evolution. i hear people scoff, about clinton daring to evolve. well... lol, i see

[seabeyond]

Last edited Sat Aug 22, 2015, 02:11 PM - Edit history (1)

a bit of evolving going on regarding the democratic party, welcoming an independent to run, campaigning to all middle and working class. you know. alll. working and middle class. so, ... interesting.

a lot of evolving going on. i am reading that the dem party should welcome its destruction, so the independent can re build it, cause dems have done nothing, and are evil, horrible, and everything else.

hey wait... i like dems. i dunno, i really like dems. man, can i hang out with some dems, sitting here in amarillo tx? craving some dem. and i read that we dems should welcome total destruction for a rebuild, cause we do nothing.

that is not sitting well. how we have evolved from the day sanders steps into the primary race, to today.

i see a mere man being created as savior. for real. i heard, he is saving the democratic party. what is that, if not a savior. he is to SAVE us.

i see that as really really insulting. anyone else?

i do.

i am told i am not suppose to see this as bashing dems, but welcome our demise.

really?

i hear because of rw smear of clinton, she is unelectable. so , reward rw smears, you know, lies..... and dump her.

this is not how i battle injustices. as i am constantly told that unless i support one man, i have absolutely no ethics or integrity. i want everyone in the world to DIE..... or some such rot, cause we dems create never ending death for everyone.

anyone else getting a little bothered, pissed, ..... oh, i heard fury and frothing?

day one i said this was going to be a very interesting election season. and here we sit. evolving, so quickly, right out of our democratic skin.

[PatrickforO]

1. Or, maybe we're shedding the corporate skin the Dems have donned these last couple decades...

Just a thought. Because Bernie's not a 'savior.'

He is talking about issues that at one time formed the core of the Democratic ideal. If you read some old speeches by Franklin D. Roosevelt and other New Deal Democrats, you'll see that Bernie has come back to that core message; it is a message that saved America from going Communist in 1933, and created a powerful middle class that helped this nation become great. It created a 'great prosperity' from about 1950 to 1980 when the deterioration began.

So, you see, if you take a little longer view of history, you will see that beginning in the 1980s, the Democratic Party began its evolution toward the right as the Republicans 'evolved' even further right.

In the context of history, Obama and Clinton are what used to be called 'Eisenhower Republicans.' In fact, if you read Ike's brilliant 1963 essay, "Why I'm a Republican," and compare what he says in it, you'll see that Obama and Clinton are a little to the right of the ideas espoused therein, particularly on so-called 'free trade.'

So, what I'd say to you is that in Bernie, we have a reversal of the destructive neoliberal/neoconservative 'evolution' of Dems throughout the 80s, 90s, and 00s. Bernie is taking us back to the New Deal, which is basically a set of policies to strengthen the American middle class. Bernie does one better, though. He's got a good platform on racism and reform of the correctional system.

This is why so many of us are responding to Bernie. The American people are angry at how the game has been rigged against us, at how hard it is to get ahead now, at how dim the futures of our children are compared to ours. We are ripe for another New Deal - a Real Deal where our interests are once again put front and center.

[seabeyond]

2. " Because Bernie's not a 'savior.' " no, he is not. so, can we not revisit this one, ever, again?

[PatrickforO]

7. Sure, no prob. But why did you post what you did if you didn't want discussion?

Don't worry - no need to answer. Just sayin'

[seabeyond]

9. i am making a statement. i am a democrat. i like democrats. sanders is not gonna be saving me.

the democratic party is kick ass. we can tweak as we go, be i am not into my destruction to get oh.... repugs, libertarians and the others, vote. no

[wendylaroux]

76. maybe you don't need saving at all,

alot of people do.

[Le Taz Hot]

65. That was very well written.

[beam me up scottie]

67. I agree.

That post deserves its own op and a lot of people have the author of this thread on ignore so they might not see it.

