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MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:03 PM Jul 2015

Not everyone thinks that Bernie Sanders is the best choice

as the Democratic nominee for President. In fact, not everyone who thinks Senator Sanders has the right point of view on issues thinks he is the best choice as the nominee. That may come as a surprise to some people, but it shouldn't. There are some political considerations that lead many Democrats to think Hillary Clinton would be a better nominee. Some of the reasons for that thinking, even among Democrats who strongly support Sanders' positions include:

1. Electability - For many Democrats, policy positions alone are not enough. Some remember outstanding Democratic candidates who lost in the general election in a landslide. Many of those Democrats look at Bernie Sanders and see another such candidate, and think electing a Democrat is more important than complete agreement with the nominee's positions.

2. Popularity Overall - Many Democrats pay close attention to polling. In deciding which primary candidate to support for the Democratic nomination, they look to see which candidate appears to have the largest number of supporters nationwide. They also look at comparisons of candidates with potential Republican opponents. Hillary Clinton's poll numbers are excellent with Democratic voters across the spectrum and across the nation.

3. Name Recognition - Many people look closely to see which candidate is best known by Democratic voters. While that may seem to be an artificial way to decide whom to support, it's a real factor. A large number of Democrats who vote actually pay little attention to politics and vote based on factors many of us do not consider important. How well-known a general election candidate is has much to do with electability. That may be a bad thing, but it is a real thing.

4. Support by minority voting blocs - Black voters, Hispanic voters, Asian voters and other groups have increased in numbers over the years. Today, in several states with large delegations of electoral college votes, minority groups actually outnumber white voters. How they vote, and whether they vote may well make an enormous difference in the outcome of the general election. Poll numbers in these groups is often an important factor in deciding who to support.

5. Appeal to a majority of voters - Even for very progressive Democrats, it's easy to recognize that the votes of centrist and independent Americans are crucial to winning in any presidential election. In fact, those voters make up the largest single group of voters in those elections. A nominee who doesn't appeal to that group has little chance of winning, historically. So, it's an issue to consider.

6. Turnout - Turnout is a very important factor in election outcomes. Which candidate will result in the largest turnout of Democratic voters is something that needs to be considered in every presidential election year. Again, history is the guide, not just opinions of the candidates' positions. Not every candidate I like can create a massive turnout of Democrats.

Does the importance of these factors suck? Yes, probably. But they exist and affect the outcome of every election. For many Democrats with long histories of election activism, decisions about whom to support must take all of them into consideration. For many Democratic activist, electing Democrats to office is really the highest priority. If we fail in that, we simply fail. As we've seen, it's very easy for an election to result in a Republican being elected. That's a bad thing, so I'm working to prevent that, if I can.

Who do I support? I support Senator Sanders in the primary race. I'll be caucusing for him in Minnesota on March 1. Do I think he will be the nominee? Not really, but the primaries are where I support candidates who best match my positions. If too few others vote as I do, someone else, probably Hillary Clinton, will be the nominee. She's a Democrat, too. I can heartily support her in the general election and will refrain from attacking her during the primaries. If she's the nominee, I'll be supporting her enthusiastically, as I do all Democratic general election candidates. Nothing I say now will come back to haunt me later. I'm a realist and don't burn my bridges during the primaries.

