2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBig-Name Plan B’s for Democrats Concerned About Hillary Clinton
Last edited Thu Sep 10, 2015, 10:05 AM - Edit history (1)
Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., Secretary of State John Kerry, Senator Elizabeth Warren, former Vice President Al Gore: Each has been discussed among party officials in recent weeks as an alternative to Mrs. Clinton if she does not regain her once-dominant standing in the 2016 presidential field and instead remains mired in the long-running email controversy, with its attendant investigations.
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If party leaders see a scenario next winter where Bernie Sanders has a real chance at the Democratic nomination, I think theres no question that leaders will reach out to Vice President Biden or Secretary of State Kerry or even Gore about entering the primaries, said Garnet F. Coleman, a Texas state lawmaker and Democratic national committeeman.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/10/us/politics/big-name-plan-bs-for-democrats-concerned-about-hillary-clinton.html
Proof that the "Democratic Party" want's ANYONE but Bernie. I hope this can convince some people that the Democratic party is NOT working for all Democrats, but only third-way corporatists and their mesmerized followers.
But Hillary supporters should be worried. Maybe it's time to side with the real progressive candidate?
Renew Deal
(81,877 posts)That's not the case. The only one from that list that is interesting to me is Warren, but I don't think she wants it.
Biden, Kerry, and Gore have all had their shot.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)I said the DNC is not working for all democrats, in other words, they are not treating all candidates equally and letting voters decide.
They are trying to rig it for Hillary.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)course other people have had their shot, too, and still seem to want another shot.
Renew Deal
(81,877 posts)Kerry wasn't electable in 2004 and isn't now.
Biden has lost twice and cannot win.
Gore has been out for too long, and the problems from 2000 are still there.
Hillary, O'Malley, Sanders are still relevant... for now.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I'd love to see Al Gore run- for a lot of reasons, he's smart as shit AND he understands that all our other problems become meaningless if we don't have a planet to live on- but I don't believe he's interested. If he were, I think he would be a completely different animal from 2000, but I don't see it happening.
that said, I'm getting to the point where I'm not terribly enthused about Hillary, either. Not given the absolutely craptastic campaign she's run so far.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The people who want Bernie most are the GOP. In the unlikely event that Hillary falters, Biden, Gore, or Kerry would make a fine plan B.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)If Bernie wins the nomination, he will win. No matter who is the nominee, the repubs are going to fail miserably.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I support Hillary because she's the only one running who I think can. If Obama had a secret twin brother, I would support Obama 2 instead, he was a much better candidate. But we don't have that option.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)If people would vote their conscience, instead of worrying about electability - Bernie would run away in a landslide, and we might actually get some positive change in this Oligarchy. Once the debates start, if they ever do, I think you'll see a much bigger shift towards Bernie. Maybe you can reassess his electability then. There are actually republicans voting for Bernie, and I doubt very much they would vote for HRC.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)There is, in fact, a GE coming, and if the GOP wins it, then it's all for nothing.
Also, concerns about electability are not self-fulfilling. The logic is flawed. There are two rounds to the election. The "voting their conscience" thing only affects the primary, not the general election. Sure, maybe if people ignored electability then Bernie might win the nomination, but after that he would still lose the general and we'd be stuck with the GOP.
And more Dems supporting Bernie will not change my electability concerns, because Dems aren't the ones I'm worried about. What I'm worried about are indies and Reps. I'm worried about the socialism label, the fact that he's further left than anyone who has ever won a large election outside of a few very blue states, the fact that the Koch brothers are going to spend $1B and Bernie has barely any fundraising capacity. Those are real concerns, whether you like them or not.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)I said that you shouldn't look at Hillary as being more electable than Bernie, because I think ultimately the case will be reversed in Bernie's favor.
Over 4 months before the first caucuses. If Bernie continues to gain support at the current rate, you may want to defer your decision until things shake out a bit. If this email thing actually turns out to be something bigger than HRC supporters think, she could sink like a lead balloon.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)If you think Bernie is more electable than Hillary, that's fine. Personally, I don't, and none of the arguments I've seen come close to convincing me of that. So basically, we support different candidates because we have different opinions on who is more likely to beat the GOP. Nothing very surprising about that, and it has nothing to do with self-fulfilling prophesies or voting conscience or anything else. Just a different political assessment of the American electorate.
