2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumEconomic Justice alone does not address the problems of PoC.
The three contenders for the Democratic nomination get it, finally, that there is systematic racism and inequality in this country. It took a protest at NRN15 to wake up a couple of them, but they're all addressing the concerns of voters of color now. As with most other topics, all will express positions that address those important issues. Their positions will be far more similar than different.
But, some Democrats, including some candidates, still don't completely understand why focusing on economic justice is not enough. Here are some examples of why that is:
Minimum Wage - All of the Democratic candidates support an increase in this, although not all have fixed on $15 as the number. It's important, but does not address the fact that, unless you can get a job, it doesn't matter. As long as it's very difficult for many PoC to compete for jobs on an equal plane, the minimum wage isn't the most important thing. Equal access to employment and an end to selective hiring that excludes PoC is an even more important issue. This is also tied to educational issues described below.
Access to Affordable Banking & Credit - Lenders have screwed everyone over, and economic justice would get rid of predatory lending and outrageous interest rates and fees. All Democratic candidates agree on this. But that doesn't solve the problem of unequal access to banking and credit. PoC have a much higher incidence of having poor access to banking and credit than white people. Check-cashing stores and payday lenders are not the solution. That is a social justice issue.
High Cost of Education - This is a serious national problem, and all three candidates want to help lower the costs and the high penalty people pay for student loans. That's good, but it doesn't address the issue of access to higher education for PoC. It doesn't address the gap PoC face in getting educational equality in our elementary and secondary school system. There is a monstrous gap in the quality of that earlier education. Until that's solved, making higher education more affordable doesn't matter for a high percentage of students of color. They don't have equal access to higher education due to the crappy elementary and secondary educational opportunities available to them.
Systematic Racism - We have an incredibly serious problem with this, nationwide. From high arrest and conviction rates for PoC to selective and racist law enforcement procedures and a justice system that sends far too many PoC to prison for infractions that get white people no jail time at all, this affects the economic lives of PoC in many ways. The percentage of males of color who have arrest and conviction records is far higher than for white people. This impacts everything about life, and far too often actually takes the lives of People of Color at the hands of law enforcement. A person in jail or dead in the street has no economic future at all. It's a crucial issue that must be addressed by every Democratic candidate.
Social Justice Impacts Economic Justice in Every Way
If social justice issues limit access to the economic system, mere improvements in that economic system cannot provide relief to an important part of our society. Those improvements don't "trickle down" to people who lack equality in the society. Racism and discriminatory practices that affect People of Color simply don't allow them full access to our economic system. Without a serious focus on systematic and pervasive social inequality, PoC do not benefit from those changes as much as white people do. It's that simple. We must work toward change that focuses on social justice as well as economic justice. If we do not, People of Color do not benefit equally from changes that are made in economic areas. Equality is an economic issue. Unless we address that, we do not solve the problems.
All of our Democratic candidates need to adjust their focus and make it clear that economic changes without fundamental changes in equality and access to the economy are inadequate. Social Justice is as important as Economic Justice, and they are interdependent. Any candidate who does not recognize that will not have the support of voters of color. I guarantee it.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Economic equality, under the best circumstances, won't be realized for decades. That best case scenario won't even happen in that time period in my opinion. It glosses over actions states and the federal government can take to deal with social justice immediately.
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)Much could be done that would have a good effect more quickly that slow-moving economic changes. Thanks for bringing this up.
I'd start by bringing the full power of the Department of Justice, including the FBI, to bear on the growing problem of unequal law enforcement and judicial prejudice. They are violations of the civil rights of citizens, and so are within the purview of the federal government.
This is something that President Obama can do at any time. Directing the FBI to investigate all police killings of POC, individually and aggressively, would be a good start. Then filing civil rights cases quickly and prosecuting them aggressively would send a message to local law enforcement that such injustice will no longer be tolerated or allowed to go unpunished.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)DLC or left as could be. Really no chance at disagreement with any of them with respect to your op.
"Then filing civil rights cases quickly and prosecuting them aggressively would send a message to local law enforcement that such injustice will no longer be tolerated or allowed to go unpunished."
Just wanted to repeat that.
Federal body camera fund. Set up for all states and municipalities, yet each decides on their own. It is my understanding that would be fully constitutional. Once the fund is set up, let public demand take care of the rest.
Stopping weapons of war from going to police depts. Something Obama is working on.
Somehow, an independent group needs to be part of investigations.
Really throwing short thoughts out there.
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)where an administration can materially affect social justice in a meaningful way.
President Obama has done some of this, but more could be done. I know that I'd like to see more aggressive action from the Department of Justice with regard to police violence against PoC.
