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Thu Jan 19, 2017, 01:01 PM

 

I think I have a good understanding of why Hillary lost, but what I still don't get

is how Dems got smoked in so many Senate races and other down ticket races, especially when all Republicans are just so awful in general.

That can't all be due to gerrymandering, or Russian influence.

Was it just an off year with bad candidates?

Did Trump actually excite GOP voters far more than we really understand?

Did Hillary at the top motivate many GOP voters to vote for a GOP congress to block her?

I think part of the reason the Dems have been doing badly is the incredible power of conservative media and brainwashing, that most of us can never understand because we don't expose ourselves to it or are not wired that way.

My biggest disappointment is just seeing people vote for Republicans and forgetting history of how bad these people really are when they have power. It wasn't even that far back when we had the terrible GW Bush. Or just look at Kansas.

I keep feeling like this party-- the GOP-- shouldn't be sustainable, they are so awful, and they keep failing when in power.

Yet they still win.

Obama only won when they were fully exposed as crooks and had crashed the economy massively. Yet they have bounced back and are winning again with horrible, racist, dumb, obnoxious candidates.

How can we overcome this insane power they have?

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Arrow 55 replies Author Time Post
Reply I think I have a good understanding of why Hillary lost, but what I still don't get (Original post)
Fast Walker 52 Jan 2017 OP
Hoyt Jan 2017 #1
Fast Walker 52 Jan 2017 #3
Garrett78 Jan 2017 #5
Fast Walker 52 Jan 2017 #6
Garrett78 Jan 2017 #12
Fast Walker 52 Jan 2017 #47
NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #7
JTFrog Jan 2017 #8
jzodda Jan 2017 #10
NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #21
brush Jan 2017 #29
NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #31
brush Jan 2017 #36
Fast Walker 52 Jan 2017 #48
Fast Walker 52 Jan 2017 #49
NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #17
JTFrog Jan 2017 #18
NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #20
JTFrog Jan 2017 #53
Hoyt Jan 2017 #9
JTFrog Jan 2017 #13
NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #19
Garrett78 Jan 2017 #23
NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #26
Garrett78 Jan 2017 #28
NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #32
Garrett78 Jan 2017 #42
BainsBane Jan 2017 #44
Hoyt Jan 2017 #33
NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #35
Hoyt Jan 2017 #37
BainsBane Jan 2017 #45
stonecutter357 Jan 2017 #51
Name removed Jan 2017 #2
Fast Walker 52 Jan 2017 #4
Chitown Kev Jan 2017 #11
Fast Walker 52 Jan 2017 #15
24601 Jan 2017 #14
Fast Walker 52 Jan 2017 #16
24601 Jan 2017 #24
brush Jan 2017 #30
Garrett78 Jan 2017 #25
Buckeye_Democrat Jan 2017 #22
LisaM Jan 2017 #27
Fast Walker 52 Jan 2017 #41
JI7 Jan 2017 #43
Fast Walker 52 Jan 2017 #50
Berlin Vet Jan 2017 #34
Fast Walker 52 Jan 2017 #40
JTFrog Jan 2017 #54
wishstar Jan 2017 #38
Fast Walker 52 Jan 2017 #39
senz Jan 2017 #46
doc03 Jan 2017 #52
joshcryer Jan 2017 #55

Response to Fast Walker 52 (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 01:08 PM

1. So-called "white working class" is mad because they are becoming a minority and think their plight

is so awful and that Blacks, Hispanics, Disabled, women, LGBT, etc., are getting more than their fair share. You'll be criticized for calling "white working class" Trump supporters as racist/bigoted/greedy.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 01:58 PM

3. so they are getting more desperate as the country gets more diverse?

 

is that how the right still wins elections?

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 02:00 PM

5. Bigotry, particularly racism, transcends class interests.

This is why it's foolish to think, "If we just had a more progressive economic message, we would win much more often."

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 02:01 PM

6. so how do we get over bigotry???

 

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:03 PM

12. For starters, we won't ever eliminate it.

There are people and organizations doing good work in this area, though. I'm part of a Racial Justice Organizing Committee where I live. As an organization, we go to person of color organizations and take direction from those organizations as to what they need done. It might be as simple as data entry or moving office furniture. It might be attending a rally, helping to promote legislation or campaigning for a particular candidate. We also have a study committee and invite people from the community. We study oppression theory, institutionalized racism and how to address those things.

