2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie Supporters - Please read my post
Heyo!! It's me again. I wrote a post this morning that I felt needed to be read by supporters of Bernie. I wrote it late in a thread and I worry that it will be lost in the GD-P shuffle.
Please read the whole thing and think it over for a bit, I'd really appreciate it if you will think over what I wrote and take it into consideration.
Response to JDPriestly (Reply #231)Sun Aug 2, 2015, 05:28 AM
Star Member bravenak (14,664 posts)
354. I actually appreciate the way you avoid being nasty towards Hillary. I try not to myself and I dislike her.
I usually find your posts reasonable and even if I do not agree, I can understand your policy differences with her and enjoy your positive support for Bernie. Nobody is perfect, but I do not see you as a negative supporter.
Now, I am Ideologically similar to Bernie as far as my politics go, although I find myself putting a bit more emphasis on the social justice aspect, rather than the economical. I see you as an ally in the fight for Black lives matters and appreciate that and hope that everyone can join us in our fight. You are on my side in my fight for justice, and I am on your side in your fight for economic fairness.
I do not hate Bernie or his supporters. I actually prefer Bernie and do not like Hillary. If I say things about what I think is hurting him with black voters, it is not because I want to trash him or you guys, I want you to know what I see and really am trying to help.
I want Bernie's supporters to include things that are important to black voters and place them at the top of the list of urgent business. I truly believe that the group that wins the support of black activists in movements like Black Lives Matters will win the black vote. And similarly with Latinos, the person and supporters that show the most concern, listen to hispanics in our nation and empathizes and places their concerns at the top along with economic and social justice will win their respect and votes. Minority communities are big on respect and appreciate attention paid to the issues that affect our communities specifically. We also want our vote earned and for the candidates to come to us and ask for our votes.
Bernie and his group have to spread goodwill throughout the Obama coalition. They need to steal Hillary voters. I fear that the active dislike for the man that many African Americans respect and love (honestly, we place him at the top of the list of All Time Greatest African Americans, above Martin Luther King Jr and MalcolmX, he to us is the all time greatest African American) is harming Bernie tremendously. We have an emotional connection to him, no amount of logic and policy discussions will change that. We do not like people who do not appreciate him and his accomplishments.
I say these things not to harn; but to assist. When I speak with other African Americans about the policy issues and differences between the candidates, they seem to actually PREFER Bernie's positions. But there is a lack of trust, and we find it difficult to get interested in a new (to us) candidate. We know the Clintons. We know they made terrible decisions. But when supporters beat us up with those facts, it shuts down the conversation and everyone retreats to their previously held positions. The Clintons are our default choice. The Clintons are praising Obama and that brings them enough goodwill to assuage the fears of another Welfare Reform debacle or Mass Incarceration mess. The Clintons are busy speaking on our issues and apologizing for past mistakes. I know that does not make up for the past, but when has America EVER made up for things done to black people? Never. An apology for hurting us is so damn rare that we forgive.
Now, I think we can get through this netroots debacle, but Bernie's supporters HAVE to listen to the members of the African American community and bite their tongues and figure out how to use the information we provide effectively. Life is a learning experience.
I have a few suggestions: in order to steal votes Bernie needs Obma voters. Please let people know that it is very counterproductive to trash Obama in any way really. We are so used to black leaders being trashed and hated and despised that we as a group will tune out any bad mouthing and silently hate the person speaking. It really doesn't matter if it is just about SEVERE disappointment with his policies or seeing him as too far to the right; it turns off potential black voters. Speak instead on how Bernie will defend the gains Obama made and expand upon them. It will be more effective.
Another thing is you all need to know that Black people LIKE the Clintons. Yes, they fucked up. But it seems that we are forgiving them and waiting to hear more about how Hillary will undo some of the policies and ensure that we work on the insititutional racism. Many are willing to give them a chance to fix things. It does not help Bernie AT ALL when folks talk crazy to black folks about liking the Clintons after all the damage they have done. It might help you to see this as a sign that black people can be willing to give multiple chances. This bad time with minority voters can be fixed.
I'd also suggest that his supporters might want to stop saying that economic justice and social justice are the same thing or that one brings the other. And maybe stop calling non Bernie supporters uninformed or implying that they are stupid or Hillary supporters. I get accused of supporting Hillary because I am saying these things to and about Bernie supporters. I understand that I have been a bit unkind by broadbrushing his supporters and I am sorry. I apologize for that and will try to do better. I just do not like my concern dismissed or my community or activists being disrespected or called right wing plants.
There is nothing wrong with being excited for a candidate. Or being an idealist. But it is not a winning strategy on it's own. Votes are needed to win. Bernie has the leftish progressive white liberals on his side and he has their support. He NEEDS more. Compromises will have to be made and tongues will have to be bitten to win the hearts and minds of the rest of the Democratic coalition.
Sorry about the super long post, but I just wanted to get that out there and see if anybody would take what I say seriously and help end this meme with the quickness. I do not like Bernie's supporters having the reputation of being mean, or intelligence snobs or hating black people. The only way to turn the tide is to change course. If you guys could collectively just be nice to black people and listen to us and support us in this fight for our lives and freedom; fight just as hard as you fight FOR Bernie, this problem would be a thing of the past.
Now, I know some will see this as an attack; please try your best not to do that, but to see it as a person who wants the same things you want trying to help you understand their perspective. Thank you.
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djean111
(14,255 posts)start supporting Hillary I am just being an obstinate RW tool who wants the GOP to win.
That is the unspoken (or spoken) thought in anything said to Bernie supporters.
I do appreciate HRC supporters' helpfulness in bringing up things like Bernie's family - in a well-meaning way, of course, just to show us how ugly the GOP would be.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That is what I see. They do not disrespect me or my community. They like Obama and celebrate his accomplishments. They support black lives matters fully and always have my back when people treat me foully or disrespectfully.
I understand that many have policy differences with Hillary and that is fine. Thinking Bernie can't win is fine. I hope he does. But the level of vitriol is why his support is not higher.
If we could tone down the level of hatred, we could make gains. We are in this together. We Are a team; a family.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)this election and hope your post helps to do that, at least among those who sometimes get caught up in the vitriol but probably should not.
You have made some great points. And you did it with thoughtfulness and no, I did not take it as an attack, I took it as I believe you intended. No one is perfect as you say, and I believe a good candidate will listen to good advice.
I like you, try not to get into bashing other candidates, but do focum on the issues. But sometimes do respond to nasty comments when they are best ignored.
Thanks for the post, rec'd and kick'd
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I hope we can get a better discourse going and end this divide. I do think Bernie has the best positions. We just have to make people receptive and comfortable with him. I think it can be done, I'm hopeful.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)be influenced by candidates who SAY the right things, and so yes, it is important for Bernie to say what he has long believed.
When I choose a candidate I look at their voting records because in elections people will say a lot but the only way to know if they are sincere is to see how consistent they have been, which is possible if they have been in elected office for any amount of time.
But I know not everyone takes the time to do that, so it's up to the candidate to be very clear on issues.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I immerse myself in the candidates position and history, but I also vote EMOTIONALLY. So many folks vote against their own interests in an emotional way. We have to connect the candidate of our choice to the voters that we need on an emotional level. People like to be cared about and we like to care about our politicians, bad or good that's who we are. Just humans seeking attention and acceotance and love. Even with our politicians we do it. We love to love our candidates.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)"So many folks vote against their own interests in an emotional way. We have to connect the candidate of our choice to the voters that we need on an emotional level."
It would be pretty to think logic always rules, but we live in the real world here.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Republicans call them wedge issues or the liberal evil commie agenda. It scares republicans. 
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Thank you! 
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)You are not alone. The vast majority of voters support who they support because of an emotional attachment; despite, their claiming it was the result of dispassionate benefit-based analysis.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Look at the entire Republican party. I do not see any logic in their voting habits unless they are very wealthy or very bigoted. Not logical. All emotion.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)like the passage of the TPP if he gets this deal settled before the election? Is opposition to a bill that will raise the price of medicine to the point that the people in the poorer nations will not be able to get them seen as a sign of hatred toward him? How do we handle a difference on issues with him?
And I will say that while economic justice cannot totally change social justice I have watched it turn our reservation into a respected business and employer of all people in the community that used to just shuck us off as worthless. And being shucked off began in kindergarten. We were seen as not worth bothering with.
A funny example: we used to be known by the junk cars parked in our yards because we could not afford to buy good ones and we could not afford to get rid of them. Sometimes we did not even get them home before we had to junk them. Today we are the ones driving the good cars around and people see us in a whole new way. When we go to the dealership today we are welcome - we are no longer seen as the easy mark to make a fool of. They welcome us because we are there to do business. And they want us to come back.
Housing could be another example. Many of our members are now living off reservation in the towns. We are an active part of the community and we know our neighbors and they know us. Our children play with their children. Before we could afford non-tribal housing we were seen as "them". Now we are part of the community.
Employment has also been change by our economic success. In the 60s I knew two Natives who had jobs off the reservation in white owned businesses. Today that has changed because we hire all races in our businesses and also because we are no longer seen as useless. They no longer say that they are not hiring the minute we walk into the door. We spend money in their businesses and they hire us in turn.
So economic justice does help to change things. Just not all things. It is going to take more than economic justice to change things like police violence and hatred.
So yes at this minute in time with more than 560 killings of unarmed black persons mostly for small offenses social justice is the most important issue of our time. For God's sake it cannot actually wait for a new president to take office - something needs to be done NOW because by the time another president takes office in 2017 that number will double. So yes, Black Lives Matter. This issue needs to be dealt with NOW.
I was glad to see the article regarding MO and Ferguson yesterday that did indicate that something is being done now. That needs to be done in a whole lot of other communities as well.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)At this point in time there has been so much criticism of Obama, much of it from the right, but alot of it comes from the left, and much of it unfair; i think that this is one of those biting your tongue issues. Watch how you frame your issues with the TPP and never get into personal attacks or name calling. Call out the over the top posters and folks you deal with and let them know they are HURTING your candidate.
We have a level of trust on Obama that we have NEVER experienced. You cannot argue with it, we will not be moved by lofty policy discussions or criticism of policy. We have seen too much hate directed towards him and we feel like he gets stabbed in the back by whilte liberals. Even my landlords says so and he could not possibly care less about politics. The perception is already there so all the criticism does is reinforce the idea that it's racially based attacks. They mostly come from white folks; left or right, most of the accusing fingers comes fromwhite folks. It is difficult to navagate, but do realize that we have been navagating through political mindfields since the beginning just to try to survive in America and we are used as pawns and we know it.
With all we have to deal with, we just want our allies to stop trying to tear him down and tarnish his legacy. It pushes us into Hillary's arms. I think that's not too much to ask.
appalachiablue
(41,140 posts)should work with the Sanders campaign to direct them on how to reach and win over the emotions and trust of black people. And they should welcome that since they want to reach voters, are self aware and must realize how white liberals are long known to be distrusted as Malcom X knew, responsible as you say for much of the hate directed at Pres. Obama and ones viewed as back stabbers. HRC's campaign would also gain from your advice and insights in my view. How terrific to see someone so articulate, knowing and informed on issues, also perceptive and skilled at reading people as you say.
Like others, it's great how the Clintons' involvement in Workfare, prison incarceration and recent apologies for that don't impair your views of HRC. Being more comfortable around her supporters and also respected and valued is very important. We all know it's good to keep an open mind and select candidates wisely and rationally, but using one's intuition and insights is also essential. In reading all of these posts and your comments, again, it would benefit Sanders campaign and supporters if you provided official counseling and direction.
That you're not completely closed to the Clinton campaign is sensible, where the power and money are after all. Certainly not the case with the PUPs- the 'Progressive Unicorn Party' as an OP poster referred to Sanders campaign last night! And besides, idealists and liberals never have vast resources like corporate based politicians- just stating the obvious reality. And, if you do go with HRC, get the reparations, for real- long overdue, they have the $, and make them pay for it! You have a great one & see you around. 
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I would like nothing more than to help. Maybe somebody will email him this post and he can take a look at the responses? I think it may be helpful.
I cannot vote for HRC in the primary I don't believe. I try to be receptive, but it is difficult. But, as you know, Republicans are fucking insane. I have to vote Dem in the General for my own personal heath and safety.
Thanks for this post. I feel more positive. Maybe we can spread it around and see if it helps in anyway.
(Maybe you're right. I might need to spend my energy on a campaign. I'll think hard about how to do so effectively)
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)I assume you mean "Black Lives Matter".
Speaking of vitriol.... why would you even mention that "they" support BLM.... fully? Who here doesn't? What candidate doesn't? None that I know of. There was a big PR stunt staged to disrupt the Netroots Nation forum in AZ to make some candidates look bad, but it didn't prove anything. I find it pretty ridiculous to think that Sanders somehow does not care as much about black issues than Hillary. It's a RW meme that started in VT (or was it NH) because of a lack of black people in an audience of supporters.... Of course ignoring the racial makeup of those states. I am disappointed people fall for these things..... looking for examples, no matter how absurd, to support this RW planted idea.
And it's not fine thinking Bernie can't win. He CAN win. It is not "Hillary's turn" nor does she "deserve" the nomination or the presidency. These notions I find really undemocratic, unhelpful, and merely symptoms of a cult of personality.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You have to learn from people like me and move out of your comfort zone. Take what I said as a lesson you can take or leave.
But I am prescient. I am fucking awesome at predictions and tea leaf reading. Listen to me well and you will benefit; ignore me and continue with the anger and you will lose.
The fact that you are so dismissive and call it a stunt is why you are helping your candidate lose. I understand black people very well. You should heed me. You won't and that makes me sad because I want Bernie to win and folks like yourself are RUINING it. Kinda felt snobby. The way you speak to me lets me know you do not see me as an equal or value my input. I feel left out and discarded.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)It was a stunt. A PR stunt. The candidates were there to talk about immigration. Both Sanders and O'Malley addressed their concerns briefly then tried to get back to the subject of immigration.... but the event was ruined.
Have they done it to Hillary?
And now I will repeat what I was editing into my 1st post while you were replying:
I find it pretty ridiculous to think that Sanders somehow does not care as much about black issues than Hillary. It's a RW meme that started in VT (or was it NH) because of a lack of black people in an audience of supporters.... Of course ignoring the racial makeup of those states. I am disappointed people fall for these things..... looking for examples, no matter how absurd, to support this RW planted idea.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Not if they are gonna push RW memes.
Are you gonna accuse me of being a white supremacist? Because you seem to be veering into that vitriol you dislike so much.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)How does that help him win the black vote?
Alfalfa
(161 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Response to bravenak (Reply #254)
Post removed
bravenak
(34,648 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Last edited Tue Aug 4, 2015, 01:26 AM - Edit history (1)
senz
(11,945 posts)Still not sure about you though...
artislife
(9,497 posts)You have been so kind to me, extend that to Bravenak.
She is really trying to get Bernie to connect and then elected. Really.
It isn't an attack.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Sigh.... They say that no good deed goes unpunished.... 
bravenak
(34,648 posts)orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)"that Sanders somehow does not care as much about black issues than Hillary." I don't claim to have read every post, nor have a perfect memory, but I do not recall that.
The question was how he was (or wasn't) currently addressing those issues and how his actions (or lack of them) were *perceived*.
Perceptions matter if you're talking about getting votes. And as a Bernie supporter, I am very interested in getting votes.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)re: Hilary Supporters
"They support black lives matters fully"
Fully, mind you.
And as I pointed out, it's a RW meme to believe that Sanders somehow does not support the black community as much as Hillary.
Let's not perpetuate it.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)"their current actions indicate that 'they support black lives matters fully,' according to my (the writer's) definition," then that's the perception kind of thing I'm talking about.
If someone perceives Bernie (and/or his supporters) as being behind the curve, I feel it would be good to listen to why they have that perception. Especially when expressed as well as bravenak expresses it.
I think part of the issue here is conflating Bernie himself with some current feelings about Bernie (and/or his supporters).
As far as I've ever observed, you can't cause people to change their feelings just by insisting that they do so.
appalachiablue
(41,140 posts)Tues., May 26.
This bizarre compilation of George Washington, FF and slave owner, and 2 Chicago cops posed with a young black man as 'deer kill' was an offensive, racist lie and distortion to attack Bernie that appeared Wed., May 27, the very next day. The unfounded claims haven't let up since.
See post #143 above and DU OP link there, about some of his amazing 40 year career, work and record in this area.
NOT GOOD ENOUGH, BERNIE, Wed. May 27, 2015.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026737025
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I don't think the author of the post you linked to so much as posted in this thread. And the tone (and perhaps - even probably - the purpose) is certainly much different from bravenak's.
I do not need a link to be fully aware of Bernie's career, nor, I think, does bravenak. That's not what's being discussed (by most, at least) anyway.
If you hadn't noticed, bravenak wants Bernie to win, as do I. I believe the issues she brings up need to be addressed in order to have a better chance of accomplishing that.
appalachiablue
(41,140 posts)worth listening to. What I and others are illustrating with facts is that he is not behind the curve regarding his actions and beliefs. Also that he and his behavior have been distorted and smeared from day one. I was not speaking of feelings or moods, which seem to be the essence of a lot of this conversation. Have a good night.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I still don't understand what your link has to do with this thread or good 'ol 142.
I'm a supporter, and I contend that some of his actions, or lack of, have in fact been behind the curve, at least for a period of time, and that some of his "supporters" are not helping.
I completely agree that he is far from behind the curve regarding his beliefs - he is light-years ahead.
And he is light-years ahead in listening, which is more than I can say for some of his "supporters."
Have you heard of Aristotle's three appeals? It would be pretty to think that logic rules, but emotional and personal often *overrule*. And telling people how they should feel generally backfires.
eridani
(51,907 posts)That said, I agree that his campaign does need to refocus on non-economic issues that strongly affect the lives of people of color. No white Harvard prof like Henry Louis Gates, Jr. will ever be treated like a possible burglar in his own home.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)I disagree.
Since...as he a said..... economic inequality is at the root of racial problems.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Racism is not about poverty. It is about American Racism. If you are right, why do Wealthy Black people STILL suffer from racism on a daily basis???? Just by turning on the TV you get racist images pumped to you daily. You will NEVER convince US that if we were just rich, racism would magically dissappear.
It never has worked before; we have no reason to trust your judgement. You who talk down to us so paternalistically! We understand racism BETTER than you, but you REFUSE to learn from us mere mortals of blackened skin about our own trials and tribulations. You know better than us what we suffer daily, how could you not??? We're just black people!!! How could we POSSIBLY know anything about American Racism?!?! Too stupid and illogical to EDUCATE ourselves as to what YOU think WE should think is most important and at the root of all of our troubles. As long as you can blame money, we can pretend that there 'nothing we can do, sorry black people, just gotta deal with getting talked to like idiots and treated like purile animals for another Few generations MORE until white people FEEL like letting go of their racism AND LETTING us be human like them.'
It's all our fault, such unruly negroes. After all, our skin color means we should suffer extra in silence if white liberals are having a speech. Otherwise We're stupid, and Koch brothers rightwing plants. Please talk to us like we're stupid and need white people to explain our REAL troubles to us.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)No one thinks that.
That's not "the economic problem."
What is "extra silence?" .... especially at a forum on immigration?
"Please talk to us lik we're stupid and need white people to explain our REAL troubles to us."
Oh I see it now. No white person could ever contribute to ending racism. I understand now.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's RACIST in and of itself. You are supoosed to LEARN from US about racism, we already know it first hand, MUCH BETTER THAN YOU!
ESPECIALLY ON THIS POLITICAL MESSAGE BOARD!!! WE ARE WELL EDUCATED!!! JUST AS WELL AS YOU IF NOT MORE. And we are CERTAINLY more educated that the average white college graduate on matters of race, racism and civil rights. It is our birthright.
stone space
(6,498 posts)...you'll find that the event was most certainly not ruined.
How many protests have you participated in that have actually had an impact that could be recognizable so quickly?
I've been involved in a shitload of protests that have had no visible impact on anything in the short term whatsoever.
If you think the event was ruined, then you haven't been paying attention to the reactions of the candidates.
This action got their attention big time.
That's a pretty damn successful action in my eyes.
But then, you probably get upset at Code Pink as well.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Well they ran out of time and couldn't talk about the subject they and the audience came to discuss.
The even was not Black Lives Matter's disruption. Talk about not paying attention.
And the main fall out from the protest was to support a false Right Wing meme.
Way to go!
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)There's a time to speak and a time to listen.
This was Martin and Bernie's opportunity to listen.
daybranch
(1,309 posts)there was nothing they had not heard and no sentiments being expressed they did not agree with, They came to talk about their agenda and Black Lives Matter created nothing of significance other than to appear disrespectful , and drown out speeches others wanted to hear. They shouted say the name but they themselves never say it. The name is the man and Bernie and O'Malley are more than willing to say the name that is the major cause of racism and black murders by police. That name is the billionaires, wall Street Bankers, and Corporation CEOs who pay their political hacks to divide poor white and black people in order to create the hate necessary for their candidates to win election. But Black Lives matter somehow believe all the focus should be on the victims. The focus should be on the cause and until we white and black 99 percenters see this, the racism reigns and the rich win.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)You are absolutely right.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Last edited Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:29 PM - Edit history (1)
No.
