Bernie is gaining traction by avoiding gun reform...

[Sancho]

He's on Meet the Press this am. Again, he only wants to "have instant background checks" and "a conversation". He is protecting the gun lobby. He is gaining conservative votes in the polls from the "Archie Bunkers" who want to keep their guns. Even Chuck Todd said the background checks clearly don't work. Bernie then responded with his hunter credentials and "we need a conversation about something that will work" - just BS that we've heard from the RW for years.

He repeated the "I'm from a state with hunters, so I can talk about guns", when we all know that hunting is an excuse used by gun nuts to avoid serious gun control.

If he can't win votes with any more liberals, then he can pull in a few conservative NRA types. Anyone listening to the conversation today knows Bernie will hedge and never go for gun laws that would actually keep guns from the hands of dangerous people. The 10-15% committed to "guns without rules" are adding to Bernie's base as one issue voters, and it shows in the polls.

[PoliticAverse]

1. What are the other Democratic candidate's plans to "actually keep guns from the hands

of dangerous people"?

[Andy823]

11. O'Malley has a plan

Check it out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251473530

[Sancho]

39. I agree, Martin has come out on this issue

I, for one, appreciate Martin taking a stand on this issue.

[think]

2. Bernie talked about getting the guns used in killings off the streets

He also stated that he is in favor of having further laws to ensure background checks work.

He specifically said America needs to get guns out of the hands of those with a background of violent criminal behavior, people with a record of domestic violence, and people with a history of severe mental illness.

How is that avoiding gun law reform? And how is that protecting the gun lobby?

[hack89]

5. No - he has not called for a handgun ban. nt

[think]

10. Neither Hillary Clinton nor O'Malley have called for a ban on handguns. So why single out Sanders?

The gun man in Louisiana used a semiautomatic pistol Semi automatic hand guns are what these killers are using.

Bernie Sanders is certainly against semi automatic handguns and assault rifles as are the other Democratic candidates.

Has any other candidate called for a ban on handguns? Hillary. O'Malley, anyone?

NRA Debuts 2016 Conspiracy: Hillary Clinton Is Coming For Your Guns

May 13, 2015 10:12 AM EDT ››› TIMOTHY JOHNSON

Clinton's own recent statements about "the right of people to own guns" meant the NRA was forced to juxtapose a series of old Clinton quotes -- some dating back to the late 1990s -- and hope that its readers would make implausible leaps of logic to buy into the conspiracy theory that a President Hillary Clinton would confiscate firearms. The NRA ran a similar fearmongering campaign about President Obama during the 2008 and 2012 presidential elections that also had zero basis in fact.

In the article, the NRA purports to describe a secret plan by Clinton to confiscate firearms. The alleged starting point for the plan, however, is based on a distortion of the truth.

The NRA writes, "Last June, Clinton again said that semi-automatic firearms should be banned" -- a reference to a June 17, 2014, CNN Town Hall meeting with Clinton called "Hillary's Hard Choices." During the broadcast, Clinton expressed support for a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. (She also said she supported expanding background checks on gun sales.)

The NRA is grossly distorting what Clinton has supported banning by using the term "semi-automatic firearms" interchangeably with "assault weapons." Firearms classified as assault weapons make up only a small subset of all semi-automatic firearms. For example, pistols are typically semi-automatic firearms, but bans on assault weapons only cover a small subset of pistols that have military-style characteristics.

Full article:
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/05/13/nra-debuts-2016-conspiracy-hillary-clinton-is-c/203623

An Angry Martin O’Malley Calls for an Assault Weapons Ban

Using an off-color word to describe his anger, Martin O’Malley, a Democratic candidate for president, called for a new national assault weapons ban and other gun control measures in an email sent to supporters after the shooting deaths at a South Carolina church this week.

Mr. O’Malley is the only candidate so far to call for reinstating the assault weapons ban, a politically charged topic.

Mr. O’Malley repeatedly used a word that is sometimes invoked to accentuate anger, and appeared to take an oblique swipe at his leading party rival, Hillary Rodham Clinton. Instead of “jumping to act,” he said, people are choosing to “sit back and wait for the appropriate moment to say what we’re all thinking: that this is not the America we want to be living in.”

He chastised Congress for failing to pass stronger gun control laws in early 2013 after the deaths of nearly two dozen children at a school Newtown, Conn., and highlighted his record as the governor of Maryland passing laws “that banned high-magazine weapons, increased licensing standards and required fingerprinting for handgun purchasers.”

Full article:
http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/06/19/an-angry-omalley-calls-for-an-assault-weapons-ban/?_r=0

Sanders Votes for Background Checks, Assault Weapons Ban

Wednesday, April 17, 2013

WASHINGTON, April 17 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today voted for expanded background checks on gun buyers and for a ban on assault weapons but the Senate rejected those central planks of legislation inspired by the shootings of 20 first-grade students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.

“Nobody believes that gun control by itself is going to end the horrors we have seen in Newtown, Conn., Aurora, Colo., Blacksburg, Va., Tucson, Ariz. and other American communities,” Sanders said. “There is a growing consensus, however, in Vermont and across America that we have got to do as much as we can to end the cold-blooded, mass murders of innocent people. I believe very strongly that we also have got to address the mental health crisis in our country and make certain that help is available for people who may be a danger to themselves and others,” Sanders added.

The amendment on expanded background checks needed 60 votes to pass but only 54 senators voted for it. “To my mind it makes common sense to keep these weapons out of the hands of people with criminal records or mental health histories,” Sanders said....

Source:
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-votes-for-background-checks-assault-weapons-ban

[hack89]

13. Bernie supports an AWB

He has said nothing about restricting handguns.

[think]

16. Did Hillary call to ban handguns? Yes or no.

[hack89]

20. I thought we were talking about Bernie ' s position

I was merely pointing out an error in a post.

Bernie and HRC have nearly the same view on guns. Either one would be good for gun owners.

[think]

22. Bernie's position on guns is very similar to Hillary's. Thank you.

[think]

21. Description of the AWB:

Summaries for Assault Weapons Ban of 2013

The legislation bans the sale, transfer, manufacturing and importation of:

All semiautomatic rifles that can accept a detachable magazine and have at least one military feature (e.g. pistol grip, detachable stock, grenade launcher).

All semiautomatic pistols that can accept a detachable magazine and have at least one military feature (e.g. threaded barrel, a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm).

All semiautomatic rifles and handguns that have a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

All semiautomatic shotguns that have a folding, telescoping, or detachable stock; pistol grip; fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 5 rounds; ability to accept a detachable magazine; forward grip; grenade launcher or rocket launcher; or shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

All ammunition feeding devices (magazines, strips, and drums) capable of accepting more than 10 rounds.
157 specifically-named firearms.

Source:
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s150/summary

[hack89]

25. I forgot about Feinstein's pipedream

I was thinking about the 94 AWB.

[hollowdweller]

19. I think Jim Webb even took Obama to shoot his .45 one time.

[Sancho]

40. To me, the gun supporters listen to MTP and hear someone they like.

Maybe not on all issues, but on the gun issue (and some folks are one-issue voters), they want someone who will keep the status quo.

Bernie had a chance today to come down hard on this issue - in any number of ways. Telling hunter stories is parsing the issue.

I suspect other candidates will have a chance to discuss this issue and we'll see what they say, but in this case I think Bernie is appealing to a set of conservative voters who hear him as "no new gun rules".

[Ken Burch]

147. The NRA gives him a D- rating.

No way Bernie's appealing to the "assault weapons uber alles" crowd. Guns are not more important than every other issue under the sun, and they can't be worth settling for an overall more conservative candidate.

[restorefreedom]

103. we know why

he is gaining and will break down the oligarchy

none of the rich and powerful want him in

[Mojorabbit]

83. That would be a politically stupid move and he is not stupid. nt

[Snotcicles]

105. What do you call this. at 1:22 into the video.

http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/bernie-sanders-full-meet-the-press-interview-491428931566

Post #43 is a total hack job and the poster should be ashamed.

[Snotcicles]

112. No comment, now that the truth comes out. nt

[hack89]

116. He is talking about an AWB ie rifles. Nt

[virtualobserver]

3. If an instant background check won't keep guns from the hands of dangerous people...

give me an example of a gun law that would.

[dsc]

6. HOw about a one month backround check

where we interview your coworkers, your neighbors, your family and look at the criminal records of very place where you have ever lived.

[virtualobserver]

7. I agree with the idea in principle......

but as a practical matter, the crazies would just go outside of the system for their guns.

I am not a gun owner, and have no interest in owning one.....I have on many occasions been in situations where I could easily acquire a gun.

[hack89]

15. So a big enough search to ensure the check fails

Why not be honest and openly support the total ban you desire? Silly games don't reflect well on you.

[dsc]

24. No it isn't sure to fail

it is the process we use to get FBI and CIA agents and we do manage to get them. The fact is owning a gun that can kill literally hundreds of people in a manner of minutes is an awesome responsibility and should be treated far less cavalierly than we currently do. If you want a rifle that holds a couple of bullets then this one second backround check is fine. But if you want a killing machine then you should have to be inspected very closely.

[hack89]

26. All of which is totally irrevelent to 90% of gun deaths

has no impact on suicides. Has no impact on criminals.


If you are going to spend billions of dollars, shouldn't you spend it on things that will reduce the most deaths?

[hack89]

27. How about a data base for people with mental illness

it would make the search easier - you could make it part of the instant checks.

[dsc]

33. I have no problem with adding that to the check

but this notion that we just give out killing machines without having any idea just what a person is like is extraordinarily bad. Our death rate via guns is by far the highest in the developed world. The rate for POC in this country is equivalent to that in some war zones. Black kids blood is paying the checks written by old white people who insist on having easy access to guns. If the relationship were reversed this wouldn't be an issue at all. Guns would have been banned long ago if blond, blue eyed kids were getting mowed down in their neighborhoods at a rate equal to that of Rwanda.