[PatrickforO]

73. Nice of you to say that, beam

I did post it fresh. It really is what Bernie and his message mean to me. The thing that blew me away about Bernie, besides single payer, strengthening Social Security and all that, is that he is the ONLY politician I've heard EVER talking about taxing the $32 trillion in profits that are sitting offshore in places like the Cayman Islands. That's not OK - it takes money to run a government at all levels, and to have all that money just taken off the table is disastrous. Tax those untaxed profits and make sure these corporations continue to pay their fair share of taxes going forward, and we might actually have enough money to fight forest fires, for the CDC, for the infrastructure.

Anyway, I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but thanks for the thought!

[beam me up scottie]

75. You're welcome! I really enjoy reading your posts, PatrickforO.

You're becoming one of my favourite posters.

[840high]

84. Thanks!

[cali]

3. vinaigrette or buttermilk blue cheese?

Recipes upon request

[seabeyond]

4. that accomplishes absolutely nothing cali. why do you think it is even cute?

[cali]

5. as I couldn't really make heads or tails of your op,

it seemed reasonable.

[seabeyond]

10. whatever, then go away. you do not have to participate. you do not have to read. you can ask a

question for clarity.

all kinds of choice. but, you insult.

[cali]

15. no. I sure the fuck don't. do you only support corporate dems

And your op is offensive baloney. That much is clear. You slam bernie's supporters and then whinge about responses to you.

[seabeyond]

16. "corporate dems" name me a dem yawl are allowing to stay within the demo party.

[seabeyond]

17. ya cali. i find it offensive too. hence, my OP.

[cali]

20. I have never said that any particular dem should or shouldn't be "allowed"

in the Democratic party. I don't think in those terms.

[Warren DeMontague]

52. what's a dem yawl?

[840high]

86. Buttermilk please.

[beam me up scottie]

89. Sweet Vadalia onion.

I brought my own.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. Evolution has no direction and is neither progressive or regressive.

One can "evolve" from a peacenik to a warmonger. And, vice-versa.

[seabeyond]

11. true that, and i think this is my point. my use of evolution. that we are evolving in a direction

that as a democrat, thrilled with our democratic party, i am calling out.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. We're evolving into a label?

One size fits all?

Freedom for supporters of the government only, for members of one party only, no matter how big its membership may be is, no freedom at all. Freedom is always freedom for the man who thinks differently. Rosa Luxemburg

[seabeyond]

23. now the dem party has evolved to merely a label. ya. that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. You agree?

For some here, any candidate with (D) label deserves out vote without regard to anything but the label.

i.e. Bernie Sanders is not as good a candidate because his label is different than Hillary's.

I don't vote for Democrats because they have the (D) label behind their names. I vote for some Democrats because I agree with them on issues that are important to me.

[seabeyond]

26. what i am not doing is playing games. you reduce the dem party to now merely calling it a label.

you use that against me in a accusatory manner, as if people defending the dem party are merely stooges looking at a d. it is an insult. you and i know it. i do not have to justify or validate my statement i have made in my OP

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. Tsk. Tsk.

If you can't justify or validate your statement why post it? Or were you just looking for applause?

[seabeyond]

32. being a democrat on a democratic message board, i am allowed to like the democratic party. simple

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. Have at it.

If Hillary "evolved" into a Socialist would you vote for her? Would she still be a Democrat if she announced that she's actually a Socialist running a Democrat?

[seabeyond]

40. "38. Have at it." i did

[Fumesucker]

8. How long do you suppose it will be before we start seeing theads with shirtless pictures of Bernie?

The Bernie movement has a little ways to go before it reaches the Tiger Beat level of adulation that certain other politicians evidently provoke in their supporters.

[seabeyond]

12. it is interesting how it is evolving. lol. nt

[PatrickforO]

74. LMAO! You mean like Putin??

[fbc]

13. Punctuation is not your enemy

You took the time to write something that is probably important to you. You might as well put in just a little more effort to make it readable.

