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hue

(4,949 posts)
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 02:37 PM Aug 2014

Exactly How Often Do Police Shoot Unarmed Black Men?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-michael-brown-ferguson-black-men

The killing in Ferguson was one of many such cases. Here's what the data reveals.

The killing of Michael Brown by police in Ferguson, Missouri, was no anomaly: As we reported yesterday, Brown is one of at least four unarmed black men who died at the hands of police in the last month alone. There are many more cases from years past. As Jeffrey Mittman, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Missouri chapter put it in a statement of condolence to Brown's family, "Unarmed African-American men are shot and killed by police at an alarming rate. This pattern must stop."

But quantifying that pattern is difficult. Federal databases that track police use of force or arrest-related deaths paint only a partial picture. Police department data is scattered and fragmented. No agency appears to track the number of police shootings or killings of unarmed victims in a systematic, comprehensive way.

Here's some of what we do know:

Previous attempts to analyze racial bias in police shootings have arrived at similar conclusions. In 2007, ColorLines and the Chicago Reporter investigated fatal police shootings in 10 major cities, and found that there were a disproportionately high number of African Americans among police shooting victims in every one, particularly in New York, San Diego, and Las Vegas.

More MoJo coverage of the Michael Brown police shooting

Ferguson Is 60 Percent Black. Virtually All Its Cops Are White.
"Hands Up, Don't Shoot:" Peaceful Protests Across the Country Last Night
4 Unarmed Black Men Have Been Killed By Police in the Last Month
A Few Horrifying Pictures From Ferguson Last Night
Anonymous Posts St. Louis Police Dispatch Tapes From Day of Ferguson Shooting
Incredibly Powerful Photo of Black Students at Howard University
The Ferguson Shooting and the Science of Race and Guns


