2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI fear Democrats are laying the groundwork for future losses by refusing to learn from defeat
Before the election, when most people assumed Hillary would win, many Democrats were horrified when people on the right began to hint that they would not accept the results of the election, that the whole system is rigged.. We laughed at their absurd, childish responses to impending defeat. Also, we were furious when Trump lumped all Mexicans and Muslims together, reminding him that you can't judge an entire group of people by the people on the fringe.
Then we lost. I, personally, couldn't sleep at all that night. The horrible thought - a game show host and demagogue as our next president. But the next morning I snapped out of it and went into analysis mode, because that's what competitors do if they care about winning next time - they analyze what went wrong so they don't repeat mistakes. They strengthen their weak spots.
What has disappointed me almost as much as Trump victory though, has been the new strategies of many of my fellow Democrats. Many are acting just like republicans were just before the election. They're disputing the outcome of the election, adopting a strategy of "let's say it's rigged first and wait for the proof which surely will be coming." They're lumping all Republicans together as a bunch of racists, refusing to see that some of those Trump voters in the rust belt voted for Obama twice.
Then the other denials - it was Bernie's fault. Did we forget that Trump was repudiated by almost every guy who ran against him? The 2nd and 3rd place finishers went so far as to say they wouldn't or maybe wouldn't even vote for him! The Bushes said they wouldn't vote for him.. Their party was split in a million pieces, and Hillary had ONE competitor, and the vast majority of his supporters turned out for Hillary, I bet more so than the PUMAs did for Obama in 2008. So how can Trump win with such a splintered party and we cannot? No, Sanders isn't to blame.
Then it was Comey's fault. So we're supposed to believe that the weekly Trump scandals were all ineffective but this one letter from Comey convinced hundreds of thousands of people to change their vote at the last minute or stay home? Do you really think people vote on a letter like that rather than what they think a president is going to do for them? And let's look at who DID change their states from blue to red - the rust belt. MANY people in those states are still on Trade Adjustment Assistance - that means they get welfare because of the lost manufacturing jobs. You think it's just a coincidence that those are the states that flipped? Did you see the final ad Trump ran in those swing states? It was what has typically been a DEMOCRATIC message. Look it up, watch it. It's all about the poor and the middle class versus the rich and powerful. But Trump's rich! How stupid his followers are! Yeah and they also know that the Clintons are rich and part of the "establishment", so it cancels out doesn't it? Trump tapped into anti-establishment, populism... It pains me that Trump used that message against us. That has always been OUR message. What was Hillary's final ad in the swing states? The Katy Perry ad. I liked it, but I'd rather have an ad that hits at the rich and powerful - the oligarchy that is slowly strangling the 99%. The wealth of the 1% has been increasing sooo fast, while the 99% stagnate or fall further down. That's the fight we need to be having, in addition to the social causes.
And now it's "fuck the rust belt those jobs aren't coming back" and "robots are taking their jobs." That is also one of those catch phrases that happens to be bullshit -
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2015/04/29/dont-blame-the-robots-for-lost-manufacturing-jobs/
When I lose, I don't make excuses. I hate losing so much, that I will painfully examine myself, ego be damned, to find out why I lost so that it never happens again. What I see from a lot of fellow Democrats, however, is "it's rigged, someone will prove it."
I really want to work and talk with fellow lefties who are interested in helping the Democratic Party learn from this defeat. We all hate those people who watch sports and blame the refs for all their losses. I really don't want that to become the Democratic Party. If this were baseball we'd be wondering what trades we need to make in the offseason to bolster our infield, or hitting, or whatever.. Instead I see a lot of doubling down on the same strategies that we just lost with. Lost to a horrible jackass. If we think there's nothing wrong with our strategy after just losing to a horrible jackass, WE ARE LAYING THE GROUNDWORK FOR THE NEXT DEFEAT
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WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)JackAssRadicals. This seems to be a great post for them.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)and do some real work. Of course, it is easier to be a keyboard warrior.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)Also off topic...get a star...it costs very little and you seem to enjoy this site...over 1400 posts...that's how we keep this going.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)We should all bow down to your mighty posts.
okieinpain
(9,397 posts)Response to WhiteTara (Reply #17)
emulatorloo This message was self-deleted by its author.
derby378
(30,252 posts)I was a Democratic precinct chair for 10 years in Dallas, TX, and yes, I used to have a star. As it is, I've had to focus on taking care of myself for a while. But I may be able to get another star soon.
Thing is, I feel like some in the state party are trying to squeeze me out. Not good.
CrispyQ
(36,424 posts)
This is a discussion board. Why are you trying to shut down discussion by suggesting the OP doesn't do enough for the party, when you have no clue what the OP does or doesn't do?
The dems didn't just drop the ball, they lost the game & they will continue to lose the game if they don't come up with a different strategy. They can start by ditching the "when they go low, we go high" bullshit. That's fine if you're up against a foe with ethics & integrity, but the dems are not & now the GOP is in control of the federal government, & over a majority of the state governments, too. They have their boot on our neck & the dems are equally to blame for this clusterfuck, because they haven't been a true opposition party for over 35 years. The GOP is going to act fast & bold & the dems may not see power again.
okieinpain
(9,397 posts)
stonecutter357
(12,694 posts)
realmirage
(2,117 posts)And I'd like to stop losing. But if you want to keep doing the same thing and expect different results, get used to losing
dionysus
(26,467 posts)there wasn't anything controversial in the OP, i've seen a lot of people bristle at the mere notion of addressing our mistakes and making sure they don't happen the next time. That's just common sense. It need not be a primary rehash.
Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)What is your point? Address the OP, please. We've lost pretty much every election this century except three (2006, 2008, 2012).
3/10 is good for baseball, but sucks in politics. . .2018 is shaping to be a Democratic Party bloodbath.
Oh, and we've lost most governorships and state houses too. So, maybe the OP isn't blowing smoke and the arrogance of some needs to end.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Crunchy Frog
(26,578 posts)When I checked out that board, they didn't seem at all interested in improving the Democratic Party's ground game. I guess you know stuff about them that I don't.
WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)But they sure love to denigrate both the Party and the Candidate.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)The party just got its ass handed to it across the country at all levels.
If you think the best way forward is to cheer them on in the same direction, then we may as well just hand all power to the thugs on the right now and save ourselves any more effort.
WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)gerrymandering districts, a fawning media with lies quoted as truths and voter suppression, then of course it is all the fault of the candidate and the Party.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)There isn't any amount of vote tampering in the world that should have allowed a Democrat to lose to that imbecile.
WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)problem? What are the steps that Democrats need to take next?
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)1) Accept that working people across the western world are suffering economically since the big crash. Accept also that the bailing out of the banks created a huge groundswell of anger towards both parties, and contributed to people disassociating themselves mentally from their traditional political allegiences.
2) Create a strong economic platform that offers clear benefits that can be simply explained to voters. Not every voter has a degree in economics and they sure as hell aren't going to trust a Dem politician who just tells them 'this is good for you'. Find a couple of very clear policies we can explain in a single sentence, and really penetrate peoples consciousness with.