[seabeyond]

14. blah blah blah

[jonno99]

29. Yep - that is exactly the point - otherwise your OP comes across as 'blah,blah,blah'...nt

[seabeyond]

31. i made a statement. too many get it, agreeing or not. i am not arguing anything else.

[cali]

93. incoherency is not a positive value in any discussion

[Garrett78]

95. To be fair...

English may not be seabeyond's first/primary language.

[cali]

96. it is.

[freshwest]

111. Seabeyond writes in the style of e. e. cummings, required reading in my grade school.

He began to write avant-garde poems in which conventional punctuation and syntax were ignored in favor of a dynamic use of language....

That is a complex matter; irregular spacing ... allows both amplification and retardation. Further, spacing of key words allows puns which would otherwise be impossible. Some devices, such as the use of lowercase letters at the beginnings of lines ... allow a kind of distortion that often re-enforces that of the syntax.... All these devices have the effect of jarring the reader, of forcing him to examine experience with fresh eyes."

S. I. Hayakawa also remarked on this quality in Cummings' poetry. "No modern poet to my knowledge," Hayakawa wrote in Poetry, "has such a clear, childlike perception as E. E. Cummings—a way of coming smack against things with unaffected delight and wonder. This candor ... results in breath-takingly clean vision."

Norman Friedman explained in his E. E. Cummings: The Growth of a Writer that Cummings' innovations "are best understood as various ways of stripping the film of familiarity from language in order to strip the film of familiarity from the world. Transform the word, he seems to have felt, and you are on the way to transforming the world..."

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/bio/e-e-cummings

I like to format my replies to emphasize and separate thoughts. Like Cummings, I enjoy creating formats as art on the page:

...Cummings also experimented with poems as visual objects on the page...

I've written novels and essays in the conventional style. But one of my largest works of fiction uses no capitalization. The journey is following the thoughts conveyed, not the format. No one has any difficulty with any of my works.

To read Seabeyond, a person must be willing to travel to where she is going and observe what she is pondering. She leaves much unfinished as she writes, not trying to sell anything. Her posts are mere explorations of the mind.

[cali]

18. do post those links to the comments wishing for the total destruction

of the democratic party.

[seabeyond]

19. no. they are all over the place. remember, you cannot understand a single thing i am saying.

hence, your first post being pure insult.

yet... you are able to make demands.

you are too funny.

no. it is all over. one can easily get the gist of it.

your very comment to me in this thread accusing me of something, with the corporate dem crap is an example.

[cali]

21. lol. made up by you.

[cherokeeprogressive]

68. "the gist of it" Are you saying I'd have to read between the lines to see what you say you see?

So no one has actually called for total destruction of the Democratic Party... you just see it that way?

[IVoteDFL]

24. Wanting to move further left means the destruction of the Dem party?

News to me.


Furthermore what is with picking at his popularity? Calling him a savior is ridiculous and condescending. Not to mention in every other election cycle we consider enthusiasm to be a good thing. It is what normally gets people to show up at the polls on election day. If Clinton could muster the same enthusiasm with her supporters you would be singing an entirely different tune.

[HFRN]

27. that' really the best arguement you can make for Hillary over Bernie?

wow....didn't know you guys were that deflated

[seabeyond]

33. i am not a clinton supporter, this is not an argument about the candidates.

[cali]

37. lol.

[HFRN]

41. double lol

[Raine1967]

28. I read here on DU (more than once) that Sanders doesn't need labels.

DU search 'Bernie labels don't matter' and you will see examples.

A lot of supporters say that labels don't matter when we nominate a person for the party I consider myself a part of is interesting.

regarding evolution, think that Bernie really does need the Label of *Democrat* in order to run for president.

That isn't a knock on Sanders, he has a lot of really important issues that he is running on, but — in the end — Sanders needs the label of Democrat in order to run for President.

I am fine with candidates evolving. I want to know that the evolution will continue to progress, and not regress. That is important to me.