It was a forum on immigration. That's what they and the audience were there for.
Why didn't Black Lives Matter get their own forum together and invite ALL the candidates.... and they could have discussed the important issue at length.
All the disruption did was reinforce that Right Wing meme that is clearly untrue.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)No it isn't.
It was an event about immigration. Why don't you get that? And those African Americans were let in.... assuming they were there to hear them talk about immigration.
How many times does it have to be pointed out that this disruption perpetuated right wing talking points?
*********
Pointing out these things has nothing to do with "white male privilege".
You simply don't seem to listen to anything anyone says. You've concretely made up your mind. As rigid as any Teabagger. There's no use discussing this with you.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Last edited Tue Aug 4, 2015, 01:21 AM - Edit history (1)
Do you tell Jewish people that poverty is the root of Antisemitism? You would NEVER!
Do you tell gays that poverty is the root of Homophobia? You would NEVER!
Do you tell women that sexism is caused by poverty? You would NEVER!!
That kinda stupid shit is saved for black people. White male privilege.
Alfalfa
(161 posts)What happens to them if they don't?
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)Obviously, you don't "have to" take that advice. But I think it's shortsighted not to.
I'd like Bernie to win, don't you?
Alfalfa
(161 posts)Selling out and pandering to groups just to get their vote defeats the whole point of winning. If there are certain people out there who won't support you because they don't get everything their way, you're probably better off without them.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)"pandering"? Why would that be? Isn't social justice a major progressive value?
Honest to gawd, I don't get why so many Sanders supporters are acting like black activists are the enemy. It's so wrong-headed I can't even begin to grasp the thought process behind it. But it's one hell of way to build a coalition for your "political revolution".
Good luck winning an election without the black vote.
Alfalfa
(161 posts)And that's what he does, and he does it well. Race shouldn't even be an issue.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)Sorry to break your privileged white illusion but race IS an issue, a BIG issue. People are being killed in this country because of their race.
But that doesn't effect you, so you think it's "divisive" to bring it up.
Okay, have fun playing at your all-white "political revolution". Don't expect any sympathy from me when we all end up with friggin' Hillary as the nominee.
Response to scarletwoman (Reply #297)
Post removed
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)
What country, or world, for that matter, are we living in?
I don't consider it divisive at all to acknowledge that some groups have different/more issues than others. To do otherwise would be ostrich-like.
I can't reply directly to 299 because it is hidden. Reply to 299:
OMFG. Really?????????
Aerows
(39,961 posts)
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I desperately needed the comic relief. 
heaven05
(18,124 posts)BS supporters are causing to their candidate...you are.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)No
The "problem" is the perpetuation of the RW lie that Sanders does not care about black lives.
Why is Black Lives Matter championing a Right Wing falsehood? Why are they spending Conservative talking points?
Why don't they have a forum and invite Sanders and the rest of the candidates to discuss it thoroughly, instead of pulling stunts that help Republicans?
heaven05
(18,124 posts)#BlackLivesMatters is making you understand what matters to POC. Your whining, distracting, diminishing of POC won't change that. BS supporters ARE helping other Democratic candidate(s) look a lot more appealing is all that is happening. Quit whining and get moving, you're holding up the train.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)HRC supporters are some of the nastiest on here. That is just so disingenuous.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)No. It is not. You did not read my op. I shall not read your responses until you read the op. Have a blessed day.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)I try to speak honestly with you and you come back with the lecture thing and now it's HRC supporters are all just so wonderful and Bernie supporters are just big ol' meanies. When I hear that I know the person saying it is full of shit because all you have to do is look in the HRC group to know there are some truly nasty and dishonest people in there. Perhaps you are just blinded by your emotions to see it, so I try to take that into consideration, but really, you have to know that is just so not true. And I can ask you the same type of question... Do you think that's going to turn around Bernie supporters?
If you don't want honest discussion then fine. Have a nice day.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)How nice of you.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)read the OP if it stood. It's not a demand really, it was an offer, which you refused. Good for you.
I can see from your sig line that you are not open minded at this point in time, and I have seen enough of your posts about the topic of your sig to know that you don't get or care why people have to keep repeating Sanders record and are taking it personally when it isn't, unless you are one of the ones attempting the Du swiftboating of him. If you aren't then you should just ignore it, it isn't directed at you.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
George II
(67,782 posts).....things to say about the OP and rec'd it, and you have this.
rpannier
(24,329 posts)Last edited Mon Aug 3, 2015, 06:38 AM - Edit history (1)
But, I do see a few of the HRC people posting how Sanders will never win
I know of at least one who is totally hung up on him not being a real Democrat because he's been an independent, so that person doesn't think we should support him
I have had this discussion with African-American friends of mine, and you are right, 'Black people LIKE the Clintons' - at least the one's I know from Chicago and Lake County in Indiana
I've pressed a few of them to explain why and it comes down to a variety of reasons; which is good, because I'd hate to think it was one reason only. I have reminded them of policy decisions of Bill, the Jesse Jackson comment about Obama and HRC's votes and positions on incarceration, her vote on changing bankruptcy laws, etc
Most of my friends tell me, 'She's changed.'
They also believe she listens and that she's been unfairly treated over the past 2 decades. While those that feel she's been mistreated don't come out and say it, I think they feel an understanding of what it's like to constantly be under assault by the media, the politico-sphere, etc.
I see no point in going into a knock down drag-out with them because it's not worth pissing them off, or me for that matter.
There isn't enough of a difference between HRC and Sanders to take it to a steel cage match -- if it were Sanders and Webb we were talking about, I'd be more forceful. If it were Sanders and Jeb, I'd throw up my hands and bang my head against the wall. But, it's not.
I am not convinced she's changed that much. I don't think, like many people here do, that everything she says, every evolution she's made is calculated for the most votes. Plus, and this is one of the arguments one of my friends gave me, when she lost in 2008 she didn't pout and whine like the PUMA group did. She accepted the results, spoke on Obama's behalf and served in his cabinet.
I realize my group of African-American friends in the Chicago-Lake County, IN area do not constitute a mega-gigantic group (40 families), but it's a few things I hear from them
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's just the one, but they keep harping on the fact that Bernie is not a Dem. i try to ignore people who just keep repeating themselves. It drives me crazy.
Yes. You are right. Most believe she has changed, he has changed, and they forgive the Clintons. I cannot argue with that. I rather like Bill and love when he gives speeches.
And yes, we do feel like the Clintons have been targeted, all the little scandals that are blown up out of proportion is the main reason. We feel like WE are targets and so are they. Like comrades on a battlefield, we have to support and defend each other.
You will rarely see me atrack or disparage Hillary. I have said what I do not like about them, and I refuse to poison the conversation by harping on every mistake. It's not productive.
Her accepting the loss and being Secretary of State for Obama is a big win for her. When everyone else was slamming Obama the Clintons were not.
rpannier
(24,329 posts)1. People do need to move out of their comfort zone and talk with people with whom they disagree a little more.
2. I know it's difficult for some people to accept, but they just won't accept that HRC (and Bill) are popular in minority communities and not just African-American communities. I was watching The David Pakman show and he read a poll that showed something like 60% of all Democratic Hispanics didn't believe anyone should run against her in the primaries. As I recall the poll had similar numbers among African-Americans
*The poll was from late May or early June.
2. Maybe talking with members in minority communities might give people more insight into why they are supporting HRC, instead of coming here and saying 'When they learn more about Bernie they'll be voting for him.' or 'It's not true. His message has broad support.' etc
I am voting Bernie. But, should he lose to HRC, I have visions of his supporters here at DU looking like the rMoney people after Obama got re-elected. They looked so baffled. And it was because of the cellophane wrap they were encased in.
3. One argument that I haven't been able to counter, no matter how hard I try is, when my friends say they are voting for her (or O' Malley) because they think they are better prepared to sit in the White House and make those decisions and forge those coalitions to make stuff happen.
That's hard to counter because both Clinton and O' Malley have more experience with the executive branch.
*If you have a counter to their argument, I'd love to hear it.*
4. I was unfair to the HRC people (and will edit my above post), it's really a few that say he can't win, not a lot.
I do want to say, I appreciate your post. It brings up things people should be thinking about. It is true that economics and civil rights do not go hand in hand, like some would believe.
My father pointed out that the US experienced huge economic growth in the 40's and 50's. But that didn't equate to gains in equality for minorities, women and single parent households. Many areas of the country kept minorities from experiencing the joys of the boom period
Thank you for really thinking it over. I think this had been a much more positive experience than I had expected.
I know I have been bringing this stuff up a lot over the last few weeks, but it is something that really bothers and frustrates me. I keep trying to figure out how to explain what I see, but it's like writing a poem, you know? Sometimes it takes a while to pull the snippets of emotions and feelings together in a rational wah in order get the response you want. The effect you desire.
At first I was so mad after netroots. I could not figure out why people were acting so vicious and, well, racist. I realized that many did NOT know what they looked like. How could they? There were no black people here to tell them besides me, and I knew it would cause me to be hated. But I just had to.
I had hoped they would listen and end it immediately. I felt bad that nobody believed me and that people thought I was just trolling or 'race nagging'. People said such mean things. But we can move forward if we have humility and compassion for others.
I think speaking with black folks outside of DU would be brilliant. Even just reading black publications (not the Black Agenda Report, please no, just trust me) and going through the comments and reading them would help.
The experience thing is a big 
. I have no idea what to say to people who question his experience. Maybe remind them that he will have skilled advisors?
And yes, the gains missed us. They always do. That is why we don't trust in the economic justice message. We know we will NEVER get our fair share. How can we will so many of us in prison or dead?
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Holy crap, people. 
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)
I am confused. djean111
(14,255 posts)I am basically being told how to ACT if I want Bernie to get AA votes.
Because without the AA votes, Hillary will win.
My point of view - nothing any elected person or candidate can do will erase racism. Inequality can be addressed, but I do not think racism can be legislated away.
And - what do I do when I feel that, say, the TPP reeks? Is that considered "bashing Obama"?
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)We have legislation from the past, though, to show how to REDUCE the racism in our systems, such as the Voting Rights Act, or the Civil Rights Act. So we can fight for a new act to address the structural racism in our justice system in ways similar to how we did voting rights suppression. Legislation that prohibits policing activities that produce disparate impact on minority communities, just like we had legislation about electoral changes that result in disparate impact in minority voting.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
stevil
(1,537 posts)Thank you for that.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)but the spirits are the same. There was a movement building and a fair number of the people of the country started to think just maybe they could pull off an upset. An upset that would throw off the yoke of subservience and exploitation.Those who didn't agree with that group of visionaries had several reasons not to - but the overarching concern was letting go of what they felt they had a handle on vs. that that was a flight of seeming fancy. As well, there was concern for backlash if the upstarts failed with their dream.
Well..... there's been so much written about that crazy quest and the fanatical faith of those who saw to it that the dreamer's dreams became reality. And at that, what initially emerged from that challenge and victory was imperfect and in need of grooming (grooming that's still going on as a matter of fact). We're a nation with a track record of doing the seemingly impossible - improbable even. So now I'm not supposed to upset the applecart - or at least vocalize my preference for doing so???
Every elections since Carter lost, we've been wooed by magicians and their sleight-of-handiwork that's been a major component of their courtship. As a result, we've endured more infidelity than an aging Hollywood has-been. If only we HAD "looked at the men behind the curtain!)
I'm too old and gnarly to want to spend what time I have left - clamoring for someone else's ideals. I know what I want (for my country) and that's the star I'm gonna steer by - unless and until it flickers out.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Yes, that's one of my takeaways too (well, I think I'd go for "suggested" rather than "told"
, and I am grateful for the advice!
(No sarcasm - I seriously am grateful for the advice.)
However, my recollection of the post is that it's mainly an explanation of how people *feel* - also useful information for which I am grateful.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)As bravenak said, Hillary is the 'default', the 'devil you know', and gets lukewarm support. That means there still exists a chance to win those AA votes away, IF Bernie gets his message out in the right way, and IF his supporters don't piss black people off enough with ham-handed attempts to 'message' for him that come off as patronizing or condescending.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Is that what you call it? If so...Sanders is in a very deep hole indeed!
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Some people posed for pictures in front of the crowd after Clinton’s speech to the National Urban League’s convention; others snaked their arms around well-wishers to snap pictures of the candidate, smiling and grabbing hands.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/darrensands/hillary-clinton-at-national-urban-league#.wxPLj0ber
And yes, Sanders was there
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Lukewarm my big toe!
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)http://www.buzzfeed.com/darrensands/hillary-clinton-at-national-urban-league#.wxPLj0ber
still_one
(92,206 posts)more responsive to African Americans than Bernie.
The OP is suggesting that Bernie address more issues affecting African American issues into his campaign.
Personally I think the OP is asking if Bernie could address African American issues more in his campaign. You can agree with that or disagree with that premise, but I think that is where the OP would like to have a dialog. It seems to me that the OP is actually looking for a reason to support Bernie, but wants him to state what he will do for African Americans.
Of course that should apply to all the candidates, but to the OP, Bernie has not been specific or discussing it enough.
djean111
(14,255 posts)still_one
(92,206 posts)caught the whole video, Bernie did try to address the issues BLM was bring up.
So while it is up to his campaign, Bernie is receptive to his supporters input.
If I was going to defend Bernie on this issue, I would point out that in the town hall/BLM his approach was through economics and education. His proposals of Free college, increasing the minimum wage, are some of the specifics. There are other issues that must be addressed also, such as law enforcement abuses of African Americans, etc.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)He would be aware that HRC is kicking his butt on issues important to the AA community.
appalachiablue
(41,140 posts)holding officers who commit illegal acts accountable, dealing with police depts. that look like the military and strengthening black communities through education and jobs which help combat poverty, despair and more inequality. Invest in education and jobs, not jails and prisons he says.
Since *1991, when he was new to the Congress, Sanders went on record in the House of Reps. speaking out against racist, tough on crime legislation aimed at increased incarceration of minorities and the poor, which sadly came to pass with the 1994 Violent Crime Law that has ruined the lives of many and their families and communities that Bill Clinton has apologized for recently.
3. In 1994 Bill Clinton Passed the Violent Crime Control Law and is Now Apologizing to the NAACP.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=281380
There have to be, and will be enhanced policies to eliminate illegal law enforcement practices, brutality and violence targeting blacks and PoC and the US incarceration rate of the most people in prison on earth, mainly blacks and Latinos.
Why these issues are not being addressed nationally or on the state level through AGs and governors is very disturbing, same with VOTER SUPPRESSION which impacts AAs and also youth, senior voters, the poor and others. Recently Pres. Obama visited a federal prison and called out a system that will incarcerate 1 of 4 black men born now if not changed, an effort which Sanders praised in the below speech in Iowa, July 17.
-------
- Sanders on BLM, Iowa Democratic Hall of Fame Dinner, July 17, 2 days before Net Roots Nation Conf.
- SBS: I Want an America Where Blacks are Not Harassed, Shot and Killed by Police, June 17, pre NRN
http://www.democraticunderground.com/128029698
- Sanders speaking on BLM, June 6 early in his campaign in Keene, NH, community Ctr., 750 attendees.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)There are other issues that must be addressed also, such as law enforcement abuses of African Americans, etc.
He has addressed the racism in policing and the militarism in policing and the prison problem of too many minorities in prison and said this needs to change.
I know everyone can't listen to every one of his speeches, but they have been posted here.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)Mrs. Clinton APPEARS to be more responsive to African Americans than Bernie.
When in fact, who marched for civil rights in the 60s and got arrested for it?
Who said that we have to end the racism here in the US, and formally apologize for the practice of slavery?
What we need is to get out these, and other messages, as well as other messages not just to the African American community, but to EVERYONE.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
appalachiablue
(41,140 posts)calls for better 'community policing', holding officers who commit illegal acts accountable, and measures to diminish insecurity, poverty and discrimination in black communities by strengthening education and jobs, particularly among black youth age 17-20 where unemployment is 51%, an abomination.
senz
(11,945 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)Thank you, thank you, thank you RoccoR5955.
There is *no candidate* in this race, other than Bernie, who has been ARRESTED for supporting African American rights.
There is *no candidate,* other than Bernie, who has called for the United States to APOLOGIZE for slavery.
You cannot be racist, even a little bit racist, and do these things. I cannot even imagine Bernie Sanders being or feeling racist toward African Americans.
Nor can I imagine Bernie supporters being or feeling racist toward AAs. If anyone on Twitter or elsewhere pretends to be a Bernie supporter while making racist Tweets, then that person is working for someone other than Bernie.
This is the truth. It stands.
I think the OP's concern is misplaced.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'd like for that to happen.
senz
(11,945 posts)I put in long hours on his reelection campaign in 2011-12. I really like Barack Obama. And Michelle. And Malia. And Sasha. I think he's a very GOOD man in a thankless job, all the more thankless for the disgusting racism shown by his Republican enemies.
Your response to my comment sounded, to my ears, so cloyingly phony and dishonest that it brought on a wave of nausea. I'm sorry, but I'm finding it impossible to trust you. Something just doesn't add up. If you're sincere and we're somehow misreading each other, then maybe someday I'll see you in a better light. But for now, I think we'd best stay away from one another. Okay?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Nevertheless, I think the OP makes helpful points if we want Bernie to actually win.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)Raine1967
(11,589 posts)I appreciate the words you put down here at DU more than you know. 
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I was hoping others would feel the same.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)Thank you so much.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Thank you for pulling it out of that thread, I may have missed it otherwise.
Well said... 
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I hope this helps people understand what some of the problems are.
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)"I do not hate Bernie or his supporters. I actually prefer Bernie and do not like Hillary."
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I just do not think it's appropriate for me to spend time letting it be known constantly. I respect her and her accomplishments. If she is the nominee, I will show up and vote happily. I just do not have very warm feelings towards her. That is slowly changing because of what I see as sexism and constant bashing. I do not like that and it makes me want to defend my fellow Democrat.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)That being an ACTUAL Democrat...not all running are and therefore are not "default".
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I always vote straight ticket Demkcrat if at all possible. I do not see that changing.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)The one candidate in the Primary who proudly proclaimed himself not one even after announcing. I like Bernie....but running in our Primary without becoming one is the one major thing I take issue with him on....so he wants to run in OUR Primary because HE THINKS he can do better (with us)??? Its not JUST about can he win.....its all about how he thinks HE can persuade Congress and Senate better than WE can? I find that to be a weasly stance and have lost lots of respect for him as a result...If HE soooooo needs US and OUR support (and yes our money no doubt about that) Than the least he could do is proudly become one of us....as it is he may not be eligible in at least 2 States as a result. Thats bloody risky right there alone...and THAT is why he would be the absolute last candidate I would support running on this ticket...its like we are being asked to be a mistress not a wife....
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I like him better, but I would vite for her and that's all that really matters, right Vanilla?
Response to bravenak (Reply #122)
Post removed
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You are just so very wrong wrong wrong. I do not like how she talks, I do not think she goes deeply enough into issues, just glosses over things, she has been improving, but after her last campaign, I DO NOT LIKE HER. After Geraldine Ferarro went on her race baiting bullshit, I had hoped Hillary would apologize. She did not. Fuck that. We deserved an apology and we deserved better than that from a fellow LIBERAL. Now you know. I have more things but fuck trashing a fellow democrat on my thread.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Ridiculous thing.....You who voted straight Dem ticket just like I always have.....saying that is EXACTLY the same kind of arrogance and indifference to the facts that Sanders is showing.
You seem to think YOU know better than I and the vast majority of Democrats with that one statement. What on earth makes you think your instincts are superior to the vast majority of us Democrats...as apparently you are a "better judge of character" than all of THEM too!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I know how to talk to people and get a more positive response than you. Because I read people better.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)You think you only insulted me....but instead you insulted me and every other loyal Democrat...THAT is both you and his biggest flaws...you THINK you are superior Democrats....but the truth of the matter is....neither of you can win without us ...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It makes me uncomfortable.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Was no attack huh?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That is obvious from how combative you always are with posters. If you see it as an attack, that's fine, Vanilla.
When I say Bernie's supporters are being rude to me, all they have to do is point out posts like yours to prove your side is just as bad. You are not helping Hillary by jumping down my throat.
Cha
(297,275 posts)"I have a few suggestions: in order to steal votes Bernie needs Obma voters. Please let people know that it is very counterproductive to trash Obama in any way really. We are so used to black leaders being trashed and hated and despised that we as a group will tune out any bad mouthing and silently hate the person speaking. It really doesn't matter if it is just about SEVERE disappointment with his policies or seeing him as too far to the right; it turns off potential black voters. Speak instead on how Bernie will defend the gains Obama made and expand upon them. It will be more effective.
And, I think Bernie Sanders could learn from that, too.
Secondly, I really hate to see the way the poster just treated you because you wanted to vote for Bernie even though he's not a Democrat.
It's ridiculous as you know. I hate that combative style too.. it does no good, whatsoever. Oh yeah it gets them a hide if that's what they're going for.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
I was hoping that people would notice that advice about Obama. Respect for him really is a do or die issue. I can only to to inform and give advice. I cannot make anyone take it.
Cha
(297,275 posts) 
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)I'm sorry, it was meant for you, not Cha.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)This is actually directed to Bravenak, not Cha. Sorry, I messed up.