It's true, if the email scandal or anything else really damages Hillary, that could make her much less electable. But it doesn't make Bernie any more electable. This is why people are starting to whisper about a plan B, Biden maybe, or even Gore or Kerry.
If Bernie wants to win the primary, he's going to need to convince people that he is electable. Because otherwise, it's gonna be Hillary, and if not her then Biden, and if not him, then someone else. And so far, by and large, he hasn't.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)They aren't whispering about a plan B because Bernie is not electable, it's because HE IS electable, and his election would go against their corporate and billionaire funders. Remember this is basically an oligarchy right now, and the powers that be (in both parties) want to keep it that way.
Secondly, you are basing your opinions on the present (which is a sane thing to do), but I am very confident that the downhill slide HRC is currently on vs. Bernie will continue, and after the debates increase in speed. But that remains to be seen.
Anywho, I appreciate your civil conversation, and as always, AOBAGOPF!!
(AOBAGOPF - anyone but a GOP freak)
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I don't buy the theory that a cabal of billionaire Democrats is worried that Bernie is going to take away their money. First off, he's obviously not -- maybe 1985 Bernie would have, but 2015 Bernie wants basically the same things as Hillary. And even if he wanted to "seize the means of production" or whatever, with congress, he wouldn't be able to.
What people are worried about is losing the presidency to the GOP. And there's a very good reason for worrying about that.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)Ignorant is also problematic when you are trying to have a civil discussion. Let me just say I think you are mis- or uninformed about what's going on in this country since 1980. And that is not me calling you names. I just wish more people understood the underlying problem that stops us from changing anything - it's the power base of corporations, lobbyists, and certain freely spending billionaires that have corrupted our politicians. Until that changes, nothing really changes.
Hillary is part of that cabal. Bernie is distinctly not. It has NOTHING to do with elect-ability, beyond the fact that the DNC does not want him to be President.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. In this case, the simplest explanation is that Dems rightfully think that nominating a socialist from a small liberal state who can't raise much money is tantamount forfeiting the election to the GOP. No shadowy cabal necessary. The corporatists you're talking about support the GOP, not the Dems. And if you look at what Dems stand for versus what the GOP stands for, it's obvious why.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)We agree to disagree, OK? I have to run, have a great day.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Cheers.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)I'll only say that you must have heard of the Koch brothers, Sheldon Adelson, SuperPAC's, and bad acting mega-corporations. That is one part of "they". The corporate and mainly republican owned and run mass media is another part of "they". It really is "them" against the rest of us. "They" do most of their dirty business through bribing corrupted politicians, and planting far-right court judges. "They" buy state governments. "They" created ALEC.
I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea...
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Not sure how this relates to your Hillary conspiracy theories.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)How they relate to Hillary? It relates to any Dem, but they're much more fearful of Bernie, which should be for obvious reasons.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)They aren't dumb, they know both that a socialist can't get elected, and also the difference between the GOP and Hillary is much, much bigger than the difference between Hillary and Bernie. I mean, for starters, if Hillary wins and gets to appoint a few justices, then Citizens United gets overturned and that's the end of the SuperPAC era.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)He's a Democratic Socialist, which is NOT a socialist. Most people can understand the difference. Secondly, there you go with your electability mantra, which is seemingly all you have, and quite premature. Have a nice... everything!
DanTex
(20,709 posts)various different types of socialism. And, yes, electability is key. What matters is putting a Dem in the White House, and this doesn't change simply because you choose to ignore electability.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)I'll bookmark this thread to be reviewed a week after the first Dem debate. Later!
Admiral Loinpresser
(3,859 posts)And this is while his name recognition is still low. His national net favorability rating continues to gain on that of HRC each month.
This is what far too many Business As Usual Democrats don't get. The American people want Bernie's platform, plain and simple.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)opposition his entire career. He's a self-described socialist, and once the GOP starts hitting him, he's toast. Nobody as far left as him has won anything significant outside of a few very liberal states. If people were clamoring for socialists, we'd have seen evidence of it before this.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)Admiral Loinpresser
(3,859 posts)HRC and Bernie.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Admiral Loinpresser
(3,859 posts)TPP, fracking, Keystone, $15 minimum wage, breaking up Wall Street, racial justice, LGBT rights, Iraq War, college tuition.