"We need not look for individual racists to say that we have a culture of policing that is really rubbing salt into longstanding racial wounds," NAACP president Cornell Williams Brooks told Mother Jones. It's a culture in which people suspected of minor crimes are met with "overwhelmingly major, often lethal, use of force," he says.
93 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Exactly How Often Do Police Shoot Unarmed Black Men? (Original Post) hue Aug 2014 OP
How Often? Who can count that high? Little Star Aug 2014 #1
We had the rarest thing ever in Oklahoma. A cop shot an unarmed black man in the back CBGLuthier Aug 2014 #2
Each case has to be individually reviewed based on the facts agbdf Aug 2014 #3
So you showed up here just to post this sort of nonsense? Warren Stupidity Aug 2014 #4
I see you have already tried the officer and found him guilty before the facts are in. agbdf Aug 2014 #8
There are plenty of eyewitnesses.. BronxBoy Aug 2014 #11
And YOU'VE tried him, exonerated and hail him as a white hero ... 66 dmhlt Aug 2014 #23
Eh, lots are declaring Brown guilty before the facts are in. Gormy Cuss Aug 2014 #32
Drugs will likely show up in tox report agbdf Aug 2014 #37
Do you have any basis for stating that other than SWAG? Gormy Cuss Aug 2014 #42
Experience agbdf Aug 2014 #43
Yes, I was right! MJ in the system. agbdf Aug 2014 #44
mj Kalidurga Aug 2014 #47
Marijuana? Gormy Cuss Aug 2014 #49
Marijuana stays in the system a long time after using it GitRDun Aug 2014 #51
So he was too mellow to charge? Gore1FL Aug 2014 #89
Maybe ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #76
You know what though? It's been going the other way as well. cleduc Aug 2014 #52
I was replying to someone who appeared to be siding ONLY with the LEO, giving him the benefit of Gormy Cuss Aug 2014 #54
The echo chamber has been saying, "Wait until all the facts come in"... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2014 #59
Well, Jerry, chervilant Aug 2014 #9
Wow. "If Brown attacked the officer and tried to take that officer's pistol away from him, as is rhett o rick Aug 2014 #17
35 feet not yards agbdf Aug 2014 #39
So let's see if I understand your position. The young man was walking away from the officer then rhett o rick Aug 2014 #40
Those facts will come in after a complete investigation agbdf Aug 2014 #41
Where do you get that bit of wisdom? eom. 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #80
Let me try to clarify this 35 feet thing cleduc Aug 2014 #53
Let's see if I have that theory right. Michael Brown apparently got away from the officer. rhett o rick Aug 2014 #55
"I think that's wishful thinking of the racists among us." cleduc Aug 2014 #56
Yes I might have been. But then help me out. Why would anyone stretch the story to rhett o rick Aug 2014 #57
I have stated many times that this thing with the cop smells real bad cleduc Aug 2014 #58
A police officer shot an unarmed teenager 5 or 6 times, making sure he was dead. rhett o rick Aug 2014 #79
Probably not an overweight alleged smoker in flipflops who was apparently already shot once. Gore1FL Aug 2014 #74
LOL ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #78
there are three feet in a yard jberryhill Aug 2014 #81
Simply ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2014 #86
Footwear seems to be a significant limiting factor here jberryhill Aug 2014 #87
Just stop malokvale77 Aug 2014 #19
I see you have already exonerated him. hue Aug 2014 #22
How do you know it was Brown in the store video? A Simple Game Aug 2014 #25
Yes but bl968 Aug 2014 #5
Really? agbdf Aug 2014 #6
Wow.... BronxBoy Aug 2014 #12
No question his hood and sheet are... nt HooptieWagon Aug 2014 #18
Criminal???? BronxBoy Aug 2014 #13
Have you noticed chervilant Aug 2014 #14
Yep.... BronxBoy Aug 2014 #15
Something else I'm noticing: chervilant Aug 2014 #16
I found another one JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #28
Seems like more are coming out of the woodwork, chervilant Aug 2014 #30
Don't update your IL, exercise your alert button. Gormy Cuss Aug 2014 #33
Good point. chervilant Aug 2014 #46
Michael Brown has never been convicted of a crime JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #26
this reminds me of the "slavery couldn't have been evil" because I refuse to believe so many people bettyellen Aug 2014 #91
The cops here were averaging 10 a year Warpy Aug 2014 #7
There's a good point in there. Igel Aug 2014 #10
Excessive force is not a race issue. talkguy365 Aug 2014 #20
It wasn't a box JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #27
The police need better training. talkguy365 Aug 2014 #35
We don't know how the officer felt JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #36
A local resident says differently. talkguy365 Aug 2014 #45
You still can't tell me how the thug was thinking JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #48
I'd imagine he was fueled by fear. talkguy365 Aug 2014 #60
Your imagination wouldn't hold up in a court of law JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #61
I know the case. talkguy365 Aug 2014 #62
I know the case too! JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #63
... sheshe2 Aug 2014 #64
You know how I know you've lost the argument? talkguy365 Aug 2014 #65
I didn't lose an argument my friend JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #66
More name calling and make blind accusations. talkguy365 Aug 2014 #68
Oh honey JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #69
Post removed Post removed Aug 2014 #70
I'm open - if it makes sense JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #71
I'm not hiding my beliefs. talkguy365 Aug 2014 #73
There it is JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #77
You seem to have a hard time handling the truth right in front of you. talkguy365 Aug 2014 #83
You keep changing the target JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #84
One person armed and in a vehicle against another person unarmed and on foot. Dark n Stormy Knight Aug 2014 #93
Link to The Talk JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #67
The starting point was the police car. Brown died car lengths away. Gore1FL Aug 2014 #75
He ran then turn around and charged. talkguy365 Aug 2014 #82
He turned around with his hands up and was shot according to the eye-witnesses. Gore1FL Aug 2014 #88
the coroner said one or two could have hit him from behind, and if not- his hands were up. bettyellen Aug 2014 #92
Oh JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #85
"Fear for my life" = LEO 101 justification for using weapon. Gormy Cuss Aug 2014 #50
I'm thinking JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #72
Excessive force hits minorities much harder Al Carroll Aug 2014 #29
A minor theft would lead credence to attacking an officer? Gormy Cuss Aug 2014 #34
Q: Exactly How Often Do Police Shoot Unarmed Black Men? blkmusclmachine Aug 2014 #21
police shoot first to often. They approach cars and enter homes way to fast! Sunlei Aug 2014 #24
To answer the question, "too often" Blue_Tires Aug 2014 #31
I'm trying to figure out JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #38
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #90

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
2. We had the rarest thing ever in Oklahoma. A cop shot an unarmed black man in the back
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 02:49 PM
Aug 2014

and went to prison for it. He was a captain.

Sure he only got four years for first degree manslaughter but it was a damned miracle.

 

agbdf

(200 posts)
3. Each case has to be individually reviewed based on the facts
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 03:10 PM
Aug 2014

If Brown attacked the officer and tried to take that officer's pistol away from him, as is being suggested, then the officer's use of deadly force is justified. A police officer, by his or her legal authority in all fifty states, does not have to sit helplessly by while a stronger, although unarmed suspect, overpowers that officer.

There is little doubt, based on the store video, that Brown had previously, that same evening, engaged in a strong arm robbery of a store. I believe the toxicology report, when released will reveal that he was on drugs. I have little doubt that he tried to attack the officer and reach for his gun. The repeated use of the term "unarmed" to describe this tragic incident does little to clarify what actually happened. The media has acted very irresponsibly throughout this entire affair.

As to the looters, they seem more motivated by the opportunity to obtain material goods. Some have been opportunistically driving in from miles away to loot stuff.


BronxBoy

(2,286 posts)
11. There are plenty of eyewitnesses..
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 06:28 PM
Aug 2014

that will call bullshit on your analysis. But they are Black so I guess they don't count in your world

66 dmhlt

(1,941 posts)
23. And YOU'VE tried him, exonerated and hail him as a white hero ...
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:50 AM
Aug 2014
(Hey, making shit up and creating straw men is easy - no wonder wingnuts do it ALL THE TIME)

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
32. Eh, lots are declaring Brown guilty before the facts are in.
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 11:12 AM
Aug 2014

Some are even making up shit, like a suspicion of being high on drugs to cast further doubt on whether this was homicide by cop.

