to link a fascist site to get that point across.

Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not sure why the alert, unless the quote is inaccurate, but the alerter didn't say that.

This is the reason for the alert, perhaps you should read the alert message next time:

KeyWiki is a far right fascist site run by Trevor Loudon who believes, "Socialism, is in short a manifestation of mental illness or major character deficiency." I do not believe that site should be allowed to be shared on DU, especially when it's invoking MLK and when you go to the link you see a fundraiser for Trevor Loudon's fascist movie "The Enemies Within" which smears leftists to a degree that would make Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly blush. An actual fascist site.

The quote is accurate, but you can link progressive sources: http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2014/01/20/3177871/martin-luther-king-radicalism/

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2013/01/21/martin-luther-king-was-radical-not-saint

Or even the source material: https://books.google.com/books?id=F7ljj_iyQcwC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87

Good job.

[deutsey]

181. I agree that it's a bad idea to direct traffic to that site

Just cut and paste the quotes, which are legitimate.

I do love, however, how the moron who created the site includes all this great, even inspiring material and thinks it's all so damning.

[magical thyme]

183. here is the quote with a more acceptable source.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2014/01/20/3177871/martin-luther-king-radicalism/

2... “You can’t talk about solving the economic problem of the Negro without talking about billions of dollars. You can’t talk about ending the slums without first saying profit must be taken out of slums,” he warned his staff in 1966. “You’re really tampering and getting on dangerous ground because you are messing with folk then. You are messing with captains of industry. Now this means that we are treading in difficult water, because it really means that we are saying that something is wrong with capitalism.”

[klook]

196. Thanks.

I had posted this same link below before realizing it was a dupe of your post.

When we use problematic sources for good quotes, we give our detractors easy ammunition with which to post diversionary potshots.

[joshcryer]

198. As if the OP didn't intentionally post...

...a literal fascist source.

[merrily]

211. bs

[1StrongBlackMan]

188. And for our daily installment of ...

Black Icon Misappropriation - DU style

[randome]

192. Oh, come on 1 (may I call you '1'?), can't you stop being so disagreeable long enough to learn...

...how to interpret black icons?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[1StrongBlackMan]

193. LOL ... No! n/t

[Uncle Joe]

212. How are Martin Luther King's words misappropriated, are most blacks in the billionaire class?

[merrily]

213. Only African Americans can quote Dr. King? Is that where we are now? How about Ghandi?

Dr. King took some of his ideas from him. Did Dr. King misappropriate? Can anyone not of Indian descent quote Ghandi, implement his ideas? Can only whites appreciate Emerson, from whom Ghandi got the idea for civil disobedience?

[randome]

216. Anyone can quote anyone.

OP is doing this to 'convince' minority groups that they're better off with his chosen candidate. That's an appropriation of a different sort.

In fact, OP has been so adamant about knowing how minority groups should vote, one might think he was suffering from a Syndrome of some sort.

Or still can't find his way out of that tavern he keeps talking about.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[MineralMan]

236. Well, see, it's important to inform our lessers about what's best

for them. How else would they be able to make decisions that benefit us in our collective privilege. It is the principle of noblesse oblige. It is always good for those who know best to impart their superior knowledge to the, shall we say, underclasses.

[Uncle Joe]

210. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, WillyT.

[merrily]

215. Thank you, WillyT, for reminding me of this quote.

[Babel_17]

219. K&R for the responses (all 218 of them)

Lol, no, the OP was more than enough for a rec!

[YoungDemCA]

241. Good to see white people lecturing black people about MLK

Really comes off well.

[Bobbie Jo]

245. Unbelievable.

No words beyond that.

[leftofcool]

258. A new lecture every day, sometimes two.

And by the usuals.

[left lowrider]

242. I am on the side of MLK and Bernie on this issue

I suspect most people are once you get past the sports team/celebrity mentality of the primaries and the DNC.

[WillyT]

262. Kick !!!

[Cali_Democrat]

266. Nice source you used there.....