3) Stop with the purity test crap. We stand on a platform of equality and rights for everyone. If we get into government we're going to be a party who fights tooth and nail to protect women's reproductive rights, minority rights and the rest, but that doesn't mean you're unwelcome if you don't share exactly the same beliefs. We want your vote, not to marry you. There's people out there who are pro-life or pro-gun or pro-whatever else we don't like, and yet its not the main consideration that determines their vote. We don't have to sell out our principles, we just need to stop demanding everyone else share them before they get the privilege of voting for us.
4) Start building organization and running candidates everywhere. I don't care if a county has been red for 50 year, if there's an election there needs to be a Dem on the ticket and our message going out. The Republicans have taken control of so many grassroots level elected positions its ridiculous. We fight for equality and rights for everyone, and we don't do that if we concede before the race has even started.
5) Start thinking locally not just nationally. That old saying 'All politics is local' is as true today as it was back then. Decentralize power in the party and start listening to the actual needs of real Americans, not just deciding ourselves how things should be and lecturing them on it.
That should be enough to get started. 
WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)Now, what steps are you taking first?
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)But it needs to be done with the participation of all sides of the party. We need to unite under some very clear principles that unite us not just socially but economically as well. It will be hard, but we need to remember that idealism isn't a bad thing. People generally won't be energized to vote for 'slightly better'. We run on hard to achieve targets, and we keep fighting for them because they're worth fighting for.
WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)I mean specifically. Great ideas but we need actual work. 
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)We agree on the vast majority of issues, we just need to stop falling out over the few remaining ones and accept that if together we can achieve 80% (or even 50% or whatever) of what we each want, that's a hell of a lot better than achieving nothing.
WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)do you plan to achieve this?
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)for You post, it's good to know who to add to the ignore list.
WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)
elleng
(130,749 posts)in the offseason to bolster our infield, or hitting, or whatever.. Instead I see a lot of doubling down on the same strategies that we just lost with. Lost to a horrible jackass. If we think there's nothing wrong with our strategy after just losing to a horrible jackass, WE ARE LAYING THE GROUNDWORK FOR THE NEXT DEFEAT.'
CrispyQ
(36,424 posts)It is truly a bang-your-head moment.
elleng
(130,749 posts)OK, getting outta here (into the COLD) to avoid all the bang my head inducing stuff.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Despite all evidence to the contrary. It was about immigrants and terrorism. Trump will not satisfy his supporters on those issues.
The politics landscape will look very very different in three years. Hating brown people might not be such a thing- but we really do not know.
JI7
(89,241 posts)And they ran against openly free trade supporters of globalization.
So pro free trade candidates did the best in the rust belt.
KPN
(15,637 posts)
emulatorloo
(44,071 posts)and immigration. Those are the facts.
putitinD
(1,551 posts)True Dough
(17,255 posts)Some are insistent the election was "stolen." They recognize nothing else, other than the need to safeguard against hacking in the future.
Others argue that the Dems need to overhaul the party.
Then there's the middle ground -- where everyone should try to migrate -- that knows the Clinton campaign was hampered by Russian shenanigans but also recognizes that there are internal changes that could strengthen the party for 2018 and 2020. Both fronts need attention. To tell others who disagree to go join another forum doesn't bode well for the future.
elleng
(130,749 posts)'Then there's the middle ground -- where everyone should try to migrate. . .
To tell others who disagree to go join another forum doesn't bode well for the future.'
RKP5637
(67,088 posts)future. Democrats need to unite and move forward. We need to be one team, not a splintered team. It's getting difficult to know WTF we exactly are heading into, but we do know it's not going to be good.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)We don't need a major overhaul, we just need to get our economic message back near the center. We spend a lot of time on the poor, and the middle class gets a bit ignored. We can't afford to do that. Literally.
golfguru
(4,987 posts)real jobs with real wages are created for the middle class.
Voters are tired of messages and speeches.
Hillary is 10 times better speech maker any day, than the Orange game show host.
The 94 million Americans without jobs and millions more making piddly wages
in part time jobs are tired of promises and messages.
My conclusion is they have reached the end of road for hope and change.
The heart of problem with lack of enough middle class jobs is the ugly
foreign trade deficit. The orange man won because only he talked about it.
All his 16 republican opponents, experienced governors and senators lost
because they ignored it and pushed the cheap labor express. Their ultra rich donors demand it.
If Hillary had addressed the $800 Billion ANNUAL trade deficit, she wins in a landslide.
Our candidate in 2020 better learn this issue or else the orange man wins again.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)
golfguru
(4,987 posts)not orange. Trump's hair is definitely orange and that reflects into his face color.
elmac
(4,642 posts)will now find a detour to the sniffles bottomless pit where there is no unemployment benefits, no medicaid, no food stamps, no health care, no hope.
golfguru
(4,987 posts)somehow can improve the middle class jobs picture. An employed worker is not affected by unemployment benefits, medicaid, food stamps, and gets health insurance from most employers. Jobs, the 4 letter word, will determine the next election. If the jobs picture for middle class remains poor, Trump will be 1 termer, I can guarantee it.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)
JHan
(10,173 posts)And I think Hillary didn't raise it because she saw the logical pitfalls:
The EU has moved from a trade deficit to a surplus and is still losing manufacturing jobs.
China has a massive trade surplus and losing manufacturing jobs.
Since our manufacturing output is high, and job availability in the manufacturing sector is shrinking, the trade deficit has very little to do with it - yes we have experienced outsourcing but manufacturing jobs world wide- regardless of the presence of a deficit or surplus - are shrinking. The shrinkage is at a lesser pace in places where Unions are strong -. Lost in the debate is that we actually have a large service trade surplus - in excess of 200 billion a year - but we only talk about our trade deficit re goods which skews the debate and is misleading.
What I want our Politicians to do is come up with real solutions: We have to compete globally, and be ahead of the game which requires reform in our education system to compete optimally with a focus on R&D, business and advanced manufacturing - we don't need to neglect the humanities. Also important is creating alternative paths to prosperity - where a degree is not a necessiity and most importantly to my mind - we need to start the conversation about implementing a supplemental income - UBI (Universal Basic Income) : this doesn't have to result in a cut or shrinkage of the social safety net. So our focus needs to be growth, not the trade deficit.
Orange Man's arguments were talking points designed to push buttons , most of which - if we go by his business practices - ,he doesn't believe.
golfguru
(4,987 posts)Just think of some actual facts. Ford just built a brand new, automobile manufacturing facility for $3 Billion. Then imagine what $800 Billion EVERY fricking year can build. How many manufacturing plants, how much infrastructure we can build if that $800 Billion stayed in the country EVERY YEAR, YEAR AFTER YEAR.
JHan
(10,173 posts)It's all facts.
You didn't address my points either.
Further, what is the difference between outsourcing a production line outside the U.S and outsourcing a production line to automation?
Between 2000-2010, 5.6 million jobs were made redundant because of technology, we can't keep denying this because it throws a wrench in our world view.
If we on the left want to be the ones with the solutions we have stop pretending the data in front of us isn't saying what it is saying.
golfguru
(4,987 posts)between the expansion of manufacturing plants in China and the shrinkage of manufacturing plants in United States of America.
Yes, it is true that automation and robotics is killing repetitive easy to train jobs, such as assembly workers in mass production. But then compare number of manufacturing plants in China+Mexico 15 years ago versus in USA 15 years ago. The graph lines are parallel. I worked for 23 years in an industry which built automation machinery for automotive and appliance manufacturing. We were replacing assembly jobs, but adding higher paying jobs in our own industry. Between design, manufacturing, programming & maintenance of automation machinery, we required alots and lots of skilled people.