HRC's platform is meaningless. It is mostly generalities. Bernie's is much more specific. One questioner asked her about where she stood on an issue and Hillary said "I'll tell you when I'm president." I heard that with my own ears.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I'm probably slightly opposed, but I don't share the end-of-the-world thing with some people here.
As for the rest, in general, where Bernie is farther to the left, it won't make any difference because Hillary is already to the left of anything that will get through congress. For example, Hillary wants to raise the minimum wage, just not to $15. I think she's for $12, which would already be a historic high-point after inflation, and which still probably won't get through congress. And so on.
Admiral Loinpresser
(3,859 posts)for getting their programs through Congress?
DanTex
(20,709 posts)with big political battles. But honestly I think it will be tough for either one since the GOP is almost certain to hold on to the house.
Admiral Loinpresser
(3,859 posts)First he is electable, HRC is not. As nominee, he would have much bigger coattails. He is calling for post-inauguration marches on Washington as part of his strategy to get his platform passed.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I disagree about electability. I haven't seen any answer to how he shirks the socialist label in a country where 53% of the people won't consider voting for one, how someone further left than anyone who has won any significant election outside of a few blue states wins a national election, how his tiny fundraising is able to fire back against the Koch Brothers and all the money on the right, etc.
Sure, his crowds are impressive. But at the moment he's got the support of about 20-25% of the Democratic electorate. He's barely ahead of Biden who isn't even running. He gets large crowds because he has a clear ideology, in the same way that Ron Paul used to. Obviously, Bernie's ideology is better than Paul's, but getting a lot of like-minded people excited is different from gaining broad appeal.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)Hillary is losing her advantage every day. I haven't seen one lately, but I'm sure after the first debate, Bernie will be in the lead.
Isn't this another great day on DU!
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)And the contrast between H and B will not go unnoticed. You know, Dan, I'm sure we can go back and for all day today too, but I'd rather not. I understand your position. I don't agree with it, but that's my problem.
Have a great day, and a better weekend!
Samantha
(9,314 posts)They figured they could allow Bernie to continue to criticize Hillary in the hopes that he might land a punch or two. But Bernie is not punching; he is just sticking with the issues. And the fact that he has amassed such a base in such a short time has the GOP strategists starting to panic. Even some Republicans are looking at Bernie.
Sam
DanTex
(20,709 posts)They're loving it.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)like the contestants in Monty Python's "50 yard dash for people with no sense of direction." It's bedlam in the monkeyhouse over there.
0rganism
(23,971 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)But that is unquestionably what the repukes look like these days.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)Samantha
(9,314 posts)I just wrote a thread this morning saying much of the same thing in different words. The NY Times has not got anything on DU'ers, right?
Sam
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Really really wish he would.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)VERY different candidate.
Unfortunately I think one of the things he learned from that campaign is that he doesn't want to do it again.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Just another more of the same crap CorpoDem anyway.
No thanks.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)But I respect Al Gore, "corprodem" or no. He has a handle on the biggest problem facing all of us, and that's something.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Establishment Democrats had best get over the "anyone but Bernie" mentality or be prepared to lose in GE.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)That's where my support is already leaning.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Whoa, talk about excitement.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)You can't tell me this photo doesn't start your little heart a-pounding
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)And then go to sleep again?
That's the feeling I get. Like I just smoked a giant bong full of ambien.
Admiral Loinpresser
(3,859 posts)Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)polichick
(37,152 posts)Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)If party leaders actually cry for Biden to save the party from Bernie, as your bolded paragraph of your clip states, it will almost certainly doom the Democrats chance for victory in November.
Look what Nancy Pelosi just said:
Pelosi, the House Democratic leader, said she had followed Sanders down the West Coast during her travels around the country amid the August recess. The enthusiasm for the Democratic candidates message was remarkable, she said, especially among young people.
I was going right down that trail and it was just amazing to see, Pelosi told reporters from her office in the Capitol. Parents would come to me and say, Im for Hillary, Im for this one, Im for that one, my kids are all for Bernie Sanders.
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/253167-pelosi-praises-bernie-sanders
President Obama won (twice!) with enthusiastic support from young people. If Dem leaders embark on a 'Stop Bernie' effort, they will alienate young people and virtually guarantee defeat in November, imho.
Admiral Loinpresser
(3,859 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)but they do not care. bernie terrifies the third way dems. they would rather see the wh to trump than bernie.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)+1000 Kudos to you!