Reverend Barber, the North Carolina NAACP President, is probably on the right track (and I say that as an atheist for whom religion does not inform my viewpoint).

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 08:08 AM

47. wow-- that's great. I didn't know that was something that existed

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 04:03 PM

7. This kind of attitude is exactly WHY Dems lost...

 

The reason white working class voters went with Trump is because they are sick and tired of the following things:

1. Having their very REAL job and economy concerns ignored for decades in favor of focusing only on issues related to minorities or legalizing weed. They are sick of Democrats never focusing on issues that also matter to and impact EVERYONE. These people usually support minority issues too, but are fed up with their concerns never mattering and being accused or being racists/bigots or being shamed and made to feel guilty about wanting their concerns cared about too.

2. Lack of respect and being talked down to or treated like they are stupid by some Democrats. (This is what is meant by the elitism complaint.)

I see it happening here. I'm a swing voting Independent and reading some of this stuff pisses me off so deeply. Until Democrats smarten the fuck up and actually LISTEN instead of assuming they know it all they will keep on losing. There is absolutely NO reason why Democrats can't care about the economic hardships and struggle of ALL of the working class just as much as they care about issues that impact minority groups. If Dems are honestly incapable of doing BOTH then they don't deserve to win.

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 04:50 PM

8. Wow, you sure got that backwards. That's some mighty hefty and undeserved bashing of Democrats.

 

You do realize where you are posting, right?



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Response to JTFrog (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 05:21 PM

10. No he has some good points

Look at the vote a few days ago when Dem Senators voted with Republicans to prevent cheaper Canadian drugs.

Dems should be up in arms over stuff like this. Sure it's a drop in the bucket but it's the symbolism. Dems as a party have embraced big money from Wall Street and other places to such a degree it's tainting their message.

Trump should have lost in a landslide. These white working class people should be our voters. The message of globalism that's harsh and unfair should be left to Republicans.

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Response to jzodda (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:39 PM

21. Thank you

 

At least one person here understands that you don't win by alienating voters based on assumptions made in order to avoid taking responsibility for the part you play in your own problems.

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #21)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:23 PM

29. You're overlooking the elephant in the room. Repugs cheat.

Last edited Thu Jan 19, 2017, 09:07 PM - Edit history (1)

Hillary, the Democrat, did get nearly 3 million more votes which I'm saying not to console us but to remind us, just as in the last election cycles, Democrats get more votes than the repugs. The country favors Dem policies. The repugs just figure out how to steal elections, and this one was stolen as well, which cost us house and senate and even state-level offices.

Time to stop agonizing over our failures to appeal to WWCs who fall for repug racist dog whistles. It's time to confront reality. THEY CHEAT, HAVE BEEN CHEATING FOR FOREVER AND ALWAYS WILL TRY TO CHEAT BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN WIN (see Nixon's behind-the-back treachery over the Vietnam war negotiations just before the election; see Reagan's behind-the-back treachery over the Iranian hostages just before the election; see Katherine Harris and the Brooks Brothers riot in Florida in 2000; see Ken Blackwell in Ohio in 2004; see Rove in 2000, 2004, 2008 and 2012. He wasn't successful in '08 and '12 but he tried mightily; and of course see Comey, Putin, vote suppression, vote count machinations, gerrymandering, et al in addition to Crosscheck in '16).

We can't look the other way anymore by trying to overcome their dirty tricks by registering more voters than they do because of our demographic advantage BECAUSE THEY ALWAYS WILL CHEAT AND WILL COME UP WITH NEW WAYS TO CHEAT LIKE INTERSTATE CROSSCHECK in this cycle.

We need to stay alert to what they're up to, put on a concerted, sustained effort to loudly expose their cheating over and over and over to get media coverage; we need to combat in court over and over and over when needed to put a stop to it BECAUSE THEY ALWAYS WILL CHEAT.

We can't let up.

Whoever takes over at the DNC needs to create a department just for this and they need to fund it well.

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Response to brush (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 08:21 PM

31. What else is new? Did Obama just whine and give up?

 

No...he understood not to alienate any voter who didn't sniff his asshole.