 

agbdf

(200 posts)
37. Drugs will likely show up in tox report
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:27 PM
Aug 2014

I haven't exonerated anyone yet. I'm just pointing out that the facts might not coincide with the narrative you are pushing once all the details are in.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
42. Do you have any basis for stating that other than SWAG?
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 01:13 PM
Aug 2014

BTW, I'm not the one pushing a narrative. You are.

 

agbdf

(200 posts)
43. Experience
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 01:37 PM
Aug 2014

We'll know the tox results soon and when they show up exactly as I have predicted, I will show you, on this thread, why it is so and how I knew.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
49. Marijuana?
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 03:24 PM
Aug 2014


So having some level of marijuana detected in his system means what, exactly? That he'd be raging after store clerks and cops because of the demon weed?

GitRDun

(1,846 posts)
51. Marijuana stays in the system a long time after using it
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 03:44 PM
Aug 2014

A positive test does not necessarily mean he was high at time of shooting.

Gore1FL

(21,030 posts)
89. So he was too mellow to charge?
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 09:14 PM
Aug 2014

Mary Jane in the system means that he smoke pot recently. It has no useful impact on this case.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
76. Maybe ...
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 04:39 PM
Aug 2014
. I'm just pointing out that the facts might not coincide with the narrative you are pushing once all the details are in.


But the facts that are in, certain don't conform to the narrative you are pushing (i.e., eye witness statement versus "some are suggesting&quot .
 

cleduc

(653 posts)
52. You know what though? It's been going the other way as well.
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 03:56 PM
Aug 2014

Both are innocent until proven otherwise.

Folks are very understandably upset with the shooting and the overall situation in Ferguson.

If I had to bet on it right now based upon what I know, it looks bad on the officer. I have not seen very solid evidence he was justified to kill this young man.

But some of the stuff I've seen against the officer or the basis for some of it is a rush to judgement or over the top.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
54. I was replying to someone who appeared to be siding ONLY with the LEO, giving him the benefit of
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 04:33 PM
Aug 2014

the doubt while looking for reasons to blame Brown for his own death. That was the context here.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
9. Well, Jerry,
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 04:35 PM
Aug 2014

the allegations you seem to choose to accept as valid are allegations, and --just like most of the rest of us -- you were not at the scene to witness what actually happened.

Frankly, I cannot imagine how or why Mr. Brown tried to "attack" a lone police officer sitting in a squad car, who would have had his firearm -- ostensibly -- holstered at his hip. If the officer's gun was NOT holstered, what's the explanation? Why would he bring out his gun when addressing two young men "jaywalking"?

An eighteen year old unarmed BLACK man is dead! The police left his body uncovered in plain view for HOURS, without a shred of respect for him, his family, or his neighborhood. Given the rampant racism in our nation, I have a very difficult time making him the aggressor, and I have to wonder how you or anyone else does so.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
17. Wow. "If Brown attacked the officer and tried to take that officer's pistol away from him, as is
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 07:16 PM
Aug 2014

being suggested, then the officer's use of deadly force is justified." Exactly who is making such an asinine suggestion? The KKK? The young man was 35 yards away and moving away when shot in the back. He turned and was shot 5 or 6 more times. Your attempts to mold the story to apologize for the officer isn't very liberal minded. Are you in the correct blog? I am sure there are blogs that get all gushy when a police officer shoots an unarmed black person in the back.

 

agbdf

(200 posts)
39. 35 feet not yards
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:29 PM
Aug 2014

35 feet can be covered in just slightly over one second if someone charges at you.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
40. So let's see if I understand your position. The young man was walking away from the officer then
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:45 PM
Aug 2014

turned and charged and it took six bullets to eliminate the danger. Apparently the last bullet went thru the top of his head. So he ended up 35 feet from the officer. How far did he travel to establish he was "charging"? How far away did he walk before he changed his mind and charged an armed officer?

Looks to me like it will be an uphill battle for justice here.

 

agbdf

(200 posts)
41. Those facts will come in after a complete investigation
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:49 PM
Aug 2014

Also, officer's are trained to empty their magazine into someone they are shooting at. They don't just fire one shot and wait and see if someone maybe falls.

 

cleduc

(653 posts)
53. Let me try to clarify this 35 feet thing
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 04:18 PM
Aug 2014

The distance from the cruiser to Mike Brown's dead body was roughly 35 feet.

Mike might have (and please don't jump on me) run 50 feet (ballpark) from the cruiser and came back 15 feet to the 35 foot mark - according to a couple of less credible (at this particular moment) accounts.

The officer might have fired the final shot 30 feet from the cruiser - five feet from where Mike wound up.