99 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Not everyone thinks that Bernie Sanders is the best choice (Original Post) MineralMan Jul 2015 OP
Isn't that kid of obvious? That's why we have primaries. djean111 Jul 2015 #1
Name Recognition? "Feel the Bern!" will become a household phrase (imho). nt jonno99 Jul 2015 #2
Perhaps, and perhaps not. MineralMan Jul 2015 #5
Poll #'s are not facts, they're estimates, guesses at best, aspirant Jul 2015 #32
Thanks for recommending that I educate myself. MineralMan Jul 2015 #34
50 years and you still think unverifiable polls are facts? aspirant Jul 2015 #45
Polls are very useful in predicting outcomes. MineralMan Jul 2015 #54
Post removed Post removed Jul 2015 #61
I see you have found my real life first name. MineralMan Jul 2015 #62
"easy to do? aspirant Jul 2015 #66
I do not provide my name in my signature line. MineralMan Jul 2015 #67
Jury results JustABozoOnThisBus Jul 2015 #75
Thanks for the heads-up. MineralMan Jul 2015 #79
FFS. Agschmid Jul 2015 #96
You get the award for creepiest post of the day. nt sufrommich Jul 2015 #64
That's pretty funny....creepy was a term previously used Sheepshank Jul 2015 #65
Damn, that was creepy. Bobbie Jo Jul 2015 #72
what the fuck was that ? JI7 Jul 2015 #94
He doesn't have to be anyone's best choice. Autumn Jul 2015 #3
Yes. So will I in my state's caucuses. MineralMan Jul 2015 #7
That's why we support Martin O'Malley. elleng Jul 2015 #4
I would like to get back to stances on issues being at least "A" factor in who's the "best choice".. cascadiance Jul 2015 #6
It's not missing. I mentioned that many times in my OP. MineralMan Jul 2015 #10
I think that in today's corrupt system, you are right that they haven't been the primary thing... cascadiance Jul 2015 #12
I think they matter very much. However, I also think MineralMan Jul 2015 #18
Not overrated, but the system intentionally "devalues" them when they want money to determine... cascadiance Jul 2015 #20
I think that policies play a role, but on a very broad level... brooklynite Jul 2015 #99
Policy Eatacig Jul 2015 #8
And that's fine whatchamacallit Jul 2015 #9
Not everyone likes to stand up. zappaman Jul 2015 #74
Haha yep n/t whatchamacallit Jul 2015 #76
We have lots of experience with unhappy people who vote against their own interests, Zorra Jul 2015 #11
Yes. One of the most difficult realities of living in a MineralMan Jul 2015 #15
Hillary is in the interest for progressives not Bernie: GO Hillary lewebley3 Jul 2015 #28
"Electability" is dependent on people voting for that option Scootaloo Jul 2015 #13
Actually, electability is a useful measure, I think. MineralMan Jul 2015 #17
It's not. Scootaloo Jul 2015 #22
The best way to measure general election electability.... Cali_Democrat Jul 2015 #63
Remember how electable John Kerry was touted to be? frylock Jul 2015 #97
Maybe you need to rethink "Electability", latest quinnipiac poll has Bernie up & Hillary down peacebird Jul 2015 #14
I look at a very wide range of poll results. MineralMan Jul 2015 #16
The ability to adequatedly fund a campaign is very important to many of us Gothmog Jul 2015 #19
Yes. I deliberately left that one out, because it is such a hot-button issue. MineralMan Jul 2015 #23
To me, fundraising is related to electablity Gothmog Jul 2015 #25
I have no idea what Senator Sanders is thinking, MineralMan Jul 2015 #30
Texas is also on Super Tuesday Gothmog Jul 2015 #59
I've never been tempted to vote in a GOP primary. MineralMan Jul 2015 #60
D'oh! Some may not be happy with any of the 3 TexasProgresive Jul 2015 #21
One of the things I didn't include is "Coattails." MineralMan Jul 2015 #24
Hillary is the best choice for progessives, She has everything it takes lewebley3 Jul 2015 #26
How many times do we need to see the same thing posted day after day? tymorial Jul 2015 #27
Well, I don't know. I don't know of an identical post to mine, though. MineralMan Jul 2015 #31
Variations on a theme tymorial Jul 2015 #36
Perhaps, and it's the same with posts like yours, MineralMan Jul 2015 #37
Attempts at one-upmanship is not discussion. Its antagonistic. tymorial Jul 2015 #98
The beatings will continue until we follow our orders. (nt) jeff47 Jul 2015 #52
I'm not sure he's ready for the big stage Renew Deal Jul 2015 #29
I can't speak to that, really. MineralMan Jul 2015 #33
Mineral Man. 99Forever Jul 2015 #35
My invitation for DUers to attend the precinct caucus for MineralMan Jul 2015 #39
You're last thread, Bernie screwed up aspirant Jul 2015 #38
When she screws up, I'll post something about it, I'm sure. MineralMan Jul 2015 #40
So she's been perfect her whole political existence? aspirant Jul 2015 #49
Nobody's perfect, Grasshopper. MineralMan Jul 2015 #58
You forgot #7. Issues FSogol Jul 2015 #41
Issues are pervasive throughout the primaries. MineralMan Jul 2015 #47
I'm glad my state (VA) switched from Caucuses to primary elections. FSogol Jul 2015 #51
Yeah, maybe. However, the truly tiny turnout for most caucuses MineralMan Jul 2015 #56
That's what I thought when I caucused for Gary Hart. FSogol Jul 2015 #57
Elections can be heart breakers, for sure. MineralMan Jul 2015 #69
"Not everyone thinks that Bernie Sanders is the best choice" NCTraveler Jul 2015 #42
He'll still get all six of my votes in the primary. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #43
LOL! MineralMan Jul 2015 #44
Ever heard about the difference between a chicken and a pig in the context of breakfast? cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #46
Yup! MineralMan Jul 2015 #48
All six factors are variations of electability. So this could be stated much more concisely. Vattel Jul 2015 #50
Yeah, I have noticed that, too. It is, actually, getting amusing. And kinda obvious. djean111 Jul 2015 #53
On point #6. How do you think a Clinton v. Bush match would fare? LiberalAndProud Jul 2015 #55
That's a good question. At this point, I can't say, really. MineralMan Jul 2015 #68
Interesting that our opinions are so diverse on this. LiberalAndProud Jul 2015 #70
It's all very interesting. As you say, we'll see what happens. MineralMan Jul 2015 #71
Candidates are like pizza. Snotcicles Jul 2015 #73
Seriously? Who doesn't like pizza? MoonRiver Jul 2015 #77
I know right. But they are out there. nt Snotcicles Jul 2015 #82
The pizza haters! MoonRiver Jul 2015 #90
A rare phenomenon. nt Snotcicles Jul 2015 #92
Well, duh matt819 Jul 2015 #78
+1,000,000,000. djean111 Jul 2015 #80
And his supporters follow me around and alert nd alert and alert and alert!!! bravenak Jul 2015 #81
....... steve2470 Jul 2015 #83
Thank you. bravenak Jul 2015 #84
If that's true, it's really sad to hear. MineralMan Jul 2015 #85
I'm sorry too. It hurt to know that people I like turn on me like I'm a bad dog. bravenak Jul 2015 #86
There are some serious underlying issues that MineralMan Jul 2015 #87
Thank you. bravenak Jul 2015 #89
it's too bad because Sanders himself is nothing like that JI7 Jul 2015 #95
my bottom line is, who is going to keep the Republican from sitting in the White House ? steve2470 Jul 2015 #88
A lot of people are worried about that, for sure. MineralMan Jul 2015 #91
Of course people have different opinions. What fools thinks otherwise? n/t arcane1 Jul 2015 #93