BKH70041
(961 posts)A message of social justice ahead of economics doesn't put more coin in people's pocket. And it is a numbers game as to "If we do X, do we gain more votes than lose or vice versa."
We'll see.
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)Sometimes, doing what's right is the key to getting votes. We should do what is right.
BKH70041
(961 posts)Any candidate who does not recognize that will not have the support of voters of color. I guarantee it.
Let's take the #BlackLivesMatter issue, for example. Should the candidates embrace that? Depends on what the numbers are saying. If by embracing you pick up 3 voters, but lose 5, then the numbers say you don't embrace it. If they say you pick up 5 and lose 3, then you do. That's politics.
No doubt a lot of time and money is being spent exploring that question right now. My guess is they'll find a way to pay lip service to it in a way that doesn't isolate other voters. A happy medium, if you will.
The key is winning the office. Once you're in office, how you got there loses meaning, especially in today's political climate of They're attacking our parties leader. Circle the wagons.
Besides, 2016 is the last national election where this issue will hold a glimer of significance. Hispanics are becoming the new minority, and securing the majority of their votes will allow the Party to overcome any deficits that might be lost among the AA's because of policies. And there's a myriad of difference in wants and desires between those two groups. It's a numbers game.
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)It shouldn't be a game at all. It should just what's right.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)People can't cash their paychecks without being killed by police.
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)So has confiscation of cash, whether there is any evidence of criminal activity. It's a serious problem.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)MineralMan
(146,346 posts)A single arrest can lock a person out of meaningful employment permanently. If that arrest is unjustified, as often occurs, the impact can last a lifetime and destroy a person's hope to become part of the economy. The question on most employment applications: "Have you ever been arrested?" is a terrible question for people to face. Arrests for things like "Disorderly Conduct" that never result in even a prosecution become part of your record and show up in records searches.
Think about an employer trying to decide between two people for a job. They both are equally qualified. One has an arrest on his or her record. That decision gets made on a daily basis many thousands of times. The result of that decision affects lives.
PoC are arrested for meaningless reasons far more often than white people. That's a fact.
BKH70041
(961 posts)Specifically how much money someone makes or if they even have a job. I'm not addressing economic inequality since the Democratic candidates are all going to give that issue various levels of lip service to placate a certain segment of the voters. The question then becomes to what degree does one address social justice. How many voters is that really a concern? And can losing the support of those voters be overcome by emphasizing other issues?
How many people can't cash their paychecks without a cop killing them? Now, if as a pol you address that issue, how many do you stand to gain as voters as opposed to how many might you lose?
So pols stand to gain or lose voters based upon how much emphasis they place on economic issues vs. social justice issues.
The issue of social justice will only be treated seriously in a political campaign if there's enough to be gained in contrast to how much would be lost. Numbers game.
So a message of how many people are being killed by police for cashing paychecks means nothing when you're your not in office to do anything about it. Not that anything will be done except for a few bandaids anyway, but without the right person in office they won't even get that.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)MineralMan
(146,346 posts)Maybe some folks are just too stupid or ignorant to make good judgments. I don't know.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)but temporarily inconvenienced wealthy. They'd be rich too, if it weren't for all the handouts to those people.
Racism is exacerbated by economics. So is sexism. And anti-LGBT-ism. That doesn't mean economics is the root cause or can completely remove those problems. Those problems are made worse by economics because hatred gives desperate people something to cling to.
Something along the lines of:
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)Which CANDIDATES still don't completely understand?
Got any links?
Or is this just your opinion?
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)Everything I write here that is not linked to someone else's writing is my opinion. That's why the line in my signature line is there.
Yes, this is just my opinion. You might disagree with my opinion. That's fine. Think of my posts as op-eds on a subject. They're based on my observations, which are based on a wide range of inputs.
I'll leave it to you to decide which candidates don't completely understand. See, I trust your ability to do that, based on your own observations. You have correctly noticed that I did not name any particular candidate. That's because they're all at fault to some degree with regard to these issues.
Yes, this is just my opinion. Just in case you can't see my signature line, here is the relevant information:
Note: All posts written by me are my opinion only. Your opinion might differ.
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)It seems disingenuous to state
that some candidates don't get it,
and then refuse to identify any such candidate????
Odd tactic?
Why are you reluctant to complete your
thoughts and identify said clueless candidates?
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)SRSLY, Jim Webb
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)MM, can speak for himself.
Thanks for playing
Since when is ALL of them
synonymous with
"SOME" candidates?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Some of you guys appear to be very delicate flowers.
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)In reality, more like a sun scorched
succulent on the floor of Death Valley.