There's lots we don't know.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
55. Let's see if I have that theory right. Michael Brown apparently got away from the officer.
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:52 PM
Aug 2014

And walked 50 feet. And during that time the officer most likely pulled out his gun and was shouting at Michael. At 50 feet Michael turns to face the officer with the gun pointed at him and charged. I wonder what made him charge? It took five shots to fell him and one more in the top of his head to "finish" him off in case he might think to get up.

I think that's wishful thinking of the racists among us.

Most likely Michael Brown walked 35 feet and the officer took a shot and missed. Michael turned and put up his hands as witnesses claim and was gunned down with five shots. And then the officer shot him in the head as the coup de grau. Shots (no pun intended) for everyone down at the cop bar.

 

cleduc

(653 posts)
56. "I think that's wishful thinking of the racists among us."
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 09:04 PM
Aug 2014

You're way out of line with that crack. Lose it.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
57. Yes I might have been. But then help me out. Why would anyone stretch the story to
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 11:39 PM
Aug 2014

support a police officer that shot a teen aged boy dead. An unarmed teen aged boy. All across the country the police are killing people with impunity. Why would you support that?

 

cleduc

(653 posts)
58. I have stated many times that this thing with the cop smells real bad
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 01:10 AM
Aug 2014

And so did what Zimmerman did to Trayvon Martin.

Now we had all kinds of great rhetoric and outrage when Trayvon got blown away. Right? What did it get us? A lousy case by the prosecutor and Zimmerman walks.

So I see a bit of a deja vu here. Shallow stuff like "4 witnesses say it and therefore, it must be true" and you're a racist if you don't ignore what the officer is saying (now corroborated by CNN confirming source):
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/08/19/ac-radio-show-account-michael-brown-death.cnn.html
and another witness is saying:



So we have a dispute in the testimony to some extent. Many would feel, including me, that the officer's side is less credible and more suspicious. So would you, because it represents the 50 ft to 35 ft tale.

To me, it doesn't hurt to look objectively at the officer's position because one of two things will result:
a) it gets verified as being truthful and therefore, we don't want to convict an innocent man
b) more likely based upon what I know of the case so far, it gets holes blown in it so it won't stand up in court

Likewise, it doesn't hurt to look objectively at Mike Brown for similar reasons and possible outcomes.

I think with the power of the internet and so many critical eyes on this case, such scrutiny might improve the legal argument such that justice can be done for Mike Brown with a better quality legal position that wasn't done for Trayvon Martin. Maybe we'll fall short but I can't see the harm in trying.

I posted this over at Daily Kos tonight when I got confronted with racism:
So what are you selling? Because the victim is black, we're not supposed to examine his actions?

Race should have nothing to do with it.

Step back for a moment:

A police officer shoots an unarmed man. You can swap races to your hearts content on which race did what in that example. The actions of both parties should be examined to determine if the actions of the shooter were justified.

If the roles were reversed, would it be racist to examine the actions of the black cop?

Just because in this case, the victim happens to be black, one wanting to examine the actions of a victim doesn't make that examiner a racist. Both parties have rights. You should treat both parties as equals, shouldn't you?

Now I realize that in places like Ferguson, there is a disproportionate number of blacks getting knocked off, discriminated against, etc. And that is a horrific disgrace that seems to have frustratingly gone on all my life and still badly needs to be corrected. The bright lights on Ferguson right now are likely to bring about some good change in that regard such that Mike Brown won't have died for nothing. But let's correct it with real equality - even in the court cases that decide such issues. Take the high road.

If Brown's actions didn't warrant him to be shot, we should be able to scrutinize them to pieces and still arrive at a just conclusion.

To me, I wonder when someone says "you can't go there because he's black" if that isn't racism or a double standard.

The sooner we stop with the labels and just say 'that man did this and that other man did that", regardless of race, the sooner we achieve real equality.

To me, Mike Brown isn't a black man. He a man and that's how he should be treated in our discussions, our justice system and even in death. And I will never apologize for treating him that way nor accept being labeled as a racist when I try to look at his actions objectively that way in the interest of truth and justice - whether they're good or bad actions.


A little history: I was a little student worker bee for RFK's campaign and MLK when they were alive. Protested the Vietnam war. Streaked against Nixon's "I have nothing to hide". Won my first gay rights battle in '74 - got some funding. Lost a student housing fight that made front pages in '76. Etc - right through to helping Obama get elected, etc. I've been fighting my little fights for civil and human rights for 51 years. So calling me a racist or as someone else called me tonight a "racist troll" is a little tough to take.

If you want to bring down this cop:
1) make sure he's guilty
2) make sure you've got an airtight case against him and all the BS they'll bring up trying to sway it
and that's what I've been trying to do.
 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
79. A police officer shot an unarmed teenager 5 or 6 times, making sure he was dead.
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 04:51 PM
Aug 2014

You can rationalize all you want. I call it cold blooded murder.

Gore1FL

(21,030 posts)
74. Probably not an overweight alleged smoker in flipflops who was apparently already shot once.
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 04:28 PM
Aug 2014

That might take a little more than a second--especially given his hands were raised (if we believe every witness.)