JHan
(10,173 posts)The claim originally made was that trade deficits were the key factor that caused job loss. This is not true.
China has a trade surplus and is experiencing shrinkage in manufacturing jobs.
This is a global phenomenon - and happening here in the face of productivity gains. We lead the world in advanced manufacturing and hi-tech. And what about the agricultural sector ?."U.S. agricultural exports have been larger than U.S. agricultural imports since 1960, generating a surplus in U.S. agricultural trade." - where does the deficit feature in that analysis?
The problem with just focusing on jobs is that we miss the inconvenient truth that our manufacturing output is incredibly high: We have become more effective at making and producing things because of technology. And we need to find solutions to counter this as manufacturing becomes more advanced, especially with 3D printing and even AI. The next thing to get hit is is the trucking industry- what are our plans for this fallout?
I prefer to leave Trump to his faulty arguments, he'll be found out soon enough. We don't have to parrot him and his habit of bungling the truth.
golfguru
(4,987 posts)Since I worked for multiple decades in design and manufacturing of automation equipment, I know first hand, better than most, that robots will not replace more than a small percentage of human labor. It has been 75 years since first robot was put into production , and worldwide manufacturing labor force is far bigger today than 75 years ago. But you are entitled to your beliefs. Good night.
JHan
(10,173 posts)Even Van Jones made the comment that manufacturing "jobs aren't coming back" because of technology.
Across the agricultural and manufacturing sector we are seeing a smaller percentage of the workforce employed to produce but an increase in value of output Manufacturing jobs have declined as a share of the economy. But manufacturing hasn't declined as an industry. It's grown. By a lot. Here's total industrial production (manufacturing, utilities, and mining output) indexed to 1945. Output has sextupled.I don't understand why we would ignore this. The same article explains the move to the services sector.
So it's not a matter of my "beliefs" - if the facts weren't staring me in the face, as it should any Democrat, I wouldn't be worried.
Of course Robots are not going to completely take over just yet but to ignore that technological advancements didn't have a significant impact on jobs is to just ignore reality.
And it's important we understand it and that our politicians are seen to understand it because bad policy is implemented if they don't, especially if they believe us too ignorant to know better.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)"There will always be plenty of work," they say. Maybe they can get a job watching the machine that replaced them.
--imm
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Since you say you like data why don't you try reading the article I posted about this in the OP. The Democrats are getting too goddamn cozy with the talking points of big corporations
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2015/04/29/dont-blame-the-robots-for-lost-manufacturing-jobs/
JHan
(10,173 posts)there are a couple of reasons Germany, for example, lost less jobs than we did, despite increased automation - note they also lost jobs but at a lesser pace. ( Btw Germany, Sweden and Korea are all strongly unionized)
The culture in Germany is different to ours - here, our business approach is to place too much stock in shareholder value, which is great for profit in the short term but terrible for sustained wealth creation. This culture permeates our approach in everything - and contributed to spending and lending habits and ultimately the crash..The problem in the U.S is that we don't invest in human capital, prioritising profit above all else. The two quotes here are from articles that explain it better than I could:
Illustrating Germany for contrast:
“ Germany set about enacting a range of comprehensive economic reforms to increase the competitiveness of Germany’s economy throughout the 2000s, including making its tax code more competitive, articulating The High-Tech Strategy for Germany, increasing investment in apprenticeship programs, increasing investment in its Fraunhofer network focusing on investments in industrially relevant applied R&D, and during the Great Recession introducing the Kurzarbeit (short-time work) program. Kurzarbeit helped German companies respond to the drop in global demand engendered by the Great Recession not by firing workers outright (as was too often the case in the United States), but by cutting their work to part-time and using the remaining time to retrain/reskill them (through a program collaboratively funded by German industry, labor unions, and state and federal governments) and so when global demand recovered German firms were fully staffed, and with a workforce reskilled to leverage the technologies and manufacturing processes of the future. And of course, Germany is not alone; many more of America’s competitors—including Japan, Korea, Holland, Taiwan, and even China—worked feverishly throughout the 2000s to bolster their science, technology, and innovation ecosystems that underpin the competitiveness and innovation potential of their private sector enterprises."
We didn't adopt much of those strategies. "Competitiveness at a crossroads" explains it all in detail:
http://www.hbs.edu/competitiveness/Documents/competitiveness-at-a-crossroads.pdf
"international firms became less invested in “the commons”—shared resources such as pools of skilled labor, supplier networks, an educated populace, andthe physical and technical infrastructure on which U.S. productivity and competitiveness depend."
This is where the elites failed - the problem wasn't Globalization , per se, but our rapacious, opportunistic response to it, and failure to mitigate its harmful effects, particularly on the middle class:
"How did America respond to pressure on its middle class? Unfortunately,our society did not mobilize to invest so that the middle class could compete in the global marketplace. Instead, America and Americans maintained an illusion of growing prosperity. Abetted by lenders and government institutions, consumers with stagnant incomes borrowed more to buy houses and fund consumption.
Government itself made unsustainable promises to the middle class, pledging to cover more healthcare expenses of future retirees, to employ more individuals in government jobs, and to pay generous pensions to many in the public sector, while reducing effective tax rates across the board between 1980 and 2010. These promises, coupled with a deep recession and two wars, have left government finances in a fragile state.
As debts and unfunded liabilities have risen, federal, state, and local government expenditures that support long-run growth in productivity and competitiveness—on items such as infrastructure, training, education, and basic research—have stagnated or fallen as a portion of GDP. Moreover, a resulting need to make tough, unpalatable choices has contributed to paralysis in our political process."
Addressing some of those harmful effects was all over the democratic platform this year - however protectionism and demonizing trade deals will not solve it - this is a management problem and a culture problem which requires creative solutions across the board - not demonizing trade deals, not pushing protectionism and acknowledging that the manufacturing sector is changing.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)At least perception-wise which is very important.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)or we are screwed. We focus a lot on the poor and little on the middle class, and we need to focus on both
NCDem777
(458 posts)move towards the center economically just means a kinder, gentler, version of more of the same crap. More trade deals that are corporate shopping lists. More bending over backwards to appease the Randians and the Alex Jones worshipers who will eat the centrists for lunch as always.
We need to move further left. Y'know. Be liberals.
KPN
(15,637 posts)seems bound and determined to perpetuate division unless all others demonstrate fealty to the status quo or accept their view of why WE lost. Frankly, I think most of the posters who are calling for some serious party introspection and change fall into the middle of the road category you describe. Many of the others left DU or were banished during or shortly after the primaries.
Then again, some of those folks seem to view returning to FDR era principles as an "overhaul".
realmirage
(2,117 posts)His policies are what made us great. It's not an overhaul to remember who the fuck we are.
emulatorloo
(44,071 posts)Ace Rothstein
(3,144 posts)We've gotten our assed kicked up and down the ballot across the country since 2010. Whatever we're doing clearly isn't working.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Arazi
(6,829 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)campaign was perfect and has no room for improvement. This is getting ridiculous.
My goal as a party would be to never lose to a jackass ever again.