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
5. Perhaps, and perhaps not.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:16 PM
Jul 2015

He's well-known in progressive circles, certainly. Expanding that name recognition, however, in enough states to get him the nomination will be a very difficult job. Looked at realistically, unless he increases his polling numbers nationally in a significant way, he's not going to get the media coverage required to build enough name recognition to win many primary elections.

Most people don't follow election coverage and candidates all that much, especially in the lead-up to the primaries. If they do, they are seeing modest news coverage of primary issues. They're not on sites like DU in enough numbers to make much of a difference. Recent numbers show that over 70% of Americans get most of their news from local and national news coverage on the three major network channels, CBS, NBC and ABC. Viewership of any one of those news outlets overwhelms the numbers of viewers of all cable news channels combined. Those are the facts.

Name recognition is huge in elections. It affects an amazingly large percentage of voters. That may be disappointing, but it's true.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
34. Thanks for recommending that I educate myself.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:11 PM
Jul 2015

I guess more than half a century of being politically active hasn't given me enough knowledge to understand how polling works. I'll do my very best to correct my ignorance, you can be sure. Yes, indeed, I will.

aspirant

(3,533 posts)
45. 50 years and you still think unverifiable polls are facts?
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:34 PM
Jul 2015

Your words:

"Recent numbers show that over 70% of Americans get most of their news from local and national news coverage on the three major network channels, CBS, NBC and ABC. Viewership of any one of those news outlets overwhelms the numbers of viewers of all cable news channels combined. Those are the FACTS."

...and remember an awakening can happen at any moment.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
54. Polls are very useful in predicting outcomes.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:45 PM
Jul 2015

Some are better than others, and polling also depends on when the poll is taken in relation to the date of an election. However, they're very good at showing trends. Very good, indeed.

So, what are you aspiring to be, aspirant? I've wondered about that. It's a thought-provoking screen name.

I remember when Ford named one of its models "Aspire." It was an entry level car. It apparently "aspired" to be a real, grown-up car. Apparently it didn't succeed, since Ford dropped the name. Aspirations are good, but don't always result in reaching the goal.

As for awakening, I've been awake for almost 70 years. It's a shame to go through life asleep.