If Democrats don't get over this stupid habit of demanding 100% conformity or screw you attitude they will NEVER win again AND won't deserve to.

Every election is an uphill battle. You either adjust to those challenges and fight hard and NEVER take voters for granted or you lose. Period.

Democrats can sit back and piss and moan over how bad the GOP cheats or they can work their asses off by going after EVERY voter, not fucking attacking and alienating them.

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 09:04 PM

36. Who's saying give up, or is pissing and moaning and complaining? I'm clearly saying fight...

their cheating.

Did you not get that?

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #31)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 08:10 AM

48. what conformity you are talking about??? Example?

 

and not sure how the GOP didn't alienate voters too...

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Response to brush (Reply #29)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 08:11 AM

49. something at the top of my list is for Dems to call out Repub cheating more forcefully

 

they need to work the media better, for sure.

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Response to JTFrog (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:27 PM

17. It is very much deserved and needed

 

And as long as Democrats keep their heads stuck in the sand denying the truth they will continue to leave their asses fully exposed to getting beat by the other side.

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:28 PM

18. Yea, let's just not focus on Republican cheating or foreign influence. Let's keep bashing the good

 

guys.

Let's pretend that those racist bigoted assholes are really just "white working class" folks who really care about Democratic values but don't have anywhere to turn but to the Trumps of the world.

It's brilliant I tell ya.



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Response to JTFrog (Reply #18)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:37 PM

20. If Democrats stopped being so goddamned exclusive

 

It would not have been even remotely close enough for GOP cheating and crap to make a difference.

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 10:05 AM

53. Exclusive?!?

 

No one is barred from agreeing with the Democratic Party platform.

You continue to drone on about Trump voters like they didn't understand they were casting their vote for one of the vilest humans on earth. They supported his racist misogynistic and hateful rhetoric yet you are all over defending them and complaining about Democrats.

Do you seriously think we should stop fighting for equal rights, safe environments for women, clean air for our children, healthcare for all, paths to citizenship, higher minimum wage, lower cost education, safe gun laws, regulations for food safety, SCIENCE, climate change mitigation and so on?

I would rather lose than cater to the haters.

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 05:13 PM

9. Well let's deport Mexicans, trash Blacks, kill Muslims, etc., because that is what white wing

-- excuse me, "white working class" -- Trump supporters want.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:17 PM

13. +1 nt

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:34 PM

19. Oh bullshit!

 

I am a white working class voter. I voted for Clinton. I'm an Independent, though, and although I have not voted for a Republican since Sarah Palin crawled out of whatever shit hole she emerged from...the Democrats WILL lose me if they don't start including me too. I don't want to deport anyone, have muslim, black and hispanic friends and neighbors and my family includes blacks, hispanics and LGBTs. I have stuck up for minorities my entire life, and I'm over 50.

So tell me...how long do you feel entitled to my loyal support before you give a shit about the economy and jobs that I care about and impacts me? I've supported and voted for causes for all minorities. And what happens when people like me point out that they want Democrats to work for them too? They get called a fucking racist.

It's bullshit. If you want me on your team and to support things that matter to you then you better be prepared to show me the same consideration. If you can't do that then why should I stay on your team?

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #19)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:59 PM

23. What's bullshit is the narrative that says Clinton didn't talk enough about economics/jobs.

What's also bullshit is the narrative that says Clinton lost among the working class or among those who identified the economy as their top concern.

What's also bullshit is the anti-establishment narrative following an election in which the establishment did very well.

Those narratives are verifiably false, and this has been shown over and over and over again on DU.

What's also bullshit is the notion that only a fraction of Trump supporters are racists or sexists or heterosexists. For cryin' out loud, 80% of his supporters are Birthers.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #23)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:09 PM

26. This is NOT just about Hillary Clinton

 

Her issue in the rust belt is that they associated her with NAFTA and she, like many here, assumed and believed she was entitled to the votes there. Those voters have had their issues ignored for DECADES. They're fed up and sick of it, so they believed Trump. They'll figure out he lied soon enough and MAYBE they will come back to the Democratic Party....but they sure as fuck won't if you all keep calling them all racists.

ANYONE who throws around ugly accusations so casually without even knowing people may as well just vote for Trump in 2020 because they are helping ensure he wins again.