I was not aware of the affect so many Obama haters have had on the AA voting block, but now that I think about it, it makes sense. I love Obama and it appalls me to hear people who really can't stop ragging on him and refuse to acknowledge what an amazing man he is and how much he has accomplished in his time in office, despite the republican'ts.
I agree that Bernie supporters should stop trying to diss Obama if they want to win AA votes.
I am surprised at the feeling though, that you think Bernie is an Obama hater. I hope I'm reading that wrong. I don't think he hates him at all. He just disagrees with some of his policies, like TPP, and wars and economic issues. I think he knows Obama has done some very good things (I think I remember him praising Obama for a few of them, like Obamacare and the Iran nuke deal.
His policies are so different than many of Obamas, I'm not sure he can do much to sway your opinion, if you really see him that way.
I have another comment/question about something you said in your OP.
You said:
You are on my side in my fight for justice, and I am on your side in your fight for economic fairness.
You are asking for us to listen to you (and I agree, we need to) but this sounds tone deaf to me because you are not listening to us. We do fight for your social justice, and I agree it is a black issue, not a white one, but we all must fight for economic fairness...this is about all of us, not just whites. It's your issue too. But you seem to want to dismiss it as not important because social justice is all that really matters to you.
Maybe I can understand that, but I really wish you could see that economic fairness is good for all races, not just whites. It will not fix the social injustices that need to be dealt with, but it is a very necessary battle for all of us.
I hope you will take this in the way I meant it...in a reaching out and saying "I hear you...do you hear me?" Thank you for your OP. I hope it opens some hearts and minds.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Which voting block ALWAYS votes reliably dem, for candidates you support whether they like them or not? Black voters do. We always vote your way.
I do not think Bernie hates Obama. I think many of his supporters do. They are not following Bernie's lead and example of positive campaigning. He does not trash Democrats. He does not trash Hillary. He does not trash Obama. He KNOWS that it will hurt him with black voters.
Black folks got left behind by white liberals, they disinvested in our communities, allowed society to bring us to the point where 1/3 of us go to jail or prison in our lifetimes. Our children are treated unfairly at school, harassed, overly disciplined, our children are treated like shit from birth on. We want the same quality of life as you, and that means social justice is PRIMARY. Money doesn't help you in life if your children are murdered before they are grown, or jailed on a fake charge by dirty cops, or your husband is in jail leaving you all alone and poor,and that happens often. We are left to deal with this systemic racism and systematic abuse and told that we are wrong for demanding that our VERY LIVES come first. Before money, before ANYTHING else. You don't have these worries. Why the hell should WE just because OF our black skin? Why won't you just help us and ask nothing in return but that we be careful and have good lives? That is all we are asking. Whoever offers us that wins. And nobody wins without us. Think about it.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Money doesn't help you in life if your children are murdered before they are grown, or jailed on a fake charge by dirty cops, or your husband is in jail leaving you all alone and poor,and that happens often.
And I understand and accept that. I'm with you on that. But without changing the game of economic inequality and bringing decent paying jobs back home, many blacks that do make it out alive may still never have a quality of life. Both issues are important.
The social justice issue can be fought at the same time as the economic one, and Bernie will fight for both. Please believe me when I say I truly believe his honesty and integrity on this. I wish I could believe Hillary's campaign speeches, but I understand that campaign talk is just a lot of pandering and she may not live up to her promises.
I hope for your sake (for all AA's and other minorities) that if she wins, she lives up to them. Maybe the pressure driving her to the left will keep her open to that.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But we gave to trust that our issue will not be cast off to the side like always. So, it is up to Bernie and his campaign and supporters to makes sure they are compassionate and they listen and ask the communities what THEY think are good solutions and add to that. Bernie is GOING to wirk on your issues. You trust him to do that regardless. Time to add things to the agenda in order to build a coalition. Everyone needs to feel that their needs are being met. If you want black people to take up YOUR cause, that up theirs first. Then they can trust you.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Again though...economic inequality is "our" cause, not mine. I am not trying to pick on you. I get what you are saying that the AA community does not see it that way, and I understand why...because life comes first.
I wish there was more I could do to get your message out to change the way other DUers here talk about Obama and how nasty everyone is to each other. I can only take care of what I do and say.
I would like to add that I am so glad that social networking and technology is finally truly exposing the horrors of the system that blacks live with every day. I mean I always knew it but until it hits you in the face (like it does for your race every day) it's just hard to comprehend. I think a lot of people (lots of us white people) are ready to march and fight with you about BLM and other minorities.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Maybe Bernie is unaware of it? Maybe his volunteers can read this thread at the next meetings are find a way to use it to help him. Just send it around and see if it can change a few minds at a time. Or one mind at a time. Could end up being a butterfly effect and half the folks will appreciate what I say and it will spread.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)But you've gotten a lot of raves on this OP, so hopefully others will do this.
I definitely kicked and rec'd it to help keep this conversation going.
Hey, good luck going back to school...I know you enjoy it. I loved it too.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I hope you guys discuss this op in your volunteer groups for Bernie's campaign.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)I'm afraid I cannot attend events like that, but if I can think of a way to share this with local Bernie groups, I will try.
You are very eloquent. I wish you great success in your life. You deserve it. You have courage, wisdom, and grace under fire.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)by his dividing the party vote. He has said this and he means it.
senz
(11,945 posts)Well you can hang on to that hope. But did you know that Joe Biden is thinking of entering the race? That right there might threaten your candidate's "default" status. Don't worry, though. Maybe some people might try to suggest that he, too, is racist. It's always worth a try when one is truly desperate.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)From her OP:
She has simply been trying to explain why Hillary is currently being supported by Black people as a group, and what might be done to move that support to Bernie.
Oh, and Hillary is not my candidate, either.
senz
(11,945 posts)Can't even entertain the possibility that her campaign is losing steam, her poll numbers dropping, Democrats who find Bernie too new and unusual are now looking fondly on Biden who is looking fondly on running?
That sounds like a powerful attachment, bravenak.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Funny how you think I'M attached to Hillary. I feel like she is being forced on me by folks like you. Don't even like her, but am constantly accused of it. Fine, I will vote for her in the primary if it makes you happy. Done!! Happy now?
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)Telling people it behooves Democrats not to speak disrespectfully of Obama if they are trying to attract AAs to their candidate isn't telling them to shut up! He will be the sitting president throughout the election year and the Rs will be attacking him nonstop and saying wildly outrageous things. Any Dem criticism would need to be constructive in tone and respectful of his position.
I'm wondering what the Biden talk of late means in terms of where Obama stands re a desired successor. Could his hand be in this? Would Biden be considering this without Obama's blessing? Does Biden have credibility in the AA community from being Obama's VP if he should jump in, that would be greater than the current candidates?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Just pass my op around among your fellow supporters and maybe it will help change one mi d at a time. Best we can do.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)I think it makes a great OP, and I hope that we're all listening.
I'm glad you made it an OP; at # 354, I probably never would have seen it. My old 'puter keeps crashing, and can't seem to load all of really long threads.
I strongly agree that, not just Bernie supporters or white liberals, but ALL people of conscience should be ACTIVELY supporting you in the fight for racial justice. When it comes to the primaries, I've noted that the BLM action at NN was successful. All the candidates will now say "Black Lives Matter" and name names.
That, I know, is only a first step. Candidates need to follow up on that with specific policies to address specific racial justice issues. I'm hearing them talk about it. I'm guessing that the black community would like more, and more specific, plans of action.
Can you tell us what you think about what the candidates have offered up so far?
As far as the issue of Sanders supporters being "mean," etc., I have to say that I don't honestly "get" it.
One of the reasons, I'm sure, is that I don't see very many threads about HRC. I put "HRC," "Hillary," and "Clinton" in as terms to hide threads. I know what she's doing on the campaign trail. I can read about her in the news if I want to. She's not ever going to earn my support, not without becoming someone she's not. That doesn't mean that I "hate" her. I simply don't support her political self. I don't need to argue about her.
So whatever is happening in most Clinton threads, I'm not seeing it. I am seeing, though, the same kind of behavior we're accused of happening in Sanders threads.
I've learned a great deal by listening. I think you make a good point about Obama. That's a really loaded topic for me, and I don't know that right here is the best place to discuss it. What I'll say is that, regardless of my own take, I GET the Black community' support for him, and don't begrudge it. I'll point out that Sanders himself speaks very positively about Obama, even when disagreeing with him. He spends more time mentioning his agreements than disagreements.
I also have seen what you describe, the defensive shut down of conversation. In this case, and in life. I've reacted that way myself many times.
I hope you, and others, will keep talking. I'll be listening, and I hope the rest will, too.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I appreciate the way Sanders has listened to us and changed the way he discusses issues. He still has a way to go but I think he has been improving daily since netroots.
For Hillary's part, she listens to what is going on and jumps right in to say the right thing. Some may call it pandering; maybe it is, but it is working regardless. People LIKE to have their issues raised up and discussed. Also, having Bill go around on his apology tour has done ALOT of good. Some may laugh and say 'Yeah right, black folks won't forgive him for mass incarcerations!', but they are wrong. We will. We remember the gang wars going on at the time and we ALL overreacted; even us in the black community. Many supported the crime bill, even among black folks. We hate crime too, and violence proliferates in our communities. Our children were dying; soldiers in a street war. I lost a few people myself, in my teenage years I joined a gang and hung out, I saw drive bys, watched friends being shot, went to many funerals, witnessed the crack epidemic and had family lost to drugs. See, we have to forgive him to forgive ourselves. We are quick to forgive and hope for a better future.
Now, as far as mean supporters go, there are a few that do the damage for the rest of you. I wish people would keep an eye out and not support the most over the top supporters. I have had some terribly racist things said to me by his supporters. It really hurt me deeply and made me shut down, lessened my excitement for Bernie and made me feel like an outsider. I thought we all wanted the same things, but I was mistaken. I'm big on feelings. They are very important to me.
I am an observer of human nature, I watch people and how they behave. I also have an addiction to reading so I have no one on ignore and read nearly every post on thread that have more than 25 replies. I find you all fascinating and learn so much here that I just cannot stop reading. That is probably why I see more of the nastiness.
When the primary started I felt that Hillary supporters were being nasty. They calmed down quite a bit and now Bernie's are the ones being that way. To me it's sad, because I had so much hope and felt very excited to have a candidate with positions I loved. This has made me kinda miserable.
Thank you for understanding our support for the President.
that Sanders says that we can all do a better job with; it's obvious, yet we still don't always get it:
"If we stand together, we will win."
"We" need to expand the framework of "we."
You are so correct about feelings. They trump logic every time. They do that for all of us. It helps, at least, it helps me, to hear you talk about that. It's so easy to forget that MY feelings aren't the center of the universe, even when I know better, because, well, because they are what I feel.
I also have to admit that you are more forgiving than I. This is something that I've struggled with all of my life. I can "forgive" on the surface, but I never forget, and that surface forgiveness is really just a band-aid over scars that don't go away. Forgiveness and trust...my two biggest issues in life.
Let's keep the conversation going. It can't help but be a healthy thing, regardless of political outcomes.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But I have to look ahead. I also have trust issues. But I WANT to trust and forgive. I have to hope things improve. Otherwise why even bother trying?
I hope this leads to more dicussions.
Longer quote on same subject:
". . . As I said earlier, this campaign is not about me. This campaign is about you and three hundred million other Americans. And what I've also said, time and time again, no president can do it alone. We need a grass roots political movement of which I hope you will become part of. Do not let our opponents divide us up by race, do not let them divide us up by sexual orientation, do not let them divide us up by gender or by the country of our origin! . . . When we come together as a nation, when we are prepared to stand up to the greed of wall street and corporate America, when we are prepared to tell them that this great country belongs to every man woman and child and not just to a handful of billionaires, when we have the courage to do that, there is nothing we cannot accomplish! Let's do it, thank you very much!"
For an earlier OP I did on this subject
http://www.democraticunderground.com/128030288
And I agree that feelings are a key part of politics. Some politicians are mostly about feelings and some all about policy. I like Bernie's policy positions, I think they are great and he is great and laying them out clearly. But I do think he could try to warm up a little, connecting to people is part of policy, you cannot accomplish these things in a vacuum, we need to get people working together!
senz
(11,945 posts) 
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Yes, there are a lot of tone deaf posts, even hostile ones, but on Twitter, idiots who at least claim to support Sanders have been attacking prominent black Twitter users ever since the NN15 event. Occam's razor says that at least some portion thereof really do support Sanders, but they're doing horrible damage to him by acting like assholes to black people who were fairly neutral towards Sanders until they started getting attacked by people who seem to be his supporters. The whole BernieSoBlack hashtag came about simply to make fun of those people, not Bernie himself, but people with a poor sense of humour took it as another attack on him, and simply stepped up the condescension or the hostility.
It's been painful to watch.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)To be honest, I don't really understand Twitter. I am not a complete techno dinosaur, but the Twitter account I opened when it arrived on the seen those years back remains unused; I never understood what to do with it, or why, and now don't even remember how to get there. I understand that I'm an outlier in that, though. If I were a Twitter user, I'd offer up support for BLM, in general and for the action at NN. It might not have been pleasant, but it accomplished something good.
Bravenak was talking about feelings, and about being defensive. I think this is true for many Sanders supporters, as well. They felt attacked and got defensive, and haven't been able to come out of that place.
Others have listened, and are moving forward, just as Sanders is. I have a lot of other thoughts, and feelings, about the political and racial divisions, in the nation and in the Democratic Party. I haven't talked about them on DU, and probably won't, because I feel like they'd be more likely to feed those divisions than heal them. I'd rather listen, learn, and chime in when I've got something constructive to say and know how to say it in a way that will be taken constructively.
Probably, the best way to move forward for any group that feels attacked is to listen and then reach out. I think that can happen for most of us. At least across racial divides. I don't know that it's going to happen across the Clinton/Sanders divide; I'm really shocked that it's this ugly, this early. That's why I'm trying to stay completely out of Clinton threads of any kind. I just don't want to feed it.
I've always admitted to being an idealist; I've called myself a "defiant idealist," because of the derision that is heaped upon idealism. I'm never going to apologize for that, though. I really think that we get a lot farther by going after the ideal, even though we don't get there, than be defending the status quo or accepting mediocrity.
I can also admit to being somewhat naive, as so much of the mainstream political process doesn't fit within my ideals, and I've rejected it.
MADem
(135,425 posts)there you are. Then you have to follow people, and you can read their feeds. There are lots of good newsfeeds, and celebrities, and politicians, you can follow, and you can also follow personal friends if you go that route. Anthony Weiner got in trouble on that score.
I use twitter to get news and things like that--I have no "personal" friends on it. I use it like a newswire.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the Ferguson protesters since the protests began, and I see nothing but support for them. You can block people on twitter who are nothing more than haters, one think I like about it, and get support from reasonable people for the issues that matter to you.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I don't mess with it much and don't really understand how to use it productively (i.e., how to get maximum information for minimum time investment - got time to advise me?), so I appreciate finding out about things like this.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Because it can cause my whole computer to creep to a halt at times. I basically mostly just followed various accounts and read what came through. I've actually done 4 tweets now, although I think for the first few weeks I didn't do any. Mostly I'm just interested in getting news I wouldn't otherwise get. I've dropped a couple of the most prolific posters I was following, not out of ideology, but simply because they were drowning me, tweeting every minute or two for hours on end, and making it hard for me to follow others. Unless there's a way to sort followed folks into multiple twitter streams that I haven't discovered yet, it seems like you'd very quickly reach the point where you couldn't follow everyone you were interested in without missing an awful lot. I'd like to be able to have a 'twitter-unions' stream, a 'twitter-professional orgs' stream, a 'twitter-activists' stream and so on. Right now they're all in one big mix.
Response to LWolf (Reply #11)
Name removed Message auto-removed
LWolf
(46,179 posts)nc4bo
(17,651 posts)God dang folks, please listen to what bracenak is trying sooooooooooooooooooooooooo hard to explain.
It is so important!!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)I am too preoccupied with "offline issues" this am to be able to concentrate on this but look forward to reading it later on. I always enjoy , apppreciate, and read and respect your posts even if some of what you say bothers me and I find bizarre ("you better like obama or else "we" all hate you and will hate the politicians you support).
Yeah. It's weird but liking Obama will get you black votes and friends. 
mmonk
(52,589 posts)It has to do with powers that now work on policy for the party as a whole. They will not allow the people to be protected from corporate malfeasance on a large scale. Think tanks now are mostly concerned with challenges of reform that will not allow their free reign. They have become too powerful. It takes a large coalition to have any affect on that. They will divide it up in anyway they can. It's not ideology but where power lies. Our message is not exclusionary but the opposite. We aren't saying all their candidates have no good ideas. And thanks for your heartfelt post.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
mopinko
(70,112 posts)i think the obvious affection and respect that hc and obama have for each other is a powerful signal to black voters. i know it is to me. (old white lady, staunch o fan)
a campaign of- the other guy sucks, etc, etc,- is NEVER a winning strategy. it motivates only the knee jerk hateful, and those are not our voters.
expanding voting, and protecting voting rights is our only hope.
and respecting voters and their choices is essential.
lets hope bernie supporters take your message to heart bravenak.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)And bookmarked for further reading.
DLnyc
(2,479 posts)I appreciate you laying out actual issues without getting sucked into the cycle of name calling and retribution.
Your post helps me understand, really confirms a feeling I have been having, something about if you are in a group that is being actively persecuted, you might tend to lean more toward a tried and true liberal, rather than a new, somewhat radical face.
I absolutely agree we Bernie supporters need to get out and really listen to people in the African American and Hispanic communities.
It may encourage you some to hear that after our Bernie meeting last Wednesday, which happened to attract a group of old lefties, frankly all white, the first activity which we seem to have come up with is setting up a table to do flyering and voter registration. But, unlike our habit of the last couple of decades, instead of putting the table on the main street in our neighborhood, it's going right in the nearby "project" housing, trying to reach out to, and listen to, the poorer, more likely to be African American and/or Hispanic people who live there.
I think if you look past the rhetoric which sometimes goes back and forth here, you will see that this seems to be Bernie's response too: "Okay, we're not doing so well with African Americans and Hispanics, let's listen, respond, try to bring more into the fold."
Really, IMHO, the very basic bottom line is that real change is going to require real coalition building. The Republicans, the oligarchs, the multinational corporations are all glad to see us divide up and split along racial, ethnic, gender, sexual orientation lines (all very powerful emotional things). It's our job as Democrats, if we really want a better world, to listen, respond and grow past these wedges that can drive us apart!
Thank you for your efforts towards productive discussion and action!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm glad you find my posts helpful.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I so appreciate that you keep trying. I doubt I could do it, and I am grateful to you.
What you say is the same thing I hear locally, and I'm not social at all, just happen to know a few people who will tell me political things. As a Bernie supporter, the things I hear with regard to PoC's votes scares me.
Here's what resonated with me:
Minority communities are big on respect and appreciate attention paid to the issues that affect our communities specifically. We also want our vote earned and for the candidates to come to us and ask for our votes.
From what I heard, that didn't happen where I am. I realize the campaign has snowballed, and I'm sure they're snowed under. But it's something for them to think about in the future.
Bernie's supporters HAVE to listen to the members of the African American community and bite their tongues and figure out how to use the information we provide effectively.
I've been trying to do that and hope I have been at least somewhat successful.
I fear that the active dislike for the man that many African Americans respect and love (honestly, we place him at the top of the list of All Time Greatest African Americans, above Martin Luther King Jr and MalcolmX, he to us is the all time greatest African American) is harming Bernie tremendously. We have an emotional connection to him, no amount of logic and policy discussions will change that.
We know the Clintons. We know they made terrible decisions. But when supporters beat us up with those facts, it shuts down the conversation and everyone retreats to their previously held positions.
I haven't been keeping stats, but I have the perception that there's been quite a bit of telling people how to feel going on. In my experience, that never works.
Thank you again.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm glad that you are finding success and I hope that your attitude spreads through the ranks. I hope people can read my words and try, like you are, to use what I say to help out their candidate. I will vote for the nominee, but we need to give others a good reason to stabs in those long ass lines because they are EXCITED about the candidate. We need a strong showing on election day.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)
sellitman
(11,606 posts)I only hope Bernie gets to read your words before it's too late. As a Civil Rights Marcher long ago before it was in fashion I've always felt Bernie was supportive of the Black Community. I can see now he needs not to rest on his Laurels and go out and prove it to the world he will build on the good that our President has worked for these past 7 years or so.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That would be awesome!!
appalachiablue
(41,140 posts)#143 illustrates some of how he has not rested on 'his Laurels' since college activism and the 1963 March on Washington. But perhaps you know all this.
jalan48
(13,869 posts)He has been the one dealing with the issues being raised by BLM for several years now. Acknowledging and embracing his efforts and successes is critical if we are to move forward as a society.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)is nearer. God knows something has to be done now.
jalan48
(13,869 posts)Hillary and Bernie can just talk and say the right things at this point.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)First of all, I am amazed at your extraordinary patience and compassion. And thank you for being such an excellent teacher - I have learned so much from you!
There is nothing for me to add to what you've written, except to echo your request that people truly listen to what you've said.
We are so lucky to have you here on DU!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
I keep trying because I am hopeful. I still believe in Hope and Change!