[hack89]

35. Suicides and crime are the biggest contributors to that rate

Stricter checks are irrelevant to either one.

A national antisuicide campaign would save many more lives than your idea.

[dsc]

37. actually backround checks would help both

It would keep both criminals and depressed people from buying guns. Oh, and why doesn't any other developed country have this suicide problem? Maybe because the notion these deaths are all suicide is right wing bull shit. Black kids die so white folks can have toys it is as simple as that.

[hack89]

41. Criminals obtain guns illegally every hour of the day

Last edited Thu Oct 6, 2016, 04:15 PM - Edit history (1)

there is huge black market serving their needs. Do you really think every gang member in America is going to submit for a check? Especially considering none of them can legally buy a gun to start with?

As for suicides, any doctor will tell you only a tiny fraction of depressed people commit suicide. How do you draw that line without removing a lot of people's civil rights? Can you point at a person and say with absolute certainly that he will or will not commit suicide?

Two thirds of gun deaths are suicides as documented by the CDC. There is not a major gun control organization that disputes this.

[840high]

151. ...+1

[Duckhunter935]

65. So how many

people will you hire to do this?

So far we have done 10,466,243 NICS background checks in 2015 so far


https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/nics_firearm_checks_-_month_year.pdf

[Sancho]

49. Since you ask, and I've been interested in this topic for a while...

People Control, Not Gun Control

This is my generic response to gun threads where people are shot and killed by the dumb or criminal possession of guns. For the record, I grew up in the South and on military bases. I was taught about firearms as a child, and I grew up hunting, was a member of the NRA, and I still own guns. In the 70’s, I dropped out of the NRA because they become more radical and less interested in safety and training. Some personal experiences where people I know were involved in shootings caused me to realize that anyone could obtain and posses a gun no matter how illogical it was for them to have a gun. Also, easy access to more powerful guns, guns in the hands of children, and guns that weren’t secured are out of control in our society. As such, here’s what I now think ought to be the requirements to possess a gun. I’m not debating the legal language, I just think it’s the reasonable way to stop the shootings. Notice, none of this restricts the type of guns sold. This is aimed at the people who shoot others, because it’s clear that they should never have had a gun.

1.) Anyone in possession of a gun (whether they own it or not) should have a regularly renewed license. If you want to call it a permit, certificate, or something else that's fine.
2.) To get a license, you should have a background check, and be examined by a professional for emotional and mental stability appropriate for gun possession. It might be appropriate to require that examination to be accompanied by references from family, friends, employers, etc. This check is not to subject you to a mental health diagnosis, just check on your superficial and apparent gun-worthyness.
3.) To get the license, you should be required to take a safety course and pass a test appropriate to the type of gun you want to use.
4.) To get a license, you should be over 21. Under 21, you could only use a gun under direct supervision of a licensed person and after obtaining a learner’s license. Your license might be restricted if you have children or criminals or other unsafe people living in your home. (If you want to argue 18 or 25 or some other age, fine. 21 makes sense to me.)
5.) If you possess a gun, you would have to carry a liability insurance policy specifically for gun ownership - and likely you would have to provide proof of appropriate storage, security, and whatever statistical reasons that emerge that would drive the costs and ability to get insurance.
6.) You could not purchase a gun or ammunition without a license, and purchases would have a waiting period.
7.) If you possess a gun without a license, you go to jail, the gun is impounded, and a judge will have to let you go (just like a DUI).
8.) No one should carry an unsecured gun (except in a locked case, unloaded) when outside of home. Guns should be secure when transporting to a shooting event without demonstrating a special need. Their license should indicate training and special carry circumstances beyond recreational shooting (security guard, etc.). If you are carrying your gun while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, you lose your gun and license.
9.) If you buy, sell, give away, or inherit a gun, your license information should be recorded.
10.) If you accidentally discharge your gun, commit a crime, get referred by a mental health professional, are served a restraining order, etc., you should lose your license and guns until reinstated by a serious relicensing process.

Most of you know that a license is no big deal. Besides a driver’s license you need a license to fish, operate a boat, or many other activities. I realize these differ by state, but that is not a reason to let anyone without a bit of sense pack a semiautomatic weapon in public, on the roads, and in schools. I think we need to make it much harder for some people to have guns.

[Thinkingabout]

86. All good points, I would be very willing to register my guns, carry liabiity insurance, etc whatever

it takes to prevent another Sandy Hook or any other mass shooting events. If NRA has a better plan, then produce the plan, if not then a plan needs to be made. We don't need Congressional members voting with NRA, now ever.

[aikoaiko]

100. It doesn't look like any of these measures would have prevented Sandy Hook

Maybe some other crimes but not Sandy Hook.

[Sancho]

136. I think it would...

The shooter was under 21, had a history of emotional issues, and a parent in the home. To get a license to possess, the parent and child would have a brief interview and disclose those issues. They might have had to obtain insurance that required guns to be secured.

It's quite possible that either the license bureau or an interview or background check of emotional stability would have prevented the killer and the parent from possessing or practicing at the local gun range.

No one expects EVERY case to be caught, but in other countries (like Scandinavia and Australia), licenses and stricter regulations have reduced the killings dramatically. I'm sure some would slip though any system.

[aikoaiko]

170. I agree that not every law needs to work 100% of the time, but people often cite Lanza's massacre...

...a reason to do something, but often the suggestions or even proposed legislation would have had little to no impact on the massacre.

The firearms were the mothers, they were legal, and she was not prohibited from owning them.

There really isn't enough information about Lanza's mental issues to know if he would have been red flagged or not, and there are conflicting reports about how the firearms were secured. Almost any metal cabinet or safe is defeatable with 24 hours and tools.

I say all this not to knock your proposals so much but to show how difficult it is to prevent something like the Sandy Hook massacre.

[virtualobserver]

99. What you propose is well thought out......

I am not a gun owner, and have no interest in owning one, so consider my reaction in that context.

I know a number of gun owners who are very responsible with their guns, but would view some of the things that you propose through an entirely different lens.

They would view some of your suggestions to be subject to potential abuse by an "unfriendly" government. The liability insurance requirement would be the government burdening decent, law abiding citizens with an additional cost.

Also to work, in terms of transfers from citizen to citizen, each gun that you own would have to be inventoried when you get your license. That license would then be a list of gun owners with an inventory of their arsenal that could be used to disarm the population.

The examination by a professional for emotional and mental stability....it is doubtful that they would trust that...

plus, the examination could disqualify all viewers of Fox news.

They would also argue that anyone who was wanting to massacre innocents would have no difficulty obtaining a gun illegally, so these restrictions would only affect the decent law abiding citizens.

Would you trust this kind of information in the hands of a right-winger who wanted to suppress resistance from the population?

[TeddyR]

134. Some of those ideas might have popular support

But many do not. How about we drastically increase our mental health care, make sure our background checks are performed correctly, enforce our current gun laws, and tack on an additional 5 year prison term for anyone who commits a crime with a firearm? None of that is going to stop a criminal from committing a crime -- does anyone think the Louisiana gunman or Roof would care about these issues? They certainly didn't care that murder was a crime.

1. Why license? Some states do and some don't, but I'm unaware of any evidence that a license has any impact on crime or suicide rates.

2. I'd be completely opposed to this. In addition to the potential delay imposed on a purchase, how do you propose paying for this very elaborate background check? Sounds expensive to me. And will probably take forever to complete -- a background check to obtain top secret clearance for military members takes months, and involves queries similar to those you propose. Who is going to pay the physicians to perform a mental illness exam on tens of thousands of gun purchasers?

3. I'm ok with this I believe. You can complete a safety course in a few hours and then test on the weapon immediately.

4. I'd argue 18 simply because that's the age in which you can join the military and serve your country.

5. Nope. This is simply an effort to price people out of owning a gun and would serve no useful purpose. Insurers are not going to provide coverage for illegal gun use.

6. Absolutely not. There's no valid reason to impose a waiting period on an individual's exercise of their Second Amendment rights.

7. What if I already own the gun? If you want to make future purchasers subject to this requirement I would be willing to discuss.

8. Nope, and I doubt you'll find any real support, or at least not enough support to enact. Concealed carry is permitted in one form or another in every state in the Union, and the vast majority of states are "shall issue" with respect to concealed carry licenses.

9. Ambivalent on this one but a lot of people will oppose.

10. Some of these I can live with, others not so much. Accidental discharge should not happen if you are careful and understand how to handle a weapon, but it isn't a crime (depending on circumstances I suppose) and seizing someone's weapon in such circumstances raises serious Fourth Amendment issues. With respect to crimes, are you referring to a felony or misdemeanor? If a felony I am ok with that.

[Sancho]

161. Thanks for at least thinking about it...

without flaming the messenger.