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #26)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:18 PM

28. Again, 80% of his supporters are Birthers. That's verifiable, not merely an assumption.

Not 8%. 80%. Birtherism, of course, is rooted in racism.

And the issue of trade wasn't what motivated Trump supporters.

You've bought into one false narrative after another.

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Response to Garrett78 (Reply #28)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 08:24 PM

32. Oh for fuck's sake that is not true

 

Cite your proof from a reputable source, please. I know plenty of Trump voters and not a single one of them are birthers. Stop making shit up.

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #32)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 10:29 PM

42. Okay, it's 79%. I've posted this numerous times before in response to your posts.

Public Policy Polling is reputable. Link: http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2015/08/trump-supporters-think-obama-is-a-muslim-born-in-another-country.html

61% believe Obama was born in another country and 18% are unsure, for a total of 79%. Only 21% believe he was born in the US. Only 12% believe Obama is a Christian.

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #26)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 12:44 AM

44. She's associated with NAFTA

Like Trump voters are associated with racism. NAFTA wasn't her policy. She is an independent person, not an appendage of her husband.

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #19)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 08:28 PM

33. Did you vote for Trump? If not, then learn to read.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 08:53 PM

35. Nope, but I have relatives who did and they don't hold the views you are claiming

 

It's never OK to stereotype. Assuming things about people you don't even know just because you don't understand why they voted a certain way is not right. You should actually ASK them why they voted as they did before labeling people.

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #35)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 09:12 PM

37. Voting for someone you know to be a racist, bigot, and worse is a tip off, don't you think?

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 12:44 AM

45. Nor does Hillary hold the views

you and they attribute to her.

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Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 08:18 AM

51. treated like they are stupid?

If you voted for racists trump you are a deplorable POS just like him...

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 01:59 PM

4. okay, but Hillary wasn't that weak and Trump was awful

 

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 05:22 PM

11. Actually, the Dems picked up 5(?) seats in the House and 2 or three in the Senate

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Response to Chitown Kev (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:20 PM

15. good point.

 

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:18 PM

14. Senate races are statewide and can't be gerrymandered like House of Representatives districts. n/t

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Response to 24601 (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:20 PM

16. right-- so what is the explanation for the GOP success?

 

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:59 PM

24. My undergrad didn't have formal majors, but was the equivalent of poly sci. My take is that there

a monolithic reason. An individual is the sole judge of their vote criteria. It can be a deep policy analysis or as shallow as not voting for anyone who parts their hair on the right.

Each down-ballot race is unique and had their own reasons - like Bayh losing Indiana because voters judged he had essentially left the state and become a DC area resident.

But for President, I saw several things that had an effect that were unrelated to Russian hacking and Hillary's emails.

The presumed inevitability of Hillary Clinton led to a high degree of complacency which in turn led many to skip voting or feel it was a safe year to cast that vote for Johnson or Stein in an effort to open up the political process to more than the two major parties. I have a relative in his early 30s who posted all kinds of shit in favor of Johnson, explaining after the election that since he knew Hillary would win anyway, he wanted Jonson to reach the thresh hold for future ballot access.

The daily dialog made a number of Trump voters go dark because they didn't want the hassle - so polls were affected.

There was a large anti-establishment vote. It not only hurt Hillary in the General Election but what allowed Trump to prevail in the Primary.

The high degree of negative ads and coverage ultimately made people tone deaf and changed the channels.

While Trump didn't release tax returns, Hillary didn't release paid speeches. It's reasonable to infer that 8 years of a Democratic Administration would have taken legal action if Trump cheated on his taxes and there is a degree of presumed government oversight. But there was no equivalent oversight for the speeches. And neither has a legal requirement for disclosure.

And don't discount Allan Lichtman's13 keys to the White House. He detested Trump but pointed out that he was headed for a win. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/23/trump-is-headed-for-a-win-says-professor-whos-predicted-30-years-of-presidential-outcomes-correctly/?utm_term=.84e73f36c1e2


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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:26 PM

30. The repugs cheat. They always cheat. See post #29

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Response to 24601 (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:04 PM

25. But I think gerrymandering still impacts statewide races.

In the sense that Representatives have sway in who wins statewide races, and have power to commit voter suppression.