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)I read that and had to stop and think: do I still believe in that, too?
And I took a look at my easy cynicism - at 65 years old, I've been disappointed with politicians often enough throughout the years - but I realize that cynicism is just another luxury that a white person like me can indulge in, with no particular consequences to my personal life.
No, cynicism won't do. Apathy won't do. Hopelessness won't do. Another lesson I'll take from you.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)When I feel cynical I remember the slaves in the fields praying for freedom. Some died waiting, many did, but here we are. Free at last. We can build on that hope of my ancestors. We can change the world. If we care to.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)I think that your suggestions are a very good starting point.
I, for instance, have been pretty critical of Obama for not going far enough on many things, but I have to say that the way you suggesting approaching his legacy is much more constructive in relation to the Black community. Something I will be much more mindful of.
Your other suggestions ring true as well.
Thanks again for your perspective, it really does help bridge the racial gap I see (tragically) opening up within the liberal parts of the party.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I want us to win. Hell, I want BERNIE to win.
Duval
(4,280 posts)Your OP made me aware of issues gone unnoticed. Thank you.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
procon
(15,805 posts)I agree with most of what you say. I also want better Democratic candidates. It's my choice to remain unaligned for now. There are pluses and minuses with all political candidates, and I heavily weigh their competitiveness and effectiveness in being able to actually accomplish their stated proposals in the face of a rigid and uncompromising opposition.
His avid supporters aren't helping him and insisting that he can -- and must -- do better. I worry that Sanders won't last because he is too narrowly focused on a few cherished issues and isn't working on a broader range of interests to remain competitive, let alone achieve a victory. I want him to do better, to stretch and be more than he is, and I am concerned that he doesn't seem to have the determination to step out of his comfort zone. I want him to expand his POV and pull out all the stops to include a wider range of issues that concern the larger demographic voter groups.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I hope that this will help open up a dialog that can continue. In a positive way that will help us win and grow our coalition at the same time.
blue neen
(12,321 posts)Thank you bravenak. 
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
TDale313
(7,820 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)and support this thread.
Well done.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I also will be voting for him if he is the nominee. I am a loyal Democrat.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)protection.....
bravenak
(34,648 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Be well, safe, and happy.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)(Context" I have been a huge believer in Bernie Sanders since the 1990's.)
I understand why President Obama is loved by the black community. I also understand how ingrained and difficult racism is. I grew up in the 60's, and know both the progress that has been made, and the problems that remain.
Having said that, I have to tell you that your contention makes a rel discussion of issues (and real campaigning) difficult.
I'm a white guy and I love President Obama. Among other things, I fought for him here on DU back in the day (primaries). In many ways, his view of the world resonates with mine very closely. I often have heard him speak and felt like "yes he is speaking for me."
But he has also pissed me off at times, because he has crossed line that oppose my fundamental beliefs. I strongly disagreed with his approach to healthcare. I didn't like his flirtation with the GOP on Social Security and the "deficit." I think the TPP is going to be a disaster that going to undermine the economy and out democracy once it kicks in. And his support for it is both baffling and angering.
I also like Hillary as a person, and recognize the good things she has done. But she also represents what I believe is the worst aspects of the current Democratic heirarchy -- The fact that she moves in the World of Corporate Robber Barons and Wall St. and represents their interests and worldview in too many ways.
Now here's the dilemma. How, according to your contention, am I (and we, ie Bernie supporters) supposed to criticize the TPP without seeming like I am attacking the beloved President? Should I just violate everything I believe in and ignore it? Likewise with Hillary and issues like Democratic collaboration with Goldman Sachs over the years.
And I don't think social and economic justice are an either/or proposition. They do not overlap in every way. But they do overlap in many ways. ALL ethnic groups and other social distinctions would do a lot better with an economy that is oriented to the interests of the middle, working and poor classes. Housing, jobs, consumer rights, etc. effect everyone. It also address many so-called social issues.
Yes, combating racism and its impacts -- both institutional and defacto -- is a key issue. But it is possible to both see the interconnection with economics, and deal with the other aspects at the same time.
Personally, I would hope that individual people of all "groups" can think for themselves, in addition to the social factors that form us. Going by your logic, I should be automatically supporting and loving Hillary because we're both blonde WASPS of a similar age. I would automatically reject the argument of a black progressive because he might say bad things about her, or some other white politician.
I brought up Dr. Ben Carson to you yesterday You said "we" have rejected him. I don't know why if I apply your theory. First of all does that imply all blacks are politically monolithic? What's the difference of criticizing that African American politician and criticizing President Obama on the substance of their views? Am I allowed to criticize Carson but not Obama?
I am honestly asking how we are supposed to deal with this dilemma. My own feeling is that the real way to not be racist (and not sexist in Clinton's case) is to treat politicians the same no matter what their race creed, color, etc. When Obama does well, I'll praise him. When he does something I disagree with, criticize that.
In other ways how do we deal with legitimate sensitivities without stifling healthy, honest debate? How do campaigns address important issues, no matter who that may involve criticizing?
I dunno.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It is not the same for you. Most leaders in this nation hve been white. We ONLY have Obama. There is really nothing you can do but bite your tongue hard as hell if yiu want to win. Black people have been doing that with White democratic leaders FOREVER. For once, y'all gotta hush.
You have to let go of your anger about things you thought Obama was going to do but didn't actually do. Look at the shit black folks have been through. We look at you guys crazy wondering how the hell are you madder than we are. We think you guys turned on him very quickly in a way you'd never do to a white liberal, fair or not, that is the perception. The level of anger towards him just feeds the narrative that white progressives are NOT our allies really, and just use us as pawns and turn on us when we step off the plantation. In order to stop feeding into it, you guys have to stfu for once. Otherwise black folks will just remain with the default candidate. Fair or foul, it is a big ass turn off and is KILLING you with black voters. Read what MalcolmX said about white liberals being worse than republicans. We know we are being used. We have aoways known and we are tired of sinking further and falling farther behind while white liberals worry about THEIR paychecks; we worry about our children making it home alive. Sorry, but our issues are much more important to us than the oligarchy. Hell, we see YOU as a part of the system that oppresses us.
Of course black folks run the spectrum politically. But we stick together.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)I am not going to "shut the fuck up." because if we do, then the status quo will just continue on its present course.
And that's not good for anyone.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Especially if what you are saying is making you lose. If biting your tongue will get your candidate into the White House, the smart thing to do is stfu.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Just run an endless tape loop that says: I love President Obama. And I love Hilary. Please vote for Bernie."
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Rather than complain about Obama, respect his accomplishments and say how Bernie will expand/build upon them. And stop being so angry and defensive; it is not helpful. If you want to win you have to act like winners. Losers trash other candidates because they are insecure, winners are confident that they will meet their goals.
Really, to win black votes you have to understand black voters. We like Obama. We do not like people badmouthing them. You wanna steal us from Hillary? Don't be a snob. Be nice to us. Support our movements. We go with the folks who TREAT us KINDLY. We know that as long as we have a Democrat, we can breathe easier, no matter who the Democrat is. These differences between candidates that seem as wide as the grand canyon, are not as big of a deal to us. We are already stressed out; the last thing we need are lofty academic lectures or snark. The Hillary folks are nice to us. You have to be nice too or we go to her.
It is not about you, your feelings, or your ideology. It is about putting Bernie in the White House.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)When you respond to a sincere attempt to have a good faith dialogue with "shut the fuck up" until after the election, I can't take you seriously. Nor am I going to defend the fact that I am white, and therefore-- in your opinion -- incapable of understanding the plight of people who are not exactly like me.
And quite honestly, I don't agree with your assessment of blacks as monolithic or unable to comprehend the difference between legitimate debate and attacking a well-liked politician.
You're just applying another version of the same limitations on discussion on issues as the conservative Democrat and Republicans.
I prefer to give people more credit than that. If you want to call that condescending or "lecturing" then be my guest.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)This isn't personal.You don't know me. I don't know you. Don't really need to.
But I will say this. It's not a matter of pride. But I do resent to being told yet again that raising core economic issues is a no-no. And that progressives, liberals whatever you want to call it, should shut up one more time because we don't "understand."
So your little snipe is nothing new. Usually that has come from conservative Democrats with either a vested interest in perpetuating the problems, or who were afraid to "alienate" those swing voters we need to attract.The only difference in what you're saying is there is now an entire ethnic group we have to avoid "alienating" by pointing this stuff out.
I've cared (and taken action as I could) about the issues that Sanders is talking about since the 1970's. I have watched as the economy was systematically distorted and undermined -- to the disadvantage of everyone who is not in the top percentage -- over more than 30 years. This shit DOES matter to EVERYONE who is not wealthy. In real day-to-day terms.
And I have seen the Democrats participating in that process. Either by ignoring the problems or colluding with the GOP.
And for all that time, I have seen those, like Sanders and we small grassroots people, who tried to raise these issues dismissed and marginalized all along the way. And when we tried to warn about the avoidable consequences basically told to "shut the fuck up because voters won't understand or like what you're saying. "
What offends me about your response is that I sincerely tried to have an honest discussion with you, and was told -- yet again -- that we should just shut the fuck up. Also that as "privileged" white person I couldn't possibly understand the real problems.
Well, I know this will sound condescending, but when I was in high school I read the Autobiography of Malcom X, and it was one of the things that shaped my views. (One of the things, there were many others.)
Sure there are things I (we) have to learn about how to frame issues, etc. But I think I'll look to people with a somewhat broader view than the rigid answer you express for that.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Just do not expect the rest of us to see it as the most important issue.
I can see you just want a fight, but I am not in the mood to give it to you.
You guys ARE alienating black voters with your anger and dismissiveness and unwillingness to let other people speak and listen. You cannot hear us if you are busy doing all thectalking and taking up all the space. We will just go where our voices are wanted and where folks will stfu long enough to listen to our urgent life or death message.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)I wasted pecious time trying in good fauth to discuss something with you, and you exhibit "anger and dismissiveness" yourself.
There are a lot of people who actually do have alternative ideas that are worth listening to, but you are not one of them.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Sorry you did not want to engage in productive conversation. Bye.
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)Thank you for the thoughtful, articulate posts.
Please don't feel as if they were a waste of time. I'm sure that I'm not the only person who learned a little something from that interaction.
senz
(11,945 posts)
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)you're guaranteeing a conversion in the black community and a Sanders win?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And yes. I guarantee you will at least cut into her lead significantly. Cannot guarantee a win. It is unlikely at this point. But, these are the major complaints that I read and hear and discuss with my fellow african Americans. They have no very serious issues with Sander's policy, but, the TPP has much higher support among AA's than here on DU. That is something to keep in mind too.
840high
(17,196 posts)a Sanders win. She reads people. I just wasted 10 minutes on this OP.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Sad you did not enjoy my writing. I really put alot of effort into it.
procon
(15,805 posts)This is exactly what my BIL said - the crazy lovesick black guy who married my sis and found himself surrounded by my mostly rapidly rightwing family -- it's like me badmouthing them is OK, but not for the non-family outsiders, so silence is the better part of valor in the face of a strong kinship. He does the STFU routine until we are safely out of earshot.
Candidates have one job; selling their brand to get elected. Their loyal supporters have one job; to represent their candidate in the most positive and favorable light possible, and to do so in a manner that will not alienate and turn off potential voters, but rather convince those who are aligned with other Democratic camps to join their winning team. If they can't rise to that level, then STFU is the best way to protect their own candidate.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I do it all the time.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)what I opposed and looked in their direction to change course from?
I like, often agree with, and support Sanders but it isn't about having my particular mascot or being in love with him. It is entirely besides the point for him to just hold the office and become the face of the same system but rather it is about changing the course.
There is no benefit to Sanders if the idea is just to keep on keeping on and he is more useful in the Senate to get the country even somewhat on track.
What does it profit a person to gain the world and lose their soul? What good is to have your candidate elected if they adopt the policies that are undesirable as the cost of admission?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You will not get everything you want, but if your guys wins you at least get some of it.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)fracking loving, surveillance state championing, "free" trading, TeaPubliKlan appeasing, drug warring, war criminal whitewashing, type to "win" then why bother I can just throw up a Ready for Hillary sticker and go along with whatever the establishment prefers to doomsday.
This isn't a discussion about choosing an avatar, a clone of Sanders with a different set of ideas with an unswerving predilection for the "wisdom" of Larry Summers along with Hillary and the worst of the Clinton crew and utterly without any articulably valid reason Arnie Duncan, Clapper, and Petraeus is of exactly zero interest or benefit nor worth any effort to advance in a primary.
What do I need with Heath bar wrappers on a 3 Musketeers. If I wanted a damn 3 Musketeers the shelves have no shortage, I didn't want the Heath for the paper I'm fixing to toss in the trash.
Of course nobody gets 100% of what they want, there will be compromises when dealing with other people but the point is to at least start the negotiations at another position. Maybe I can only get a weak but similar Skor, maybe it is Chocolate with toffee chips.
Hell, maybe I end up with a Snickers or even a sadsack Milky Way if that is the way the cookie crumbles as an actual compromise breaks that way but to tell me the compromise is I get my choice of wrapper then I'm left wondering what is going on that anyone would think that was of any value.
If all I can have is 3 Musketeers then just give it to me wrapper and all but I reject the notion and instead will fight for what I think is right because the fight is worth having even in defeat and it's not to be an asshole but because Obama cannot make wrongheaded neoliberalism right for me nor will it change the demonstrated outcomes of those policies to something they don't intend.
Plus, this line of reasoning isn't even ideological based. There is no honest and heartfelt argument about the policies opposed themselves. In fact no argument of the merits in and of themselves at all.
The only play ideology has in the discussion is embracing one that I know doesn't work, is often detrimental, and significantly empowers the worst and most powerful wrongheaded motherfuckers on the face of the Earth in reverence to a politician that keeps a lot of vipers at arms reach or closer.
I first voted for Obama to repudiate some of the very things I'm being advised to embrace because he did in order to "win" and that doesn't and I think shouldn't fly with anyone because it isn't rational and similar thinking has led straight to disaster way more often than not throughout history.
You're a wise beyond years person, redact the names and situation and tell me it is a logical thought process that should be standard operating procedure.
This isn't an ideological discussion but rather close as I can compare it to is a religious one. I don't need to come to worship.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Think about where you are on the spectrum. I am so much farther to the left than most black folks that I expect absolutely nothing that I want to EVER pass. The best we are going to get is somebody similar, and jack all will pass our congress. Yes. I am asking you to fake the funk and bite tongues and lure black voters from Hillary with me. I know it sucks.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)There would be no distinction from Clinton and no reason to be opposing her.
The long term is worse, in an effort to "win" embracing or being silent on bad policy means buying it and owning it, abandoning even the space to voice opposition to what is known to be wrong in the first place.
Maybe you are arguing put on the show and then just do the opposite while giving Obama the credit for how we are moving forward forcing him to either accept it or call bullshit on the con. Not my style and feels in the neighborhood of condescending and the wrong way to operate but maybe my hair was a mess because my mother didn't exactly know how to deal with it or something (and yes she could fuck it up, had me with a Richard Simmons do one time but since my sisters' were fine I think it was more a boy thing and an experimental personality) and I just don't quite "get it" and am "out of the mainstream".
Sure black folks can be conservative but not usually Turd Way flavor but really most often more socially like not too hip on gay rights or abortion, can be dangerously and ironically fall for the tough on crime and drug worrier crap.
However, hand wringing about taxes, too much regulation, and government spending or in a panic about "terror" have never been really big that I've ever seen.
The Turd Way isn't any tip of the hat to a lot of black people's conservative and/or religious streaks, it is an appeal to Raygun Democrats, softer TeaPubliKlans, and the more secular right libertarians include corporate bigwigs and those running the banks and Wall Street, all or predominately white folks.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I understand you sticking to your principles. I really don't see how the interests that social justice advocates propose conflict or hinder the ability to get at least somewhere near your goals. Nothing at all will be done unless a coalition is built. And in order to get enough people, it cannot be an ideoligically pure bubble where everyone agrees on everything.
It is not a conjob to actively listen and add important issues to your agenda to gain allies. You and I both care extremely about social justice. We are black. It is a given for us that we MUST continue the struggle not only for economic equlity or at least some form of justice, and we know that money will not fix it. It will make the shit easier to swallow but it will not take away that fear; and eating shit is still eating shit, even if you fry it up with onions and potliquor. Why should we have a poorer quality of life just because of our skin color? We should be able to walk proud, defend our rights verbally and have the same level of privilege as our similarly financed white citizens.
Not everyone has the ability to empathize and even think about the differences in quality of life lived. They should. In order to see the issues from our perspective they have to listen more than they lecture. They have to come down in the dirt and leave Marx on their nightstand.
Not everyone is going to love Obama, but I know that when folks badmouth him in a group of black people, they get the side eye and maybe cussed out. I have seen it come to blows. If people are so emotionally invested in that wonderful man, speaking negatively of him is just about the worst thing you can do. I didn't speak to my landlord for a month because he said 'I'm mad at Obama for freeing the Gays!' I'm still not quite over it. He gets so much unfair stupid ass nonsence 'omg look at the muslim no papers having african commie' bullshit that nobody will even listen pass the point where one says 'I'm disappointed in Obama - ', they just won't. Especially church people (my uncle runs a church in Los Angeles), they have oil paintings of Obama right next to Black Jesus and MLKjr, and I know you know that. You have to. You're black. It is unavoidable.
I still suggest trying to say how bernie will build on Obama's accomplishments and avoid things that will turn away potential voters. Most voters do not vote based on rational discourse and a well rounded view and serious knowledge of the political issues of our day. They vote based on how they FEEL. And they feel defensive over him.
Many did not understand the reasons why Bernie has issues with black voters. This was my attemp- my final attempt to bridge the gap and try to bring more positive discussions forth from this gloomy place. I really am very good at understanding people and how they operate on an emotional level. I'm an INFP personality type. Really weird people but good at observation and empathizing. I can convince most people to come my way if I try hard enough to understand what motivates them. I really should work on campaigns. Bernie would aporeciate my opinions I think. You guys should send this to him.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)and I'd like to hear Bravenak's response to it.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)...and I wasted all my time writing my post.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Oh well, you tried.
Duppers
(28,125 posts)well reasoned post and not a waste of your time if folks like me gleam something from it.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)Bernie has potential but work to do.
The linked NYT article below highlights, in my mind a distinct difference between Sanders and President Obama. In his speech to the Urban League, he referred to the "save our cities" program as "your theme" & to Latinos in another speech as "your people".
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/01/us/politics/hillary-clinton-hits-jeb-bush-first-and-hard-in-speech-on-race.html?_r=0
These "gaffes" if you will are a far cry from Obama's naturally inclusive approach.
I'm not saying, in any way, Sanders has any problem personally with Latinos or blacks. What I am saying is this:
I'm a middle aged white guy that voted for President Obama three times; once in a primary and in the two generals. There were plenty of candidates who shared similar policy positions. With President Obama, it felt then and still does today like we're all on the same team. I was "in" and it didn't matter if I was an old white guy. He certainly never put me in a group labelled "you people".
I wish all the candidates well and hope they all remember that, as in life, politics is all about learning.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I was sad to feel left out of berniemania, but I felt unwanted or uncomfortable. I think it is important to connect with all communities. Hopefully things will start to improve.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)A lot.
marble falls
(57,097 posts)delivered particularly to the AA community has been embarrassing and disappointing. Bernie needs to dig down and figure out why his message is not getting through to the part of the electorate that arguably has the most to gain from Bernie Sanders' record and platform.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He can do it, but he needs his support to follow his lead. Many have already started, I hope more will follow.
marble falls
(57,097 posts)start looking a lot more like the GOP and we'll have our own versions of the Tea Party and Libertarians (would ours be suitably misnamed as the Conservatarians? Libertarians are Republicans who want to smoke pot legally, would Conservatarians want to grow pot legally but only for medicinal reasons?) and we surely don't want that.
Because then it'll be two clown cars. It starts with pandering to 'conservatives' and ends with condescending to the 'lesser' among us.
But I have no doubt. Bernie will do the right thing and at the very least we'll stay together and keep the clown car out of the White House.
How does a Biden/Sanders ticket sound to you as covering most people's doubts and attracting the most voters so we can get the problems with Congress a good at start at unseating; which we can finish in 2020.
I think Congress is more important than which Democrat gets to be POTUS.
artislife
(9,497 posts)fbc
(1,668 posts)Too much of this seems like we are treating certain groups of voters like children who need their treat if we are to get them to behave.
I say let Bernie be Bernie and if that appeals to voters then they will vote for him. If it does not, they will vote for someone else. And that's fine.
BainsBane
(53,034 posts)Who love hearing about how the Koch brothers are responsible for everything, including US border policy?
Or who like empty promises about not taking money from Super PACs, when in fact no candidate can do so?
That kind of pandering?
Response to BainsBane (Reply #96)
Cheese Sandwich This message was self-deleted by its author.
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)Thanks for a post that caused me to un-trash this forum to respond. I'd like to suggest that every Democratic candidate must show Obama the utmost respect as a person, for restoring dignity to an office that had been utterly trashed by his predecessor. Because the Republicans will continue to attack him both personally and politically, any criticism of him from the Democratic side will have to be framed in terms of a wider context of general approval and support. But the candidate with the most to prove on the Democratic side is the one who was relentlessly snarky and contemptuous towards him in 2008 and whose campaign used racist dog-whistles, IMHO.