You may want to look at another group that suggests a "license": http://everytown.org

and the effective laws in Australia:

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/australia.php

1996 National Firearms Agreement and Buyback Program

The resolutions agreed to at the APMC meeting on May 10, 1996,[22] provided for the establishment of a uniform approach to firearms regulation that would include

a federal ban on the importation of “all semi-automatic self-loading and pump action longarms, and all parts, including magazines, for such firearms, included in Licence Category D, and control of the importation of those firearms included in Licence Category C.” The sale, resale, transfer, ownership, manufacture, and use of such firearms would also be banned by the states and territories, other than in exceptional circumstances (relating to military or law enforcement purposes and occupational categories, depending on the category of the firearm);[23]
standard categories of firearms, including the two largely prohibited categories (C and D), which include certain semiautomatic and self-loading rifles and shotguns, and a restricted category for handguns (category H);[24]
a requirement for a separate permit for the acquisition of every firearm, with a twenty-eight-day waiting period applying to the issuing of such permits,[25] and the establishment of a nationwide firearms registration system;[26]
a uniform requirement for all firearms sales to be conducted only by or through licensed firearms dealers, and certain minimum principles that would underpin rules relating to the recording of firearms transactions by dealers and right of inspection by police;[27]
restrictions on the quantity of ammunition that may be purchased in a given period and a requirement that dealers only sell ammunition for firearms for which the purchaser is licensed;[28]
ensuring that “personal protection” would not be regarded as a “genuine reason” for owning, possessing, or using a firearm under the laws of the states and territories;[29]
standardized classifications to define a “genuine reason” that an applicant must show for owning, possessing, or using a firearm, including reasons relating to sport shooting, recreational shooting/hunting, collecting, and occupational requirements (additional requirements of showing a genuine need for the particular type of firearm and securing related approvals would be added for firearms in categories B, C, D, and H);[30]
in addition to the demonstration of a “genuine reason,” other basic requirements would apply for the issuing of firearms licenses, specifically that the applicant must be aged eighteen years or over, be a “fit and proper person,” be able to prove his or her identity, and undertake adequate safety training[31] (safety training courses would be subject to accreditation and be “comprehensive and standardised across Australia for all licence categories”);[32]
firearms licenses would be required to bear a photograph of the licensee, be endorsed with a category of firearm, include the holder’s address, be issued after a waiting period of not less than twenty-eight days, be issued for a period of no more than five years, and contain a reminder of safe storage responsibilities;[33]
licenses would only be issued subject to undertakings to comply with storage requirements and following an inspection by licensing authorities of the licensee’s storage facilities;[34]
minimum standards for the refusal or cancellation of licenses, including criminal convictions for violent offenses in the past five years, unsafe storage of firearms, failure to notify of a change of address, and “reliable evidence of a mental or physical condition which would render the applicant unsuitable for owning, possessing or using a firearm”;[35] and
the establishment of uniform standards for the security and storage of firearms, including a requirement that ammunition be stored in locked containers separate from any firearms. The minimum standards for category C, D, and H firearms would include “storage in a locked, steel safe with a thickness to ensure it is not easily penetrable, bolted to the structure of a building.”[36

[JaneyVee]

4. He's still thinking like a Senator...

He needs to start thinking like a President.

[cherokeeprogressive]

29. Since he'll probably BE President, you just might have something there.

[Peacetrain]

8. That is nothing to be proud of.. if true..

[London Lover Man]

23. Not even true..

Sancho didn't even watch the same show I did - I heard differently, and thought he did a great job handling Toad with no, not yet - and finished his thoughts.

And yes, he's for stronger legislation to ensure instant background checks work. If no psychological profile was done, then it should be flagged for a longer background check.

[Sancho]

43. I was posting as I watched...but I think this is the link.

http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press

People can look for themselves. To me, the idea that background checks is the main vehicle to gun control, plus the "hunter theme" are just a way to do nothing new. I'm just suggesting that gun supporters (often conservatives) listen to that language and they might be responsible for some the recent 10% poll increase that analysis says are "conservatives".

It's a reasonable idea.

I think Bernie's record on gun control is pretty well known and he hasn't changed his stance much as far as I can tell. At least he had a chance to jump on something new today and he didn't.

(and I'm not a fan of Chuck Todd - it just happened to be the show Bernie was on today)

[Snotcicles]

74. That was only part of the interview. If you can't show the whole interview, that's crap!

[Sancho]

78. Not my call...

If anyone knows how to link the MTP show, maybe they will post it.

[Snotcicles]

9. 100% Spin. nt

[Snotcicles]

12. I suggest people watch the interview, themselves, rather than believe a partisans opinion of it.nt

[Sancho]

51. I posted the link in 43

Yes, see for yourself.

[Armstead]

14. Quite an interesting analysis you have there -- plus misleading

I don't know. Maybe he should call for a ban on all guns completely. And throw in a ban on slingshots while he's at it.

[Sancho]

56. Hmmm...I'd go for that...

but Bernie had a chance for a specific crackdown on guns besides the "background check" that hasn't worked for years. An "instant background check" (Bernie's words) would imply no waiting period!

I'm just saying his language today was music to the ears of gun advocates.

[hack89]

17. Bernie 's position on guns is very main stream

And in line with the Democratic party platform. I think he is handling the issue perfectly.

[Snotcicles]

45. +1.nt

[Sancho]

80. I'm hoping the Democratic party will get tougher as a platform issue

we'll see

[hack89]

82. They want to win national elections

So I doubt it.

[cherokeeprogressive]

18. Two things: First, someone finally admits Bernie's got traction. Second, you actually think...

"Archie Bunker" types would vote for him. Here's the only way to react to the Archie Bunker thing:



Which makes you halfway right. Bernie's got traction.

[Sancho]

30. Yes, the Archie Bunker types like Bernie...it fits perfectly.

I used to watch "All the the Family" and Archie used to rail against "big business" and "Wall Street" even though he was conservative.

That's what is showing up as the "increase" in the polls for Bernie - a segment of conservatives who agree with him and also support his gun control position.

[Armstead]

34. And there is something wrong with that?

Economic issues apply to everyone, regardless of what they may believe on certain social issues.

If conservative blue collar Archie Bunkers actually start to see the light about who is responsible for their own economic problems, it may well help to build coalitions that overcome the wedge issues in importance. It's a way to get over the "What's the Matter with Kansas?" problem.

I'm NOT saying other issues are not important and require some consistency, but you seem to be saying that only candidates -- and voters -- who fit into your specific template on acceptable positions on all issues matter.

[Sancho]

38. I didn't say it was right or wrong...it's just one explanation for the conservative poll data...

Several of the polls report Bernie increased in popularity from about 15% to about 25%. Sub analysis of the polls showed what some considered that a strange result: Conservatives "liking" Bernie

I simply hypothesized that Bernie's position on gun control (more like the traditional conservative argument) was part of his attraction to those conservative "hunters".

My nickname for those switchover folks is Archie Bunkers, because Bernie argues for some of the same ideas that Archie used to...so I gave them a name.

BTW, I think that economic issues do NOT apply to everyone, especially POC and immigrants. Their issues are broader than economics.

[Armstead]

52. Economic issues do not apply to everyone?

You are saying that certain ethnic groups are immune to the effects of the economy? That a lack of good paying jobs has no effect on certain ethnic groups, or that more opportunities would not help to alleviate problems caused by poverty, gentrification, basic hunger, lack of access to funds to support legal defenses, etc?

Okay, if you want to separate everything out to that extent, that is an atomization of politics and public issues that I have to disagree with.

And when I was younger in the 50s and 60's, the fact that more "Archie Bunkers" actually DID identify with liberal economic positions (unions, min. wage, fair employment, etc.) also did allow for coalitions that raised many boats for working/middle class people of all persuasions.

[Sancho]

77. Absolutely...

If you have a professional degree and money - at least in Florida - you still will be steered by real estate agents, won't be offered membership in the yacht club, you'll be stopped more often, or any number of similar things.

True for immigrants too.

Social justice is much broader than economic justice. If you want to go back - I picked tobacco along side immigrants in the 60's and worked along side minorities in a textile mill in the south. Things are better for me now, but it was a struggle.

Much discrimination and mistreatment still exists. The TPP and Wall Street are not issues compared to a path to citizenship or equal treatment by society. Actually, a crisis exists with families, children, and women's issues also in the sunbelt of the US. Education and legal status are the keys. I'm not sure about Vermont, NH, or Iowa.

We really need more union/labor activity that the state governments keep attacking. We need salary transparency. In Fl, where at least 25% were born outside the US (and maybe 40% have a relative or parent born outside the US), the path to citizenship is essential to end abuse by employers and everyone else. 15$ minimum wage doesn't matter if you're paid cash under the table anyway.

[cherokeeprogressive]

42. Yup. The fictional Archie Bunker was big on Socialism.

Too funny.

[Sancho]

47. I don't think Archie was very thoughtful on socialism or whatever....

but he did rail against some of the same topics that Bernie does: Wall Street and big corporation manipulation.

If you don't like my analogy, that's fine. It's obviously a fictional character (even thought the show was funny and socially insightful).

I was just looking for a way to describe the "conservatives" who might cross over and go for Bernie because of an issue like gun control.

[PatrickforO]

28. Bernie is addressing lots of problems.

It may be that gun control will have to wait a bit. Anyway, Bernie advocates tighter gun controls in cities, and less in rural areas, which makes sense.

[Sancho]

163. So far, that's not clear to me...but I agree that states and cities may differ.

As long as "differences" are not simply a loophole. We have a lot of that now with guns.

My license suggestion would differ from state to state, but some elements would have to cost state lines or it wouldn't work.

[daleanime]

31. ......

[MADem]

32. He is tone deaf on this issue. He can talk all he wants, but

the more people get gunned down in churches and movie theaters, the less people are going to sign on to his version of what is 'good gun policy.'

He might as well just start touting his "not a liberal" persona--stand proudly with Lockheed Martin, wave a gun, and be done with it. The stealth persona makes him appear indecisive, when he's not that at all. He might as well dance with the ones whut brung him--the MIC, and the gun manufacturers.

[Cosmic Kitten]

48. Which nation is selling the most WEAPONS globally?

While the USA arms the globe
and starts wars of choice,
some people DEMAND a candidate
solve our domestic violence problems
on a teevee news show...

[MADem]

50. No one (save you, maybe?) is claiming that some people are demanding any such thing.

He shouldn't make a bad situation WORSE, though. And he does that with the policies he espouses.

And I don't remember anyone talking about "arming the globe" in the "teevee news show" you're referencing....

But hey--great attempt at conflation! World hunger is bad, too!! So's pollution!!!

[neverforget]

54. And he's the candidate of the MIC too!

Even though Hillary advocated bombing Syria and Libya and voted for the war in Iraq.

[MADem]

90. He's More Of The Same, then.

But without minority appeal.

He likes drones, he's like F-35s, he likes Sandia Labs. And he voted against closing Gitmo. And while he didn't vote for the war in Iraq, he voted--over, and over, and over again--to fund it.