Gerrymandering is often used to lessen the impact persons of color have, and that is bound to impact statewide policy.

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:54 PM

22. Interesting article about it.

Nationally, Democrats won 6 million more votes in Senate races. Many of those votes were "wasted" by huge wins for some candidates, much like Hillary's national votes were largely "wasted" with big victories in some states while others were barely lost.

http://www.nbcnews.com/specials/democrats-left-in-the-lurch

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Response to Buckeye_Democrat (Reply #22)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:17 PM

27. Liberals are piling up in cities.

I know, I live in one of them (Seattle). I can tell you that the people moving here pay attention to national races and vanish in between (we had four elections in the last year, and one had the lowest percentage turnout since the Depression). They are in a tech bubble and don't think about down-ticket races. They have liberal social values, but don't understand that the Democrats share them so don't identify with the party.

Aside from the apathetic turnout in off years (which, I think, leads to a smaller candidate pool), as long as people keep flocking to the cities, this is not going to change unless our system changes. Along with the other problems, it's becoming unrepresentative. States that are losing population are getting way more power in proportion to their size.

How do we get people to move to these places? I always think that North Carolina and Georgia are on the cusp of change, because they have liberal big cities, but it hasn't quite happened yet. I'd think that anywhere that has a reasonably livable city in a red state could flip the state in a few years. But people won't move there. I get that because life is often intolerable in rural areas, especially for POC and LGBT people, but if we continue with NYC and Seattle and San Francisco and Portland growing and growing and red states losing population, nothing will change except that it will get more lopsided. And on the state level, gerrymandering has made a huge difference.

I wish some of the tech companies would target smaller cities, though that's tricky, too, because I'm sure the people who live there don't want the high rents and other crap that comes with gentrification.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 09:31 PM

41. seems like we keep hearing the Dems are going to flip these states any day

 

with demographics... and it never materializes

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Reply #41)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 11:43 PM

43. it did in Virginia and Colorado and while we still lost texas , Hillary made gains from previous

years .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #43)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 08:13 AM

50. ah, good point-- slow but incremental improvement in some states

 

sadly, we lost key states we normally win.

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 08:47 PM

34. What Have You Done For Me

We need to have Democratic challengers ask the simple question, "What has the Republican Party done to make your life better?" Because they have done nothing for the poor and the middle class. Put that on a campaign sign with one side listing things the Democrats have done (Social Security, Medicare, etc) and on the other (Republican) side nothing. Call them out. Have debates (my Congresswoman (R) would not debate). We can do this.

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Response to Berlin Vet (Reply #34)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 09:29 PM

40. yes, seriously!!!

 

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Response to Berlin Vet (Reply #34)


Response to Fast Walker 52 (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 09:19 PM

38. In my state, Koch's, NRA and other Repubs provided millions more in TV ads

Repubs had a 10 million dollar advantage in ability to run ads with which they smeared the Dem so forcefully aligning with Hillary and the Dem challenger couldn't overcome that

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Response to wishstar (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 09:29 PM

39. ah yes-- the $$$ factor

 

thanks

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Original post)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 02:51 AM

46. A lot of people were dissatisfied with the status quo.

 

Dems will do better if they pay closer attention to the people.

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Original post)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 08:58 AM

52. I heard a charge made, I beleive on the Thom Hartmann radio show yesterday

that 1.6 million people were purged from the voting rolls by Cross Check. To start off I am white and live in redneck
eastern Ohio. If anyone says that race didn't have anything to do with Republicans winning they are full of it. Everyday
I hear the N---- word and sometimes my head is about to explode to tell these people it isn't the N---s that are the
problem in this country they are. Here is an example of how f---g crazy they are. At the coffee shop a couple days ago
this guy sees some candy that had M&Ms mixed with a Hershey Bar or something. He says the f---g liberals are pushing s--t
like that to make kids think that everything mixed together is better like whites with blacks and queers getting married, perverts
using restrooms. I kid you not, that is the stuff I hear.

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Original post)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 10:20 AM

55. Dem's stayed home.

Lack of enthusiasm.

Voter depression has been a GOP tactic since they lost hard in 2006.

Going after Dems, shitting on them, from the left, that shit didn't happen 20 years ago.

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