I have never had the kind of personal admiration for a candidate that I did for Obama, and six years into his tenure I still find him far more appealing as a person-- and as a national spokesman-- than any of his would-be successors in either party. But when voting for him as a primary candidate and then in the general election, I hoped that he would change the party by moving it to the left, and had reason to expect that outcome. From day one in office, with the eminently unlikable and obnoxious Rahm Emanuel at his side, that hope was dashed and the question became either how much the party would change him, or how center-right his sympathies had always been. All these years later I still wonder. The empowerment of DINOs like Lieberman and Lincoln in the health care arena was horrifying and destructive of trust for those of us who most desperately needed real reform.
Further on the subject of likability, I had always had positive feelings for Hillary until the 2008 primary season, and have always had negative feelings toward her since. Doesn't mean I won't vote for her over any Republican, but does mean it would be with a very heavy heart. Sanders and O'Malley are both preferable to her, personally and politically, but if I could have my druthers Senator Warren is the only one I'd feel 100% positive towards as a candidate.
Thank you especially for apologizing re broad-brushing Sanders supporters; there has been a lot of manipulation going on to cause stereotyping and scapegoating of progressives as "haters" of Obama when mostly they're politically disappointed but still admire his personal qualities. Weighing the good and not-so-good aspects of the Obama legacy is going to become de rigueur for all candidates on both sides in the coming year. Poo-flinging about "haters" could become a year-long free-for-all at DU if we let it. Let's not.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)Everything you've said here, plus your patience. Way better than I could do. Good show, Armstead.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)appalachiablue
(41,140 posts)personal qualities and accomplishments, and political disappointment with some of his public policies. Add to that some cabinet choices. I agree that among Democrats, the one responsible for the most offensive and prominent remarks in 2008 must address their behavior. To be fair and balanced, that candidate must now also listen and heed the same way that Sanders as told must be more attentive and up to date on black people's issues. And that goes for all the supporters who are accountable for their candidates views and actions and visa versa- whether it's on DU, the Twitterverse or in the street.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)(this is not necessarily completely replying to your post, but ended up being a good place to post my comments given the conversation that was taking place)
I also still like and greatly admire President Obama. He has accomplished a hell of a lot in 6 1/2 years, especially considering the obstruction the Republicans have caused. If he were able to run again, I would vote for him in a heartbeat. No doubt.
There are some things that I am a bit disappointed in, one of which being the passing of the fast track legislation. I understand and see why he is pushing it, but I have issues with some of the possible outcomes. I'm not completely anti-trade, I believe we should not be allowing special interest to have so much influence. I also have concerns about the banking industry and student loan debt and feel like these need to be addressed. I'm not very vocal of any of these concerns, but that doesn't mean they don't matter. In fact they DO matter a great deal.
A member of DU falsely accused me of hating President Obama (the person is a well-known person and someone I used to respect) even though it was not true. To this day I've never gotten an apology for that person's shitty behavior (Yes, you know who you are). This goes back to the problem of Sander's supporters being broad brushed.
The same goes for when Clinton is criticized for her policy stances. Her supporters come out and throw around the "hater" label and say everything is right-wing talking points. The other day one of her supporters was talking about how Sanders was a socialist and I pointed out the hypocrisy in that person's behavior and rightfully so.
(Going back to the OP) I think the advice you are giving is well-meaning, but the number of Sander's supporters that would actually apply to is less than half. Again, the broad-brush of Sander's supporters doesn't fair well. As I stated above, I still have a very favorable opinion of President Obama. At the same time I will criticism areas where I believe the ball was dropped. If you think back to the 2008 campaign, it was he himself who told his supporters that they needed to hold him accountable. We still need to do that in the last 1 1/2 years (roughly) before he leaves office.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I expect that when we have a hispanic president they will feel the same and Asians will as well when we have an asian president. Our groups get left out of being reoresented in the White House, the Media, Film, Music, and in many other ways from popular American Culture. Once we get a foot in the door and support our representative, we put alit of trust and emotions into that person. They are responsible for us and us for them. They more complaints we hear, the quicker we look for the exit door. So if you know that and still choose to go on with it, it is your choice to do so. But you won't find us hanging out or supporting you. We'll find somebody who aporeciates his worth. Most do not vote based on policy. We vote based on how we feel..
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Though you do not make it completely clear, which is why I'm asking.
If that is the case, I again point to two statements. One that I wholeheartedly support him and two that he asked us to hold his feet to the fire as he himself and I will continue to do that. The second one is FACT, not opinion. I have done that by voicing my concern through letters and petitions to him and to my Congress people, not by wasting time trashing him on DU.
That is appreciating his worth. If you want to claim otherwise please go ahead and say so directly to me. I worked my ass off to get him elected and reelected because I believe in him. That doesn't mean I lose the right to question what he does or says. Occasionally I do, though a majority of the time I am very happy he won.
I think you need to be careful about twisting people's words as you'll find yourself making more enemies than you need to.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And as far as making enemies? I'm black. My very presence can make me enemies just by looking at me.
This was me telling you how black people see the issue and how to win over that demographic. If that offends you, sorry for you, but this is the world we live in.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Not you addressing everyone. You could have made that one I bit clearer.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)I find this phrase sad, but true, and applicable to m any similar situations across the spectrum:
"But when supporters beat us up with those facts, it shuts down the conversation and everyone retreats to their previously held positions". I confess to sometimes being someone while LIKES to beat people up with facts. and not just in politics, But your post is very insightful and should prove useful to anyone who is intelligent enough to really read it.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)because it is of Obama.
I'm reading this as essentially...
Think the TPP and other "free trade" agreements are a lose for workers, the environment, and the balance of power between the people and the corporations? Better get over it.
Think Rubin/Summers/Geithner economics are a disaster? Get over it, Obama is with it so consider it sanctified.
Oppose dragnet surveillance and support the 4th amendment? Get over it because Obama.
Against Arnie Duncan's education deform and think we are selling our children and educators out and selling them short? Better learn to love it because Obama.
Obama embraces too many retreaded and failed Clinton policies so of course the Clintonite will continue them and they will continue to sell the people out no matter how much they shuck and jive or do the Jimmy Swaggart "I have sinned" routine m
and they keep on keeping on.
How do you correct problems when you must pretend they are good policy and embrace them?
We aren't even discussing the validity, downsides, and benefits of policies but who is behind them, I think is a friction builder of epic proportion. By definition there can be no reasonable and honest dialog in that environment.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)And there definitely are many positives.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Build on his legacy and we will love you for it. We will go to the mat for the person who defends his legacy and promised to build on it.
If I don't vote Bernie in the primary, I will just wait for the general and vote left like always. Vote left.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)too.
Straight up the advice on the TPP was to suck it.
Build on education deform? Please.
Build on opening relations with former fake enemies and neocon whipping posts? Absolutely!
Build on extending and encouraging franchise? Build away, build away!
Build on inclusion? You bet your ass!
Build on equal pay efforts? Yes!
Build on expanding renewables? Book it.
But I'm not tolerant of much less about to consider for a moment on building on our dragnet surveillance state or our fracking programs or sit quiet in reverence to a fucking flesh and blood, fallible, mortal human.
Add in that human is advised by and heavily influence a lot of clearly wrongheaded and people that are professional disaster architects and it is an easy call for me, I rather get busted up and keep on fighting than surrender much of what I fight for and reap the obvious fruit of bad made worse because we have destroyed not only the means to correct the course but even the thought that it is possible.
No thanks, I'll take a loss today rather than to surrender the field forever for what I believe to be wrong and further know doesn't work beneficially.
The line of reasoning is essentially dereliction of citizenship. You build on the good, you reject the bad, and you must never willfully abandon discernment between the two.
If you want to give unquestioning praise and unwavering reverence to perfection and infinite wisdom then it is religion you are looking for, this is politics and application of that sort of reasoning has not generally been successful for the general welfare and never true.
Accentuate the positive even while you forcefully and earnestly talk about where things must change I can buy.
It isnt rocket science to wrap the mind around the concept of a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down.
Even if you reject it in the end that I've tried and tried sugar and the medicine gets somehow left and this sack of Domino is gone through, who wouldn't at least respect good wisdom and generally sage advise but that was not the message.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I would not "suck it" on that, for sure, no matter who advised it. (But I don't recall being advised so on this thread.)
We completely agree on the good and the bad. Much as I love and appreciate President Obama personally, I feel he is a corporate president.
I also feel there is almost no other way to get there in our current system. And I think he is incredibly smart and brave to be the first PoC to get there.
He takes a lot of garbage and has, I think, done more good than harm (certainly less harm than an R would have done). And I have done my share of screaming about stuff I violently objected to.
I appreciate him almost beyond comprehension.
villager
(26,001 posts)Thanks!
Some quick questions (though I am probably not in much today to gather responses):
*If part of Bernie's candidacy is predicated on the notion that the Oval Office has become the captive of corporate interests, how do you talk about that without necessarily talking about who the occupants of that office have been, all along?
*If social justice and economic justice aren't entirely, or exactly, the same thing, they aren't entirely separate either. What's the best way to talk about where they clearly overlap?
Those are just two initial responses, but again, thanks for wading in to GDP to actually post something for... discussion!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think some reading of black publications would be helpful to you in understanding black voices and voters.
Madame Noir
We are respectable negroes - Chauncy DeVega
The Root
Field Negro
News One
BET News
Essence Magazine - online
Try reading those and then google some more. Please no Black Agenda Report. Please. Just no. We really do not read it much.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)John Poet
(2,510 posts)It IS constructive, and some great points that we Bernie supporters on this board should take to heart.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)BainsBane
(53,034 posts)Congrats, Bravenak. I did not think it was possible.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)I know within my neighborhood that Obama is sincerely
revered, and I am happy about this. He is one heck of
a politician and far brighter than many a POTUS I have lived under.
In addition to that he is extremely likable, and so is the whole
family. In that way they don't just set an example for the AA
community, but for all of us;he does the US proud!
For you and many AAs this is unquestionably an unbelievable
success story. For many white Dems he has just become
another president, whose policies can be criticized as well.
And therein lies the rub, I suppose.
The BLM movement was way overdue, and needs all the support
it can get. It needs the megaphone to be trumpeted into all
of the 50 states, because the direct power lies in the states,
I believe. I know that Bernie is trying to connect more closely
with POC, at the same time I don't want him to make promises
he could not keep. He has been sincere and authentic up to
now, and I hope that he can keep it this way.
I hope that he can get together with some of the black leaders
quietly and get their input. He needs to have a lot of POC
in his campaign to keep their issues alive and that includes
immigration as well. That is up to him, and I cannot
do anything but to canvass in my neighborhood for him.
Thank you for the OP
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I hope that he does continue improving his message and it spreads throughout his supporters. It seems to be spreading.
sheshe2
(83,785 posts)and most of the responses. Thanks bravenak, well done.
To tired to say more.
bravenak
(34,648 posts) 
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)I read your post and know that it is not meant to be an attack. That's not the problem I have with your post.
For those who don't know, I'm a white female, 2nd generation Italian immigrants into this country from the turn into the 20th century. That makes me nothing like Americans of Africans, who were enslaved and who have suffered hundreds of years of non-closure in this racist nation who suffered civil war over this issue.
But, we who vote and therefore have an interest in living in an America where native lives matter, black lives matter…. everyone's life matters…. WE ALL have the ability to judge every POTUS who has marked our progress (or lack thereof) towards liberty and a the new paradigm of loving each human being who shares this planet.
You think by criticizing Barack Obama for the policies he has turned his back is equal to hating him, but let me tell you something…. this not NOT what it means. It MEANS that I, as an informed citizen, have the right to criticize and expect leadership. Persons who voted for me as a local government official expected NO LESS.
I'm not sure how many posts here versus total posts have shown outright hate for President Obama, sans the trolls who enjoy their brief visit, but you had better come up with another idea for how we should discuss how black lives matter rather than kindly inform me that I have to do a better job in not criticizing the president.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Doesn't "winning" mean that we understand the underlying issues as to why any life matters? If we (the Sanders supporters) have done a bad job explaining that, then criticize that.
The fact is, I haven't see a picture of your crystal ball. Maybe you can describe the route this wisdom takes from knowing the future?
We have to understand the past to understand the path to the future.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Seriously.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Come on over to the astrology threads to better explain your gift. Wish I had it….
bravenak
(34,648 posts)These magics are very dangerous.
fbc
(1,668 posts)Busy photoshopping Bernie's head onto the body of a manticore, sorry.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)fbc
(1,668 posts)So now that we actually have him in a spot where he can contend we should all shut up and let the "serious" people take over?
Go jump in a lake.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Nice. Winning friends left and right, aren't you? The support he has is NOT ENOUGH TO WIN.
Response to bravenak (Reply #147)
Post removed
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
MerryBlooms
(11,770 posts)On Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:07 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Thanks for your concern trolling, a truly valuable contribution.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=489428
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Accusing the OP of trolling after a heart felt post with a large number of recs is uncivil and rude.
JURY RESULTS
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:38 PM, and the Jury voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Whether it is or isn't, calling them trolls does cross the line. Find a subtler way.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: True- this is not much different than the fools convinced the BLM is working for the Koch brothers. The OP is sincere- these responses are rude and divisive.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Disgusting personal attack.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Ridiculous alert thhread
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)Disrespectful, dismissive, arrogant - and totally clueless if you think any Democrat can win a national election without the Black vote.
On the other hand, if you're actually a right wing troll pretending to be a Sanders supporter while acting like an asshole, good job! Way to sow division and alienate a traditional Democratic voting bloc away from Sanders!
Keep it up! You'll be a hero on Brietbart!
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)than others I've seen in the past. I sure appreciate bravenak for not giving up on the message.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)I especially also appreciate bravenak for not giving up, because I pretty much had.
senz
(11,945 posts)Bernie and Bernie supporter are good people. Don't fear what's good.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)acting like assholes when POC are trying to explain how to win their vote. Like the guy above who said they "can just jump in the lake".
Do you really think that's helpful? Do you really think that's a way to win broad-based support?
I don't, which is why I'd prefer to think that someone talking like that is a fake and is actually trying to sabotage Bernie's campaign. Certainly it's no one I would want as an ally.
senz
(11,945 posts)You're brave, fbc. That was the first phrase that came to mind when I read the OP. I even double-checked my gut response by looking it. up. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=concern+troll
Yep.
Can't believe it's gotten this far.
fbc
(1,668 posts)That option exists: Hillary Clinton. Take it.
Most PoC aren't that easily fooled, so I'm not too worried about it.
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)All it took was one good sniff.
I don't agree with everything Bravnek said in her post, but it was presented without vitriol and in hopes of creating a dialog. Bernie doesn't need supporters who spout the bs you just delivered.
Cha
(297,275 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Gothmog
(145,291 posts)I love the OP even though I am not black. Good post
bravenak
(34,648 posts)jtuck004
(15,882 posts)
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)to communicate. Imagine that!
I have wondered, and ask if you have some insight into it, do you think that there is a perception that Sanders supporters have generally been overly critical of Obama's policies, and an alignment with Clinton is a sort of affirmation that Obama is an exceedingly remarkable president?
I have nothing beyond intuition for suspecting that this is so. But I do suspect it.
I do believe that Obama has been a remarkable president in the face of unprecedented disrespect and obstructionism, even acknowledging that he has taken policy positions with which I disagree. We on Bernie's team had best pay attention, should we hope Bernie should be able to govern if elected.
Thanks for your post bravenak. I am made hopeful by your post that some may listen.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The fact that the Clintons respect his accomplishments makes them look better to us
Response to bravenak (Original post)
Vinca This message was self-deleted by its author.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)posters on DU. I agree with her sometimes and sometimes I don't, but I don't doubt her sincerity.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)And you obviously did not read the OP well enough to see that bravenak said she actually supports Sanders, and does not like Hillary. Her OP is about trying to explain how to increase Bernie's support in the AA community. There's no need to get all defensive about it, it's just advice offerered in good faith from a member of that community. Try listening instead reacting with insults.
Vinca
(50,273 posts)Even the slightest bit of dissension creates a tizzy and I'll be bombarded for the next week with similar replies.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)toward someone whose words you misread in the first place.
Thank you for deleting that post.
Vinca
(50,273 posts)That's why, rather than be harassed all week, I deleted the post. It had nothing to do with the content.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)I still don't get the logic of "I won't vote for Sanders because some of his supporters pissed me off." And I worry that if enough people say that AA's have a good reason to dislike Sanders or his supporters, that will become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Seriously, most people, whether AA, Anglo, Latino, or whatever, don't pay close attention to politics. Say something five times and they will believe it.
It is sad that Sanders will prolly not win. I wish dogs and cows and pigs and cats could vote, because Sanders would kill in that demographic. He appears to be a human supremacist, but he does care more about animal well-being than Clinton does (judging by words and records). Of course, the oppression of nonhuman animals is on nobody's priority list, and to me that really sucks.
If Clinton wins the primary, I won't vote for her in the general. She hasn't earned it. I will just write in "Cesar Chavez" or "Babe" (the pig) or something like that.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Admiral Loinpresser
(3,859 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Last edited Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:28 AM - Edit history (2)
Which I read and acknowledged. I've eliminated my original response for lack of reciprocity.
Communication requires open ears and hearts, but that goes both ways.
Restored:
I very much appreciate the effort to reach out to others here. I am struck by what appears to be lumping all Bernie Sanders supporters in the same category. We are decidedly a diverse bunch. I supported Barack Obama wholeheartedly in the 2008 election. I openly admit I ignored warning signs that a President Obama would be more centrist/right leaning than Candidate Obama. For instance, the first endorsement he got from a congressperson was from Ben Nelson, one of the worst rightwing Democrats. He has the dubious honor of being the deciding vote in favor of Bush's massive tax cuts. Also, when Obama started filling his cabinet, I ignored his choice of Larry Summers and Timothy Geinthner, both at the helm of the economic meltdown caused in large part by Bill Clinton's repeal of Glass-Steagall. I was a huge Clinton fan when I first came to DU 10 years ago, and I got an education. But I digress; I'll address the Clintons a bit later. Candidate Obama was magnificent. He had the world in the palm of his hand. I still believe he was the better choice, but I also have to admit where he has fallen short. He's done some terrific things, and I have to admit some pretty crappy things too (education policy, allowing deep see drilling, retaining most of the Bush tax cuts, etc., etc.) In other words, I see him through clear eyes now. It is weird to be at odds with many of the same people I stood shoulder to shoulder with during the 2008 campaign. We weathered the race-baiting campaign the Clintons ran together. It wasn't me that changed; my opinion of them has not changed. Yet I feel nothing but hatred from many people whom I once considered friends.
I was very excited about the prospect of an Elizabeth Warren candidacy. She's a vibrant woman that is so knowledgeable about how the system works. I would have loved to see her as the first female president. However, after careful consideration, I realize Bernie Sanders is the better candidate. His record is strong and consistent. I don't feel the same cult of personality as I did with Obama. Bernie is a no nonsense politician with a strong record of fighting for the oppressed. I admire him immensely. He jumped in this race because he believes the middle class is on the verge of extinction due to bad policy, much of which originated during Bill Clinton's tenure in office. I get how much Pres Obama means to the black community. I think he's an astoundingly capable man and do not regret my support for him. Not one bit. I've just learned to view him with a critical eye and, for that, I am forever grateful to what you probably consider the "hard left" here at DU.
I once adored the Clintons. I worked my ass off for Bill Clinton in 1992 and 1996. Both my kids worked alongside me. My son received an award from Sam Farr for being the youngest campaign worker in California. And then I got an education on DU. I began to read the links provided to me and started actually reassessing. His NAFTA, welfare reform, and tough-on-crime policies have devastated a generation of our most vulnerable. And maybe you can forgive their behavior during the 2008 primary, but I cannot and probably never will. I don't think they are racist but they most certainly race-baited as a political tactic. They are doing it again with the attacks on Bernie starting the moment he announced his candidacy formally in Vermont. I remain not okay with it. I will not browbeat you with that. That assessment is yours to make.
What the leftwing here at DU has taught me is a critical eye. I think the Clintons are bad for the Democratic Party. I think they are more accurately the Clinton Wing of the Democratic Party. I am appalled at her behavior at State from maintaining a private server in her home to the exponential increase in arms sales to countries on the watch list with a concomitant huge donation to the Clinton Foundation. I am not alleging quid pro quo. But she made zero effort to sidestep the appearance of wrongdoing. They have enriched themselves over the years inappropriately. I think it is and has always been about them. I don't believe her pandering to the various voter blocks. And, to be blunt, I will never forgive her her vote for the Iraq War that set the clusterfuck in the ME into action. I am happy to vote against her, again, in that regard. I am especially happy to be given the opportunity to vote for someone that voted a decisive NO! on the authorization to use military force.