Response to MineralMan (Reply #54)

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
62. I see you have found my real life first name.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:11 PM
Jul 2015

That was easy to do, huh? Here's a hint for you, though: It's really bad form to use real names in posts on DU. What is really revealed is not the name of a poster, but the fact that you thought somehow that it was a good idea to post a real name in a public post.

It's not a good idea at all. In fact it's against the most fundamental rules of DU. You can see the Terms of Service of DU by clicking a link at the bottom of any page on this website.

Please do not do that again.

aspirant

(3,533 posts)
66. "easy to do?
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:22 PM
Jul 2015

you provide it in your Sig Line

What is also bad form is trying to hustle business by promoting your website with your name and telephone # in plain view.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
67. I do not provide my name in my signature line.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:25 PM
Jul 2015

Go read the DU TOS, as I suggested.

DU allows people to link to things in their signature lines. If you wish, you can alert on that.

Thank you for editing your post. Again, please do not repeat that mistake again. It's a serious violation of DU's TOS.

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,377 posts)
75. Jury results
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:13 PM
Jul 2015

On Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:03 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I see you have found my real life first name.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=468777

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

ToS: No spammers, do not spam DU with commercial advertising or promotions. This poster advertises his website in his sig line including his full name, phone # and Email along with "ADVERTISING" writing services" and "I can offer your business compelling SEO-rich web content, custom blogging and social media services" + work samples. So is this what DU is, everyone advertising their business thru sig lines. He states "that was easy to do" DUH when you publicly ADVERTISE on a DU post its in the public domain and must be considered "commercial advertising.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:10 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This alert is more of a rant than anything substantive. There's no attack, no insult.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
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Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: silly alert LEAVE
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not hide-worthy.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see nothing alert-worthy about this post at all.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
65. That's pretty funny....creepy was a term previously used
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:21 PM
Jul 2015

when this poster stalked another DU'er.

Ok, I used it back then, but find it interesting others get the same vibe from these inappropriate posts.

Autumn

(45,120 posts)
3. He doesn't have to be anyone's best choice.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:12 PM
Jul 2015

He's my best choice and that's the man I'm going to vote for.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
7. Yes. So will I in my state's caucuses.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:17 PM
Jul 2015

In the general election, I'll be voting for and supporting the Democratic nominee. I've been doing that since 1960, and will continue in 2016.

We'll see what happens.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
6. I would like to get back to stances on issues being at least "A" factor in who's the "best choice"..
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:16 PM
Jul 2015

which is notably missing from your list.

Ultimately we the people should be picking the best person to do the things we want them to do to fix a broken and corrupt system, not just the person that "can get elected" in a broken and corrupt system.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
10. It's not missing. I mentioned that many times in my OP.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:20 PM
Jul 2015

It is, however, not the only factor, and maybe not even the most important factor in who wins. We've certainly seen that play out enough times. Otherwise how did Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan win? Or George W. Bush, for that matter.

Issues matter, of course, but I don't think they're the primary thing that influences presidential elections. I've seen no evidence of that, really.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
12. I think that in today's corrupt system, you are right that they haven't been the primary thing...
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:26 PM
Jul 2015

... that has affected our elections, when we don't have the mass movements in full swing yet, like they are starting to now, and also helped put in power someone like FDR in his day.

I think though we recognize how the system looks at these other factors more than issues, we should ultimately still say that how candidates stand on issues I think is what a majority of Americans WANT the system to use as the primary decisive factor, and I think it will be more of a factor as movements like Bernie's and others such as BLM and Occupy from a few years ago rise up again to say that issues NEED to matter in our elections.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
18. I think they matter very much. However, I also think
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:35 PM
Jul 2015

that issues are overrated as a factor in who wins general elections, frankly. I also think that it's a very long pull to convince people that there are significant differences between the current Democratic primary nominees. I think only policy wonks even see the differences. Truly.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
20. Not overrated, but the system intentionally "devalues" them when they want money to determine...
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:42 PM
Jul 2015

... who wins rather than people voting who works best for them (that usually is determined by how they understand who they are voting for stands and votes on various issues affecting them).

Yes, the system of our elections and money has made it less of a factor *by design* by those that want who gets elected to be working for them and not us. And our system of education, media, etc. has made it that much harder for newer generations growing up in this environment to see the importance of how our corrupt governance has affected us all, and to have examples more vivid to them from the past when government worked more for them then.

brooklynite

(94,929 posts)
99. I think that policies play a role, but on a very broad level...
Thu Jul 23, 2015, 12:42 PM
Jul 2015

...say, More Govt spending and social programs vs lower taxes abd reduced regulations. Policiy specifics tend to go over the average voters' heads.

