2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSenator Bernie Sanders vs Hillary Clinton on Social Security
Senator Bernie Sanders: Raise taxes on the wealthy to boost Social SecurityIf Republicans are serious about extending the solvency of Social Security beyond 2033, I hope they will join me in scrapping the cap that allows multi-millionaires to pay a much smaller percentage of their income into Social Security than the middle class, Sanders said.
The Social Security trust fund that provides benefits to retired and disabled people is largely funded by the payroll tax. Right now, 6.2 percent of the payroll tax income from employees and employers is allotted to Social Security, and then that revenue is divided between the two funds.
That is patently unfair, Sanders said. If we apply the Social Security payroll tax to income above $250,000, we could immediately bring in enough revenue to the Social Security trust fund to extend it for decades and also be able to increase benefits.
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/232297-sen-sanders-offers-plan-to-extend-life-of-social-security
Hillary Clinton: Don't tax the wealthy to boost Social Security
http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Hillary_Clinton_Social_Security.htm
The article points out that Factcheck has shown that very few teachers, etc. earned over $102,000 per year in 2008.
CLINTON: I am totally committed to making sure Social Security is solvent. Youve got to begin to reign in the budget, pay as you go, to try to replenish our Social Security Trust Fund. And with all due respect, the last time we had a crisis in Social Security was 1983. Pres. Reagan and Speaker Tip ONeill came up with a commission. That was the best and smartest way, because youve got to get Republicans and Democrats together. Thats what I will do.. And I will say, #1, dont cut benefits on current beneficiaries theyre already having a hard enough time. And #2, do not impose additional tax burdens on middle-class families.
http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Hillary_Clinton_Social_Security.htm
With a tip of the hat to the awesome DU poster, woomewithscience
The Cat Food Commission
Did we find out where Woo is?
Pastiche423
(15,406 posts)If he'd just PM someone so we'd know he's o-kay.
TheNutcracker
(2,104 posts)CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)kath
(10,565 posts)I want our Party back.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)rock
(13,218 posts)If the cap on the tax that funds SS is taken off then are the payments readjusted for retirement? And if they are what can a multi-billionaire expect to pay and then collect when he retires? Obviously it doesn't make any sense to remove the cap for what he pays and then when he retires to pay him the same as a retiree who made (say) $80,000 a year.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Asking them to pay more into the system that supports their wealth makes perfect sense.
That said, the solution is really quite simple: regressive benefit rate based on income. We already have a progressive benefit rate based on retirement age. The older you retire, the higher percentage you get paid monthly of what you paid in.
You could do the same thing based on what has been paid in. Let's say with the current cap the most you can pay into social security is $1,400,000. Then we could set up brackets similar to the progressive earned income tax rate.
0 - 1400000 = receive 100% of the retirement age benefit on the first 1400000
1400001 - 2800000 = receive 80% of the retirement age benefit on the next 1400000
2800001 - 4200000 = receive 60% of the retirement age benefit on the next 1400000
4200001 - 5600000 = receive 40% of the retirement age benefit on the next 1400000
5600001 - 7000000 = receive 20% of the retirement age benefit on the next 1400000
We could either cap social security payments at this point. Or just not pay out any more benefits in exchange for contributions above the $7,000,000. If you've been making a $1,000,000 a year for 40 years and managed not to save up enough money for retirement.... That is just on you.
It shouldn't be the government's job to take care of the wealthy and powerful. They can take care of themselves.
These are just numbers. They can be changed. Your (say) is around $117,000 a year at the moment, for instance. But it would have served perfectly well for this discussion.
rock
(13,218 posts)I think I get the main driver here:
1) the richer you are the more you pay in; I'm assuming a low percentage like it is now (7 1/2%);
2) at retirement you receive a payment that depends on how much you paid in;
Now I take it you would be limited to a pay in (in your example) of 7 million and thus there would be a limit on payback. Right? This sounds a lot like it is now except the cap has been raised considerably (not eliminated). Again, am I following the idea or in deep space?
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)I would continue the principle of Social Security benefits being related to the amount paid in. This would mean huge monthly checks to retirees who were highly paid.
The other component of my plan would be to restore progressive taxation and see to it that these outlandishly high benefits were properly taxed. The basic principle of progressive taxation is sound -- that those with the highest income can afford to pay a higher percentage tax rate -- and in applying that principle, there is no a priori reason that income from Social Security should be treated differently from other income.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)CEO's would pay in more. CEO's would be returned more in retirement. But they would receive a lower percentage return than the working class. This would be a fundamental change to Social Security in that currently everyone receives the exact same percentage return. But it would mean that social security funding would receive a net increase thereby ensuring funding into the future. And I'm pretty CEO's don't actually need social security in their retirement (which is why they are trying to get rid of it for everyone else who does).
I believe Sanders' plan completely eliminates the cap as opposed to my example where I quadruple the cap. I am capping both contributions and benefits. I believe Sanders' current plan is to only cap benefits for the CEOs while completely eliminating caps for contributions. Were I President I would start with Sanders' plan and negotiate down to my plan.