I will not lecture you nor anyone else about whom to vote for; I am simply stating my position. I never attack Clinton supporters but they almost always confuse my lack of regard for the Clintons as a personal attack on them. Again, I have not changed in my feelings about the Clintons; it's others who have changed and that is their prerogative. I really do care about the plight of minorities in this country, black and brown, women, LGBT, etc. And that is a big part of why I don't support Hillary. She and her husband pander to these groups to get elected but have done very little to help their circumstance. Not sure I fully understand the social justice vs. economic justice brouhaha. Bernie has explained his view that they are parallel issues that do have bearing on each other. He wants to improve life for the 99%. The Clintons seem more interested in feathering their own nest. I read very recently that Hillary had prevented the full release of tax info from Swiss banks preventing the US from going after the tax-dodgers while accepting huge donations to the foundation and monster speaking fees. That reeks of quid pro quo and, quite frankly, it makes me angry that they just don't give a shit about the appearance of wrongdoing.
So, in conclusion (sorry for my lengthy reply, you've got plenty of reading to do on this thread as it is), thank you for reaching out. I appreciate the effort and I hope you at least come away from this thread with a better understanding of Bernie supporters. We are a diverse bunch that just seek honest government, government that lifts all people up, government that protects the rights of all Americans. With my best regards, cheers.
artislife
(9,497 posts)You are the example of someone who has been shut down, shouted down, put down and held down and yet still finds the humanity to appeal to in the ones who have done this.
It might help you to see this as a sign that black people can be willing to give multiple chances. This bad time with minority voters can be fixed.
I get the fact that even a few crumbs flicked off the table in our direction can be something. It feels like a promise that next will be the loaf of bread and then there will be the supper to go along side it....such hope because we cannot bear the idea of things not getting better. As a Latina, I understand wanting so badly that the powers that be will want in their hearts to do the right thing and that a little is much better than nothing.n
I also know that my history is not the same. I wrote in a post here right after Netroots, that when the Black community gets raised, everyone else rises along side. You community has done all the heavy lifting, it has taken the brunt of all the evil and vile things in this world and somehow has made an amazing and incredibly enriched community. Powerful and it is way past time that you have to wait for the crumbs.
I posted the appeal for the Gofundme thread to help Sandra Bland on my FB page.
http://www.gofundme.com/sandystillspeaks
and out of all my liberal, progressive and/or Christian friends, only one person I know through the internet said anything.
This country is in serious denial. They think they can watch Roots, get the information and then declare it to be solved.
What upset me most about the reaction to Netroots from Sanders fans was that it was like reading the Yahoo comments on a newstory. It is when I read something there, my heart says to me that it cannot bear the pain of knowing this is what people really think.
I was with my wonderful Mexican grandmother in San Diego. I was about 15 and we were waiting in line. Some punk ass kids starting talking loudly about "bean dips" and dirty habits. I remember looking at my grandmother, and she touching my hand. The hands that made home made tortillas and beans. The food that she would give to the gas meter reader and the water bottle delivery man and anyone else who walked through their little apartment. I thought, "They cannot see this beautiful heart."
Forget about trying to get the Black vote. Get the Black life. Understand it, cherish it and fight for it. We will all rise because of it.
senz
(11,945 posts)I am positive that there are good white people who support Blacks, hate racism, and still can't understand how profoundly injured Blacks have been by the heartlessness and coldness of a racist society. I think I have a sense of how they feel. I've flinched at racism as long as I can remember (and my "family" was covertly racist.) I've always found it easier to gaze into Black faces than most white faces, because Blacks (most Blacks) seem more real, more human, more "there" to me. I'm always surprised that so many whites can't see this. This is especially true with Black women, a group who I believe are, in general, naturally good in the way that Jesus describes goodness in his teachings and parables. I usually feel my body relax in the presence of Black women; they've always made me feel safe. I'm an older adult and hope this admission is not too unusual to understand. People like me aren't very good at catching all the nuances in conversations but for some reason we often pick up on feelings that others miss. Must be a brain difference of some sort. Must be a lot of sub-species under the homo sapiens rubric.
I have always found it very difficult to express my feelings; the best I can do, usually, is point toward them through metaphor and symbol. But the feelings are there, strong, often overpowering. It's been obvious for a long time that cops in this country treat Blacks like criminals, and it's way too clear that they have no human feeling for Black people. Thank God for cell phone cameras and internet/social media because now the evidence is unmistakeable and, since Ferguson, is finally getting the outrage it deserves. Too bad Rodney King wasn't enough to get it going but there wasn't enough social media to make it go viral. MSM won't do it on their own.
The Sandra Bland incident took me to a place where I couldn't separate grief from rage and couldn't find words. That poor young woman, confident and happy to be starting a new job, so mature and aware. That pig who trapped and attacked her. God knows what they did to her in the jail, but they must not, cannot, get away with it. Now it's coming out that other Black women are being killed by cops. It seems like scared white racism is doubling down to its essential base insanity, pure nazi-like hatred. It's out there now, visible. It's a monster. But we need to see it as weakness; otherwise I don't think we can conquer and eliminate it.
Yes, this is a perfect subject for Bernie, because he sees through the BS (does any other candidate see through it?) and he tells it like it is, speaks from his heart and soul. He's the ONLY candidate who truly cares more about people than himself. He honors decency. He honors kindness. Come to think of it, wasn't he the only candidate to talk about Sandra Bland?
Prism
(5,815 posts)I know that's not in your OP, but rather in a reply to someone else with this thread, but it's just a non-starter.
LGBTers were told this in regards to President Obama for years. We were called bigots and racists and horrible people and we were just ruining everything for everyone and couldn't we just let people feel the Joy of Barack for ten seconds and why are we helping the right-wing?
And many other horrid things.
I'm glad we didn't hush. I think it would have been morally irresponsible if we had. I think my community's success to date is down to the fact we just haven't ever been a hushed type of folk.
There's a lot I agree with in your OP. I was very troubled by the Sanders' supporter responses to BLM. I pulled back from the entire debate because it left such a sour taste in my mouth. It was the definition of clueless liberals of privilege talking down to an oppressed community. So awfully cringeworthy. However, Clinton supporters have been happily throwing racial bombs and using race as cynically as possible to keep the conflict going. It's in the Clinton campaign's interest to keep racial conflict up and making Sanders defend against it. It also flips the 2008 narrative, where she had the race problem. Now she's the champion. Interesting.
The other day, there was some story about a Bernie gathering, and I realized I had scrolled down to the photos and had started counting non-white faces. Seriously. That is the level and quality of our debate this primary. We're playing Count The Brown People!
Just . . . no. If that's what people want to do, I can't stop them from being horrible people. But, I'm out. I don't want to play these games. I don't want that thinking infecting my own. I'm totally withdrawn from the primary process at this point.
I don't take anyone seriously anymore. At least not here. I don't think 90% of what gets posted here is sincere anymore. I think most of this shit is just plain trolling.
Good OP, but it doesn't tackle the problem. And until there's honesty, nothing will move. And this isn't an environment conducive to honesty.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)For years? Even as they sold us out time and time again? Nobody has been shut up or shut down ir sold out as much as we and the Native American community have been shut down. To win those votes you have to listen. To listen you have to be quiet.
Prism
(5,815 posts)Which is really on you. My community has been told to shut up by Democrats pretty much every single election cycle ever. We never did. We never stood for it.
By all means, do the same. I applaud anyone in the BLM movement who stomps and yells and gets out there and makes politicians pay attention. Good!
But don't tell others to shut up. That is not helpful, that doesn't get anyone on your side, it isn't a logical path forward. It's an emotional response - not a rational political calculation. Saying that makes you feel better, but that attitude? Will drive away potential allies.
You know, there was a strain of LGBT activist I really disliked. Call them the hurt and bitter atheist type who had been bashed by the religious-right all their lives (i.e. I know how they got to their attitude and beliefs). They really wanted religious people to shut up - and said so. Even people who were our allies. They didn't want to hear a word about religion. I always disliked that. It never worked for me. My Catholic family came around after conversation, disagreement, back and forth, a willingness to take each others' views into account.
No one was shouted into compliance.
It feels like you're advocating that tactic. White allies shut up, while black people start screaming.
I understand why you feel the way you do. I absolutely do. But it is not going to work out for you.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Only if you want to ATTRACT enough voters to win do you have to bite your tongue. If your intention is not to win, then, by all means enjoy ripping anybody you want to shreads!
Sadly, Hillary will cha cha slide into the whitehouse if you do, but if the point is not to win....
Prism
(5,815 posts)Deeply, deeply wrong for adopting this rhetoric towards people who earnestly want a better world for everyone.
LGBTers were told we would ruin the election, that we would alienate voters, that if we lost it would be all our fault. Hell, just look at the aneurysm DU had when Gavin Newsome approved gay marriages in San Francisco before the 2004 election. We were told we had to shut up for the Good of the Party.
I don't think you know what you're saying.
I don't think you know what the genesis of your sentiment is or the ugliness it was responsible for.
But you are deeply wrong here. I lived through this song and dance already and saw the harm and hurt it caused.
While I value many of your contributions, I utterly reject your sentiment.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)This is an oppressed community reaching out to the non oppressed. I think you are looking at this in the wrong way. Try sleeping on it and reading it again later. It may look differently to you after you ruminate on it for a spell.
Prism
(5,815 posts)I'm not a Sanders supporter, and I reject the misguided reactions by some of them to BLM.
You have asked others to listen to you. I think many have. Now I'm asking you to listen to me. You don't have to agree with me, just extend the same courtesy of considering the thought.
The rhetoric you're employing at this juncture has been used in the past to harm minority communities. It has always been a function of the comfortable to tell others their views need to be minimized. Of course you're aware of this function. You noted it in a response above.
So why employ it yourself? That is what I do not understand.
"You need to be quiet if you want us to win." Lord, saying that in the vicinity of LGBTers is liable to trigger flashbacks.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Prism
(5,815 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)But you nailed it.
The racist shit stirring was happening way before the BLM kerfuffle, and I pretty much stayed out of that, so it's not about that. It's about a concerted effort by the HRC supporters to paint Sanders as bad on racial issues at best, and racist at worst ("Not Enough, Bernie" .
The BLM issue made it all explode to a point where it got so ugly on both sides I just didn't care what anyone on DU had to say about it and stayed out of it. Luckily for me my last job ended and my new job is a great opportunity for me so I have really immersed myself in it and haven't been on DU much since I started on it.
I'll spend my free time actually working on Bernie's campaign when I get more of it again. In fact, I've spent 20 minutes too much on Du today already.
Quayblue
(1,045 posts)What is it that you think bravenak is asking you to hush about?
aikoaiko
(34,170 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 2, 2015, 04:21 PM - Edit history (1)
... but are put off by his supporters. Do you ever post in the AA group why you support Bernie over Hillary in the AA group? If not, why not? If so, what has been the reaction?
And forgive me if I don't recall correctly, but didn't you post something along the lines of We (African Americans) hate you (Bernie Supporters) because you hate Obama. But now you say you don't hate Bernie supporters?
senz
(11,945 posts)I'm totally behind Bernie. My support rests on his stand on the issues that count, b/c that is what will make the difference for American who have been oppressed and cheated by neoliberalism/Reaganism.
I used to sympathize with Hillary, especially when she was First Lady, but what really turned me off was her treatment of Obama in 2008. I recently read in the NYTimes (think it was Mo Dowd's column, but maybe the comments) that it's well-known that the Clinton team dislikes Obama. I've never seen a photo of Michelle Obama or Malia or Sasha chatting up or in any way making nice with a Clinton, so maybe the feelings are mutual.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
P. S. I had hostile feelings about Clinton from the 2008 election. Even in the midst of Rush's well known strategy called Operation Chaos 2008, where he and those like him on the right actively sought to stir up hatred between Democrats, I didn't like her. It was her alleged supporters who did her in for me. Operation Chaos has been announced for 2016 as well. These are GOP operations used because they do effect Democratic voting patterns by causing them not to vote.
Republicans Should Help Bernie Sanders to Weaken Hillary
by Myra Adams June 25, 2015
...Limbaugh’s efforts prompted a May 8, 2008, Washington Post headline: “Did Rush Limbaugh Tilt Result in Indiana?” Clinton had just narrowly won the Indiana primary, and Limbaugh’s “Operation Chaos” intervention was also deemed successful in several other states where registered voters were able to “cross over” and cast their votes in either party’s primary.
Limbaugh’s rationale was that if Clinton were to win the Democrats’ 2008 presidential nomination, she would be a weaker general-election candidate than Obama — so from February to May, Limbaugh hopped on Clinton’s bandwagon.
Later in the May 8 piece, the Washington Post reported: “But Limbaugh called off the operation yesterday, saying he wants Obama to be the party’s pick, because ‘I now believe he would be the weakest of the Democrat nominees.’”
Obviously, Limbaugh’s “strategery” (a favorite word of his) did not turn out as planned, but his interventionist reasoning should be revived and adapted for the early stages of the 2016 campaign...
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420262/bernie-sanders-republicans-myra-adams
the link has details on how they used that technique. But they could not defeat Obama in 2008 or 2012 with them. PBO is the greatest president since FDR, who also faced great challenges as president.
That is NOT calling DUers GOP. It is evidence that the media will be playing these games that have worked for them since Nixon's second term. We've been on the ropes and divided ever since, just as intended.
senz
(11,945 posts)strange bedfellows." I might have been a little more convinced if there were any candid shots with the kids. As for Myra Adams' piece...well, it was written over a month ago, and Bernie has been picking up supporters at an amazing rate, so pretty soon those Republicans might be supporting Hillary (in keeping with their mutual sponsors, the oligarchs) in order to head off the VERY THREATENING Sanders phenomenon. Bernie Sanders could turn the Republican applecart upside down -- and they know it.
Thanks for the research, etc.
jfern
(5,204 posts)So do you have a point?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They do not care and raise the same concerns at times. But we are used to big ass dissappointments.
aikoaiko
(34,170 posts)would go a lot further at DU than anything a white Bernie supporter could say.
I hope both Bernie and his supporters (including you) are able to address the African American communities' resistance to his nomination for the party.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)This is as much help as I'm willing to give at this time.
aikoaiko
(34,170 posts)A start?
Bracenak Aikoaiko
Who's next?
bravenak
(34,648 posts) Alfalfa
(161 posts)This us vs them, my people/your people mentality isn't helping anyone.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Racists are NOT my people. Those who disrespect black activists are NOT my people. My people have my back and I have theirs. That's my family. You want to be in the family? Be nice. Have respect. Listen and learn from those who you think have nothing to teach you. My people support black lives matter. Anyone who does not is NOT my family.
Response to bravenak (Reply #312)
Post removed
bravenak
(34,648 posts)nc4bo
(17,651 posts)In fact, I KNOW you know.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)and Clinton supporters (and Obama supporters) are basically ideological. Where they may agree on social issues, they are miles apart on other important issues. I doubt that Sanders supporters will "win-over" any Clinton supporters.
For example, I think the wealth gap is causing an increase in poverty rates among our children and responsible for the horrible infant mortality rate we have. In other words, the wealth inequality is literally causing the deaths or American children. I feel passionate about that and have a hard time with those that don't. I feel the same about war, the Patriot Act, domestic spying, drilling in the Arctic, and a number of other issues where I disagree with conservatives. The divide is between progressives and conservatives. Progressive followers of Sen Sanders won't win over Clinton followers, in my opinion.
It doesn't even make sense for people to intimate or say outright that Sen Sanders doesn't care about the AA community. It's just an attempt to disparage the Senator. I don't mean you as you are very fair with regard to Sen Sanders.
While I am on my soap box, let's dispel the meme that a handful of self-claiming Sanders supporters can turn people against the good Senator. This is the internet and people are smarter than to be fooled by a handful of anonymous posters claiming to support Sen Sanders.
One more and I will quit. More silliness for either side to claim that their supporters are not as bad as the other side. That's right out of Jr. High.
You may not be able to tell from my post but I appreciate your attempts to keep the peace. 
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We are not owned it can be done. But it takes effort and a lot of compromise.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)message is to all of the 99%. I don't understand what you mean by "compromise".
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Within the black community. The 99 percent message does not resonate. More has to be done to address issues specific to our comunity. The message that sold you on him is not selling us. That has to change. I think it can be done, but you have to know what we need and what we say has to be heard and incorporated into the message and platform. Otherwise, Hillary. She will do the things that others won't to win votes. Pander, whatever. But it is working with black people right now. It is working very well.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)She has the advantage of trust, strangely enough. I know it is inexplicable. It just is.
But her time on stage at the Urban League was good and she is not saying the WRONG things. All she has to do is tread water.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Deal?
I do like that you softened it. It's still divisive. You know very well why people had to keep repeating Sanders record, it was because of the swiftboat campaign on here to paint him and his policies as racist at worst, tone deaf at best. And it started well before the BLM kerfuffle, so I'm not even talking about any of that here.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)But you know very well that as long as people keep trying to say the past doesn't matter or that Bernie doesn't care about or have policy plans that will affect black lives - as long as the AA group allows swiftboat OPs that lie about what he said about racism to stand ( by supposed Bernie supporter hosts no less) - as long as there are swiftboat OPs such as the "Not Enough, Bernie" OP - as long as people keep attacking Bernie on one of his strengths - his supporters are going to keep touting his record. That's what happens in campaigns, people run on their record.
It isn't directed at all PoC as a way of trying to "teach" them anything, it is directed specifically at the people who keep ignoring it and who keep trying to paint him as a candidate who doesn't care about black people, which is clearly false.
That's not saying that he is running a perfect campaign that is doing a fine job of reaching out to PoC, but to conflate that with people having the need to defend him against a swiftboat campaign is just wrong.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)So you can help combat the people who are trying to swiftboat Sanders then. They're the reason people keep having to tout his record.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)This is the last time I will. I won't have time in the near future and am starting to just resign myself to Hillary.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)you would switch from a true liberal to a centrist/corporatist. Sorry, doesn't add up.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I just do not have the energy to fight with Bernie supporters anymore. I'll just shut up from now on and let you handle it. You got this. You'll help Bernie win the black vote. You don't need my help or advice. Have a nice day.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)I appreciate that you softened it. I think you are being divisive and disingenuous.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Even my sigline is good advice for dealing with black people. We HATE the lectures and they feel PATERNALISTIC like we are being spoken to like children. We study our history. More likely MUCH closer than white people do. We HAVE TO. So the lectures (for the most part) are being given to people who are much more well read on civil right by folks who just googled a quote from MLK.
Number23
(24,544 posts)I mean I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND.
You will put all this time and effort into stuff and look at the responses. Too many of these people will DELIBERATELY misinterpret and distort what you've said. They don't give a fuck. They don't have to.
In the other thread, one "progressive" (dude actually has PROGRESSIVE in his fucking name) thought it was knee slappingly funny that a black female progressive activist at Netroots Nation felt unsafe because of Sanders supporters there. What kind of diseased person finds the harassment of women and poc funny? What kind of "Democratic" web site allows people to feel so comfortable that they have no qualms about saying shit like that, and especially to a black female poster????
And some of the ones rushing in here now to pat you on the head for this OP are also some of the ones that have done nothing but chase after and harass many of the remaining black posters here -- and I mean have done this FOR YEARS -- including alluding that we aren't black or are "infiltrators" to DU and the Democratic Party, when they aren't ignoring or minimizing black issues altogether and/or distorting the legacies of black icons to suit their needs.
Put your gorgeous, beautiful mind to more important and rewarding efforts. Even the people who started this web site have given up on it. Keep going with your poetry. It is wonderful. Start your own political blog and speak to an audience that if not smart enough to understand and empathize with what you're saying, you can at least have some control over the level of dishonesty and bullshit you have to read and go through.
I rec'd but I want you to do something more worthy of you.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)This year I'm moving on. This was my last hoorah, just gotta say it one last time.
I start school i two weeks and they will be bereft of my future wisdoms. I just hate when I see people messing up and it's just so obvious what the issue is.
If Bernie loses (the most likely sitiation) they can look back at my psychic warnings nd I can say I told you so.
BainsBane
(53,034 posts)and I find it impressive you got anyone to listen. However, Number23 is right. (Here I'm thinking of how I'm wasting my own time too). I do believe some will learn from you, but I agree with Number 23 that you have a bright future away from this site.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We all need to move on. Hopefully some people got something from this, but I won't be repeatung myself over and over. This is a time suck and I keep bullshitting. I know I have shit to do, but it's just so hard to see people not understand why they are floundering. I can see that it won't be enough and my efforts are mostly futile.
BainsBane
(53,034 posts)Please let people (me anyway) know where you wind up.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)You are one of the bright lights here! I wish I had caught up with you sooner, I've learned so much from you in the past few weeks.
So, yeah, it's entirely selfish of me to ask you to stick around. But you don't have to take on any more of this election stuff, just bring your grace and wisdom to the places on DU where you have friends and are appreciated.
I just can't bear the thought of you being gone altogether... 
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The cannabis group too. But I will slow down during the school year and stop trying to tell everyone what the future holds. This was my final attempt at trying to assist. From now on I think I may just bite my tongue a bit. I'll be here, though.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)I'm excited for you about your upcoming school year, and wish you all the best with that!
You've done your best on this issue, no matter how many are too blind to see, you've been downright heroic and truly an inspiration.
I'll keep an eye out for you.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think this will be a good year for me. I think I've given enough advice that if people are interested they can use it effectively. We'll just see how things go from here.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts)Really, thank you.
I know you have tried really hard just to be disappointed again. This part of the supporters hurts.
I find it strange to be in the group with so few PoC. It was joyous, fun and diverse in 2008 and 2012. It felt like the international district.