If Michael Brown was charging the officer, he took a rather circuitous route considering the undisputed starting point was the door of the police vehicle and he died car lengths away from it.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
78. LOL ...
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 04:50 PM
Aug 2014

As a former football and track man, I would suggest:

35 feet can be covered in just slightly over one second if someone charges at you.


Only if one happens to be a world class sprinter. A 4.2 second 40 yard dash is world-class speed ... do the math.

It not good to repeat stuff that you hear.
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
81. there are three feet in a yard
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 05:09 PM
Aug 2014

"do the math."

Granted it ignores acceleration, but a linear estimation of 40 yards in 4.2 seconds comes to 29 feet per second to two significant digits.

How does "doing the math" suggest the two statements are in substantial disagreement?

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
86. Simply ...
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 05:57 PM
Aug 2014

that one would have to be a world class sprint to cover 35 feet in "slightly more than a second."

hue

(4,949 posts)
22. I see you have already exonerated him.
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 06:13 AM
Aug 2014

"I believe the toxicology report, when released will reveal that he was on drugs. I have little doubt that he tried to attack the officer and reach for his gun."

Where's your evidence to back up your beliefs/mental fabrications?

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
25. How do you know it was Brown in the store video?
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 09:03 AM
Aug 2014

The video was very poor quality and gosh, don't they all look alike anyway?

So you think Brown reached into the car trying to take the officers gun? You must think him a fool. The gun probably was on the cops right hip and away from the window. Brown was a big guy and most likely a poor fit for crawling into a car window. Anyway if as you say he tried to get the gun he must have failed. How do we know he failed? Because he was killed with that very same gun!

But good idea with the toxicology report, one should be taken after every alleged crime. Where I used to work after any accident or injury requiring an emergency room visit a blood sample was mandatory to test for drugs. This was a manufacturing job, not a police job. By the way, how do you think officer Miller's toxicology report will look? Think it will show steroids or some other drug? What's that, they didn't take a blood sample from the alleged murderer?

Why does the term "unarmed" do little to clarify what happened? The accusation is that the COP SHOT AN UNARMED MAN WITH HIS HANDS IN THE AIR, not that he was defending himself from an armed and dangerous criminal. By the way, Brown had no criminal record, but that doesn't fit into the narrative does it?

Looters? Same as the store video, anything before and after the fact has nothing to do with the murder of Brown, stop with the diversions.

bl968

(360 posts)
5. Yes but
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 03:52 PM
Aug 2014

This works right up till the point that witnesses reported that he raised his hands and the officer kept firing.

 

agbdf

(200 posts)
6. Really?
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 03:58 PM
Aug 2014

I don't believe that for a minute. The police don't just gun people down in a racist fit of rage. If this guy was a racist, hellbent on murdering innocent African Americans, why did he wait six years after joining the force? Why does he have zero disciplinary history.

Fact: Brown committed a violent felony, strong arm robbery, earlier that night.

I'll take the word of a cop with a clean record over that of a criminal any day.

BronxBoy

(2,286 posts)
13. Criminal????
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 06:33 PM
Aug 2014

Please post Mr. Brown's conviction record.

Clean record??? You do know that police in Ferguson were allowed to investigate and write up their own complaint reports against them. How would we know if this cops record is really clean?

AT least one person has publicly come out and said he was an harassing asshole. But then again, she was Black and we shouldn't take her word over the "clean" cop

You're so transparent it's laughable.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
14. Have you noticed
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 06:41 PM
Aug 2014

that there has been an increase in the type of bloggers who have joined DU in the past day or two, and then post something that sounds suspiciously like a conservative perspective regarding the socio-political issue du jour?

That police officer KILLED an unarmed teenager! I find that completely insupportable!

BronxBoy

(2,286 posts)
15. Yep....
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 06:43 PM
Aug 2014

and are willing to smear a dead teenager yet go silent when confronted on their unsupported assurances that the cop was a good guy.

This poster is either very, very ignorant of American history when it comes to people of color or is being willfully obtuse. I suspect it's a little of both

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
16. Something else I'm noticing:
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 07:02 PM
Aug 2014

Some of those herein who post sexist or misogynistic drivel are showing up to support the "wait for more facts" stance. Interesting...

(Time for me to update my IL again...)

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
28. I found another one
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 09:25 AM
Aug 2014

Guy/Woman has about 25 posts - joined July 25th - talks a good game about the middle and not discounting Republicans. And of course jumped right on these too.


I'm sure the person you are responding to is just a trouble maker. It's very canned - the post.

Read it again - very very canned and c/p'd from some standard operating talking point list.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
30. Seems like more are coming out of the woodwork,
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 10:02 AM
Aug 2014

so to speak, to promote that Mike Brown was a criminal and that the officer who murdered him had a stellar record.

So predictable, so insupportable...