[neverforget]

104. Clinton likes all of those and Wall Street too. nt.

[MADem]

113. You can't like the MIC and not like Wall Street.

Where do you think Lockheed Martin gets the cash that fuels their empire?

[Armstead]

55. Only tone deaf to those who delibratly choose not to hear

[MADem]

61. People hear loud and clear how he felt about the Brady bill and liability for gun manufacturers.

The more people get gunned down in churches and theaters, the less they like his approach.

[still_one]

36. The reality is that anyone who believes that any meaningful gun legislation can occur without

Congress is just fooling themselves.

In fact, while it is good to know where the Presidential candidates stand on the issues, most of their proposals can not succeed without Congressional approval.

make treaties with the approval of the Senate.
veto bills and sign bills.
represent our nation in talks with foreign countries.
enforce the laws that Congress passes.
act as Commander-in-Chief during a war.
call out troops to protect our nation against an attack.
make suggestions about things that should be new laws.
lead his political party.
entertain foreign guests.
recognize foreign countries.
grant pardons.
nominate Cabinet members and Supreme Court Justices and other high officials.
appoint ambassadors.
talk directly to the people about problems.
represent the best interest of all the people

[Cosmic Kitten]

44. Where's my PONY! I want a PONY!

Isn't about time Bernie
whipped out a magic wand
and solved all the worlds
problems once and for all!

We need more happy talk!

I demand platitudes!

If I don't hear some feel good,
rhetoric I'm outtie!

Bernie may be a great candidate,
but he's NOT PERFECT!

I demand a perfect candidate!

</snark>

[Sancho]

63. It was an explanation for Bernie's new poll increase - particularly with conservatives

Bernie has the same opportunity as any candidate say his position is the same or has changed. In this case, he is staying the same.

No one asked Bernie to be perfect. None of the candidates are perfect.

On this issue of gun control, Bernie's record and position seems to be closer to the gun advocates than others.

[ibegurpard]

46. Bernie is sticking to his long held positions

That's how he gains traction...on everything.

[MADem]

53. He's not gaining traction with the people who will take him to the nomination.

Republicans don't vote in our primaries, for the most part. There are a few open ones but they're the exception not the rule.

[ibegurpard]

60. then you have nothing to worry about

And can go back to your "he can't win narrative."

[MADem]

71. Huh? Who said I was worried?

That's a rather lame retort. This is a political discussion board--the idea is to discuss issues.

You, apparently, prefer the Team Sports approach. Well, you knock yourself out with that, then.

But since you brought it up--he can't win a preponderance of Democrats--he's alienated the black vote with his insistence that economics can solve all woes, and anyone with a gun control mindset doesn't care for his policies either. He's tone deaf. His views are fine for a tiny, gun-toting, all white state with a population the size of Boston, but he loses it when he gets out into the places where actual people live--the urban and suburban areas that are densely populated.

There's a reason he's been taking his road show to reddish states and white populations--it's because he's going where the support for his views is. You can't win if you're counting on winning with the votes of the "financially comfortable, Volvo driving" constituents.

[ibegurpard]

73. And so you have nothing to worry about

Carry on.

[MADem]

85. Gee. Thanks for giving me that permission....

[darkangel218]

57. He supports hunting?

Thats news to me.

[Trajan]

58. This poster is a Hillary Supporter

Denigrating her opponent for a single policy issue that his own favored candidate does not cover in any substantial manner ...

The notion that Sanders has already tapped out all possible Liberal support, and so, therefore, must now attract right wingers to his campaign to make up some imaginary shortfall of liberal support, is complete nonsense ...

Yet more conflation and obfuscation of Sanders policies and positions by a Hillary Supporter ....

They never tire of their own BS .... But we are mighty tired of it ...

[darkangel218]

66. OK, that explains it.

Thank you for the clarification.

[Sancho]

68. Yes, I'm a Hillary supporter, but I didn't put that in the OP. I'm a long time gun control advocate

I would like ALL the candidates to come out with stronger gun control positions. Bernie has been disappointing to me on his stance, so I watched him on MTP.

I did not know what Chuck Todd would start with, but it was this issue.

I simply think Bernie's language is popular with gun nuts. They like the idea that the only barrier to guns is "background checks".

I noticed that Bernie was picking up conservative poll positives, and I suggested the gun issue was the reason. None of the polls specifically asked about guns as far as I know.

If you have a different reason for the "increase" in favorability from about 15% to about 25% with a large proportion reporting as "conservative", then I'm all ears.

[darkangel218]

70. Then I guess you would have a problem with Mrs Clinton too, for not saying all guns should be banned

?

[Sancho]

88. Actually, I prefer a different method that banning guns...

I prefer a stick license to possess or use guns.

In this OP I didn't get into the other candidate's positions, because Bernie was on TV and I disagree with the old "background check" meme.

I think it explains some of Bernie's favorability with some conservatives.

I prefer People Control, not Gun Control

You can see my view in the thread, or visit the Gun Control Reform Activism group.

[darkangel218]

91. I agree with what you say, as I am aware that there are many who are unfit to purchase and use a gun

My dilemma is, why do you chose Bernie? What is your opinion on Mrs Clinton? Has she taken an appropriate stand when it comes to who should or should not own a gun?

[Sancho]

107. Hillary has come out stronger lately, but none of the candidates go far enough for me on guns.

It's been one of my issues for a while and I hope it comes up in the debates.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/clinton-calls-new-gun-control-laws-outflanking-sanders

Clinton calls for new gun control laws, outflanking Sanders
06/20/15 01:55 PM—UPDATED 06/20/15 04:22 PM
facebook twitter 6 save share group 415
By Alex Seitz-Wald
In the wake of the Charleston, South Carolina massacre at a historically black church this week, Hillary Clinton vowed Saturday to fight for new gun control laws despite the overwhelming opposition. She also said America must address lingering racism exposed by the shooting.

By leaning into gun control, Clinton found a place where is squarely to left of Sen. Bernie Sanders, who has energized liberal crowds across the country and gained steam in recent polls as her top rival for the Democratic presidential nomination.

In a speech to the U.S. Conference of Mayors in San Francisco, Clinton said it “make no sense” that Congress has failed to pass simple gun control laws, like universal background checks. She vowed to keep fighting and promised to achieve reform if elected president.

---------------------

Martin recently posted a stronger control position that someone linked in this thread.

Why Bernie? I think Bernie has taken the weakest stand against gun control of all the candidates. He had a chance this week to address the shootings and stuck to pretty much the same policy. I would have really loved for Bernie on MTP today to have said something like "it's now time for waiting periods, a permit to purchase a gun, background checks that include mental health records, etc. We've tried it with less control and it isn't working."

I would like Bernie (and all the candidates) to make gun control a solid part of their platform.

[darkangel218]

108. Hillary won't do squad, if elected President.

Watch and see.

[cherokeeprogressive]

97. You prefer "People Control". I shudder to think...

[darkangel218]

109. I think he meant stricter regulations as to who would be allowed to own a gun

[Trajan]

81. One might wonder why you aren't on a thread praising your own preferred candidate

Instead of a thread condemning her opponent ...

Because, let's face it - that is the kind of person you are ....

Bernie's numbers among liberals and non liberals alike will increase as the electorate becomes more informed about Bernie Sanders ... Most have never heard of him ... They will ....

And you, Sancho? ... You talk nice game, but, in the end, it's all misdirection ...

[beam me up scottie]

118. +1,000,000

Sancho's candidate is also a "gun nut" who not only talks about hunting, she actually goes hunting.

Apparently it's much too difficult to promote Hillary on her record so they have to push memes in order to tear down the progressive.

[Sancho]

162. I've posted plenty about Hillary and other candidates too...

things I like and things I don't.

Why the personal attacks when something isn't "perfect" about a candidate?

I try to find evidence for ideas, and document as best as I can. Why is that misdirection? If you disagree with something, fine.

I've supported some of Bernie's ideas. I just don't think that overall he's the best candidate, and the gun control issue is one item I have high on my list.

I've stated over and over that I'll vote for the Democrat no matter who it is...

[Turbineguy]

59. Gun reform will take generations.

It has to slowly evolve. The NRA would have to change its funding model. In the mean time many thousands will still die.

[mikehiggins]

62. Not enough POC, secret gun nut, has an illegitimate son, comes from Brooklyn? Where is his birth

certificate? Wasn't he really born in Haifa (sp?) and is Bibi's BFF?

I guess it is time to just stop listening (or reading). I'm for Bernie and unless you can prove he's a founding member of NAMBLA I'm with him to the end.

[Snotcicles]

64. Don't quote me, but I even think he mentioned that if the guns aren't for hunting they should

banned or not exist.

[Sancho]

72. Bernie gun position is well known and hasn't changed...

that seems clear in the MTP interview today. I think Bernie gets some crossover conservative poll numbers because he doesn't come down hard on gun control.

That's not a conspiracy theory - the only thing that's new is explaining why some polls show conservative voters "favorable" for Bernie. If you have a different explanation than guns, then let me know.

...and yes, I think Bernie needs to work harder to get the minority and immigrant base to support him. From here in Florida, he is way behind.

Brooklyn?? If I thought of that I would have mentioned it!!

[MADem]

84. Mixing up real concerns with cultural ones and foolishness doesn't work.

People will pick out the "not enough POC" and say yes, that is a problem.

People will look at 'secret gun nut' and say, no but he has some votes on the issue that are really hard to take--they stink on ice, in fact.

No one cares about his ex-wife, his ex-girlfriend, OR his "illegitimate" son--the guy is an old man himself, now. He's not Grover Cleveland with a squealing infant.

And Brooklyn? Why are you pretending that's bad? His opponent has her HQ in Brooklyn. Not sure where that even came from--most people find Brooklyn to be a most iconically American urban area, because it is such a rich melting pot.