[seabeyond]

34. +1. nt

[AuntPatsy]

39. I'm not so sure Bernie needs the D stamp to run, considering the circus like atmosphere our election

process is boiling down to anything is possible...

[Raine1967]

44. There is a fact that cannot be denied: he is running for the Democratic Party Nomination

for PResident.

HE isn;lt running as an independent, and he isn;t running for the nomination of the Democratic Socialist party of America. The DSA is not running any candidates.

Labels matter, if they did not matter, Bernie would be running as an independent.

[AuntPatsy]

45. Perhaps they shouldn't matter so much, such has been known to incite hate et ...

We rely too much on labeling each other instead of spending more time trying to understand each other... I do the same but wish I could ignore that early on instruction which I've always believed divides us far too often....

[RichVRichV]

85. Run as an independent - you're a spoiler.

Run as a Democrat - you're a fake.

It's a catch-22.


The simple fact is Bernie is running as a Democrat so he won't be a spoiler. If you don't like him then all you have to do is primary him and go on to the general. It's the proper way to choose the best candidate to represent the party. You can say he's not a real Democrat all you want but he's showing a lot of respect towards the party by not sabotaging it's chances in the generals with an independant run.

[cali]

94. +1

[AgingAmerican]

35. "Daring to evolve"

As if it's the 'dashing' thing to do...

Bernie is 'Destroying the Democratic party?" Seriously? lol

Corporate influence is what has ruined the Democratic party. Bernie is saving it.

[seabeyond]

36. ruined the Democratic party. Bernie is saving it.

[Warren DeMontague]

53. It's daring when you wait for the polls to give you permission to support human rights.

A veritable profile in courage, I say, unlike the self-promoting weenies who stood up for it even when it was unpopular.

[seabeyond]

60. ruined the Democratic party. Bernie is saving it.

but really warren, not that ANYONE on du is saying it.

lordy, you guys make me laugh

[TheFarS1de]

63. One statement = Everyone else .

I hope you are not in Science .

[Warren DeMontague]

66. I think there are pretty clear divisions over a lot of things.

saying anyone "ruined the Democratic party" is as ridiculous as asserting Bill Clinton alone "saved" it, and only by triangulating in the style he is indisputably good at, can we continue to win elections.

I disagree with a lot of people, on a lot of things- like, a lot of people here have a list of reasons they're pissed at/disappointed in Obama, and while I agree with some of them, I think en masse he's done a good job and I firmly believe History will be far kinder to his record than it may appear now.

As for Bill Clinton- no one was a bigger, stronger defender of the guy and his administration at the time, than yours truly. And I still have mountains of respect for him and think he was a good President. But some of the decisions made during his tenure- DOMA, other culture war stuff, a massive expansion of the drug war, assorted economic decisions... have not aged so well.

And of course HRC is not her husband, however, she certainly seems to have learned the same lessons of political expediency, avoiding controversial stances, and triangulation that her husband is known for.

I've said before that leaving aside moral considerations on triangulation vis a vis potentially "controversial" or unpopular topics, I don't believe it is necessarily good politics, either, whatever the beltway conventional wisdom people -generally, 10 years behind reality- may think. What worked in 1992 might not be appropriate for 2016, same as what failed spectacularly in 1972 might not always be political kryptonite.

I believe the best chance we have next year is to run someone who is not afraid to lead, and by lead I mean actually take positions even if they may piss some people off.

Hillary very well could end up being that candidate. I mean it when I say I'm still undecided. Plenty of time to make up my mind.

[fbc]

81. Good post

[840high]

87. Bingo. Thanks.

[ismnotwasm]

42. Great thread Sea

I love the way you stay on point. Yeah, I like being a Dem, what I don't like is the conspiracy theory politics I see all over the place. What I don't like is seeing talking point attacking candidates from RW sources given legitimacy, or using direct quotes from RWnuts. (I Read "even a stopped clock is right twice a day" as an excuse for this)

I consider the source when "more progressive then thou" games are played, because they are played by people who are attention seeking with far too much to say and little of actual substance to express.