OnionPatch
(6,169 posts)We absolutely have to safeguard and reform our election process and that needs to start today. Or rather, yesterday! But since there is less chance for a stolen election when your side has more support, I don't see how the Democratic Party can afford to be kicking anyone out of the tent at this point, either. Lately I'm seeing a lot of writing-off of this group or that around here. I find that depressing.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)
LonePirate
(13,408 posts)They aren't and anyone who thinks so is an idiot.
Let's pretend economic conditions exist for a factory to reopen or to rebuild in Blue Collar City, Ohio. The owner of that factory will automate as much as possible in order to reduce labor expenses. That's economic reality, not the fantasy that the jobs will return.
Nate says the jobs are not coming back: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/manufacturing-jobs-are-never-coming-back/
MIT says the jobs are not coming back: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/602869/manufacturing-jobs-arent-coming-back/
The Financial Times says technology is responsible for the jobs loss: https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-b7e6-11e6-ba85-95d1533d9a62
Fortune says automation is responsible for the job losses: http://fortune.com/2016/11/08/china-automation-jobs/
NPR did an interview with economist Michael Hicks and he says manufacturing jobs are lost mostly due to technology, not globalization: http://www.npr.org/2016/12/10/505079140/economist-says-manufacturing-job-loss-driven-by-advancing-technology-not-globali
Those jobs are never going to return due to technology/automation/robots and we should stop pretending that they will return.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)You didn't bother reading the link in my OP did you? Powerful corporations would be happy to hear that they've converted you
LonePirate
(13,408 posts)We're manufacturing more than ever before but doing so with fewer workers. Ask yourself, how exactly is that possible. When you determine the answer to that very easy question, let me know. You could also spend some time reading up on what Carrier is going to do with that tax windfall they just received. Hint: they are not going add more workers or give raises to existing ones.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)LonePirate
(13,408 posts)Not to mention the lack of an actual conclusion. I spent more time reading that one article than you did reading any of the several articles I posted because I am don't automatically dismiss reports I don't agree with, like you obviously do given the speed with which you responded with your "bad science" comment.
Has globalization contributed to job losses? Yes. Has modernization contributed to manufacturing job losses? Yes. However, it is modernization, not globalization, which will be the biggest driver of blue collar job losses in the next decade or two. Hail a ride from a driverless Uber car in San Francisco or Pittsburgh if you need assistance on figuring out why that is.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)at the data the link provided. It's not an "article," that I posted, it was data and logic. One of your links is from Fortune, a tool of the powerful. The rest don't measure up against the data I gave you
Squinch
(50,918 posts)article you linked to certainly doesn't acknowledge that.
Your article does not address mechanization. It only addresses robots. Jobs have been lost to mechanization and they aren't coming back. How many typists do you see in major companies these days? How many farmers are there now compared to years past before farming was mechanized? How many tellers are there compared to the days before ATMs?
To insist that jobs are not being lost to mechanization because you found a single article that limited itself to looking at jobs lost to robots is idiotic.
How we react to this fact will determine the political landscape of the next century.
KPN
(15,637 posts)I don't hear anyone here saying that. What I do hear is (1) a lot of people saying the party could have done a better job over the past 30+ years of sticking up for the middle class in a lot of ways -- including by doing a better job of protecting domestic jobs, supporting unions, etc., and (2) the party needs to make that change now -- do a better job representing and protecting middle class/working class interests. There are a lot of ways the party and democrats can do that. Simply educating people that jobs aren't coming back and talking about/proposing retraining and education has not been a winning strategy thus far.
One other thing: all of those sources are wrong. Some of those jobs could come back to the US. Many of those "far cheaper labor elsewhere" job losses are not easily automated. Seems to me that getting some jobs back is a lot better than being defeatist and just saying "oh, well, they're gone and aren't coming back anyway." Here's something: why is it we never hear our leaders talking about the role economic policy could play to offset corporate attraction to automation? I think its mindset.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)JHan
(10,173 posts)simply put: Productivity gains continue to rise, our exports are high yet the job market is shrinking.
you can pretend the reasons for this don't exist but I won't - our politicians have to take the lead and start talking about the effects of job scarcity in the manufacturing sector and the shifting sands of the job market.
If any manufacturing jobs do "come back" it won't be in greater number , and high tariffs will simply hurt all business.
Finding solutions to problems is not pretending those problems don't exist - WE HAVE TO TAKE THE LEAD ON THIS and start talking seriously about solutions like adopting a Universal Basic Income.
golfguru
(4,987 posts)
still_one
(92,061 posts)critical swing states.
In Wisconsin, Russ Feingold lost by a greater percentage than Hillary. Wisconsin reelected Scott Walker, Ron Johnson, and Paul Ryan multiple times. All of them made it very clear on their anti-Union, right to work support.
If every person who voted for Jill Stein, voted for Hillary, it would have made a difference in those critical swing states.
As to your point that "we are laying the groundwork for the next defeat". Perhaps you didn't notice, but those self-identified progressives who decided not to vote for Hillary in the critical swing states, also weren't there for the Democrats running for the Senate against the establishment, republican, incumbents, and the republicans now control all three branches of government. .Those actions have laid the groundwork for the next defeat
This election was a generational event, and it will take a long time to turn things around. It will need to be done at the local and state levels first.
skylucy
(3,737 posts)sarisataka
(18,498 posts)At the local and state level when instead of looking for States we can win we are only spending time listing the states we don't need to bother with because we will never win anyway? There seems to be little interest in getting anyone to change their Vote or appealing to those who did not vote this election.
LenaBaby61
(6,973 posts)And one which I totally agree with, especially this point:
"This election was a generational event, and it will take a long time to turn things around. It will need to be done at the local and state levels first."
Dems will be in the wilderness for a VERY long time unfortunately.
Cha
(296,868 posts)Strickland lost, too..
Thank you for your post, stillone
emulatorloo
(44,071 posts)
oasis
(49,333 posts)In baseball you trade for players who believe in putting the team first.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)oasis
(49,333 posts)That's how you get a winning combination. I'm all for anyone who works their way up using the team concept.
Those who try to insert their way of doing things can take a hike.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)I'm sure they'll all say yes. But that's not winning them the World Series is it? Only a fool would follow leaders who have a losing strategy without speaking up
oasis
(49,333 posts)The party has to identify those with ego driven agendas and eliminate then from all leadership positions.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)In baseball, those people get fired
oasis
(49,333 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)TheCowsCameHome
(40,167 posts)
Let's annoint someone early-on.
When will we ever learn
jalan48
(13,842 posts)Those who have a vested interest in keeping the Party the same blame others. It's about who has power within our Party.
still_one
(92,061 posts)Democrat running for Senate in the swing states lost to the establishment, incumbent republican?
Does that explain why those self-identified progressives who refused to vote for Hillary, weren't there for the Democrats running for Senate in the critical swing states?
realmirage
(2,117 posts)
kentuck
(111,052 posts)Two years from now, they will still be looking for change.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)still_one
(92,061 posts)Democrats running for Senate in the critical swing states
kentuck
(111,052 posts)It's doubtful that many Trump supporters would split their ticket and vote Democratic.
still_one
(92,061 posts)refused to vote for Hillary. Either they didn't vote, they didn't vote for the Senate Democrat, or they were deterred from voting.
In Michigan, Hillary lost by .3%. Jill Stein received 1.1% of the vote. Similar results in Wisconsin and other critical swing states.