 

Eatacig

(97 posts)
8. Policy
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:18 PM
Jul 2015

I like Bernie Sanders but please, lets be honest. Bernie doesn't have policy positions,
he has a wish list. Never once have I heard how he is going to put that chicken in
every pot.

zappaman

(20,606 posts)
74. Not everyone likes to stand up.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:11 PM
Jul 2015

Some prefer sitting down.
Standing up can be good though.
I suppose it's just a personal thing with many.
Standing or sitting is a choice we have to make for ourselves I suppose...

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
11. We have lots of experience with unhappy people who vote against their own interests,
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:24 PM
Jul 2015

and then can't figure out why their lives suck, and everything just keeps getting worse.

There are a some things in this world we can't fix.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
15. Yes. One of the most difficult realities of living in a
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:29 PM
Jul 2015

democratic republic is that voters often vote in ways that seem really uninformed and misguided. I don't see that changing any time soon, either. So, I tend to look at elections, particularly presidential elections, based on the realities of electoral politics. It can be very frustrating most of the time.

However, that's the system that is in place, and changes to that system seem extraordinarily unlikely. In general, we do better when Democrats control the Executive and Legislative branches of government. So, I'm a Democrat and promote that outcome, even when I'm not totally enamored of the choices.

Shit gets real every couple of years. It does.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
13. "Electability" is dependent on people voting for that option
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:28 PM
Jul 2015

"I won't vote for them because they're not electable" is circular and self-defeating.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
17. Actually, electability is a useful measure, I think.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:32 PM
Jul 2015

But it's just one. All the rest of the measures, though, contribute to electability.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
22. It's not.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:42 PM
Jul 2015

There's no actual standard for "electability," no measure, except for people voting. It's a term used purely to bias the discussion.

MY candidate is electable.
YOUR candidate is unelectable.

And there's no way to convince the other person of your position, because that's all it is. MY candidate is awesome, YOUR candidate is a droolbucket.

And then you take this style of argument, and you put it in the mouth of a media conglomerate and all of its affiliates, to drone it constantly for months on end. I wonder what happens!

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
63. The best way to measure general election electability....
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:13 PM
Jul 2015

is to look at head-to-head polls between a potential Democratic nominee against potential Republicans.

If supporters can prove their candidate would perform better in a general election match up via scientific polls, then they have a case.

peacebird

(14,195 posts)
14. Maybe you need to rethink "Electability", latest quinnipiac poll has Bernie up & Hillary down
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:29 PM
Jul 2015

With them both losing to the top three R's in Virginia, Ohio , and I think NJ....

So Benie is at 36% there which is way up for him, and Hillary is down to 36%... Trajectory has it going Bernie's way! Maybe you get to vote in the primary for who you want, and actually get to vote for him in the general election as well!

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
16. I look at a very wide range of poll results.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:31 PM
Jul 2015

They're not saying what you're saying they're saying, frankly. Right now, Sanders has stalled. Now, that's based on polls from late June. But in major national polls, he's not moving up in his numbers right now. Those are more recent.

Gothmog

(145,820 posts)
19. The ability to adequatedly fund a campaign is very important to many of us
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:42 PM
Jul 2015

Some candidates are better able to raise the funds necessary to complete. President Obama blew everyone away in 2008 with his small donor fundraising efforts and that made it clear that he was electable. Jeb is trying to do the same on the GOP side with his $100 million super pac.

There are many on this board who doubt that Sanders will be able to compete in a general election contest where the Kochs will be spending $887 million and the RNC candidate will likely spend another billion. This article had a very interesting quote about the role of super pacs in the upcoming election http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/03/bernie-sanders-grassroots-movement-gains-clinton-machine

Harvard University professor Lawrence Lessig, who founded a Super Pac to end Super Pacs, said Sanders’ renouncing Super Pacs is tantamount to “bringing a knife to a gunfight”.

“I regret the fact the Bernie Sanders has embraced the idea that he’s going to live life like the Vermont snow, as pure as he possibly can, while he runs for president, because it weakens his chances – and he’s an enormously important progressive voice,” Lessig said.