Evolving isn't what's happening here, unless there are, as you say, evolving right out of the Democratic Party. I've seen a number claim not to be Democrats--I guess that means they can loftily shit on actual Democrats, completely missing the layers of irony for the stink of self righteousness.

No what it is, is devolving, if their wasn't so goddammed much at stake it would be almost twee-- the idea that there is a one man revolution who, along with his evolved acolytes will change the face of politics in America, in the grand Hoover style of A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage. It's devolving because that's not how our political process works.

[seabeyond]

43. +1. interesting though, lol. nt

[freshwest]

112. Yes, the detractors are definitely not in line with such as Barbara Jordan. n/t

[BooScout]

46. You nailed it Seabeyond!

As always you say what so many of us believe!

[seabeyond]

47. thank you. i think so. too. and... it is good to hear. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

48. ....what?

Nominating Bernie Sanders would not be "destruction of the democratic party" or whatever. If he wins the primary, he will be the Democratic nominee. If someone else wins, it is reasonable to expect DU to support that person. as long as he's running as a Democrat and is part of our party's process, he is on our team. If he were to lose and go 3rd party, he would be in Nader territory, but I've seen no indication he would do that. (Trump, OTOH, might, and that would be a big win for us)

I dont believe Hillary's supporters are bad people, nor do I believe that Sanders's are. i dont believe either group, on DU at least, wishes for "the destruction of the Democratic party". Some people may have different VIEWS of what the party should stand for (to say the least!) but primaries are how we hash those things out.

I think some people here are fighting demons in their own heads which have zero to do with actual political reality.

The stuff you've got about people thinking Sanders is some kind of magic savior pretty closely echoes some of the more noxious crap HRC threw at Obama in 2008- you know, rainbows and unicorns. Which was pretty ironic, coming from someone who ran on "inevitability" and little else.

Lastly, yes, Hillary has "evolved" on things like marriage equality and certainly "evolving" is better than not evolving. But she doesnt get to erase history, and the people who never needed to evolve, still get credit for being right on those issues first.

[Bonobo]

62. Fuggin' hell, man, I wish you posted more.

lol yer a fuggin laser, whew, there i said it even if you know and i know that others are watchin whats goin on, and doin there lil thing, sure whatever if thats how ya wanna play it, cause momma dint raise no fool if you know what im sayin' lol.

[ismnotwasm]

69. Obsession

“You become what you think about all day long"

Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Warren DeMontague]

90. I love those guys!

[840high]

88. ...^ that

[PowerToThePeople]

49. I see

[seabeyond]

50. nu uh.

[Warren DeMontague]

51. These Navels Are FASCINATING!

DU is everything, always, at all times, and most importantly the final battle for evermore which decideth the fate of the Universe shalt be fought by the valiant against the sinful, on the plains and fields of Elad's servers.

[PowerToThePeople]

54. Says the person with over 60,000 posts

You should know.

Warren DeMontague (62,363 posts)
51. These Navels Are FASCINATING!

DU is everything, always, at all times, and most importantly the final battle for evermore which decideth the fate of the Universe shalt be fought by the valiant against the sinful, on the plains and fields of Elad's servers.

edit - sorry if this is misdirected. I could not interpret whether your post was supportive or a snipe at me.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. The op has over 100K, but ...so?

I'm sure she'd agree with me, that consistency is the hobgoblin of small muppets.



And believe me, there are a million things I'd rather talk about than which team on DU thinks their long-simmering grudge match against which other team, is justified.

[PowerToThePeople]

57. I would agree with that.

It does appear that is what DU is about now though.

[Warren DeMontague]

58. It's only August of 2015, too.

Imagine what this place is gonna look like in 6 months!

[ismnotwasm]

61. You think it will still be here?

I dodged a lot of 2008. Do you think it's worse this time around? It's a lot less fun around here, that's for sure. The constant snark, the memes, the snotty GIFs, the silly emoticons--all designed to annoy rather than make on actual point.