Another factor which isn't discussed is the effect of the 2013 Supreme Court decision which struck down a key provision in the voters rights act.
14 states added new voting restrictions just in time for the 2016 election:
http://www.brennancenter.org/voting-restrictions-first-time-2016
North Carolina would have been included in that list, but last minute court rulings were able to get voters who had been removed from the voter registration list reinstated:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/north-carolina-naacp-voter-suppression_us_5817634fe4b064e1b4b385df
Problem in North Carolina was many of those voters did not realize they could vote in time.
Those voting restrictions which started in 2013, where not in place in 2008, and 2012, and they were definitely aimed at African Americans.
Losing the Presidency was bad enough, but losing the Senate was a disaster
Pabz
(4 posts)How long will the blame game continue? Have a long, hard look at the county by county election map...not the state election map.
HRC was rejected by the voters.
Figure out why.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)
MFM008
(19,803 posts)More than asshat.
Pabz
(4 posts)Have a LOOK at where the votes came from. It tells a story...
We get it that a couple of small asshat states get to usurp the majorities and install that pig in office to ruin our lives.
I still hope he drops dead.
still_one
(92,061 posts)for Senate lose against the establishment republican incumbent?
jfern
(5,204 posts)still_one
(92,061 posts)the critical swing states were the Establishment, Incumbent, republicans.
Russ Feingold and other Democrats in those swing states were quite progressive.
Russ Feingold was endorsed by Bernie, as was Zypher Teachout.
Katie McGinty, Deborah Ross and others in those swing states were also progressive, especially in regard to labor, minimum wage, etc.
What I am doing is pointing out that the OPs implied conclusion that we lost because we didn't "work and talk with fellow lefties" is simply wrong. The party did work with everyone, including those on the left. Minimum wage, and college debt and other issues were part of the platform.
In addition, the the majority of the Democratic Senate candidate were progressive
Russ Feingold lost by a larger percentage than Hillary. What happened was those self-identified progressives who voted for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson, if they also had voted for Russ Feingold, Russ would have won the Senate race in Wisconsin.
Similar patterns also hold in the other swing states.
jfern
(5,204 posts)still_one
(92,061 posts)ESTABLILSHMENT REPUBLCIANS INCUMBENTS WON in those states.
Zypher Teachout was the only one I mentioned not running for Senate as an aside because she ran on an agenda identical to Bernies
It was a disaster, and while some of it was most likely due to voter suppression based on the 14 states that introduced restrictive voting requirements, the fact is that enough self-identified progressives who refused to vote for Hillary, by either voting third party, write in, or not voting, appear that they were not particularly interested in a Democratic controlled Senate
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Tell us the "story", or continue to cower behind implication. Your choice. 
golfguru
(4,987 posts)During the 7 games of last World Series, Cubs were outscored by Indians if you count total runs scored.
But Cubs were declared the World Series champs. Because they won more games! Rules determine the winner, not anything else.
sarisataka
(18,498 posts)
Seriously, for all of the hand wringing about eleventh hour shenanigans, there were plenty of warning signs months ahead of the election that the pre-victory celebrating was on shaky ground.
Post-defeat most people and Democratic leadership are buying deeper into a narrative that the election was a done deal until it was stolen. Even people who tried urging caution before the election are forgetting their own warning to join the narrative.
Saddest of all, imo, is how many Democrats are acting out exactly as we predicted Trump voters would.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)That's what depresses me. We are supposed to be the party of grown ups
7962
(11,841 posts)Electors are getting death threats if they dont change their vote. Students are whining about just seeing a trump sign. All kinds of conspiracies are being posted as though they were factual. I see people on my side doing the exact same shit that everyone here has accused the other side of doing since Obama was elected the 1st time. But they say "but this is different...."
Your point is spot on. But youre going to get slammed for your opinion by many.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)I'm getting a lot of good responses in this thread so I am hopeful the Party can learn from this and win again
dionysus
(26,467 posts)MFM008
(19,803 posts)For the maggot or his minions...
We're not making excuses for losing. We didn't lose.
She won by 3 million votes.
This was theft, foreign interference, domestic interference, and lies and it will come out.
They win with bullying. Death threats. Threat of arms.
We lose by quivering and wetting ourselves and whining.
Maybe it is time for a revolution or even another civil war or cyber war or something.
In a maggots America the good guys LOSE.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)And yes, thenrepules.did.all you.listed, but we ALSO had a less than inspiring candidate, by the results.
It's not a binary world. We lose NOTHING, we actually IMPROVE, by acknowledging mustakes and correcting them. This is so silly.
MFM008
(19,803 posts)I also cant help it if a bunch of meat heads that would duct themselves into their barns
werent inspired and voted to bring on Night of the Living Dead.
The results are STILL 3 million MORE votes than his.
Now maybe that brings the Hillary haters and damn democrats with faint praise crowd
joy, but in all probability my mom will lose her insurance and she will die.
What do you "learn" from this?
How is this an improvement?
How is her life or mine or my sons or brothers or sisters and many others who will most likely lose our health insurance qualify as a "good lesson".
Sorry its so silly to you and im glad you were able to vote against HRC to "show" us who WERE inspired
our what for.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)It's not my fault we lost. It's not my fault the campaign failed to generate excitement outside the base. It's sure as hell not my fault we elected a disaster as a president.
It's rather pathetic that you guys are tearing to shreds anyone who points out that mistakes were made which did not alone cause, but contibuted to, defeat in an election we should have had in the bag.
How dare you put words in my mouth that i don't care about the suffering this will cause. You're afraid your mom might die because of this and you want to put that on me?! I've voted democratic since my first vote, for bill in 96.
If you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend everything was done right in this campaign, go right ahead. That method of thinking will get the asshole re-elected. But try and do so without putting words in other peoples mouths, would ya?
TygrBright
(20,755 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 20, 2016, 01:19 PM - Edit history (1)
Coming into this thread just to be insulting and then quickly leaving is bad for the site, and partly why I come here less often
sheshe2
(83,655 posts)I have in the past asked people to stick to the OP before. However I would never be so rude.
64. Address the OP and quit trolling
realmirage
(2,117 posts)sheshe2
(83,655 posts)Calling one a troll is hide able offence. It is a not nice here. No, I will not alert yet suggest you adjust your tone. We all get people we disagree with on our threads, it is normal and many times out of control, yet DO NOT call them a troll, realmirage. If you can't take the heat get out of the fire.
In time here, if you make some friends you will have people that will take your back if they approve your message.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Not a word to the person who snidely implied that he was a concern troll because he actually thinks we're not a perfect party at the moment, yet you jump straight on him for being honest in return.
Pathetic. And feel free to alert on this if you feel the need.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)Mind your own business next time and stop helping others attack me
realmirage
(2,117 posts)sheshe2
(83,655 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)I'm not someone who sticks with losing strategies.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Therefore, we need to do whatever we can to lose the three million plus extra voters we have, by pandering to the deplorables; tell our AA voters and minority voters and women voters to eat shit and stfu and not piss off the real americans who can only win on a technicality. Yes. We should be beaten, FLOGGED, get out the cat o nine tails and start flagellating ourselves! Because if we cannot get people who believe in things that are completely contrary to actual reality to see shit our way, then we are the ones who are fucked up, not them.