I read the AA group and just feel sad. I just feel like my Bernie sign is now inflicting pain.
I do believe in him and not Hillary but I am not blind to the fact that on this board and in other places he has become a symbol of intolerence to many. And he really hasn't done that, just faceless posters with his name and face waving.
It is fortunate and unfortunate that we live by the quick post, twitter and instagram. I know I have lashed out and it hangs in the air forever. What can connect us can also show how divided we are. I just can't believe this is where we still are at this time.
So~
If you do go, have a great time in school, have fun, enjoy life, be surrounded by uplifting people. Do your art.
We may not get the best candidate for our people, but we must never stop demanding it and never back down.
I am actually really happy the the AAs are drawing a line in the sand and saying they won't wait any longer.
Be well
and I will look up and down the site for your name!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Stuck with me for a while yet!
But yes, it is dissappointing, but look! This went BETTER than last time, right? I think so. It is hard for me to join a group with so few AA's. It's hard for me to feel like i fit in or am even accepted.
I hope that people will take what I say, even if they disagree, and think it over and look at publications written by PoC. They would see my concerns reflected there. Sigh. It is what it is.
artislife
(9,497 posts)I almost had the ugly cry happening!
I did notice that this is the 7th (maybe less maybe more) post with the same helpful information and intent.
And there were fewer posters balking at it.
But it is Sunday so who knows what this OP will look like tomorrow night.
Ok, time to get on our raincoats and open up the umbrellas....Gallagher may be arriving
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
I bet people can continue my good work from here on out.
Number23
(24,544 posts)But at some point you gotta stop beating your brain against the wall. You are too smart, real and impassioned to be here with these libertarians and nihilists. You have seen as well as I have that the only "minority" perspective that is appreciated here is one that is lock step with the DU majority. And how many black folks do you know that would be in lockstep with some of these folks, let alone most of them???
Go find a real liberal web site and speak your heart there. Or even better, use all of that brain juice for school! What are you going to be studying?? Is this a Master's degree, Bachelor's degree or what???
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Yeah, I'm doing my bachelors, I spent so much time out of school, I felt the need to just redo most if it. My math scores though.... Fucking tragedy.
At least I can test out of english. Art, writing, african american studies. I might end up in school for the rest of my life, but fuck it. I like it. Better that than this. Besides they NEED my black ass there. The black culture club looks like the AA forum here. Might be time for me to take over.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)isn't cool, enlightening or in the spirit of Open conversation which in my opinion is something " She " would rather have an esoteric conversation we have to to listen to, but are prohibiited from participating in, besides drive -by insults where's the participation ?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)because I was blocked for sticking up for Cornel West and criticizing a man I voted for twice . A common accusation that comes at this point from the same person every time is that I'm stirring shit or making unfounded accusations, but never hear of a specific thing .
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)((Waving down at you))
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)If he goes on to lose, there's going to be a whole bunch of denial among certain DUers (and elsewhere on sites like DKos) saying that non-supporters are dumb and/or don't know him, or blaming money for his loss rather than it being due to people just liking another candidate's policies and/or plans more. Judging from the behavior around here in the past year or so, that's what I'm predicting.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I hope your prediction is not going to come to fruition, but I fear it will.
Number23
(24,544 posts)there's going to be a whole bunch of denial among certain DUers (and elsewhere on sites like DKos) saying that non-supporters are dumb and/or don't know him, or blaming money for his loss rather than it being due to people just liking another candidate's policies and/or plans more.
This is the same tactic this crowd has always used to "explain" their lack of influence in the halls of power. That "TPTB" and other nefarious "forces" kept them out, not that it was their own tactics, lack of planning or behavior that have lead to their miniscule amount of influence.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)It needed to be seen. Many people seem to finally move towards understanding. Some are digging in their heels, but a seed has been planted and at some point some of those will germinate. I'm sure of it. Enough of the glass half full.........I continue to be frustrated at some of the responses, they seem so willfully ignorant. Surely it's not by accident?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I saw a few people who seemed confused and seemed to CARE about getting us on board. Even though some have been negative, I feel that we made GREAT progress today. I am optimistic. I want to like Bernie and I do.
I am starting to see that some just want to fight. But.... Some of the most dedicated supporters have really been trying so hard today. I appreciate that.
BainsBane
(53,034 posts)an interesting crowd, particularly some of the newer posters. 
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Notice how most of the longer term posters are much more receptive? I can see that some actually want to win. The others... They may not actually support Bernie at all.
cloudythescribbler
(2,586 posts)I agree exactly with the reasoning of the OP, which I understand, along with subsequent comments in threads, to be suggesting a different approach be taken by Bernie Sanders' supporters.
That too is probably spot on, but frankly, in an election campaign, it's generally about dealing with the general public, including activist circles, as they are, which is very hard -- I am not exactly a great practicioner of that concern, having been a terrible canvasser back when. I think that the OP's better strategy is to trawl (not to be confused with troll) for like-minded individuals and focus on convincing a few people, that is Bernie Sanders himself and a few key people around him. You could spend half a lifetime trying to convince a half-dozen posters at DU and at the end of the day, even if successful, it doesn't really make any historic difference.
I think both Bernie Sanders and many of his supporters on DU do fail to be attuned sufficiently to the issues and approaches that the Sanders campaign needs to win over more black and latino supporters, who in many key states are clearly the majority of Democrats, and in many others total close to or about half. The New York Times, buried deep in an article that started on page one on Aug 1 really picked up on this problem. Here's the link -- and it's two short paragraphs about Bernie Sanders near the end that a whole wave of Sanders supporters need to pick up on and COLLECTIVELY hammer Bernie Sanders privately and if necessary publicly to modulate his approach in a major way.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/01/us/politics/hillary-clinton-hits-jeb-bush-first-and-hard-in-speech-on-race.html?_r=0
The New Jim Crow matrix of issues should be one of three or four (along with plutocracy and climate catastrophe eg) that are highlighted in an important progressive campaign. As someone at the progressive end of the Democratic Party (and outside it frequently) this is a given. If Bravenak and some like-minded friends organize a group of Bernie Sanders supporters focusing on getting the candidate (NOT DUers who don't readily agree) to get his campaign cracking, while also vocally and repeatedly demanding a full roster of debates, I would be interested as a supporter. I could imagine a Bernie Sanders campaign that has seen the strategic light trying to get Michelle Alexander's support among many others, and raising the Black Lives Matter and New Jim Crow matrix of issues, in the broadest possible way as part of the regular stump speech in most locations. At any rate, some kind of organized systematic pressure on the candidate and those close around him is the only way I see this might happen. Just those reacting to that NY Times article w/in his campaign and other tweaks will NOT do it. And the Network Nation protest was crucial, and the 'all lives matter' (O Malley I think said this) is just tone deaf, as is the notion of "stunt". Not everyone's lives are equally at risk at the hands of cops. There are more blacks and latinos in America dying (and being otherwise abused) at the hands of various kinds of security personnel than the number of lynchings per year even 100 years ago. Either the Bernie Sanders campaign will modulate the way Obama the candidate did when issues came up or he will be hardly any serious challenge to Hillary Clinton at all. Even if the campaign does not secure the nomination, like the Rainbow Coalition, there is a potential for the progressive, "democratic" (in Dean's phrase) wing of the Democratic Party to build something important, hopefully into something sustained. Otherwise the Bernie Sanders campaign will be little more than a trivia question for political mavens in future years.
I say all this as a Bernie Sanders supporter who has already donated the first of multiple (modest) times to his campaign, like I did for Obama starting early (he DID turn out to be a neoliberal, like the Clintons, though a bit more progressive, but that's not the issue in THIS campaign)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)There's so much there that I want to take time to go through it and discuss your points one by one.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)Presidential administration after him. We need to go back to the tax rates for the wealthy that we had during the Eisenhower era.
Bernie Sanders:
“These people are so greedy, they’re so out of touch with reality,” he said. “They think they own the world…. I’m sorry to have to tell them, they live in the United States, they benefit from the United States, we have kids who are hungry in this country. We have people who are working two, three, four jobs, who can’t send their kids to college.
“Sorry, you’re all going to have to pay your fair share of taxes,” he asserted. “If my memory is correct, when radical socialist Dwight D. Eisenhower was president, the highest marginal tax rate was something like 90 percent.”
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)I think this is totally right on. THIS is exactly the sort of "poltical revolution" I would think Sanders supporters would want to see, multi-dimensional and inclusive of many voices and concerns. Why settle for less?
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Not everyone's lives are equally at risk at the hands of cops. There are more blacks and latinos in America dying (and being otherwise abused) at the hands of various kinds of security personnel than the number of lynchings per year even 100 years ago. Either the Bernie Sanders campaign will modulate the way Obama the candidate did when issues came up or he will be hardly any serious challenge to Hillary Clinton at all.
But what Bernie supporters are trying to get across to the AA community, is that social justice means "lives", and it is number one for those affected...but economic fairness means "quality of lives" (and can include lives too, like when people can't buy food and security for their families, or don't have money for medical needs) which affects everyone...there is only one contingent not affected by economic inequality, and that is those at the top. So blacks really should be very concerned about economic equality. And Bernie has talked about this...about how jobs for black kids are so low and education is so hard to get and how can poor black communities ever pull themselves out of the situation they are in now, without policy changes that help them economically.
Yes living comes first, but without quality of life, what good is life? I want to see the quality of life improve for all our kids and for all minorities.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)The AA community does not give a rip about what "Bernie supporters are trying to get across to the AA community", they want Bernie supporters to listen to THEM.
This white privileged attitude - that if white folks just keep explaining what they think will help the black folks, those black folks will eventually "get it" - is the core of the disconnect.
It's paternalistic, condescending, disrespectful, and totally dismissive of the possibility that white folks just might have something to learn from the AA community - if only they would get off their white privileged high horse long enough to actually LISTEN to what the AA community has to tell them.
All the resistance I've seen from Bernie supporters to the message in the bravenak's OP comes from this place of presuming to know, better than the AA community knows, about what's good for them. And the refusal to consider that there might be something to learn from the AA community.
As long as there's no listening happening, it just demonstrates disrespect and dismissal. Why should people who are not being respected, who are being dismissed, who are not being listened to and their messages heeded, who are brushed off as if they had nothing to teach, give any respect or bother listening to what you have to say?
The fact that we have just one mouth but two ears ought to be a constant reminder that we need to listen twice as much as we speak.
DebJ
(7,699 posts)something I was grappling with. So, I don't agree with 23 that you are just beating your head against a wall. Change takes place ONE person at a time... and then THAT one can change one (or more) etc.... Count me as one. And no doubt, at least a lurker or two. You can't always judge your impact by the responses that you receive.
That's how I helped our town to vote for Obama. One person at a time.
When I moved up here to Pennsyltuckey to live in my hubby's town, and the 2004 election cycle began, I invited all of his (now our)
friends to a party to watch the debates (a Democratic one, first). I asked each of the six or so if they were D or R. Several said they didn't know. I said, "Are you registered to vote?" They said yes. I said "So how did you register, D or R?" Most didn't know. All I knew was that I was talking to a roomful of TEACHERS for goodness sakes, and there was no way they could REALLY be "R". Flash forward to 2008. Each of them was stoutly and proudly and loudly proclaimed as a Democrat. Each made hundreds of phone calls and several knocked on doors for Obama. We won our town. One person at a time.
Here is the incident in my life that your words helped to clarify for me: one of my two best friends is an AA Muslim teacher. Her Mom was in town for the visit, and the two of them dropped by our home one evening for a little visit. The TV began to show the incident where the AA woman was pulled over for 'not using her signal when changing lanes'. Now, my hubby and I were mentally in a position where we logically discussed many of the details of the incident (and of course we both had concluded that police officer needed to lose his job immediately at the very least). My friend's mother (same age as me, almost 60) was having NONE of it, none of the other things we mentioned. She just blew up, over and over again. The intensity of her emotions is what, well, woke me the f up. Now, I had preceded my comment by saying "Now of course I am not black and so I am responding differently", and she said several times, "Yes, you are NOT black so you have no idea." The intensity of her emotion just blew me away, and it was something I needed to see. It is one thing to 'understand', to use logic, about how someone else (in this case, someone who is AA and I am not) feels. It is quite a different (and much better) thing to see that exploding emotion, and to keep seeing it, until you not only 'understand', but you FEEL it, too. And yet, I was left, overall, just feeling, well, how to put into words? My brain just kept thinking about it, and saying "Wow", but I was still struggling to synthesize what my emotions felt/empathized with, and what my logical 'understanding' part of my brain 'felt'. Bravenak, your words pulled those two parts of my brain together, made a synthesis. PERHAPS that would have happened in my head over time as I continued to think and ponder it, but I can't say that it would have. But I do know that somehow your words put all those pieces together for me.
And as for your advice, I think it is fantastic. It is nothing more than I did when campaigning for Kerry, for whom I had honestly only lukewarm support myself. I just didn't broach certain topics when campaigning....either topics I myself wasn't comfortable with, or topics that whomever I was speaking to was clearly on the opposite side. So instead, I spoke to them about things they WOULD support, because I wanted above all for a D to win........and God knows for Bush to lose, lose, lose, lose. UGH I hated the results of that election. I just couldn't believe what happened..........
It seems to me that a general synopsis of the people who are disputing what you have said, and indeed who seem to be angry or offended, is that they are doing what Democrats have always done... and because of that, lost.... taking the M.O. of trying to win by using logic and issues. And yet, don't we all clearly know by now, that it is EMOTION that wins an electorate? That is precisely why the R's have won: they use emotion.... in their case, fear, and anger, and hatred that they artificially create and feed ... and guess what? It WORKS. Because we are human, and as humans, we are as much, if not more, emotion than logic in so very, very, many ways. (Isn't this partly what that book "What's the Matter with Kansas?" was about....something rings a bell here about that book....)
I myself was one of those 'logical' people. And actually, what that comes down to is a great deal of hubris, and that adds up to stupidity. Sort of like thinking or implying 'gee, if you were smart enough, you'd just look at the facts and ACT and FEEL as I do'. And that's a really, really, stupid M.O. And it loses elections for the D's all the time.
My goodness, if I was just a logic machine, I wouldn't be married to my husband, LOL, because logically, that wouldn't make a darn bit of sense for many reasons. But I am, and plan on continuing in this foolishness. And yet, people look at me with their jaws agape all the time, and more than once in my life, they have felt compelled to comment on how my brain seems to work like a computer, full of a zillion different odd ball facts about all kinds of things, and those things just pop out of my mouth, purely logically, all the time (and far too often, with no 'political' or polite editing). But in addition to this logical predilection, I am also deeply and vocally and visibly passionate about many things. Like my husband. And my country. And getting both the Dems in power, and getting the Republicans OUT OUT OUT. And I am able to put both pieces of my human self together, logic and heart, facts and empathy, and use that to Bernie's advantage.
I just cannot thank you enough, bravenak. Thank you so very, very much.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That is what I was trying to do. Help the logically inclined understand the emotions behind the decisions and help understand my community better.
I feel that as a person who is and introvert (infp to be exact) I have this weird thing about me that helps me place myself into people's skins, if you know what I mean. I read Alot, I have also lived in so e of the shittiest circumstances, lived in ways that most here would see as a nightmare, but for me it was just life. I understand the poor. I understand the oppressed. I have undocumented people in my family. There are so many emotions there that I just cannot express them all.
And yes, I see voting as a thing that MOST of us do emotionally; good or bad, we are human. We like appreals to our better natures, striving for excellence, being respected and cared for and listened to, we all do. Maybe this can be a way to start a conversation among Bernie's supporters that can help them use their energy to get votes for their candidate. I hope so, anyway.
DebJ
(7,699 posts)
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Your sincerity, sensibility and determination should be welcomed by everybody. You've given me, personally, a lot of things to think about. I am a Bernie supporter and hope to encourage others to also be Bernie supporters. The last thing we need is to turn people off.
Thanks for this - it really is making me think!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I just felt like I should give it one last shot before I give up. I'm glad it went so well. I know some might read this thread and think 'Damn, that was BAD!' But really, I think it went MUCH better this time.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)it didn't just educate me on how to help Bernie attract voters, it opened my eyes to other ways in which I need to grow.
I truly appreciate it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts) Aerows
(39,961 posts) artislife
(9,497 posts)Well...remembering when we were laughing at #BernieSoBlack before the sh*tstorm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=459501
Comedy gold in the midst of dung!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)'I don't Drink with YOU!' Or 'Nasa bombs the moon' and I think 'I was the nipple alerter' was pretty good too. I loved I don't drink with you. I need to look that one up.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts)My sides are aching reading these replies...............
artislife
(9,497 posts)Who was that guy? I would go out with him one night, probably couldn't handle more but damn... this is funny
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
artislife
(9,497 posts)That lady in the truck (referenced in one of the post with a link to that OP), well she was the hostess.
She came back and finished the job.
He has a new OP (for some reason the link won't work)
Why do I have to take the Kelly Blue book amount when I think they can use the jaws of life to pop the roof of my car back up?
but here is the photo
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I need to go read that op.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts) awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)as an attack. You have concerns, and have all right to give voice to them.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)jfern
(5,204 posts)Got arrested for a protest in 1962, Was there for the I have a dream speech. Jesse Jackson won the 1988 Vermont caucus with his help. But, Vermont is a mostly white state, so he doesn't have the outreach to the black community that those in areas that have more blacks might have. Did you know that Vermont is just launching its first chapter of the NAACP?
I had mentioned this recent speech at the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. I imagine you will be seeing more things from him. I believe Bernie is particularly interested in economic solutions to bring down the 51% unemployment rate among black youth.
https://berniesanders.com/remarks-senator-sanders-southern-christian-leadership-conference/
bravenak
(34,648 posts)My role today was teacher, not student. As a black person I study civil rights history like my life depends on it; it does depend on it. Read my sigline. Anybody you meet here on DU who is black is reasonably well educated, many have advanced degrees. I know much and more about civil rights, they are far more educated than I and I learn from them.
It is rude to assume people are not informed on history and Civil rights. I am here, therefore I obviously have a great concern for our political interests and since I constantly discuss civil rights and black history, it should be obvious that I know enough and educate myself enough so that you would learn more from me than I from you.
Now, I already posted that in the forum I post; the African Anerican forum when it occured and posted an excerp, so there is no need to whip that out on me like I had no idea.
Coolest Ranger
(2,034 posts)Part of what has driven me away from Democratic Underground is the constant fighting among everyone. I also have been noticing that every time a Hillary Clinton supporter posts something, the Bernie Sanders people jump all over them and try to hijack the thread. Vice Versa if a Bernie Sanders supporter does the same thing.
ENOUGH.
Bravenak is correct in what she posted earlier in her OP. Black peoples lives do matter like it or not. When you start trying to make excuses like ALL LIVES MATTER you are insulting the very people you need in order to win an election. Our votes are going to matter in 2016, who ever winds up being our nominee will need us.
Look, let me be straight with you all. I am a Bernie Sanders supporter. I have been following Bernie's career ever since I got involved in politics in 1992 which was the first election I ever voted in. I'll be 42 years old this year. I do not mind telling you my age cause I want you to know where I am coming from. Ironically, Hillary Clinton supporters, her husband was the first man I ever voted for and it felt good when he won that year. I voted democratic ever since.
For me this next election is extremely personal for me. Because of President Barrack Obama I now have the right to marry any man I want. Because of Barrack Obama, my health care can never be taken away from me. It is President Obama's legacy we'll be fighting for in 2016.
I am noticing there are forces at work who are intent on dividing us and you know what, it breaks my heart to see all of you fighting each other instead of offering solutions on how to unite the part. Sure, I understand this is a primary season, I get that, but what I do not get is why you are jumping all over black voters and especially the black lives matter people. They are voters too and their voice matters. When you post this ALL LIVES MATTERS stuff, you are literary telling us to sit our butts down, shut up and accept things as status quo. Well guess what, we are tired of sitting our black butts down, shutting up. We are tired of being told we need to accept things as they are.
Please everyone listen to us. Listen to the Black Lives Matter people. Stop dismissing us and stop trying to trash people who are pleading to get you to understand. If you can, try to imagine your lives in the form of a black person.
Imagine the fear you will fear when pulled over by a police officer. Imagine now being beaten on by police officer. Now, imagine someone hurling racial slurs and calling you the most evil thing on the face of the planet. This is what we go through every day. You guys are breaking my heart with this infighting please stop and please let's all work together. There is just too much at stake.
I am sorry for disrupting the conversation with my plea. I'll shut up now
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)I do think you may have hit the nail on the head when you said that the anti-Obama sentiments held by many pro-Sanders people can have a really bad effect among AAs. Thanks for making that point. I am not sure what can be done about that. Many pro-Sanders people are to the left of Obama on many issues. One thing is clear though. Treating others with respect can only help. Obama has done some great stuff for this country and even those of us who oppose him on many issues should be willing to say that.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm glad you see my point. I'm not asking for people to love him or love his policies. But just to realize that how you behave can be harmful, and to notice what effect it has on others. I bite my tongue all the time. I'm WAAAAAYYYY to the left of Obama. But as a black person he gives me that sense of psychological security I never had before. There will not be a Katrina on his watch. No Jim Crow. No selling us out just to please white people. Everyone else has done us wrong - reminds me of that song 'Greensleeves'. We love America. We want acceptance and the same quality of life as everyone else, and Obama does not see us as pawns or useful idiots like so many others seem to. White liberals let us down. And they rail at us telling us how horrible he is to us and how bad things are under his watch for us; how h has done NOTHING for civil rights. Talk down to us like rabid dogs.