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
33. Don't update your IL, exercise your alert button.
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 11:14 AM
Aug 2014

Even though juries will let most of the trash stand, admin will see that the populace is unhappy about this RW nonsense.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
46. Good point.
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 01:46 PM
Aug 2014

I just noted in another thread the increase in the number of "long term" DUers with extremely low post counts adjuring that we have to "wait and see what REALLY happened." It's sad, really.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
26. Michael Brown has never been convicted of a crime
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 09:13 AM
Aug 2014

I'm sorry - was there a trial you know about - that the rest of us don't?

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
91. this reminds me of the "slavery couldn't have been evil" because I refuse to believe so many people
Wed Aug 20, 2014, 12:39 PM
Aug 2014

did evil things. This is the being an ostrich and denying reality because, as a white person you can ignore racism approach.
You know other officers were calling the protestors animals and throwing tear gas into crowds with children unprovoked too?
Or are all the reporters also liars?

Warpy

(110,908 posts)
7. The cops here were averaging 10 a year
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 04:05 PM
Aug 2014

but they were equal opportunity cowboy cops. The one that finally brought the Feds down on them happened to be white (or mostly so) but you couldn't tell what color he was by the video since he'd been sleeping rough for years.

He was no angel, either, with a long rap sheet and a history of mental illness. He still didn't deserve to die for illegal camping that fucked up some yuppie's view. Anyone looking at him would wonder how anyone could stand such a life, but he was standing it and he deserved to keep on living it.

He wasn't the only one. One guy was shot in his own side yard. His deadly weapon was a broom. That is how bad it has gotten.

It doesn't matter what color the victim is, it's about the cops, not their victims, and how much the cops need to be deprived of military hardware, told to use the money for better training for the cops they have and hiring more cops as time goes on. Mostly, they have to be deprived of the notion that they're an occupying army.

Igel

(35,191 posts)
10. There's a good point in there.
Sun Aug 17, 2014, 05:18 PM
Aug 2014

What's needed isn't just "how many?" but "at what rate compared to other groups?"

An earlier "context matters" post is also relevant. Otherwise we are forced into a "just the raw numbers matter, and under no circumstance should a black men ever be shot by police"--which presumably allows others to be shot. Unless we think that under no circumstances should police result to deadly force. I don't think that when whites are involved, or Latinos, or blacks, or Asians. You can't compare raw numbers, and without a comparison we can't tell if what's happening is excessive--we can suspect, we can allege, we can imagine, but those don't rise to the level of "knowledge"; and without context you can get a relatively small number of of horrible incidents skewing the data and its perception.

 

talkguy365

(47 posts)
20. Excessive force is not a race issue.
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:22 AM
Aug 2014

There is no doubt Michael Brown is a criminal who robbed a store over a box of cigars a few short minutes before encountering Officer Wilson. This lends credence to his account of being attacked by the suspect as he rolled up on him in the middle of the street. The officer reacted accordingly to a life or death situation up to the point he shot the teen in the back while his hands were raised. He should face punishment for excessive use of force but a racist he is not.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
27. It wasn't a box
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 09:17 AM
Aug 2014

They just put that in the police report to make themselves look better. It's pretty clear in the video that it's a pack or two at most. As well- I'm starting to see screen shots floating on twitter and it appears Mr. Brown purchased them. Who knows? :dunno: That's off the table now - since it is completely irrelevant because . . .

The cop also had no clue that Mr. Brown was engaged in any activity (he never got to have a trial in front of a jury of his peers) prior to telling him to 'get the fuck out of the street'.

Let me stop you on your next point - Eye witnesses say there was no traffic - Mr. Brown and his compadre weren't causing a kerfuffle.

It started with "Get the fuck out of the street!"

 

talkguy365

(47 posts)
35. The police need better training.
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 11:59 AM
Aug 2014

It's unacceptable to treat someone other than how you'd want to be treated, especially when you're in a position of power. It's also unacceptable when confronted by a hot headed cop to engage in abusive behavior whether it's talking back or attacking the officer. Regardless if Michael Brown was feeling guilty and fearing arrest for his scuffle in the store, or simply trying to fight a cop, he acted in a manor that left the officer fearing for his life. It's not the kind of behavior of a young man who's about to start college.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
36. We don't know how the officer felt
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 12:27 PM
Aug 2014

Can you please share with me the police report on this?

Oh waaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttt!

They haven't released it yet.

You are telling us about the officer's state of mind -

Prove it.

Go ahead.

Triple.

Double.

Dog.

Dare.

Ya.


And Mr. Brown did not live in a manor.

 

talkguy365

(47 posts)
45. A local resident says differently.
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 01:43 PM
Aug 2014
http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168698-eyewitness-recalls-important-detail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting

@6:28/6:29 of video

#1 How’d he get from there to there?

#2 Because he ran, the police was still in the truck – cause he was like over the truck

{crosstalk}

#2 But him and the police was both in the truck, then he ran – the police got out and ran after him

{crosstalk}

#2 Then the next thing I know he doubled back toward him cus - the police had his gun drawn already on him –

[there is dispute here whether he says "doubled back" or "coming back."]