If he was born in Haifa, he'd be a Palestinian, born under the British Government of Palestine--not an Israeli--he's that old. Israel didn't exist when he was born. And if he were Bibi's BFF there would be more pictures of the two of them cuddling.

But people do care about his coziness with Lockheed Martin (after calling them the scum of the earth). And people do wonder if some votes (like his enthusiasm for drones) have to do with that coziness. He's said he's not a liberal, and that's obvious, since he voted to not close Gitmo, he's hopped into bed with Lockheed to get the F-35 for VT, and he's negotiated with them to get a satellite of Sandia Labs for VT, too.

No one is telling you to not support him. You can vote for whomever you like! If you don't want to hear opposing views, though, it might be time to "stop listening (or reading)" as you mentioned-- you'd do well to get off the computer and turn your tv off, too. Because opposing views will be voiced--it's just how American politics works.

[Report1212]

67. He has the exact same positions as Obama and Hillary on guns

Not sure what else you want him to say. BAN ALL GUNS? Obama and Hillary arent saying that either

[darkangel218]

69. +1

[magical thyme]

75. because banning assault weapons and other guns used to kill people, preventing violent criminals,

domestic abusers and mentally ill from owning guns, and closing the gun show loophole is not a viable approach to gun control?

Because recognizing that in some states, including the state he represented as a senator and rep, people literally hunt to eat precludes him from understanding that metropolitan/suburbanized states have a different experience and view of guns?

[ibegurpard]

76. Bernie ' s views on this are mainstream

Anyone claiming otherwise is living in an elitist bubble.

[magical thyme]

79. agreed. nt

[petronius]

87. Sanders has the best and most balanced position on guns of any of our Dem candidates,

but it's far from anything even vaguely similar to "guns without rules." His recent voting shows support for: AWB (bad idea, IMO), magazine limits, expanded background checks, no CCW reciprocity.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jul/10/generation-forward-pac/did-bernie-sanders-vote-against-background-checks-/

[ibegurpard]

92. And the OP knows it

Truth doesn't matter when you're desperately trying to prop up an unscrupulous candidate.

[Sancho]

93. I didn't start a comparison, but it's relevant I suppose...

Someone else in the thread posted a link to Martin's position.

I'm aware of Bernie's record and it's not strong enough for me.

Here are links to Hillary's position as far as I can find:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clinton-makes-big-gun-control-pitch-marking-shift-in-presidential-politics/2015/07/09/4309232c-2580-11e5-b72c-2b7d516e1e0e_story.html

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/clinton-calls-new-gun-control-laws-outflanking-sanders

http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Hillary_Clinton_Gun_Control.htm

I personally don't go for a gun registry or gun ban. I think we need to keep guns from being easily possessed by dangerous people. I would do that with a strict license. You can see my view in GCRA. As far as I know, none of the candidates have suggested that position.

[Sancho]

95. It's not as funny as you think...

Here in Florida, Hillary is doing well with the Univision (immigrant) community and POC in the deep South.

She continues to do well with women. I guess it's early in the campaign, so we'll see as the visits and TV shows go on. Hillary was at the opening of the Special Olympics today. I suspect there were a bunch of parents there.

[Cheese Sandwich]

96. Meatheads for Bernie!

[Sancho]

106. that's pretty good...

[LWolf]

94. Bernie is gaining traction by speaking directly to people's lives,

and offering them a chance to make fundamental change in the way governments work, in making our government work for US.

[Sancho]

98. I think Bernie certainly resonates with some people who want economic reform.

I'm not convinced that everyone wants fundamental changes in government or that Bernie is heard as well in the Sunbelt or in all communities.

For the 25% in Florida who were born outside the US, and the 40% who have a close relative born outside the US, it's not "their government" unless they have a path to citizenship.

For many POC, the current government is certainly the problem - and they want to be able to register, have access to vote, and have districts that are not gerrymandered. Hillary has certainly been on top of that issue early.

[LWolf]

101. I'll refer you to Sander's recent speech to La Raza,

in which he discussed a path to citizenship:

Also in his address to one of the nation’s leading Latino organizations, Sanders spoke of the “critical need to enact comprehensive immigration reform” to give a path to citizenship for 11 million undocumented people who came to the United States to improve their lives and escape oppression. “They play an important role in our economy,” he said. “They are part of the fabric of America.”

https://berniesanders.com/press-release/sanders-addresses-la-raza/

He was very well received.

Why Bernie Sanders Got Twice as Much Applause as Hillary Clinton When He Spoke to La Raza

While Clinton spoke with familiarity to an audience she’s long known, it was Sanders whose speech was the most riveting, drawing twice as many applause interruptions as Clinton's.

Sanders' speech to the nation's largest Latino civil rights organization was notable because he confronted the "stain of racism," his father’s immigrant experience and his impoverished upbringing, and he went into greater detail than Clinton about what federal government could and should do to create more dignity and economic security for individuals and families.

Many pundits have written that Sanders has a problem addressing audiences of color, because he comes from nearly all-white Vermont. But Sanders’ La Raza speech shows that he can deeply connect with Latino audiences. What follows is a transcript of excerpts from his remarks that prompted 45 applauses and a concluding standing ovation.

[Sancho]

110. I did notice that Bernie added the path to citizenship in the La Raza speech

I thought it was one of Bernie's better additions during this campaign that's in the correct direction.

[NutmegYankee]

102. Meh, Both Bernie and Hillary are about the same on guns.

I haven't chosen yet. I like Bernie's Economic views far better, but I think Hillary is the far stronger General Election candidate.

[beam me up scottie]

111. Hillary bragged about going hunting when she pandered to gun owners in 2008:

"You know, my dad took me out behind the cottage that my grandfather built on a little lake called Lake Winola outside of Scranton and taught me how to shoot when I was a little girl,” she said. “You know, some people now continue to teach their children and their grandchildren. It’s part of culture. It’s part of a way of life. People enjoy hunting and shooting because it’s an important part of who they are. Not because they are bitter. I have gone hunting. I am not a hunter. But I have gone hunting."

You said "we all know that hunting is an excuse used by gun nuts to avoid serious gun control."

I guess that means your candidate is a "gun nut" too.

He did address gun control and he has supported it in the past.

So let's be honest, this isn't about what Sanders said, this is about tearing down your candidate's rival.


You are deliberately misrepresenting the interview because you knew a preemptive swipe at Bernie would be more effective than quoting what he actually said.

His pro-gun control stance and what he said today prove Bernie isn't an NRA shilling gun nut.

But don't let the facts get in the way.

[Sancho]

114. That's not true...I was looking at what Bernie said and the poll results...

I'm sure that of all the candidates that Bernie is the softest on gun control over the last few years. That is not hard to document. I can document that if you'd like.

I hope that all the candidates take a stand on stronger gun control in this primary. I've said openly that my favorite candidate is Hillary, and I'll vote for the Democratic candidate. I'm just as willing to find fault with ANY policy of ANY candidate that I don't agree with...

I saw that Bernie was getting some positives from conservative voters and wondered why? It looks like part of the "surge" for Bernie may be due to his gun control language and history. We can't know for sure, but maybe that's why he didn't take an opportunity today on MTP to say something new? It's only speculation. All the poll trends make sense except the conservatives for Bernie - and I'm suggesting it may be the perception that is favored by gun advocates.

I watched the interview, and I don't think I misrepresented what Bernie said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110713531 (thanks HappyinLA) Note: this is posted in the Hillary group.

Hillary 57% overall support
64% identifying at very liberal
58% identifying as liberal
59% identifying as moderate
37% identifying as somewhat conservative
27% identifying as very conservative

Sanders 22% overall support
26% identifying at very liberal
19% identifying as liberal
16% identifying as moderate
31% identifying as somewhat conservative
42% identifying as very conservative

Not only is she +35 overall, she's +38 with very liberal and +39 with liberal.

[beam me up scottie]

115. Bullshit. You deliberately left out part of the interview.

You did exactly what Chuck Toad did, pushed a false narrative.

And it failed.

So why are you supporting a "gun nut" who talks about hunting, Sancho ?

[Sancho]

117. What was left out?

I didn't have a transcript and tried to link the whole thing. Not sure it if works.

Bernie has repeatedly used the story that he comes from a hunting state, believes in background checks and thinks we should do something to "make them work". He mentioned "instant background checks" to stop "criminals" - which I interpret as codewords for "no waiting period" and "no required license" and "no gun registration".

The NRA and gun community (remember, I'm a gun owner) know that HIPPA and other confusion with the medical community will often prevent anyone except the adjudicated mentally ill people off the background check database, even though if they clearly should not have guns. The gun community also knows that it's almost impossible to have a point of sale database that can't be defeated.

I hear what he says with the ears of someone who grew up with guns and used to be a member of the NRA (I dropped out when they "got political&quot , but I'm still in touch with the community of gunners. I think he is benefiting in the polls with his language designed for the gun community.

What is misrepresented?

[beam me up scottie]

119. Now you're claiming you don't know how to post a link?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251475510

What is misrepresented?

Why post what he actually said when you can use selective quotes to spin it?

You also called Bernie a "gun nut" for talking about hunting while ignoring the fact that Hillary did the same fucking thing.

Your op is disingenuous at best, at worse it's dishonest and manipulative.

[Sancho]

124. I did post the link to MTP, but some reported that it didn't show the whole interview

I don't know why.

I said that Bernie uses language that gun nuts interpret as "no new rules". If Hillary get poll traction for her stance for or against gun control, that would be relevant. IMHO, Bernie picked up some gun advocates while Hillary has some solid favorability because she came out quickly after the Charleston shooting about stronger gun control - and that may partially explain why she has such a strong showing with minorities.

There was one time years ago that Hillary told the story of hunting with her father. As far as I know, all the recent movement from Hillary has been back to the stronger positions: gun registry, mental health screening, banning some types of guns. I haven't heard that story in a long time.