Yes. I know. Those rural voters mean so damn fucking much more than us silly city dwelling blacks and brown and women and muslim and normal white folks who be chilling and stuff, those of us who want the best for all americans, we suck balls, they are way more important than us and we better start lying our asses off to get their votes. Yes. I see it clearly now.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Fantasy - the electoral college doesn't exist and we won
Reality - we have the electoral college, it's not going anywhere unfortunately
Fantasy - to tweak our message we have to become racists and throw out all the great things about our party
Reality - we can retool our economic message for the middle class and hopefully win back the rust belt
Fantasy - we can tell all rural voters "fuck you"
Reality - we need rural voters as well as urban voters to win, and we don't win by telling rural voters "fuck you"
Fantasy - all rural voters are stupid and racist
Reality - we want to say that rather than admit we could have done something better to win
bravenak
(34,648 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)and we actually GO to the states and talk to those people and make them think we actually know they exist. Do you think rural voters are a bunch of idiot racists and that we have to drive through their towns dressed in sheets to get votes? They are just PEOPLE and they are usually, like most people, mostly concerned with economic issues. Obama won TWICE. Let's figure out how to get more of that and less of the shit we just got on nov 8
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You got crickets from that one, bravenak.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I guess I made my point.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Because I've gone over it several times now, and the only reference I can see is to the 'report author' and various other media commentators and analysts linking it to Trump winning. I'm not actually seeing any statistics or polling about actual normal people and their voting tendencies.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Kentonio
(4,377 posts)HassleCat
(6,409 posts)People will always give you a rough ride for asking them to challenge their preconceived notions. We are only welcomes in our party if we endorse the way things are.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)them to question things. Instead it motivates them to attack people like me who dare to ask questions about why we lost and fight for a winning strategy
dionysus
(26,467 posts)
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)Productive forces will not allow those jobs to come back.
zentrum
(9,865 posts)Bernie and Keith Ellison are busy rebuilding the party. They're already running candidates for local offices. This is the kind of grass roots methodical take over that the Repubs started 30 years ago and now they dominate the State Houses. Not to mention the 3 branches of Government.
Bernie is organizing for the future. Let's stay engaged.
madville
(7,404 posts)DWS was always in the bag for Clinton and then the Brazile debate question controversy didn't help either.
treestar
(82,383 posts)based on nothing. He just threw it out there.
Our claims have to do with information the CIA found.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)If not, it's all just a bunch of excuses and the sort of shit republicans were saying before nov 8
treestar
(82,383 posts)It's still being investigated!
Orange Hitler said it only because he thought he would lose at that time and he had nothing other than it had to be rigged if he'd lose. His ego, nothing else.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)We need to start thinking about how we're going to retool our game and win next time
treestar
(82,383 posts)enough to be worth looking into. Nobody starts an investigation where nothing is suspected at all. (Unless you are Hillary Clinton). Orange Jerk had NOTHING. Nothing but his ego. He just put it out there based on nothing.
kcr
(15,315 posts)I don't understand why we're supposed to shove our heads in the sand and ignore all that. That makes no sense. The world doesn't work like you and all the rightwingers think it does. It's not samesies! Otherwise any criminal could just proclaim that someone did the same thing to them, right before actually doing the crime, then use that as a defense in the court of law. It wouldn't fly then, either. Because not the same. Or someone could falsely claim their spouse cheated before actually cheating on them, and then declare a Samesies! Neener neener! You can't accuse me now! That's exactly what Trump tried to pull, like some twisted defense shield.
crazycatlady
(4,492 posts)Different username as I forgot the password. I used to post as tabbycat31
This election has brought me back to this forum. In the time since I've posted, I've reflected a lot about the state of Democratic politics, and myself for that matter.
What needs to happen.
1) Develop a strong party apparatus in every county in the country. If rural counties do not form their own, then they should do a joint effort with a 'sister' county. Make sure that all seats in nonpartisan races are contested (easier to pick up red seats when the candidates don't run under a party banner)
2) Connect with voters where they are. Send candidates to grocery stores to talk to voters.
3) Don't make social issues such as bathroom bills be your be all end all. People are hurting economically due to structural changes that started when I was a baby (I'm 36) and there's candidates talking about bathrooms. This makes people see Democrats as divorced from reality.
4) 2020 ticket needs to ignore the northeast (I say this as someone who grew up in Hillary Clinton territory) and the west coat. I'd love to see Roy Cooper/Amy Klobuchar (but jury's still out on him).
5) I'm convinced we need to elect a woman as VP before President (please no Sarah). That way the 'deplorables' have some getting used to.
6) All candidates need to pretend every mike is hot. We can't afford another gaffe like the deplorables or guns and religion.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)And welcome back, even though I am relatively new myself.
phylny
(8,368 posts)- Candidates cannot denigrate each other in the primaries.
- Find firearms-neutral candidates (I hate guns, have no use for them, but the NRA had a field day advertising against Hillary in my area).
- Don't stoop to the level of our opponents. Have a clear message, learn how to respond to questions with a false premise (when Chris Wallace asked about "late-term abortions" she should have immediately explained that there is no such thing).
- Take out billboards - BIG ONES - with short messages about registering to vote and a phone number where people can be sure they're registered before the election. I saw video of people on line at the DMV on ELECTION DAY trying to get an ID or license.
- Take out more billboards with simple messages about what a Democratic-led Congress can do for the area.
- Resort to fax machines or encrypted, password protected email for really sensitive data.
crazycatlady
(4,492 posts)As a cord-cutter, a TV ad does nothing to me. At this point, the millennial vote is needed and you want to reach them on their phones.
I saw political banner ads on my weather app (granted for a district I couldn't vote in-- i was in WA State when I saw a CO congressional ad). Target geographically though.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)An excellent summation.
My thoughts on the Democratic loss (and it was a loss by the Democrats, it was not a GOP Win and those are two different things) are a bit different but you did good.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)Without a healthy look in the mirror by the DNC (which I do not believe is happening as of yet or perhaps will not at all) there will be no hope for any change and change is precisely what is needed within the party. They have to inspire people to vote for them by giving them a good reason to do so, beyond "Gee the Other Guy is Really, Really Bad".
Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)Fix what's broken and get back to winning damn elections. And not just for POTUS. We need to retake the House & Senate, and flip GOP control in state legislatures and governorships.
Losers make excuses. Winners assume power. I'll be damned if I'm going to be a victim.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)nailed it
CousinIT
(9,225 posts)....you just defined the double standard that is and always has been the downfall of Democrats. They ARE held to a MUCH higher ethical standard than Republicans.
JUST LOOK at all the crap SHitler has done or refused to do or that he is involved in and ask yourself what would happen if he was a Democrat? The gov't would be shut down. It would be on the TV 24 x 7 x 365. There would be investigations out the ass. NO WAY would that person E V E R make it into the Oval office.
We have laws. We have a constitution. We have what we consider treason and impeachable offenses. Trump has violated EVERY ONE OF THOSE THINGS. As a candidate and as a candidate-elect. Yet ... NOTHING is done, and NOTHING will be done.
DOUBLE. STANDARD.
So to answer your question: "So we're supposed to believe that the weekly Trump scandals were all ineffective but this one letter from Comey convinced hundreds of thousands of people to change their vote at the last minute or stay home?"