#1. Oh, the police got his gun

#2 The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him

{crosstalk}

#2 Police fired shots – the next thing I know – the police was missing

#1 The Police?

#2 The Police shot him

#1 Police?

#2 The next thing I know … I’m thinking … the dude started running … (garbled something about “he took it from him”)

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
48. You still can't tell me how the thug was thinking
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 02:03 PM
Aug 2014

You just can't.

Because - the OFFICIAL police report has not been released.

You seem to be hip to the 'insider' knowledge - do you have any idea when they are going to release the thug's version of events?

Until then - Stop with the disinformation.

Until you can provide the police report - Do NOT speak to the officer's state of mind.

For all we know he could have been hopped on cocaine and steroids and completely out of his mind - but we don't know that at this time . . .


ETA: If all of you thug defenders are so sure he was in the right - then I'm sure you would agree he has nothing to hide by speaking out from his hiding place - right?

 

talkguy365

(47 posts)
60. I'd imagine he was fueled by fear.
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 11:23 AM
Aug 2014

An 18 year old robbery suspect had just accosted him in his vehicle. Then when he gave chase with gun drawn the suspect turned around and charged at him. The only valid response at that point is to shoot. It's unfortunate he had to fire so many shots, but it sounds like the suspect himself was hopped up on drugs. He took five shots including one to the head without missing a beat. It wasn't until the sixth and final shot to the head that he collapsed and died.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
61. Your imagination wouldn't hold up in a court of law
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 11:32 AM
Aug 2014

Your whole imaginary world falls apart right here -
18 year old robbery suspect had just accosted him in his vehicle.


^He didn't know that. Per his champion the Chief of Police - the thug had no idea about that ALLEGED convenience store robbery. ^


Next -
it sounds like the suspect himself was hopped up on drugs
I heard that the thug might have been a steroid addict - Wilson his name is right?




He took five shots including one to the head without missing a beat.
Go back - two to the head.
Shot in the eye - blinded.


Wow - you have a cool imagination though!


Does it pay to write fiction? How does one get a job like that? Do you know?

 

talkguy365

(47 posts)
62. I know the case.
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 11:42 AM
Aug 2014

It's true the officer didn't know about the robbery, but the suspect did. He was the one who initially feared the encounter assuming the officer knew or was about to find out he just robbed a convenience store. That's why he attacked the officer in his own vehicle.

The first five shots did not deter the suspect from advancing at the officer. It was the sixth and final shot that killed him instantly.

I'm not a paid contributor.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
63. I know the case too!
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 11:45 AM
Aug 2014

What are your thoughts on someone getting shot in the eye charging the thug?

Most young and old black males have a reasonable fear of LOE. Do you know any? Lived in a house with one?

Go to the AA Group and educate yourself on The Talk.



I admire your pluck but in this you are being sophomoric.

 

talkguy365

(47 posts)
65. You know how I know you've lost the argument?
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 01:07 PM
Aug 2014

You've insulted the officer on numerous occasions calling him a thug without one grain of evidence to suggest he's anything but a professional. I've also told you the suspect continued to charge him even after the shot that hit the eye. It wasn't until the shot at the top of the head that the suspect was subdued. This has been collaborated by several witnesses who are on police record.

I'm not familiar with the AA Group, but I do know I'm allowed to have my own opinion even if it doesn't jive with your views.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
66. I didn't lose an argument my friend
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 01:15 PM
Aug 2014

I was never in a competition with you to lose.

You however - showed me who you are. You automatically believe that Mr. Brown was a drugged up reefer addict 300 pound monster.

Mr. Brown is the young man who was not a suspect in ANYTHING when the thug told him to 'get the fuck out of the street'.

I'm sorry - but a professional polished person would not have used that kind of crass language to a college bound young American man.

Can't you see that my friend? Now tell me again - who were you arguing with/in a competition with?

This is why I kind of have this gut feeling about your presence here. It might take a few months - but it will be revealed.

See here's the thing - when a person shows me who they are - I believe them.

I'm allowed to have the deeply held belief. It works in any and all relationships.

That would be the African American group. There's a great thread about 'The Talk'. I promise you we aren't a bunch of thugs that are going to find out where you live, hunt you down, and charge you on your sidewalk. Dip a toe - learn something.

Understand - that him - 'that one' being referred to as a Thug - is very very common. We've seen this so many times and 'those people' time and again continue to show us who and what they are. Like that Zimpig guy ya know?

 

talkguy365

(47 posts)
68. More name calling and make blind accusations.
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 01:31 PM
Aug 2014

So far you called police thugs, accused me of calling black people thugs and I can only assume you're also accusing me of supporting George Zimmerman in the final sentence.

If you took the time to go back and read what I wrote, I already condemned the officer's actions if he told the suspect to 'get the fuck out of the street'. That still doesn't excuse the suspect's actions.

I'm sorry you feel everyone is out to get you.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
69. Oh honey
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 01:36 PM
Aug 2014

I don't have a victim mentality -

If you believe I have broken tos with my language you are free to alert on me - and/or to reach out to Admin to have me removed from the site.