President Obama was against super pacs in 2012 but had to use one to keep the race close. I do not like super pacs but any Democratic candidate who wants to be viable has to use a super pac, The super pacs associated with Clinton raised $24 million and so Clinton raised $70 this quarter.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
23. Yes. I deliberately left that one out, because it is such a hot-button issue.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:47 PM
Jul 2015

You're right, though. Fundraising ability is a huge factor, since those funds are spent in convincing people to vote for a particular individual and funding also affects all of the other factors I did mention.

We can't get rid of Citizens United until Democrats are in control of all three branches of government, either. We need to get rid of it, but that is going to depend on electing Democrats. The Republicans will never change it.

The system is what the system is. I'd make many changes in it. I know of no way to do that, though, other than helping Democrats get control of all three branches. That's not going to happen quickly, either, even if we stretch our imaginations to the limit.

Reality bites!

Gothmog

(145,820 posts)
25. To me, fundraising is related to electablity
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:54 PM
Jul 2015

Modern campaigns are major operations that are very expensive. You have to be raise significant amount of funds to get the message out and to man GOTV operations in key states.

There was another thread that bragged about Sanders not doing any polling. The fact that Sanders is not polling or building a campaign organization worries me as to his electablity. Polling is part of a modern campaign. I worry that Sanders is not really trying to win but is mainly getting his message out.

As noted, this is the primary process and the factors you listed are important

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
30. I have no idea what Senator Sanders is thinking,
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:01 PM
Jul 2015

to tell you the truth. He may well be pretty sure he will not be the nominee and is in the race to push the debate leftward. If that's the case, good for him. If he believes he can win the nomination, good for him, too.

Some time back, I predicted that he'd withdraw after Super Tuesday. I still think that's pretty likely, based on current polling in the early primary states and nationally. As it happens, the Minnesota caucus votes are on Super Tuesday, March 1. I'll be caucusing for him, and will also caucus for him at the later conventions where I am a delegate, if he hasn't withdrawn. However, I don't think Minnesota will choose him as the nominee, and expect our delegation to the national convention to be dominated by Clinton delegates. I know the local politics and who attends the caucuses and conventions. They're pretty much mainstream Democrats as a majority. Unless there's a huge increase in caucus attendance, I don't see that changing, truthfully. I'll do what I can, but I doubt that will change the outcome.

Gothmog

(145,820 posts)
59. Texas is also on Super Tuesday
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:54 PM
Jul 2015

I am a precinct chair and so I have to vote in the Democratic primary. In addition, I am thinking about applying and trying to be a delegate to the 2016 Democratic National Convention. Otherwise, it could be fun to see if we could mess up the GOP primary fight.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
60. I've never been tempted to vote in a GOP primary.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:55 PM
Jul 2015

I don't think that works. I'm comfortable with letting them screw things up all on their own.

TexasProgresive

(12,164 posts)
21. D'oh! Some may not be happy with any of the 3
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:42 PM
Jul 2015
Who knows, probably some Gore, Kerry, Dean, (fill in the blank) fans out there. I like Mr. Sanders but I think if either he or Ms. Clinton are elected we will have a repeat of the McConnell's strategy to make it a "failed presidency. I would prefer to have someone in the office that not only is in our party but would not act as a personal lightening rod for the ire of the (re)Pukes.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
24. One of the things I didn't include is "Coattails."
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:50 PM
Jul 2015

I though about it, but skipped it. Just electing a Democrat as President doesn't get it. We must regain control of Congress, too, and that's an even tougher nut. A popular Presidential candidate can help with that, by pulling more voters to the election. That increases the number of Democrats being elected.

GOTV is my main thrust of activism. It's also a very frustrating thing.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
27. How many times do we need to see the same thing posted day after day?
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:58 PM
Jul 2015

These posts are just too funny. I swear, the same posts are posted day after day after day with just different wording and language.

They all amount to the same friggin thing:

1. Bernie Sanders can't win.
2. Hillary Clinton isn't progressive enough.
3. Bernie Sanders supports gun.
4. Hillary Clinton is in Wallstreet's pocket.
5. Bernie Sanders doesn't have minority support.


It is always one of these or all of these

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
31. Well, I don't know. I don't know of an identical post to mine, though.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:04 PM
Jul 2015

You can control what you see on Democratic Underground. You can also simply not click on threads you deem to be "more of the same." But, DUers will post whatever they want to post here.