If that was a political mistake for Hillary to tell the story then fine, she was wrong. The sport of hunting is not a reason to allow dangerous people from easy access to guns. If Hillary used some kind of hunting as a reason to avoid gun control, I would disagree with it.

[beam me up scottie]

126. "If Hillary used some kind of hunting as a reason to avoid gun control, I would disagree with it."

Yet here you are claiming that's what Sanders did today:

we all know that hunting is an excuse used by gun nuts to avoid serious gun control.

And then you claimed something even worse about him:

Anyone listening to the conversation today knows Bernie will hedge and never go for gun laws that would actually keep guns from the hands of dangerous people.

You posted that after listening to the interview and only quoting part of what he said.


Like I said, dishonest.


Any respect I ever had for you is gone Sancho, your op was swift boating at it's finest.

[Sancho]

165. I believe that "hunting" and "background checks" are excuses to avoid tough laws.

It's been that way for a while, and you can go to your local NRA meeting or whatever and hear the language. It's like the talking points that are repeated, but have a specific meaning.

The gun advocates know that if you say, "we can have access to guns in our state/town because we hunt" that it's a loophole where guns can be obtained more easily and transported to the cities or wherever there are stricter regulations.

Background checks sound like a good idea, except they are always "point of sale" and limited in scope. They often don't have access to useful court records, medical records, school records, etc. There's no way for a psychiatrist or anyone else to put a "warning/hold" on a person in the database. In fact, there are lots of ways around the background checks as we all know.

Bernie knows it too. He didn't just fall off the turnip truck. He's using the language of the gun proponents. I think Bernie is being dishonest on this issue. He has taken a position in the past, and did not change it this time when he had the chance.

To keep guns away from dangerous people you will have to make some gun owners really mad - because you are going to have to make possessing guns harder, track people more, and eliminate some of the favorite toys. Bernie clearly stated that Vermont has very few gun restrictions. His constituents would cry "foul", and "we don't need to do this" - but to keep gun violence down everywhere will take some changes.

[R B Garr]

169. Exactly, he didn't want to veer from his canned talking points to address

the background enforcement question, and it looked like an intentional strategy to not stray from his prepared language to actually answer the question. I saw that and wondered, too.

[Sancho]

122. Just for your interest, and remember that I was posting why Bernie was gaining in the polls...

and why I saw the reasoning on MTP today - that was my OP.

Several people seem to want to compare Hillary and Martin and Bernie. Here's my take, so you're free to check the record:

Bernie has consistently been soft on guns, gun controls, and gun manufacturers:
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/run-2016/2015/07/10/bernies-big-break-with-the-left-on-guns
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/05/bernie_sanders_on_guns_vermont_independent_voted_against_gun_control_for.html
http://dailycaller.com/2015/05/01/bernie-sanders-second-amendment-socialist/
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/12/19/why-isnt-the-media-discussing-the-unprecedented/191910
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2015/07/10/bernie-sanders-misleading-characterization-of-a-controversial-gun-law/

Hillary has been strong at times, backed off, and then come back to a better position: gun registration, serious permits to buy guns, and some kind of licensing:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/06/20/hillary-rodham-clinton-san-francisco-speech/28981453/
http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Hillary_Clinton_Gun_Control.htm
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/clinton-calls-new-gun-control-laws-outflanking-sanders
http://time.com/2891821/hillary-clinton-2016-gun-control/
http://thehill.com/regulation/other/239934-hillarys-2016-bid-energizes-supporters-of-gun-control

Martin has recently come out with a stronger policy:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/19/martin-omalley-charleston_n_7625166.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/media/where-the-2016-candidates-stand-on-gun-control/
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/26/martin-omalley-ban-sale-of-assault-weapons-launch-national-gun-registry/

[beam me up scottie]

123. Not interested in your spin, Sancho. Once you called Bernie a "gun nut" in your op

because he supports hunting you proved that you're pushing a false narrative to promote Hillary.

So I don't believe for one minute that you're honestly concerned about Sanders pro-gun control stance.

Your op is just another in a long series of 'Not Good Enough Bernie' attempts to lie about the most liberal candidate in order to promote one who is too far to the right.

Fail.

[Sancho]

125. You can look at my history for a long time...

and see that I've been interested in the gun control issue.

I also have argued in many other OP's about the details of Bernie's votes and stands over aspects of gun control.
I actually believe that Bernie is not strong on gun legislation, and he would not make it a priority as President. He's free to change his mind.

I said that the language that Bernie was using is common with "gun nuts". You can disagree.

In this case, Bernie seems to gain poll points from CONSERVATIVE voters even if he was the most liberal!!! Why?

I think it's the gun issue.

[beam me up scottie]

128. You ignored what he actually said about supporting gun control today.

You only posted what you wanted others to believe he said and then put your own spin on it.

Chuck isn't the only one who misrepresented Sanders' pro-gun control stance.

Your reasons may be different than his but it's the same disgusting tactic.

[Sancho]

129. Then please...if Bernie has changed his tune what is it?

I heard that him say that he wanted a variation of the "background check" - and that has been debated for years.

He wanted a "discussion" and seemed to think it was ok to differentiate by state - because he came from a hunting state and could talk with the gun community. Does that mean he would be a good communicator with hunters, or every state should create it's own rules?

Bernie likes to talk about the socialistic economy in Scandinavia. Countries in Northern Europe require a license (like I advocate). Is that what Bernie thinks? He had a chance today to mention it I suppose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation#Poland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation#Sweden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation#Finland

I'm looking for something new from Bernie, and there are lots of options.

I think that he did not call for anything new, and his position is translating into poll gains from self-identified "conservatives".
I'm guessing it's the gun control issue. You are free to disagree.

[beam me up scottie]

131. He didn't need to "change his tune", he is and has been pro-gun control.

Not playing this game anymore, Sancho.

If you really wanted an honest discussion about the issue maybe you should have listened to the interview and posted what he actually said instead of making up falsehoods about Bernie:

"Bernie is gaining traction by avoiding gun reform..."

"he only wants to "have instant background checks" and "a conversation"."

" He is protecting the gun lobby."

"we all know that hunting is an excuse used by gun nuts to avoid serious gun control."

"Bernie will hedge and never go for gun laws that would actually keep guns from the hands of dangerous people. "


Keep trying to dig your way out of the hole you created when you posted those claims by insisting you just want an honest discussion about gun control.

Just when I think HC supporters can't stoop any lower you go and pull a stunt like that.

[Sancho]

132. Ok then, then what is your reason for the polls?

It's true that I think Bernie is not strong on gun control as I would like, and I posted a set of links to his positions and opinions from the press about those positions. That's not new.

You can be defensive by "blaming a Hillary supporter" if you want, but my explanation for Bernie's rise in popularity in the polls is directly related to interviews like MTP today.

He had a chance, and he was not prepared to react to the recent shootings and state some gun control plan - in fact, he stuck to the same failed background checks. Gun proponents like his stance.

I think he is certainly the most pro-gun of all the Democratic candidates, and I think the polls seem to be agreeing.

I think it is an honest discussion of the candidates and gun control. I stand by my statements. When candidates (including GOP candidates) want to avoid gun control, they have several pat answers. One is that we don't want to take guns from hunters. Another is that we need "better" background checks. There are others, but that's enough.

I backed up my OP which was based on today's Meet the Press. That's not a stunt...

[beam me up scottie]

133. "I backed up my OP which was based on today's Meet the Press."

You did no such thing, you made claims and couldn't prove them.

How about you start there instead of trying to redirect by linking to polls?

[R B Garr]

157. You obviously didn't watch the MTP clip, because Sancho's assessment

of it was a perfectly acceptable takeaway from it. How about you stop telling people what to believe after seeing something with their own eyes right in front of them on the T.V.

The only thing you're offering are your own dishonest tactics consisting of taking all things Clinton out of context because of a 2008 Clinton obsession. Talk about irrelevant "redirecting".

[beam me up scottie]

177. Except Obama said the same thing about hunters after Sandy Hook:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=477459

Why do you compare Democrats who support hunting to Sarah Palin?

[R B Garr]

180. Why can't you remember that your spin last week sounded like Sarah Palin

to spin Bernie's gun votes?

[London Lover Man]

137. That's all the Clinton hanger-ons has - polls.

They're trying to beat us down with the polls, not realizing the trend is following the exact same pattern from 2008.

Let them *TRY*..

Only difference between Sanders and Obama is that Sanders is a *FAR* better candidate than Obama.

[R B Garr]

159. lol, this coming from someone who parrots Sarah Palin gun/hunting

points if it means covering for Bernie's record pandering to his rural state "hunters". Hilarious.

[beam me up scottie]

171. Why are you comparing Obama and Hillary to Sarah Palin?

Obama after Sandy Hook:

"I have a profound respect for the traditions of hunting that trace back in this country for generations and I think those who dismiss that out of hand make a big mistake."

His comments come in the wake of the shootings last month in Newtown, Conn. The killing of 20 children in the town has spurred gun-control advocates to seek restriction on the ownership of certain firearms such as military-style assault rifles.

"Part of being able to move this forward is understanding the reality of guns in urban areas are very different from the realities of guns in rural areas. And if you grew up and your dad gave you a hunting rifle when you were ten, and you went out and spent the day with him and your uncles, and that became part of your family's traditions, you can see why you'd be pretty protective of that.

"So it's trying to bridge those gaps that I think is going to be part of the biggest task over the next several months. And that means that advocates of gun control have to do a little more listening than they do sometimes."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/01/27/170393072/gun-control-advocates-should-listen-more-obama-says

Hillary on her 2008 Gods, Gunz and Grits tour of the south:

"You know, my dad took me out behind the cottage that my grandfather built on a little lake called Lake Winola outside of Scranton and taught me how to shoot when I was a little girl,” she said. “You know, some people now continue to teach their children and their grandchildren. It’s part of culture. It’s part of a way of life. People enjoy hunting and shooting because it’s an important part of who they are. Not because they are bitter. I have gone hunting. I am not a hunter. But I have gone hunting."