YEP. Because that's the double standard and the pro-GOP corprat propaganda at work and that has been at work here in the US for DECADES. HRC was DEMONIZED by the corporate media while everything nasty-ass thing Trump did or said and every law or ethical standard he violated went unmentioned. And still does.
I keep hearing "Oh he'll be impeached." or "he's violating the constitution" or "he did or said blah and that's against the law"
SO. WHAT.
Because NOBODY IS GOING TO DO ANYTHING TO HIM. Laws, constitutions, ethics, morals, treasonous acts, impeachable acts -- NONE of that apply to Donald Trump.
NOBODY will stop him. E V E R. No matter WHAT he does. The laws and norms simply do not apply to Republicans. At all. They ONLY apply to Democrats and the rest of us commoners.
So...yea. There's that.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)And you know who stops him? We do - by WINNING MORE VOTES. I'm saying we need to figure out how to do that rather than sticking with the same exact strategy we just lost with, unless we want 8 years of this shit instead of 4
CousinIT
(9,225 posts)and another thread worth reading about how Trump "won" when he's so utterly flawed:
https://twitter.com/cshirky/status/756569741020377088
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Putting the coming installation of Trump & the resulting disaster - things which have most likely been in the works for many years - at the feet of Hillary Clinton & the Democrats isn't any different than claiming a rape victim wouldn't have been raped if only they hadn't dressed so provocatively, or if only they'd found Jesus, if only they hadn't been so promiscuous, if only..., if only..., if only.... All excuses to distract for the real issue.
And it's ALL FUCKING BULLSHIT!! America was attacked! Trump & the GOP were complicit in it! The only real defeat would be to refuse to acknowledge their actions and to dismantle the party that won the Presidential contest by 3 million votes.
The Democrats message isn't the problem. The ongoing criminal coup is.
Ace Rothstein
(3,144 posts)Stop focusing on one office so much when we're getting our assed kicked outside of deep blue states.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)You're not focusing on the CRIMES THAT WERE COMMITTED.
We could do any sort of outreach you can imagine, and spend millions on advertising to get our message out. But it wouldn't matter if the party leadership is getting their emails hacked by a foreign power, our supporters are being purged from voter rolls, and our votes aren't counted in those red states.
shadowmayor
(1,325 posts)Always. Whenever an organization is failing, the American tendency is to always blame the workers. The reverse is the truth - it's always management decisions that destroy organizations or reduce effectiveness. I posted this earlier in a response to the hacking issue: Hillary didn't lose at all, the goddamned election was stolen. Again! We've seen this before and yet nothing has been done to fix this problem by our leadership (management) -
Let's take a look at Michigan:
Trump wins with ~ 10,000 more votes. The crosscheck block purged ~ 450,000 votes. 75,000 votes in the Detroit area weren't even counted. Not even counted!
And now we're going after each other and crying about outside issues. Bernie cost us the election, the media was all in for tRump, Putin hacked and stole the election, the friggin' FBI ruined our chances. All seem plausible, but the fact remains there were enough votes cast to defeat tRump.
And yet - the Democrats still don't know how to fight for these votes. Think we've done all we can? Imagine if the tables were turned and the republicans knew they had a majority of the votes, yet these votes were being blocked by the democrats? They would be having a shit-fit and the teams of lawyers attacking the state halls would be vast. The other side wouldn't put up with this kind of bullshit for a nano-second if the democrats were doing it to them.
Bottom line - HRC not only won the popular count, she won the election too. And just like 2000 and 2004, the DNC and the rest of our feckless spineless leadership line up in a circular firing squad and shoot each other.
Hillary didn't lose - this election was stolen. The 5th time in my life the repukes have stolen the Presidency - Nixon, Reagan, Bush (twice) and now STFU Donnie. Sometimes it's goddamned hard to be a democrat. I expect to get crapped on by the other side, but like Charlie Brown, we keep trying to kick that football to no avail; only to find out that Lucy is a democrat.
democrank
(11,085 posts)Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by about 2.8 million votes....check.
Not all manufacturing jobs will return....check.
We've won the White House before with establishment candidates....check.
Some Trump voters are racists....check.
James Comey didn't help Hillary Clinton one bit....check.
However, aside from this presidential election,
Democrats lost control of the House.
Democrats lost control of the Senate.
Democrats lost some governorships.
Obviously we need more support than we have now. So, something has to change
unless we're content being, for the most part, a party supported by the coasts.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)what happened.
All this stuff about Russians, Bernie bros and Comey is just a cloud of denial.
The reason why accepting what happened gives us a great chance to make gains in 2018 and blow it out in 2020 is in your post. Trump won because at least half of his program was old-fashioned Dem.
All we have to do is get serious about the basic historical precepts of our party, and we'll be winning again.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)We need to get back to the basics of what we stand for - economic and social justice for the poor and middle class. BOTH ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL
McKim
(2,412 posts)As a person who came from the working class, I could see the defeat coming like slow freight train wreck. I cringed seeing Hillary dressed in brightly colored silk suits and expensive big jewelry. I also cringed at seeing John Kerry wearing that pumpkin colored LLBean barn jacket in Colorado when a jeans jacket would have carried the day. Image matters. What's wrong with wearing a sober business suit and sitting down with real people at their kitchen tables in Wisconsin? She was having dinner with George Clooney instead. I think she did not spend enough time talking with real people and did not have a focus group of real working class people. I am not going to let this happen again. Come the new year, I will start working hard and donating to my local dems and also donating to that Dem fund to take back some state houses. The gift I bring is I know how the working class thinks and talks and I can communicate.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)I have nothing to really add, you said it just right
Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)2018 looks like a bloodbath for Democrats. Some still think triangulation, being GOP lite, sucking up to corporate America, running Blue Dogs and abandoning the New Deal and the Great Society ideals we have held for decades is a winning strategy.
The results are in. 11 out of the last 19 election cycles. 12 out of 20 if you count the 1978 midterm elections. . .15 out of the last 25 if you go back to 1968.
Democrats are all but shut out of most State Governor's Mansions and State Houses.
When people have a choice between Republican Lite and the Real Republican, they vote for the real Republican. That's the fact.
Until the Democrats realize that, we're dead in the water. Your post is spot on. . .sadly too many here think winning a primary election is more important. And if they lose the general, it was the fault of the primary election.
Until it's principle over party instead of party over principle, we are doomed as a party.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)BRToldschool
(8 posts)Honestly, for a somewhat throwaway statement, I think the "deplorables" thing, from Clinton, said a lot about how the party (planners, thinkers, rank and file) has kind of wandered off the path. We cannot claim to have anyone's best interests at heart, if we delight in hurling pejoratives at them. That (for a long time now) has been the sort of behavior (in Republicans and conservatives) we claim to loathe! Yet our top person (for the 2016 season) mimicked that behavior with jaw-dropping nonchalance. Because she was comfortable with it. We've all gotten too comfortable with it. It's time to stop being comfortable lowering ourselves to the Republicans' level. They win, we lose. Michelle Obama famously said, they go low, we go high. But we too often fail to live up to this inspired motto.
azmom
(5,208 posts)Was a bad idea. They were useless, and, I believe, only served to build resentment towards the party.
taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)You're so awesome... the rest of us make excuses and refuse to self examine. Your post is condescending bullshit.