On the other hand, those are better than constant, droning gravitas, ego-OP's or the what the fuck did I just read woo woo CT crap that passes for political commentary.

I dunno.

[Warren DeMontague]

64. I'm not Nostradamus, but I do suspect it'll get worse before it gets better.

But, DU will survive. '08 was a mess--- shit, I remember '04 being like a gimungous bar brawl. Literally, chairs being broken over peoples' heads.

So hard to say if it's worse this time around, or not. I remember it always being pretty ugly.

[Warren DeMontague]

91. Just fwiw

No, that post wasnt intended as a snipe at you.

[beam me up scottie]

55. Lmao!

Nailed it!

[opiate69]

71. ...

[artislife]

70. *chortle

[malokvale77]

59. I see...

a lot of convolution in this OP.

[Ken Burch]

72. You don't have to support Bernie if you don't want to.

Just stop acting as if his campaign is a threat to your well-being. Just stop treating the guy as if he's worse than Lester Maddox and Phyllis Schlafly combined. In short, just calm down. Please.

And the point of that campaign is to build a truly progressive and worthwhile country...something the Democratic Party could flourish by trying to do.

Bernie fights for everything you care about as much as anyone else in the race does.

[Bonobo]

77. Ken, she's a "Sanders supporter". Did you forget that?

She's told us over and over again.

[Ken Burch]

79. I thought she finally admitted she wasn't. n/t.

[Bonobo]

82. Nope, I don't think it's her turn yet. nt

[beam me up scottie]

83. LOL!

[TDale313]

78. You and I have had some really good conversations

Regarding many things, including Sanders, in the past. And I've enjoyed them, found them thought provoking, done a fair amount of soul searching at times after them... Honestly? Not sure how many more of those are possible when it seems clear that you've decided Sanders and his supporters are the villain of the piece- that we're a threat for wanting to see the party move in a more progressive direction. That somehow we're fighting against things you and I both care very much about when that's not the case. We're not the enemy- Sanders is not the enemy. But I fear you're not able to see that right now, which makes me sad.

[seabeyond]

98. the same people in this thread, that attack feminist in every thread about womens issues. petty.

catty.

it is so fuckin old.

one of the first threads i read in populist was for this movement to do the same to the democratic party as the teabaggers did to the repug party. months later i am seeing results.

i was in a thread talking about the destruction of the democratic party and sanders was to save us.

how am i supposed to interpret that? he is a man. a mere man. good speeches and far from a perfect candidate as they all have flaws, being mere politicians. who is really being unfair?

maybe du has been taken over by other than democratic. look at the way sanders, clinton, omalley treat each other. i respect each and every one of them and have stressed that point when i have seen the respect given to each other. i have not stepped into one sander thread where his position on issue is different than clintons and he challenges. nor omalley. nor clinton. that is what a primary is about.

what i am tired of is all the shit i stated in that OP and i hear it repeatedly.

if you do not believe it is happening, how about challenging it when you see it. as a sanders supporter, why arent you and the others that decry it is not happening, stepping up when you see it.

how about two OP yesterday saying because of rw smear clinton should be dumped. and sanders should automatically get to be the front runner.

none of these are fabrications, pulled out of my ass.

if one does not support sanders they are corporate dems, turd way, and so many other insults. what is that, a base of supports turns on the rest of the dems like that, the majority of dems, in reality? why wouldnt fellow dems get disgusted by this behavior?

[GitRDun]

80. I find the whole Saint Bernie / Broom Hillary narrative repulsive...

Neither candidate resembles the caricatures some make them out to be.

I refuse to pick now.

I am rooting for Bernie to successfully build a broader coalition.

I am rooting for Hillary's campaign to energize up and begin to develop a greater feeling for how she'll lead.

I'd even like to learn more about Martin O'Malley.