Someone here is completely clueless when it comes to how many Democrats support hunting in this country.

[R B Garr]

173. You remember everything anti Obama and Hillary but forget last week?

LMAO.

Go back and look at your tripe defending Bernie's gun votes in a thread just last week and what you said about poor people hunting. Sounds just like Palin, lol.

Yes, "someone" has an agenda that includes lots of spinning. Spin spin spin.

[beam me up scottie]

175. Why are you comparing Obama, Hillary and other Dems who support hunting to Palin?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=477459

[R B Garr]

195. And "someone" here didn't even watch the MTP clip you are spamming.

It's obvious from your replies that your only participation is to spam anti-Hillary and anti-Obama tangential points someone said years ago in an unrelated context.

THANK YOU for proving your agenda in regards to using Sarah Palin talking points and non sequiturs to smear good Dems so you can protect Bernie from his gun votes.

[beam me up scottie]

197. Why do you keep comparing Obama, Hillary and other Dems to Sarah Palin?

Seems kind of calculated to attack certain Democrats on DU and not others.

[R B Garr]

200. What's "calculated" is you spamming this thread with bogus

spin when you haven't even looked at the MTP clip. Nothing you said addressed the legitimate issues brought up in the OP and instead focused on attacking the DU'er instead.

You didn't even watch the clip, but you're spamming anti-Hillary and anti-Obama rhetoric to compensate for Bernie's gun votes. That's what is a "calculated attack".

[beam me up scottie]

202. Citing quotes from Obama and Hillary is "spamming this thread"?

Oh dear, someone has a sad.

[R B Garr]

204. Yes, you do "has a sad". You didn't even watch the MTP clip,

so nothing you are posting is relevant, hence your spin can be dismissed for the bullshit tactics that they are.

Quoting people from years ago in unrelated contexts doesn't account for the fact that you didn't bother to watch or comment on the MTP clip you are spamming about now.

[beam me up scottie]

206. Aw, you still mad? Of course I watched it. I logged in immediately and celebrated with Bernistas!

We had quite a party!

[R B Garr]

160. The poster you're responding to parrots Sarah Palin gun/hunting points if

it suits Bernie's positions. That's how ridiculous their phony outrage is.

I saw the MTP interview and had the same questions you did. He actually didn't even answer what was asked of him in favor of his talking points, so you interpreted everything exactly right. Thanks for the links in this and your other posts.

[beam me up scottie]

172. Both Obama and Hillary parroted those same "talking points":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=477459

Are you saying because they support hunting they're just like Sarah Palin too?

[R B Garr]

176. You remember everything anti Hillary from 2008 and anti Obama

but you can't remember your own spin from LAST WEEK defending Bernie's gun votes -- you were parroting Sarah Palin. LOL, spin spin spin.

[beam me up scottie]

179. Why do you keep saying Dems who support hunting are parroting Sarah Palin?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=477459

[R B Garr]

181. Why do you remember everything anti Hillary and anti Obama

but parrot Sarah Palin to spin Bernie's gun votes? Now you're attacking another perfectly legitimate OP about Bernie's recent appearance on MTP into some lame spin about your Clinton 2008 vendetta.

[beam me up scottie]

182. Why do you keep attacking Obama, Hillary and other Dems who support hunting?

The only anti-Hillary and anti-Obama posts here belong to you, I happen to agree with them, as do the vast majority of Democrats.

[R B Garr]

183. You can't even remember the Palin-esque spin you wrote last week

about poor people and hunting, yet you post constant anti-Hillary and anti-Obama spin.

Your "spin" doesn't really add up.

[beam me up scottie]

184. Now you're attacking poor people who hunt for food in rural states?

At least Obama, Hillary, Bernie and other Dems support hunters.

[R B Garr]

185. You can't even remember the Palin-esque spin you posted

last week. That's how laughable your spin is. Yet you spam constant anti-Hillary and anti-Obama tripe. Don't blame me for your unfortunate Palin-esque remarks about poor people and hunting.

At least others support actual Democrats instead of parroting Palin just to protect Bernie and his gun votes.

[beam me up scottie]

187. Why do you want to prevent people from hunting for food?

Seems like an extreme position to me, I'm just glad the vast majority of Dems disagree with you.

[R B Garr]

191. Link to where I said what you typed. What's extreme is using Sarah Palin talking points

to protect Bernie from his gun votes. What's extreme is to spam threads over your 2008 Clinton vendetta. Luckily few true Dems use Sarah Palin talking points as you do.

[beam me up scottie]

194. Why do you disagree with Obama, Hillary and other Dems who support hunting?

It's an extreme position and I'm just wondering why you're taking it now.

Did you speak up when those statements were posted on DU?

Or are you only now seeing the light?

[R B Garr]

196. lol, I just saw another response of yours. You didn't even watch the MTP

clip you are spamming about now. I see that happens a lot with you.

[beam me up scottie]

198. Why do you condemn Dems who support hunting?

[R B Garr]

201. You didn't even watch the MTP clip or you wouldn't have spammed

this thread with your bogus talking points. Nothing you've posted has anything to do with the MTP clip from yesterday and the thoughtful questions posed by the OP in this thread. It was worthy of discussion and made some valid points. Pushing your anti-Hillary and anti-Obama talking points have nothing to do with this thread -- very Palin-esque of you.

[beam me up scottie]

203. You mad, bro?

I'll send flowers.

I not only watched the clip, I logged on immediately after so I could celebrate with my homies in the Bernie Group.

[R B Garr]

205. THANK YOU for admitting that you didn't even watch the MTP clip

you are spamming about now. It was obvious.

[beam me up scottie]

207. Why are you lying about my post? I said I celebrated with my homies in the BSG after watching it:

I not only watched the clip, I logged on immediately after so I could celebrate with my homies in the Bernie Group

I'm going to go watch it again, just for you!

[R B Garr]

186. You remember everything anti-Hillary and anti-Obama but can't remember

what you wrote just last week about hunting. Palin-esque to the bone, but not surprising!

[beam me up scottie]

188. I agree with Hillary, Obama and Bernie, why don't you?

[R B Garr]

189. You parrot Sarah Palin talking points to divert discussion from

Sanders gun votes. You can't even remember the Sarah Palin talking points you wrote last week, but you spam threads with your worn out 2008 anti-Clinton vendetta and now anti-Obama talking points.

[beam me up scottie]

190. Do you hate hunting in general or just Dems who support hunting?

[R B Garr]

192. It's obvious your 2008 Clinton vendetta is self-induced. Looking

at your spin, it's obvious. You can't even recognize what you wrote last week about poor people and hunting, but you supposedly remember everything anti-Hillary and anti-Obama. lol.

[beam me up scottie]

193. Obama: "I have a profound respect for the traditions of hunting..."

"I have a profound respect for the traditions of hunting that trace back in this country for generations and I think those who dismiss that out of hand make a big mistake."

I have no problem with his views on hunting, in fact I share them.

Why do you hate Obama?

[R B Garr]

158. Quit telling people not to believe what they see with their own eyes

on their T.V. Talk about a disgusting tactic. And your own spin in the above post says absolutely nothing. You must not have watched the MTP clip. Sanders didn't even accurately answer what was asked, which seems to be a tactic of his.

[Snotcicles]

164. Right here at 1:22 so they can see with their own eyes.

[link:http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/bernie-sanders-full-meet-the-press-interview-491428931566|

[R B Garr]

168. They can see the whole thing with their own eyes.

Quit telling people to ignore their own interpretations.

[beam me up scottie]

174. Don't bother with that one, Snotcicles.

They're not interested in a discussion, just following me from thread to thread comparing me to Sarah Palin hoping someone will agree with them.

They did it to me on other issues too, it's not about guns at all, it's about not being properly deferential to Hillary and her supporters.

[Snotcicles]

208. I don't come in this cesspool much anymore, It's impossible to have an honest debate, besides

I have so many on ignore that it's just a waste of time. I'm sticking with the Bernie group.

[beam me up scottie]

209. GD P is great for entertainment if you don't take most of it seriously.

Ignore is definitely your friend, though.

[ibegurpard]

120. I'd be willing to bet my life that Hillary's never been hunting

Anyone want to dig and see whether she's ever had a hunting license?

[beam me up scottie]

121. Entirely possible, she was obviously pandering to NRA types.

It was part of her God, Gunz and Grits effort to make Obama look too liberal.

[Sancho]

127. I don't have a link or copy of the old story of Hillary as a child and her father.

I vaguely remember it came up years ago. I doubt she had a hunting license in the 1950's or whatever. If anyone cares and finds the link that fine.

At the current time, Hillary is NOT using language or advocating keeping a version of the current gun control in place. She has called for gun registration in the past, but backed away. That may be because she didn't think it would pass anyway.

Links to Hillary's recent discussions are in the thread as far as I have them.

[Agnosticsherbet]

130. His record on gun control is why I will probably will not support him in the Primary.

He is not running for President of Vermont.

[Koinos]

135. One of the reasons I am no longer supporting him.

I donated to his campaign. I supported him. I now support a candidate I am much more comfortable with. My candidate is strong on gun control. I despise the gun culture in this country.

[Ken Burch]

148. There are no other genuinely progressive candidates in the race.

The others are tolerable, but just status quo types.

[Koinos]

150. Your opinion only.

[London Lover Man]

138. He's always been pro gun-control

You can buy what the right-wing lies they shovel to you.... but Bernie's record is mainstream Democratic values in terms of gun control.

NRA has given Sanders a rating of D- and F respectively. Do you think he's a gun nut? If that's your only issue and you think Clinton is any better (hint: she's the same view as Sanders), then by all means, go run to Clinton if you think she's going to protect you...

[Agnosticsherbet]

139. Look up all his votes on gun control issues. Why would you believe the NRA when you can check every

vote yourself.

You will find that the vast majoirty of all his votes have been against gun controls.