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Sancho
(9,070 posts)the old links from 2008 was a different economy, and SS is not in really in trouble now. OTOH, states are killing public employees right now by reducing benefits, increasing contributions (despite promises when hired), and simply not honoring collective bargaining agreements with people who worked for every penny.
Bernie's insane plan to tax transactions opens the door for a big losses of retirement going to public workers. My union analysis makes Bernie the last candidate to endorse simply because of the Robin Hood tax.
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/collegeforallsummary/
Fully Paid for by Imposing a Robin Hood Tax on Wall Street. This legislation is offset by
imposing a Wall Street speculation fee on investment houses, hedge funds, and other speculators of
0.5% on stock trades (50 cents for every $100 worth of stock), a 0.1% fee on bonds, and a 0.005%
fee on derivatives. It has been estimated that this provision could raise hundreds of billions a year
which could be used not only to make tuition free at public colleges and universities in this country,
it could also be used to create millions of jobs and rebuild the middle class of this country.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/31/why-free-college-is-really-expensive.html
Why Free College is Really Expensive
Everyone knew Bernie Sanders would propose a tax on Wall Street. But spending that money on college tuition is a cynical handout to the upper-middle class.
Even Sanders himself, however, lists the Robin Hood tax as an afterthought; after all, if you raise a Robin Hood tax you can do a long list of things with the money you get from it (including cutting other taxes, or spending on other initiatives). The emphasis from Sanders statements is where the money will go: paying for tuition for public colleges.
The first problem with Sanders proposal is that a national tuition subsidy will be counterproductive even on its own terms. The proposal will cut the economic legs out from underneath innovations such as open online courses, which may be on the cusp of delivering low-cost, high-quality college education for all. Organizations trying to deliver radical new models will now have to compete against a $70 billion subsidy for the old system.
Additionally, directing that much guaranteed money into a system is a sure-fire way to accelerate cost inflation. The state may pick up the tab for tuition, but students will still have to pay for ancillary services (such as room, board, textbooks, etc.), and those services will go up in price. These costs are not trivial; for instance, although Sweden has abolished college tuition, students graduate with more debt than students in the United Kingdom, and only slightly less than students in the US. Through economic incompetence, Sanders proposal might hit the jackpot of reducing college quality while also increasing cost.
Economically bad policy design from Sanders is not surprising. After all, the man is a self-declared Socialist. His appeal was not policy wonkery; as a protest candidate, Sanders (we hoped) would at least identify the right issues, even if his solutions were unworkable. In this case, Sanders has pointed out the wrong problem.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDiscussion/comments/36vmm8/what_are_some_legitimate_arguments_against_bernie/
[]DeadMonkey321 50 points 12 days ago*
Apparently (according to a tax lawyer who was running around one of the earlier threads), there was no exception for 401k's, meaning that every time the mutual funds in your retirement fund rebalance, which should be a few times a year, you're paying a tax and losing money from your retirement.
Edit: just used the calculator found here to calculate the costs of 0.5% over 40 years assuming you were investing just $5500/year (the max allowable to an IRA). Using these assumptions, this tax would cost you, the average investor, $157,000 over the 40 years you're investing. This is money that I'm sure you'd prefer going towards your retirement.
Note: this isn't 100% accurate as I'm treating this as an addition to the expense ratio which isn't totally correct, but it's a ballpark figure to give the tax some context
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/05/29/1388484/-Bernie-Sanders-big-idea-has-a-math-problem#
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Bernie Sanders' big idea has a math problem
The tax Bernie Sanders is talking about is pretty much like a sales tax on certain financial market transactions. I don't know the exact rate Bernie included in his bill, but the Robin Hood Tax group calls for a rate of 0.5%, or one-tenth the average state sales tax. Given that the total value of transactions in the stock, commodity and various other financial markets numbers in the trillions of dollars annually, the idea that this tax could generate enough to pay for sending young Americans to college would seem reasonable.
For example, such a tax on the $550+ billion spent on stock buybacks by the S&P 500 in 2014 would yield $2.75 billion in taxes. That's just shy of 2% of the total needed and stock buybacks are about the least productive use of corporate funds: American companies are substituting these buybacks for investments in their companies that might produce real growth instead of an illusion. Of course, they do increase the value of executive bonuses and stock options...
But wait! That's a huge chunk of change being taxed to yield only a tiny percentage of the amount Bernie Sanders thinks the market would generate.
The truth is that in order for a financial transaction tax to generate $300 billion at a 0.5% rate, the total amount of taxable financial transactions would have to be $60 trillion. Even at the average sales tax rate of 5%, the amount of taxable transactions has to be $6 trillion annually.
Just to generate enough to pay for public college tuition, the taxable amount has to be at least $29.2 trillion. And that's if nobody comes up with schemes to legally (or not) avoid the tax.
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I just looked at NY, AZ, WI, CA, etc..these funds are often public employees represented by unions. This money is hard-fought. It's collected and invested for decades by whatever office each state sets up - in Florida it's almost 200 billion invested by a staff of 200 who are constantly buying, selling, and trading. Also, some funds are in the hands of large private investment companies. They clearly complete transactions everyday, which include stocks, bonds, real estate, derivatives, commodities. Most of the time, no type of investment is out of bounds unless the state or controlling board specifically limit them. Those investments would be TAXED by Bernie's transaction tax. That retirement money is earned by public employees, often union members: teachers, professors, police, firemen, city employees, social workers, park rangers, etc. Every penny that fund doesn't contain, is a penny that labor has to fight over.