I wish people would be aware of the differences in the way they speak to black people and white people. I notice a rush to try to 'Educate' us constantly. Like we are their children or less intelligent beings. It does not matter how well I write or how many books I read or how many words I know; I am seen as somehow unable to educate myself and learn on my own. I am not the only one who notices this behavior. I have never tested below a 140 on a IQ test but I constantly get referred to as 'uninformed', told to 'educate myself', that I am 'illogical'. It is so bizzare to see people who would never ever be able to actually outsmart me, see me as dumb, just because I'm black. It's like being a slave with a million masters.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Of course arrogant assholes like me talk down to everyone regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, or IQ. (only half joking)
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)Actually, I would not say one brings the other, but that you cannot have one without the other. If people do not have social justice, then they will be vulnerable, which will result in economic exploitation. If they are rich but socially hated, then you have a scenario where even Rich minorities will be easily targeted, as many wealthy blacks in the South learn, and as the Jews learned in Europe. At one point, there were enough prosperous and influential Jews in Germany that it was called "the new Palestine" and we know how that turned out."
My point is that this is not either or, something that the whole of American politics is ignoring. To be blunt, it does not matter who can get married if they are too poor to afford a wedding, and if you can afford a big wedding, it does not matter if the cops can beat you up on the way to the honeymoon.
I also do get what you mean that Bernie supporters need to stop begin defensive. Frankly, even WITH Obama in the white house, the killings of blacks by cops has been ignored, so if people crash an event, people should not go WTF?
Of course, this is where I will be honest, and try to be respectful as I can. If activists do not do the same thing to Hillary when she finally decides to debate, I will smell a rat. I know I cannot speak for black people, so I will ask this as a question. Why is the person who blew all those dog whistles in 2008? Who helped insult Obama by letting her hubby call him a wuss? Who frankly added the term of "sister Souljah" ing someone to the books. And yes, Hillary is not her husband, which means she can disavow all the nasty stuff Bill did in her name and Bill can just shut up and know his role.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I can be rich, black, and still face institutional racism. I can be poor and white and not fce institutional racism. That is the problem with trying yo say they can't go one without the other. Because that is the EXACT reality we live in.
The activist do no care what people think. Smell a rat or don't. Whoever wins them wins their support, so being extra suspicious and ideological doesn't help. I'll go their way. Most will.
Hillary is trying to reach out to them and include them in her campaign. She is wise. She gets them on her side, especially with how they were basically rejected by the Supporters of Sanders and embraced by the supporters of Clinton, and she wins.
She is doing everything in her power to prevent getting heckeled, being PROACTIVE. Listening.
Being defensive in this situation is a losing prospect. And attacking Obama and saying he did nothing is stupid. What did white liberals do to end racism? Nothing. They did absolutely nothing but attack Obama constantly while the right attacked him racially. We noticed. We notice that the biggest Obama haters on the left are the biggest Bernie supporters. It's getting worse BECAUSE Obama is Black. We LOVE him. Attacking him gets you attacked. Blaming this exploding racism on a Black man makes one look stupid AND racist.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)Just to be clear, I am not blaming Obama for the racism, I am saying that having someone in a position of power who is a minority does not always equal gains. I have said consistently, that even though the Jeb Bushes, Marco Rubios and Ted Cruzes play their Espanol like a fiddle, there is nothing , nothing, that they can do to let this Latino even allow them to be dogcatcher. Why, because frankly, their policies stink. As far as Obama goes, I got pilloried on a regular basis for being an Obama-bot. I remember when just not supporting Hillary on DU got people called sexist, even after many Hillary supporters found out the person they were calling a sexist pig was actually a woman.
However, in matters like the TPP, like Keystone, I did criticize SOME of Obama's decisions, but frankly that was because a) he told us to speak up B) I smelled people ready to talk him into weakening or warping his ideas, and then take advantage when the watered down idea did not work, just like they did for the bailouts (which actually got paid), The Gm bailout (which resulted in keeping GM in America rather than being chopped up and sold to China), The stimulus, and oh yes Obamacare. All of these were good ideas that then got chopped up and blunted by many people, and yes, we had every right to say "Obama, don't let them water it down, we elected you to do this stuff, screw the Rahm Emmanuels and Bill Clintons that want to drive your presidency from the backseat, just so that they can grab the wheel." Despite the fact these ideas Obama had were blunted and stunted by his mostly white "friends" most of those ideas WORKED, and made the nation a better place for it. Obama's ideas worked despite the fact that his friends tried to do everything to weaken or kill them.
I got enraged when Bill called Obama a "Wuss" because he WISELY refused to go to war with Syria, and I was even more mad when Hillary did her book "Hard choices" where she attacked Obama directly. Unlike many of the far left, I did want to see Obama succeed, and I think that despite some areas of criticism, history will remember him as being the person that helped save America from itself.
But frankly, I am not blind to the fact that when Hillary decides to make a "hard Choice" she will stab Obama in the back, so I have no problem asking her to be proactive and cover up weak spots that will be exploited, like the TPP, because this will be exploited not just to destroy her in the election, but so that whatever GOP who tries to win will be able to spend the next four years ripping apart everything Obama did. That is not being racist or sexist, that is trying to make sure the Obama legacy does not get shot by friendly fire, again, something that sadly the democrats are very very good at.
BTW, as far as the one without the other, the point is that Blacks, and indeed, all minorities need to have economic and social justice, and that neither racism nor poverty will really be solved unless both are attacked, on both fronts. Yes, there can be the poor whites that are not called racial slurs, but if the goal is to advance minorities to the point where we are not messed with, we will need to cover both fronts, because if we let one front go, that is where the majority will strike. We know that racism was used by the rich to distract the working class from the fact that the rich cared less about them than the blacks they owned, but that does not change the fact until there are black and brown people having stable jobs, CEO positions, and businesses, we will be carrying knives to gunfights. We know that the majority is racist, yes, and that they have built walls around them, but the brick in that wall is the economic justice side, where the student loan business keeps minorities out of college, where the credit side makes sure minorities cannot buy houses or make businesses. Economic injustice arms racism, we need to disarm it.
Hillary does not need to just say pretty words, or even just make sure pretty laws are in place to make sure that discrimination is a crime. Oh, those are needed, and oh yes, I do LOVE it when she talks about how these "voter id laws" need to go, or how we need to keep the voting rights act alive. Yes yes yes, all needed, all wanted, go Hillary.. However, we do need to hear what she will do for us economically, because economic injustice protects injustice. The LGBT taught us that you need to say "thegaytm is closed" to quote a favorite DU meme. We need to be able to tell Hillary that all these nice words of civil rights are NEEDED, but frankly, we want some jobs too, because we know that regardless of color, America listens to green.
We will not advance as long as we can either be called slurs, or have our jobs or money being taken away at the whim of the majority.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I know you're not blaming him. But many seem to toss out charges that Obama has done nothing. I suppose that I wrote that more for them than for you. Well, they like to blame him Lynch and Holder, which is why it always makes me take notice.
I understand critisizing a policy that you don't like. So many (not you), take it to extremes and just rail away after him day after day and never notice how bad it look. He gets blamed for so much stupid stuff that has nothing to do with him that it's just exhausting. When we FINALLY get a hispanic president you'll notice tgat along with the straight up racist attacks, you'll see nonsense attacks from our side that will let you know EXACTLY how racist our allies can be. It's upsetting. I just ignore ALL criticism now. All of it.
Hillary may or may not stab Obama in the back. It would be EXTREMELY stupid, because it would rip apart her coalition. He is still more popular than her and that will only improve once he is out of office. One wrong move and she'll end up a one termer.
As far as she and Bill attacking him- that did not work out so well. Now Bill is on an apology tour and Hill is running around being as quiet as a church mouse. Obama is a more historical figure than they are, and even if Hillary wins he will still be. And nore popular. Always. Hell, I might add a major in order to focus on black studies and Obama in particular. I plan on doing a master, possibly in Black history/history in order to be a historian teaching the next generation about him. He has surpassed MLK.
I always try to remind people who think that one must have money in order not to suffer racism that that fact only applies to non whites. Looks at the Jews. They had money. Their money was stolen and they were murdered. Blamed their wealt for the poverty of others. Genocided them. We are still finding their stolen wealth in vaults. No. Even our poor shoukd not suffer racism. We do nit have time to wait until black people are wealthy to solve racism. We need new laws protecting us against institutiinal racism and police violence NOW. Whether we get money or not we eeserve the same quality of life as whites do. After 400 years we deserve at least that and more.
Now, of course we want jobs too. That should be a give . Our communities should have never suffered from disinvestment after all the free work we've done to build America. We are OWED. We have ALL allowed our politicians to think they gift us with jobs rather than that their jobs depend on us living well. The only way to defeat any oligarchy is for all of us to stand against them as EQUALS. We are only as strong as our weakest links. We have left our black links to rot and no wonder things are falling down.
I read this article and it sums up a bit of what I was saying too. http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/04/bernie-sanders-top-five-race-problems-the-whiteness-of-nominal-socialism/
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)something I read about in a college history class. Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. Dubois fought over this very issue. Booker T. did not think Blacks would do well until they took over the tradesman class, while Dubois wanted to churn out Lawyers and Academics. The sad fact is, both were right, you needed people to help ensure the laws were written and the peotic sentiments appealed to (Dubois) and people who made sure the Blacks had representation in the trades and shopkeepers (Booker T.)
and one thing I would to like to clarify, by no means am I saying that we need to wait until minorities get more wealthy before attacking the civil front. What I am saying is that the civil front will need money to protect it. Look at the 1964 Civil rights act. It is being attacked by people with MONEY, thwe Koches and their ilk. The only thing keeping it from being washed out is the fact that they know that if they go too fast, all P. Diddy has to do is say something like "the folks that make Dixie Cups helped pay the people that do not want us to vote." Watch what happens if the Koches had to explain why they do not the Civil Rights act to stay..hell they ran on that platform back in 1980. I will tell you what, they will try to ingore it, till no one, especially those "white friends" always looking to use their wallets to prove their credibility, stop buying Dixie cups.
Dem_in_Nebr.
(301 posts)I thank you, bravenak, for putting this so well. I agree with your perspective and with BlackLivesMatter.. I hope people can hear your voice. You are going to become one of my favorite posters.
Thanks again!!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Aside from what the packaging tells me. I see that as the greatest disconnect.
I care very much about black lives. Those inside our borders and those outside of it. Those old and those young. Those trying to make it as best they can in a corporate sponsored nightmare and those who will have to try to survive in the apocalyptic conditions they are creating and those who are assisting in its creation everyday.
Climate change = Starvation, disease, war, dehydration and misery on a massive global scale. This is not a test. It is not a drill. It will be harshest for those unable to insulate themselves from its effects. The poorest, the exploited and our worlds wildlife.
We have to start taking the future many are creating seriously.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That soukds to me a lot like 'Forget the battle on your front porch because the war looms ahead, in the future, so that is more important than you and your children's lives right now.' That is the big disconnect; thinking that our loved positions and ideology or even politics apply across the spectrum and they should just vote for what YOU think is most important. They abd I am saying 'No. Fight this battle with me, otherwise I will not be ALIVE to fight with you later.'
heaven05
(18,124 posts)yet, with BS supporters in general, I feel, you're wasting valuable gray matter on the ones who purposefully want to remain dumb and blind of who are of such a number and opinion of POC that my acquaintances and associates who have read some of their comments have defaulted to the other candidate. That number is growing everyday. I've noticed that since Discussionist site/forum was started this side of DU has become a lot less civil with the RW "scrum" that has drifted over here. And yes I am going to give back what is received in insult, white anger and whining about them having privilege that others don't and have never had and it being pointed out consistently as is their outright racism. Discussionist brought a lot of these types here. I feel this is who you are addressing and who are part of a large gang of BS supporters.
I love your post. It is a real human attempt at reaching the ones who are either uninformed thusly unconcerned about issues that affect POC or really just have never given a damn nor will they ever and no amount of truth, logic, reason or emotion will change them. The latter is usually the case with detractors of #BlackLivesMatter activists among BS supporters.
I respect your attempt it is honorable and shows true integrity and principle. Something a lot of whom you are addressing will never get because they have none themselves.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But there are a few who can be reached and see the pretzels that others twist themselves into to deny the truth. It helps them see how bad it looks and helps them take their own personal inventory and decide from there whether to be ignorant and continue harming or to create positive change. One by one they can tell a friend. They can pass this around from place to place and discuss it.
Maybe it won't help in time for Bernie, but it will help the next progressive candate avoid having serious blind spots; the same ones that we have repeatedly pointed out. Once they realize that our voices just grow LOUDER when they try to shut us down or silence us, they will realize that this shit must be solved BEFORE they get a damn thing on their agenda. Our lives first, then their progressive agenda. Without my life or a decent quality of life, I will not be ABLE to give a fuck about their income inequality; as a black woman, I will never get my full share, or be secure in the knowldge that my kids are safe in my own nation, a nation that my family has lived in since the 1700's. A nation built on the bones and blood of my ancestors. My slave ancestors came here in chains over a hundred years before my white ancestors came here for the American Dream that was denied to my Black ones. I am not taking another generation of this bullshit criminalizing and animalizing of my people. If I have to fucking write a hundred books and Cornell West myself in front of every damn TV camera in the entire continent and rage against this deadly, racist, evil, ignorant land of broken dreams and broken promises, I'll fucking do it. I will SHAME them all. And woe unto the oppresor when I do. They shall feel my wrath. Burn the whole damn place to the ground rather than allow my children to become the next Sandra Bland; my beautiful daughters should not suffer so. I will not stand for it. No more!! This ends now!!
heaven05
(18,124 posts)and a train be a-coming, many trains, many tracks. There are millions of us out here that are just as fed up. I've been fed up for decades now. We do have the moral high ground unlike some of those you address in your OP. Keep writing. Stay angry.:
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
They should see me stand on chairs to make my point. Us New Negroes are just not having this bullshit. And we have technology!! We can record they ass and put them on the Late Breaking New and have Al Sarpton on the first thing SMOKING to talk about they ass BAD as hell on TeeVee.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)this land is our land, also. Done bled for it.... You go girl!!!!!!!
hedda_foil
(16,375 posts)I've been working, both mentally and emotionally, on putting myself into the shoes of African-American mothers, daughters, sisters, friends experiencing even a fraction of the horrors that continue to be inflicted on them and their sons, fathers and brothers every single damn day.
It's hard to do because the level of fear and anger it awakens in me is terrifying, and the guilt I feel for being unaware for so many years is hard as well. But this year. I've finally started watching what has been going on ... the social injustice as well as the economic ... and it's beginning to sink in to my consciousness.
More than anything I've seen or read, though, your OP has helped me to see what you are seeing and experiencing. Of COURSE PoC feel the way you describe, and of course the deep connection to President Obama is something that cannot and should not be attacked. And of course, again, there's a greater degree of trust in the Clintons than in Bernie. They are known quantities, and they have publicly acknowledged some of their most grievous actions during Bill's administration.
Your posts in this thread have made me realize how essential it is for white progressives to work within this reality if we really want Bernie to win. All the great work he has done for civil, social and economic causes can't be used as a wedge to garner the support of BLM activists (and Hilary supporters), with unti they recognize that he might be a closer political match than she is. That has never, ever, ever changed anyone's mind about anything. That's why Bernie never does it, so if we want support from our African-American allies, we must listen, respect and understand what I they say and feel. And we need to help people, like bravenak, who are potential ambassadors to their communities.
Finally, could someone please send a link to this thread to Thom Hartmann? I think he'd read the OP on the air and talk to Bernie about it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I had been trying to figure out how to approach this and I think I will do as you suggest and send it out to Thom Hartman and the Bernie campaign. It may not help in time; but, it will help the progressive movement connect with us on an emotional level. I know people think we vote based on logic, but we don't. We vote based on how we feel.
hedda_foil
(16,375 posts)I just have a very strong feeling that he'll be as enthusiastic about what you've said as many of us are. I'm no longer as good at predicting outcomes as I once was, but it really feels like a great fit. And, of course, Thom and his listeners influence Bernie as well.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Hopefully he gets it and has a chance to look it over. I posted it here too.
http://bravenak.com/2015/08/04/a-message-to-the-supporters-of-bernie-sanders/
hedda_foil
(16,375 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)I want to say I'm sorry that I came into your OP when I wasn't even addressing it. It wasn't the right thing to do.
I'm sorry I did that.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
Nobody's perfect.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)
steve2470
(37,457 posts)I think it will be helpful to the discussion.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Can't hurt.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)economic justice is integral to social justice and vice versa. i do not see that as a controversial statement in any way. i think bernie's S status is a problem, so i've taken to explaining what social democracy means to my more traditional relatives.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Every speech since netroots (by all the democratic candidates)speak to the issues of police violence and systemic racism.
I do think his S status is a problem and his delivery fails with certain groups who are not ALREADY pretty left on the spectrum or non minorities. I personally am pretty far left, BUT, when I speak to other Black people, they are remarkable very capitalist. Like my very own sister. With Obama leaving, most are feeling axious about the next election. Not excited. Not interested in a revolution, especially if it's an 'anti obama's policies' type of revolution.
You can have social justice without economic justice. Our poor should be just as safe as white poor folks. Our rich should too. We have been played so many times, left out of the New Deal, backburnered, nobody believes these promises of economic justice. It NEVER happens. There is always a way to leave black folks out even if they have to lock us all the fuck up or kill us to keep us out. And they do it. Still doing it. Nobody believes. It would be stupid to not demand social justice first.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)and we will never achieve it without the capital to demand it. WE still do not have the capital, social or economic, in spite of a black president, in spite of slogans and marches and appeals. and the reason we do not is because the other side has always had more capital and still does. so #blacklivesmatter elicits #alllivesmatter. does anyone believe the promises of social justice...from democrats? if so...WHY?! hell...i will take justice in any form, because we sure all hell have not had it...in any form.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Then I say, of course not. The Jews had money. Racism and antisemistism came and stayed anyway. Hell, them having money allowed people to blame them for ALL the problem. They ripped that money and jewlery right off in their hatred and rush to murder and murder and genocide.
We let people TELL us we need money to have justice. But they don't need an extra million buck just to get treated HUMAN, so they can say that with a straight face and not even know they're lying. Trayvon lived in a gated community when he was at his father's home. That did nothing to help him. His family got paid, but their son is dead. Nope. Money is just a paper shield.
Democrats have been allowed to take our votes and give us nothing. We get the sane shitty shit no matter WHO wins. It's time they earned this vote or lost. They don't want that. We are just gonna have ourselves a new civil rights movement to address systemic racism. It's time. Money won't save me from being Sandra Bland. I can get money. I want my life first.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)is better. money will not save you or me from being sandra bland, and neither will any law. that is the sad truth. what might save us is a change in the law....and how likely is that?! i bet is slim to none, with clinton or bernie. whcih makes this argument even more absurd.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That is why I am doing this. To help Bernie beat her.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)a broad base of support, including african-americans. most especially african-americans since we are near the bottom of most economic measures. even mlk and malcolm x agreed: social and economic justice are two sides of the same coin. i do not see the need for distinction, especially from democrats. we have taken more than enough from that team, especially the clinton team. bill's triangulation brought us welfare reform...without social justice. democrats and republicons joined forces to defeat affirmative action...no social justice there. obama notwithstanding, democrats owe our continued loyalty more to the opposition than to themselves.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But it is not a winning message. It is not effective and really, we have heard it all before. Time to make waves.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)hear that?! they are too busy courting "independents.": i am starting to understand your post.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I have noticed the talk of courting independents and courting 'the middle' has died down. Their base is tired of being ignored. The left is talking revolutions and the Black are promising to shut down debates. This is the time to make demands. No justice, no votes, no jobs, no winning these damn elections. We don't vote just to give our reps cushy jobs. They are supposed to work for us.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)it has been long past time to make demands. here is a demand: stop taking my vote for granted because the other guy is a racist asshole...or a socialist. say blacklivesmatter all you want: are democrats going to do about it? i have no doubt good people want to affect change, but which demands being met by the democrats?
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)It's quite a long read. At times it felt like reading War and Peace.
Bravenak, I agree with your points both in the original post and throughout the thread. That's purely from my observations. Not from some 'meme' or 'planted idea' or whatever some call it. It's been my gut feelings here for quite a while. It's why I've gone from Bernie supporter to undecided.
My hunch at this point. I think Sanders will do very well in the early primaries. That will tail off as the primary season continues into the bigger and more diverse states.
Some of his most vociferous supporters will deny the negative affect they had on his campaign. Probably the same ones who have unduly trashed President Obama for six or seven years. I don't think they get it at all and would rather blame others than check themselves or approach these issues with humility.
Some others, you're getting through to them. Many of these folks will continue being engaged, continue growing, continue having a positive affect on those around them. I'm always interested in what they have to say. Because they are interested in what others have to say. It's a two-way street. Those who embrace and engage dialogue have always interested me the most. They are the most fun.