[beam me up scottie]

140. I don't believe the NRA or HC supporters when it comes to the issues:

http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/Bernie_Sanders_Gun_Control.htm

Bernie Sanders on Gun Control

Socialist Jr Senator; previously Representative (VT-At-Large)

Voted YES on banning high-capacity magazines of over 10 bullets.

Voted YES on allowing firearms in checked baggage on Amtrak trains.

Voted YES on prohibiting foreign & UN aid that restricts US gun ownership.

Voted YES on prohibiting product misuse lawsuits on gun manufacturers.

Voted YES on prohibiting suing gunmakers & sellers for gun misuse.

Voted NO on decreasing gun waiting period from 3 days to 1.

Rated F by the NRA, indicating a pro-gun control voting record.

Sanders scores F by NRA on pro-gun rights policies

While widely recognized today as a major political force and as America's foremost defender of Second Amendment rights, the National Rifle Association (NRA) has, since its inception, been the premier firearms education organization in the world. But our successes would not be possible without the tireless efforts and countless hours of service our nearly three million members have given to champion Second Amendment rights and support NRA programs.

The following ratings are based on lifetime voting records on gun issues and the results of a questionaire sent to all Congressional candidates; the NRA assigned a letter grade (with A+ being the highest and F being the lowest).
Source: NRA website 02n-NRA on Dec 31, 2003

***

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-votes-for-background-checks-assault-weapons-ban

Sanders Votes for Background Checks, Assault Weapons Ban
Wednesday, April 17, 2013
WASHINGTON, April 17 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today voted for expanded background checks on gun buyers and for a ban on assault weapons but the Senate rejected those central planks of legislation inspired by the shootings of 20 first-grade students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.

“Nobody believes that gun control by itself is going to end the horrors we have seen in Newtown, Conn., Aurora, Colo., Blacksburg, Va., Tucson, Ariz. and other American communities,” Sanders said. “There is a growing consensus, however, in Vermont and across America that we have got to do as much as we can to end the cold-blooded, mass murders of innocent people. I believe very strongly that we also have got to address the mental health crisis in our country and make certain that help is available for people who may be a danger to themselves and others,” Sanders added.

The amendment on expanded background checks needed 60 votes to pass but only 54 senators voted for it. “To my mind it makes common sense to keep these weapons out of the hands of people with criminal records or mental health histories,” Sanders said.

Under current federal law, background checks are not performed for tens of thousands of sales – up to 40 percent of all gun transfers – at gun shows or over the Internet. The amendment would have required background checks for all gun sales in commercial settings regardless of whether the seller is a licensed dealer. The compromise proposal would have exempted sales between “family, friends, and neighbors.”

In a separate roll call, the Senate rejected a proposal to ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. That proposal was defeated by a vote of 60 to 40.

***

https://libertyinthehills.wordpress.com/letters/gun-control/sanders-gun-control/

United States Senator Bernie Sanders on Gun Control
Return to Gun Control Letters Page

Response from U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders to my email addressing my concerns about gun control and infringements upon 2nd Amendment rights:

February 15, 2013

Dear Mr. Phillips:

Thank you for contacting me about the federal response to gun violence in this country. I appreciate the opportunity to respond to your concerns.

There is a proud tradition of gun ownership in Vermont, which I celebrate and strongly support. Thousands of Vermont families enjoy hunting, target shooting and other gun-related activities. Well over 99 percent of them are law-abiding citizens who are extremely careful with their weapons. Their rights must be protected as we proceed with this national debate.

On the other hand, very few deny that we must do everything we can to end the horror of mass killings that we have seen at Newtown, Connecticut, Aurora, Colorado, Blacksburg, Virginia, Tucson, Arizona and in other American communities.

It has long been my position from before I was elected to Congress in 1990 that gun regulation is largely a local issue best decided by the states, but that there are times when it does become a federal issue and Congress must act. One of the issues that concerns me is that, because of inadequate background checks, there are now too many people who own guns who should not have them – including felons, and people with severe mental illness. I also worry about the lack of effective investigative tools and sanctions for “straw purchases,” where people legally able to buy guns act as a front purchaser for criminals.

In my view, the debate over mass killings should not be only about guns. In my view, Congress must consider a comprehensive approach which also includes a serious discussion about the need for greatly expanded mental health services and ending gratuitous violence in the media. It is imperative that Americans who need mental health services be able to access them in a timely manner. That is not the case today. Several hearings that I recently attended made it very clear that throughout our country there are thousands of Americans who harbor suicidal/homicidal thoughts – and are unable to find treatment at a cost they can afford. That must change.

Again, thank you for contacting me about this important issue. Feel free to contact me again in the future about this or any other subject of interest to you, or for up-to-date information on what my office is working on please visit http://www.sanders.senate.gov. While there, I invite you to sign up for my e-newsletter, the Bernie Buzz, at http://sanders.senate.gov/buzz/. Please be aware that due to security screening procedures, postal mail to my office experiences delays that will lengthen the time it takes me to get back to you. The fastest way to contact my office is by calling 1-800-339-9834.

Sincerely,

BERNARD SANDERS
United States Senator

[Agnosticsherbet]

142. Sanders voted to immunize gun corporations and against the Bradey bill. You proved my point.

Imunizing gun cororations and voting against the Bradey bill being the worst. Bernie Sanders likes corporations that make guns and refuses to allow citizens to hold them responsible.

Your own list shows why he is pro gun. Oh, there were a few good votes, but his record is soldly pro-gun.

Look at the votes not what the NRA says. They are a pack of liars.

He has the worst record of any of our candidates on gun regulations.

Hopefully he will evolve on this issue.

[beam me up scottie]

143. " Bernie Sanders likes corporations that make guns ..."

Here I thought I was dealing with someone who was honestly concerned about the issue.

He doesn't need to evolve, he is pro-gun control and his record proves it.

Keep spouting those talking points, it really worked out well for the op.

[Agnosticsherbet]

144. Keep proving Sanders is pro-gun, it is a service.

I do have a problem with the cognitive dissonance in the Bernie Sandes web site.

Showing that he immunized corproations and voted against the Bradey Bill and trying to balance that with and "F" from the liars aof the NRA is a double message.

[beam me up scottie]

149. Actually your side has been pushing this meme for months and it still hasn't turned off DUers.

But keep kicking the op and showing everyone how low HC supporters will go to promote their candidate.

If Hillary had a better record Sancho would be posting about that instead of making false claims and calling Bernie a "gun nut".

And you would be posting in those non-existent positive threads with them.

The fact that you're here now proves how desperate you guys are.

[Agnosticsherbet]

167. I don't have a side, so I am able to read his record without tryin to justify Sanders

I will not make up my mind on who I support for the job of my representative in the executive branch until June of 2015 when California holds the primary.

[ibegurpard]

156. No hopefully he wont.

You want to make guns illegal? THEN you can go after gun manufacturers. As it stands now you could still sue them for a faulty device but you can't sue them because someone used a gun to kill someone. That's the whole point of a gun... it's a weapon. Bernie supports reasonable gun control measures but he voted down SLAP suits...as he should have.

[cherokeeprogressive]

141. Oops. DAMN!

I trashed this thread by accident.

[Ken Burch]

145. Bullshit. Bernie is gaining progressive and Democratic votes every day.

He's only seven points behind HRC in New Hampshire.

[Sancho]

152. Well, the entire OP was about Bernie gaining CONSERVATIVE poll votes, and a possible reason.

If you have another explanation for self-described conservatives favorable towards Bernie, then let's hear it.

Maybe one reason Bernie has been attacked over things like Netroots is the defensive nature of his message that doesn't have room for criticism. Who knows?

If my theory is correct, that means Bernie might lose those votes when a GOP candidate is more visible.

I guess we'll see.

[Ken Burch]

154. Bernie has actually come out better after the Netroots thing.

He listened and responded...and responded well. He's now gaining among PoC and the "Bernie doesn't get it" meme is being laid to rest (the Netroots protest wasn't specifically anti-Bernie...they were madder at O'malley for saing "All Lives Matter&quot .

HRC doesn't actually have a better policy offer for PoC than Bernie does.

[Ken Burch]

146. Tougher gun laws can't be worth more conservative policies on everything else.

They damn well weren't in the Nineties.

[Sancho]

153. That's my theory. Is it something else Bernie said, or are the polls simply wrong?

What is the explanation for a 15% rise in Bernie's favorability with the very conservatives?

Is he perceived soft on gun control? That a strong issue for some folks.

Whatever the reason, either the polls are mistaken or Bernie's message is misunderstood or else his policy on some issue is getting to them.

[Ken Burch]

155. More likely, it is something else.

Bernie speaks to them on economic issues(and in doing so, is moving them to a more inclusive position on social issues as well, IMHO).

I think some of them may simply be realizing, hearing Bernie's clarity, that right-wing politics doesn't actually serve their real interests. In other words, people actually can change.

[NCTraveler]

166. He isn't avoiding gun reform.

He is speaking for his constituents and their wants. As Sanders said, the problem with guns is not the rural people of Vermont, it is the gangs in LA and Chicago. They truly believe this. It is an NRA talking point brought about for his need to fight for his constituency. It is a provably false and offensive meme promoted by the NRA. Fighting to keep guns sales up is not avoiding gun reform, just the opposite. And to be clear, this NRA talking point, is designed to do just that.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

178. You should sign up for his twitter feed.

A tweet from 7 hours back or so:

"Certain types of guns exclusively used to kill people, not for hunting, should not be sold in America."

That doesn't sound like 'avoiding gun reform'. That sounds like a call for a ban on handguns.

[Raymond31]

199. And yet...

He is still more than electable as a candidate. There are many issues to be solved that he will need to tackle.

[WDIM]

210. Giving police more power to harass poc's is not going to solve anything.

Gun bans will do nothing but give our militarized police more power to harrass people of color.

[libodem]

211. I don't think so

[img][/img]


Clear enough?