And I didn't accuse you of calling black folks thugs - I've said you have bought into that meme.

Which is why you can't see the police officer started all of this. He should have understood that Mr. Brown's parents are tax payers and citizens and that he works for them - not against them.

That language is a very strong indication of precisely WHAT the man is - he is a Thug. I'm entitled to have my opinion - and if it hurts your feelings I'm sorry.

But I'm not backing off from it. There is nothing in the TOS that says I have to step and fetch to some thug who isn't even a member at DU. It's like the Zimpig - he's an easy target - because that's what he is. Unless there is some rule where we can't type 'thug' or 'pig' after someone's name - I dunno. . .

I'm new at this - you tell me.

Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #69)

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
71. I'm open - if it makes sense
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 02:11 PM
Aug 2014

When you continue to refer to Mr. Brown as a suspect - you are showing me what you believe.

It does not make sense to refer to Mr. Brown as a suspect. The 'incident' report from the Convenience store was not yet in play when he was shot.

He was not a suspect in anything - he was merely walking while black.


 

talkguy365

(47 posts)
73. I'm not hiding my beliefs.
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 04:12 PM
Aug 2014

Michael Brown is a criminal who strong armed a convenience store and attacked a police officer. He is to blame for his death and no one else.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
77. There it is
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 04:44 PM
Aug 2014


Michael Brown is a criminal who strong armed a convenience store and attacked a police officer. He is to blame for his death and no one else.


You should have just wrote that from the get go. Why dance around?

The Thug Officer stopped Mr. Brown for walking while black and violated his civil rights. He acted as judge, jury, and executioner for that crime (jay walking) only. It is my deeply held belief that this makes him too wet to step on, and too low to kick.

I'm not hiding it.

Welcome to DU - where progressives say what we really think when the Right isn't around to see.
 

talkguy365

(47 posts)
83. You seem to have a hard time handling the truth right in front of you.
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 05:14 PM
Aug 2014

The suspect was walking down the middle of the street. He was told to move out of the street. Instead of doing so he confronted the officer and attacked him in his own vehicle. He brought on the situation himself.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
84. You keep changing the target
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 05:23 PM
Aug 2014

And I'm still waiting for that incident report.

Which would clear this up - but for now we know T.O. Said, "Get the fuck out of the street!"

Show me where he attacked the officer. Have you seen the incident report?

For being here a month you stick to a pretty solid script! I give you credit for paying close attention to Fox nd CNN. Brava! Brava!

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,760 posts)
93. One person armed and in a vehicle against another person unarmed and on foot.
Wed Aug 20, 2014, 05:57 PM
Aug 2014

Your analysis seems to be lacking objectivity.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
67. Link to The Talk
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 01:19 PM
Aug 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11878130

You should really read that so you can come to learn something about how black Americans survive the brutality of the Thugs in Blue.

Gore1FL

(21,030 posts)
75. The starting point was the police car. Brown died car lengths away.
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 04:35 PM
Aug 2014

"Charging" implies running towards. If Brown was running towards the officer, how did he get so far away in the process?

 

talkguy365

(47 posts)
82. He ran then turn around and charged.
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 05:11 PM
Aug 2014

If he was running away there's no way all six shots enter from the front of the body.

Gore1FL

(21,030 posts)
88. He turned around with his hands up and was shot according to the eye-witnesses.
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 09:12 PM
Aug 2014

The autopsy verifies that part of their accounts.

Why would he run away and then charge? It doesn't make sense.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
50. "Fear for my life" = LEO 101 justification for using weapon.
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 03:30 PM
Aug 2014

Saying that is automatic these days.

It's unacceptable to place the burden for ratcheting down the situation on the citizen when he's got a hot-headed cop in his face. The onus is on the LEO.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
72. I'm thinking
Tue Aug 19, 2014, 02:13 PM
Aug 2014

Mr. Brown had a reason to fear for his life. That's why he put his hands in the air.

But he didn't have gun to defend himself.

No sidewalk.

No knife.

The man had nothing on him - except maybe a few cigars. Maybe. I'm still not sure I believe he had them on his person when he was shot.

But again - they - the Ferguson PD can't seem to release an incident report.

Al Carroll

(113 posts)
29. Excessive force hits minorities much harder
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 09:56 AM
Aug 2014

I'll give you an example from my own experience as Mexican and American Indian. As a teenager I was stopped by cops on average *every other day.* I'll bet that's higher than anyone white in here.

A white student when I was in college told me a story of being stopped by the campus cops. He yelled at them, "Just give me the ticket mother***er!" I'd never do that without expecting a nightclub to the head or getting locked up for the night.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
24. police shoot first to often. They approach cars and enter homes way to fast!
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 08:54 AM
Aug 2014

They want to use their weapons and military gear.
Some patience and quit acting like warriors. Treat every citizen stop with the same respect, no matter the citizens tone of voice or appearance.

Response to hue (Original post)

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