BTW, thanks for the "Welcome"
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)Did you miss my boldfacing?
I'm not satisfied with any of them in this regard. Hence my OP.
Are you satisfied with a particular candidate on social justice issues as proposed by them in this campaign?
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)Which candidates do YOU have in mind?
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)see what they think. And with that, I won't be active in this subthread any further.
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)yet you won't identify which
Democratic candidates
don't get it?
Keep hammering that wedge!
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)not sure why you fee the need to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)Thankfully we have folks like MM
to remind us all that Economic justice
isn't the same as Social justice
and that some candidates
just don't get it!
How long will that meme be repeated?
Will it go go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on ???
Anywhoooo, Thanks for joining the "conversation"
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)mmonk
(52,589 posts)MineralMan
(146,346 posts)I think the focus is too much on economic issues from all candidates, frankly. I'd like to see more focus on social justice issues from all of them. I'm sure a lot of other people would like to see that, too.
mmonk
(52,589 posts)They are voicing it and politicians know they ignore it at their own peril.
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)this better and speaking on these issues. That's often what protests accomplish. It can be difficult to get issues on the agenda during campaigns. It's good to insist that they be addressed.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)MineralMan
(146,346 posts)No candidate would say that, but focus varies from candidate to candidate. Frankly, I'm not happy with the focus of any of the Democratic candidate with regard to this issue. That's why I mentioned no names.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Your OP is attacking the claim economic justice will fix everything. Something you now say no candidate has claimed.
So why did you make the OP?
What are they lacking?
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)It is my opinion about these issues. Your opinion might differ.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)... either you admit that Bernie is the most bestest candidate on these issues, and that he has never not had the right focus on the distinction you are describing ... or you are part of the Rove/DNC/3rd Way/Hillary hit squad who sent BLM to attack Bernie.
Kidding of course.
Very good OP.
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)I'm not satisfied with any of them on these issues, frankly.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)They all tend to focus on the economic inequality piece, and miss the social justice piece. And I think you are correct, its comes out in the extent to which they focus on one aspect or the other. Its ok to say they are higjly related, but if you then use that to pivot back to just the economic part, you are missing the mark.
Bernie has been so forceful on the economic part, that its easy to conclude he might not really get this distinction. And to be concerned about that.
But dare not say that out loud around here ... if you point it out ... you have smeared the only hope our nation has. And you will be scorned for sure.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)If no candidate is saying economic issues alone can fix racial issues, why the strawman in the title?
Zorra
(27,670 posts)and economic justice by a country mile.
Proven repeatedly by records and facts, and put side by side, Clinton is not a contender.
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)And decide they will, most certainly. We'll get the results of those decisions next year at some point.
Baitball Blogger
(46,776 posts)minorities, but I will say that it offers an offensive game. You will be hitting the areas where prejudices are allowed to run amok directly, if you include it as a strategy to racial equality.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)....feels an aweful lot like Ronnie Trickle Down economics.
It's been a several decades long failure. It's time to address problems directly instead of dancing around and fixing everything else hoping the real problem accidentally gets fixed along the way.
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)But social justice issues also need actions that will take effect promptly. Those issues often have a massive day to day impact on people, and in ways that can be a matter of life and death.
With some blocs of voters, what candidates say and support will make the difference in how they vote. And it should.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)You pretty much nailed it.
One more thing I would expand on is how the justice system in America is rigged against minorities.
One example is how blacks are punished more than whites for committing the same crimes.
This inequity causes issues for minorities down the road when looking for opportunities to move up the economic ladder. The disadvantage is already baked into the cake.
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)I touched on that, but thanks for expanding on the idea.
Starting with law enforcement and continuing into the rest of the justice system, there is heavy bias and racism in effect. We need to change that, starting from the top and working right down to local jurisdictions. That's crucial. A person with an arrest or conviction record is locked out of the mainstream economy forever.
That is a plague on social AND economic justice.
Gothmog
(145,821 posts)If you need any proof look at the steps being taken by the GOP to suppress the vote of minority voters
MineralMan
(146,346 posts)but systematic racism destroys lives and prevents people from having any chance of succeeding. It is institutional racism at all levels that cripples this country and makes progress impossible for more people than anyone can imagine.
It exists in government and in private industry at all levels. Economic changes will do nothing to eliminate it. It's going to take strong leadership that is focused on that, along with changes in the laws and serious investigation of incidents, with prosecutions where needed. Without a strong focus, nothing will happen to change anything.
That's why I wrote this OP. It seems obvious to me, and I want to hear candidates speak strongly about these issues.
Response to MineralMan (Original post)
untrue This message was self-deleted by its author.