So, I can't answer your question, I'm afraid. I imagine you'll see more posts on similar topics. We're discussing the Democratic Primaries in this particular forum, so that seems very likely to me.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
36. Variations on a theme
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:15 PM
Jul 2015

hence:
I swear, the same posts are posted day after day after day with just different wording and language.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
37. Perhaps, and it's the same with posts like yours,
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:21 PM
Jul 2015

complaining about similar posts. Those are posted daily as well. It's a discussion forum.

Have fun discussing.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
98. Attempts at one-upmanship is not discussion. Its antagonistic.
Thu Jul 23, 2015, 12:17 PM
Jul 2015

My post (and those like it) are a reaction to the non-stop petty bickering between Clinton and Sanders supporters who are constantly trying to one-up the other. The threads are constant and unending. it pretty much boils down to this:

My candidate is great. Yours sucks. Rinse repeat.

Renew Deal

(81,895 posts)
29. I'm not sure he's ready for the big stage
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:59 PM
Jul 2015

He looked flustered at NN. Big diverse presidential crowds are much different than the small crowds in VT. I'm not sure he is able to deal with the pressure.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
33. I can't speak to that, really.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:07 PM
Jul 2015

It's a big country, though. You're right. He has undertaken an enormous journey. Bravo to him for that. I can't even imagine how much stress a presidential campaign entails, but it's something not many people are capable of. I hope he can maintain the pace and adapt to a changing situation.

He's a tough guy, though. That's for sure. I hope he's not overestimating his endurance.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
39. My invitation for DUers to attend the precinct caucus for
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:26 PM
Jul 2015

my precinct in St. Paul remains open. It's on March 1, and they generally begin at 6 PM. You'll have to attend as an observer, of course, but you'll get to see me make my pitch for Bernie Sanders. If you'd like to attend, I'll make sure you get plenty of advance notice about the exact location and time.

Or, you can just click the precinct website link in my signature line. As soon as I have the details, I'll be posting them on that website, which I've been maintaining for almost 10 years, now.

I hope to see you there.

aspirant

(3,533 posts)
38. You're last thread, Bernie screwed up
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:26 PM
Jul 2015

and now "will refrain from attacking her during the primaries"

So if Bernie screwed up is not an attack, when can we expect Hillary screwed up threads

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
58. Nobody's perfect, Grasshopper.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:52 PM
Jul 2015

This forum is about the upcoming Democratic Primaries. As a candidate, she hasn't really screwed up much in her campaign. She has demonstrated her experience as a candidate and appears to have learned a lot since 2008.

Her aspirations for the nomination remain intact, I think. If she screws up in her campaign, I'll post about it. And by screwing up, I mean something more than simply saying something I disagree with. Her campaign seems to be on track.

FSogol

(45,580 posts)
41. You forgot #7. Issues
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:29 PM
Jul 2015

While Sanders is an excellent candidate on a whole host of issues, he is not the best candidate on every single issue. Some of our candidates are better on specific issues and have more workable plans for dealing with those issues.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
47. Issues are pervasive throughout the primaries.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:39 PM
Jul 2015

However, I think that the majority of primary voters see all of the Democratic candidates as having similar positions on issues. If you look at their campaign pages, it's hard to find a lot of difference in their positions on the major issues of the day. That's why I didn't include it. I think primary votes are mainly based on other things for the majority of voters who actually show up at the polling place or caucuses.

I wish the turnout was much higher than it actually is. If we get a dozen people at my precinct caucus who stick around long enough for delegate selection, I'll be amazed. As long as I've been involved here, we've never filled our delegate list for the state senate district convention. Our precinct typically has 14 delegate positions. We typically fill about six of them. It's frustrating.

I could give you a list of the six people who will show up. I know each of them personally. Of the six, two will be Bernie Sanders supporters, including me. The other four will be Clinton supporters. We may pick up a couple more delegates, since it's a presidential election year, but that's about it. Even in 2008, there were only a dozen people left for delegate selection and half of them declined to apply to be a delegate. Go figure.

FSogol

(45,580 posts)
51. I'm glad my state (VA) switched from Caucuses to primary elections.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:42 PM
Jul 2015

The caucus seemed set up to let the establishment candidate win.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
56. Yeah, maybe. However, the truly tiny turnout for most caucuses
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:49 PM
Jul 2015

is a real opportunity for emergent campaigns. If they can get a crowd at the caucus meetings, they can easily overcome the establishment leaning. In 2008, for example, attendance during the straw poll portion of our caucus meeting was truly extraordinary, and Obama won going way in my precinct, and statewide. Sadly, almost everyone just came and voted, then left before delegate selection. We tried to get some people to stay but, in the end, it was the same group that always stays.