The Liberal Lion
(1,414 posts)I had become a member of this site just to reply to this post. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? There is no compromise to be had. No matter how "flawed" of a candidate Hillary may have been (I personally found her no more "flawed" than any other traditional politician) she still wasn't a fascist. Have you forgotten that the republicans had other legitimate and competent choices, John Kasich for one. During the primary is was clear and apparent just what trump represented, and it was disgusting then. it's even more disgusting now. And they still cheer for him, some of them even going so far to him him "messiah". How do you suppose we educate these people? How do you suppose we find common ground with this? No i disagree with you completely. I say so many thought that it would be inconceivable that Trump would have a chance that they decided to just sit the election out. No, hand wringing and tail between one's leg-ism is NOT how we regain political office in this country. Being a force of resistance, doing everything possible to deligetimize this abomination daily is how. But we won't have to work that hard as that Orange imposter will do most of the work himself. All we have to do is stay firm, uncompromising in our principles, and sit back and watch it all burn to the ground. And if we have to lose every single office in this country because we will not yield not one single inch, then so be it. How much better to be a moral victor, than to debase one self for the vanity of political office alone. Hang tough my fellow comrade. things are going to get bad. Put some steel in your spine and strengthen up those knees. You're going to need it.
Midwestern Democrat
(806 posts)and coastal areas. Until the party's willing to face up to that, its current difficulties will never be fixed.
BRToldschool
(8 posts)Having lived rural and urban, my unhappy suspicion is that too many urban Democrats simply don't think the world beyond their metropolitan enclaves, matters. The un-city is where deplorables live. The un-city is dying. The un-city doesn't exist. Only, it does. We know this, because the un-city went for Trump. In many cases, holding its nose. Because Hillary Clinton (like so many of us) bought into the concept of ascendant, permanent urban demographic majority. And she told the un-city that the un-city isn't important. The un-city is past its expiration date. A very nice, very alluring theory. For urbanites. But still a theory. Obviously, the theory did not fit the reality.
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)That Believe things the Spitted Owl ruling was the end of the logging industry, The "un-city" would deny a woman's right to choose. The "un-city" tend toward whiteness in the worst possible sense. It's not that the "un-city doesn't matter or exist, it's that they are often unreachable single issue voters that believe RW bullshit.
And there are plenty of urbam deplorables. Trump appeals to the worst in human nature, to the ill-informed, the ignorant. To cast a vote for that motherfucker, took embracing or compromising with biogtry, misogyny and stupidity. Far too many of us were fooled into thinking we were better that that--despite the signs from the primary on that for far too many of us -- we aren't
And you are completely wring about how Hillary ran her campaign. There was a reason she wasn't running around filling stadiums--that wasn't part of the strategy. She met with many smaller venues all over the country.
Hillary didn't lose so much as hate--or the hateful-- won.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)It's a mix of pitiful, infuriating, and frustrating to see.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Guess what, those rust belt jobs AREN'T coming back. Neither are coal mining jobs.
I keep hearing this hand-wringing from those who think we did not properly engage working class anxiety, but here's the truth:
They WANT to be lied to. Or more accurately, they want to believe the lies. They want to believe that the world they think was so great (it's always some hazy past a generation or so ago) can come back if we just change a couple policies. But the real truth is that that world is gone. And that includes the fact that the assumed superior access of white people (white heterosexual men, specifically) to good paying working class jobs is slipping away. They want their position in society guaranteed by systemic racism.
I am not willing to play that game. I would rather lose than compete to be the biggest liar to the white working class.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)It can be difficult to see the difference between the studied and continuing analysis of after-action-reports and a "refusal to learn." When you become aware of the distinction, I'll allow you and your Sunday school absolutism a wee bit more credibility.
disillusioned73
(2,872 posts)Great post..
..
deist99
(122 posts)I think your analysis is spot on as far as we are not looking at this right. We keep saying she won the popular vote without looking at the fact that she got 48% of the vote and he got 47%. In a race where it shouldn't have even been close. She was by far the more qualified candidate. And he was recorded saying he grabs them by the pussy.
I think if she would have run against Cruz or Bush it would have been a landslide for republicans. I think we really underestimated the dislike and outright hatred for her.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)We knew the rules going in and now we want to change them because we lost, rather than find out why blue states turned red
NeoConsSuck
(2,544 posts)I know there are many on this discussion board that have been 'ripping you a new one' because you had the audacity to see the problem was the Democratic leadership and/or the candidate.
And today, Obama is also being blasted on this board because he had the audacity to say it was our fault for ignoring a wide swath of the voting population.
But it is so much easier to not look inward, and instead blame:
Rural Voters
White men
White women
FBI
Russians
Racism
Misogyny
Rust Belt
Bernie Sanders
Progressives (Jackpine Radicals)
Jill Stein
Wikileaks
Julian Assange
And on and on....
If we don't look inward, we're looking at EIGHT years of Trump. Guaranteed.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Great rant! The Haves will completely ignore it and those that kiss the Haves ass will be upset by your worlds. Screw em, they refuse to be part of the solution.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Joe941
(2,848 posts)There are very few people wanting to learn from the loss and instead you hear things like: we didn't lose because we won the popular vote. Or Russia cost us the election - which they contributed, but how about the lax security which allowed Russia to interfere?!? Anyway it's excuse, excuse, excuse instead of what do we need to change so these things don't happen next time.
Maybe now is not the time - we are still in the denial or anger stages of grief.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)our Party. If I saw it waking up from this loss, learning, and becoming a Party that makes us feel strong and inspired again... but this excuses shit is depressing
Ace Rothstein
(3,144 posts)There is a large or loud contingent here hellbent on continuing to lose.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)I don't watch tv news at all. Nothing but unhealthy junk
IronLionZion
(45,380 posts)so they look down at voters as being stupid and worthless. Those DUers often live in a nice privileged bubble and don't have to experience much hate crimes or lose their health insurance/Medicare or face job discrimination.
I saw this meme:
American Fascist: Your going to the camps!
American Liberal, Chuckling: You're
https://twitter.com/WarrenIsDead/status/810200372505677825
realmirage
(2,117 posts)because I can't afford it. I'm right on the line of making too much money to get help, but too little to buy it. Yet I'll be paying a penalty I can't afford. Many people are in this same situation. But if you point it out you get no sympathy here. No wonder we lose elections! We don't listen to the middle class anymore. Democrats say "fuck you, globalization is the new reality" and they forget that we're the party that is supposed to fight for working people, not parrot the talking points of the powerful corporations
IronLionZion
(45,380 posts)Some blue states have set up their own state programs to help close the gaps in affordability.
I know the feeling. I had no income or health insurance for a good chunk of this year and frequently thought some person somewhere is probably worrying there might be some gluten in their expensive grass fed organic dinner.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)
lapucelle
(18,187 posts)HassleCat
(6,409 posts)There is no consideration given to the possibility that some of them voted for us, or that some who voted for the other guy were motivated by anything other than pure racism. "Screw them! They're not good enough to vote for us."
realmirage
(2,117 posts)As if we can win without some of the white male vote, and as if any person who voted for Trump is a racist. That is utter insanity. We always get SOME rural vote and some rural white vote, and it seems like some Democrats' plan around here is to alienate ALL rural voters and kill our Party off once and for all