I guess I would say I don't get insulted. Sometimes I chuckle, mostly I just shake my head wondering what the real Bernie would think or say about what is said in his name. Suffice it to say, I don't think he would be pleased.

[seabeyond]

99. "Saint Bernie / Broom Hillary""Neither candidate resembles the caricatures "

i am glad you can chuckle at it. i am all over the board. at the point of hearing a mere man, an independent not even a member of democratic party that hasnt put in the time to build that party, is my savior pushing me to angry.

mostly i am fasinated by the evolving of this campaign. it really is very interesting.

your approach, "Sometimes I chuckle, mostly I just shake my head wondering what the real Bernie "

is excellent

[Perry Smith]

92. Simple it is push back from the PEOPLE against Corporate Democrats and ALL of the Republicans

are in the pockets of the corporations.

Bernie is just the current voice of the people. There is no other viable party to turn to.

The people are just finally waking up to the fact the corporations and the 1% have way to much control and influence in government.

America can no longer continue to vote for those owned and beholden to the 1% and corporations.

If we continue to do so we will have lost what little democracy we have left.

Then again it could just be the wheel of history turning round, the american colonists has a similer problem with corporations and the rich and government and that lead to a completely new from of government.

We could be witnessing and or part of history, who knows?

[seabeyond]

101. Then again it could just be the wheel of history turning round

Then again it could just be the wheel of history turning round, the american colonists has a similer problem with corporations and the rich and government and that lead to a completely new from of government.

We could be witnessing and or part of history, who knows?

that does make it interesting.

where the fail is, is when i see it all anointed on one man and the great people in this revolution expect to do no more than a single vote in nov. if people were serious on this movement, then they would begin locally and start making the changes. this feels no more than 2008 with hope and change. i am hearing from the same people how one person is going to be able to accomplish all of this. it leaves for another huge fail, like hope and change.

[George II]

97. I'd rather have a candidate who can adapt to current conditions and events than.........

....one who is stuck in the '60s.

[beam me up scottie]

100. That's because Bernie didn't NEED to evolve George.

He always supported civil rights for everyone.

Only a HC supporter would think that was a bad thing.

[seabeyond]

102. of course he has. vote crime bill in the 90's has changed position today.

we have seen it plenty with the man. 1990 was different than 2015. we ALL have shifted over time. what moron wont?

[beam me up scottie]

103. Not on civil rights.

Neither one of us had to evolve on that issue.

Ymmv

[seabeyond]

104. yes, he has. 2000 he refused to say out loud that he supported gay marriage, was for civil.

[beam me up scottie]

105. LOL! He did no such thing!

I lived in Vermont when that went down. That hit piece you read was from a whiny "reporter" who couldn't get an interview with Bernie so he made it up.

If you want to be taken seriously you have to actually come up with you know - evidence.

Lol! By not saying something he's actually saying something else...

[seabeyond]

106. i have watched you tangle in this argument more than once. i am not going there. my OP is not

about sanders

[beam me up scottie]

107. Translation: you got nothin.

You should take it up with George, he brought up Bernie and I'll be damned if I let anyone lie about his record.

You're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

[seabeyond]

108. for anyone interested in a serious discussion, with facts, a thread with dsc spelling it out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251500521

[beam me up scottie]

109. You mean their opinion? You do realize that they didn't prove it either?

Anyway folks - just skip to post 85, case closed.

No interview, no quotes, no gotcha Bernie!!1!

Just more wishful thinking from people who don't want Bernie elected and don't have a problem swift boating the candidate with the best civil rights record.

Bernie Sanders has always supported lgbt rights.

He didn't need to evolve.


Y'all ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

[beam me up scottie]

113. Why hasn't Hillary changed her position on the death penalty?

Since we're comparing positions that's a civil rights issue she hasn't evolved on and another one that Bernie has always been right about.

[last1standing]

110. It was very courageous of her to evolve - shortly after everyone else did.

With leadership like hers, we could eventually see a day when women have the vote.