For example, you can see in AZ the following allocation:
Equity/Stocks: 58%
U.S. Equity: 26%
Non-US Equity: 24%
Private Equity: 8%
Fixed Income: 25%
U.S. Fixed Income: 15%
Private Debt: 10%
Inflation Linked Assets: 12%
Real Estate: 10%
Commodities: 2%
https://www.azasrs.gov/content/asset-allocation
https://www.osc.state.ny.us/pension/overview.htm
http://www.calstrs.com/investments-overview
http://www.sbafla.com/fsb/
The State Board of Administration (SBA) was created by the Florida Constitution and is governed by a three-member Board of Trustees (Trustees), comprised of the Governor as Chair, the Chief Financial Officer and the Attorney General.
The Trustees, in concert with legislative directives, have ultimate oversight. They delegate authority to the Executive Director/Chief Investment Officer to carry out the strategic direction in the day-to-day financial investments and operations of the agency. The Executive Director/CIO manages approximately 190 professional investment and administrative support staff.
The SBA is required to invest assets and discharge its duties in accordance with Florida law and in compliance with fiduciary standards of care. Under state law, the SBA and its staff are obliged to:
Make sound investment management decisions that are solely in the interest of investment clients.
Make investment decisions from the perspective of subject-matter experts acting under the highest standards of professionalism and care, not merely as well-intentioned persons acting in good faith.
http://chronicle.com/article/Bernie-Sanderss-Charming/231387?cid=megamenu
July 6, 2015
Bernie Sanders's Charming, Perfectly Awful Plan to Save Higher Education
By Kevin Carey
Bernie Sanders, the self-described socialist senator, Internet hero, and apparent front-runner in the race for second place in the 2016 Democratic presidential campaign, has ideas about higher-education reform. Like the man himself, they are bold, charmingly utopian, kind of weird, and most important for how they might eventually move the boundaries of mainstream political culture.
Sanders wants every student in America to be able to attend a public college or university without paying tuition. Legislation he proposed to that effect a few weeks ago includes a reasonably plausible mechanism of multibillion-dollar federal subsidies and new regulation of state spending. The current Congress, it is safe to say, will not soon be passing such a bill.
But in trying to define a new fiscal federalism for American higher education, Sanders has sparked a conversation that is likely to expand. Without something like the Sanders plan, the disgraceful dismantling of public higher education, underway in many states, will certainly continue.
The no-tuition part of the Sanders plan attracted a great deal of attention, aided by canny headline writers who understand that "Bernie Sanders" is catnip for social media. Less discussed was the corollary part of the plan: In exchange for billions of new taxpayer dollars, the federal government would enforce a specific vision of what a high-quality college education means.
States would have to promise that, within five years, "not less than 75 percent of instruction at public institutions of higher education in the State is provided by tenured or tenure-track faculty." In addition, any funds left over after eliminating tuition could be used only for purposes such as "expanding academic course offerings to students," "increasing the number and percentage of full-time instructional faculty," providing faculty members with "supports" such as "professional development opportunities, office space, and shared governance in the institution." States would be prohibited from using the money for merit-based financial aid, "nonacademic facilities, such as student centers or stadiums," or "the salaries or benefits of school administrators."
dsc
(52,172 posts)there are certainly many administrators who do (and last I checked they are educators). I actually agree with her on this but for a different reason. SS is in trouble, not because it doesn't take in enough revenue but because the extra revenue it took in, in the 1980's, 1990's, and 2000's were used to keep taxes artificially low in other areas and to permit increased defense spending. The taxes that ought to be raised to replenish those funds are the ones that were cut in the 1980's (income, corporate, and capital gains taxes).
John Poet
(2,510 posts)payroll taxes on income over $100k. Abolish the cap.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)There is a reason why Hillary's supporters do not post about her on the issues, they seem to talk about anything BUT where Hillary stands on the issues.
Bernie of course has no problem doing that.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)candidates will save a lot of "buyer's remorse".
Social Security is at, or near, the top of the Democratic Party's most wonderful accomplishments.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Claire McKaskill complains Bernie is a socialist and can't get elected because he's too liberal. Three things that make him a sociaist you ask! Hide the children.
1. He wants Medicare for all.
2. He wants to expand entitlements.
3. He hates trade (opposes TPP).
God I hate when a Democrat uses the word "entitlements."
Video at link. It's the whole interview. The above in the last half. Sorry. I'm on my phone.
stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)We must reject the New Democratic thinking or many of us (and our children/grandchildren) are going to be in a hell of a lot of trouble.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)The Social Security/Medicare safety net has always been sacrosanct until the rise of the Clinton Wing of the Democratic Party that touted the myth of success through centrism. Hearing any (so-called) Democrat utter the word "entitlements" makes my skin crawl.