We'll see what happens on March 1, 2015. I'll report back the next morning here.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
42. "Not everyone thinks that Bernie Sanders is the best choice"
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:31 PM
Jul 2015

Kind of surprised such a simple statement would need such elaboration. But it seem to here.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
46. Ever heard about the difference between a chicken and a pig in the context of breakfast?
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:38 PM
Jul 2015

The chicken contributes but the pig, the pig commits.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
50. All six factors are variations of electability. So this could be stated much more concisely.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:41 PM
Jul 2015

It is interesting how all of your recent posts actually give reasons not to vote for Sanders. At least this one doesn't contain false claims about Sanders. You are improving in your heartfelt "support" of Sanders.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
53. Yeah, I have noticed that, too. It is, actually, getting amusing. And kinda obvious.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:45 PM
Jul 2015

On the bright side, doubt there is any influence.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
55. On point #6. How do you think a Clinton v. Bush match would fare?
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:46 PM
Jul 2015

I'm thinking people would stay home in droves, because who cares which dynasty gets the next turn?

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
68. That's a good question. At this point, I can't say, really.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:30 PM
Jul 2015

She's leading him in national polls right now. I think it would actually be a high turnout election, though. Both candidates are very, very well-known and people have strong opinions about them.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
70. Interesting that our opinions are so diverse on this.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:33 PM
Jul 2015

At this point the odds are stacked that we will see that matchup, I think. Given that, we may get to see which of us is correct re turnout. I think Bernie is the more polarizing and would inspire the greater turnout on both sides. I guess we may live to find out.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
71. It's all very interesting. As you say, we'll see what happens.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 02:37 PM
Jul 2015

I recognize how little my opinion means at that level of politics.

matt819

(10,749 posts)
78. Well, duh
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:17 PM
Jul 2015

Yes, we know that.

And not everyone thinks that Hillary is the best choice.

And not everyone thinks that Martin is the best choice (we're all on a first name basis here).

And not everyone thinks Joe is the best choice.

(And anyone who doesn't support my candidate is a big fat dummy.)

This is why we have campaigns. And elections.

At least we have adults running on the D side, rather than rejected applicants to clown school in Sarasota.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
81. And his supporters follow me around and alert nd alert and alert and alert!!!
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:25 PM
Jul 2015

I will never fill in a bubble when his fans think it's okay to harass black folks like this. It's not only me. Every black person on this board. They need a good look in the mirror. I feel racism comin at us on all sides. Trying to shut down and run off the last few black folks here in stupid as hell.

Sanders fans need to tell their friends that alerting on all of our posts, wins them disgust for their candidate.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
85. If that's true, it's really sad to hear.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:29 PM
Jul 2015

I have no idea if people are alerting on my posts. Occasionally I see jury results from a failed alert, but not often. I'm sorry to hear that, bravenak.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
87. There are some serious underlying issues that
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:36 PM
Jul 2015

only occasionally are exposed. When they are, a lot of people are surprised. What is sometimes revealed is not attractive, to say the least. You have lots of support here, too.

JI7

(89,285 posts)
95. it's too bad because Sanders himself is nothing like that
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 04:11 PM
Jul 2015

and he deserves better. your advice to him was helpful and instead they dismiss it as accusing him of being racist and just bringing up the issue at all.

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
88. my bottom line is, who is going to keep the Republican from sitting in the White House ?
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:39 PM
Jul 2015
The worst Democrat is better than the best Republican, just saying.

At this moment, I'm going to vote for Senator Sanders in the Florida primary, and I hope he can win. I have my doubts. He has a big hill to climb, and the nastiness from the other side has only started (the smear about him being a Nazi, gimmeafugginbreak). The communist smear is coming any day now, or maybe it's already started.

To be clear, I'll take Governor O'Malley also. Secretary Clinton works for me, as well. As I said, the worst Democrat is better than the best Republican. I'll take Secretary Clinton over, oh, Senator Lisa Murkowski from AK. Yes, I know Sen. Murkowski is not running but you get my point.

MineralMan

(146,346 posts)
91. A lot of people are worried about that, for sure.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:44 PM
Jul 2015

In fact, it's the biggest issue of all for many people.

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