Kos does the 2016 Post-Mortem exactly wrong.

[appal_jack]

Daily Kos Founder Gleefully Celebrates Coal Miners Losing Health Insurance

Daily Kos publisher and Vox Media co-founder Markos “Kos” Moulitsas, an influential voice in liberal politics, published a blog post (Daily Kos, 12/12/16) that captures just how terribly leading Democratic pundits are taking Hillary Clinton’s unexpected defeat. In the wake of this loss, some of the more hardcore Clinton partisans have chosen, in lieu of self-examination and internal criticism, to simply lash out at the voters they failed to win over.

With the punitive glee of a medieval executioner, Moulitsas proclaimed: “Be Happy for Coal Miners Losing Their Health Insurance. They’re Getting Exactly What They Voted For”:

For example, why should we weep for the retired coal miners who will now lose their health insurance thanks to the GOP majority—despite the best efforts of coal-state Democrats to change the outcome?
Yes, this will be a terrible outcome for a group of people who have really drawn a shitty lot in life. But how sorry should we be for this crowd? Coal country swung hard for Donald Trump, winning 70 to 80 percent of the vote in some of these counties.

So a major voice in liberal media is now not only morally justifying millions of working people losing their health insurance, but actually insisting we be “happy” for it? Moulitsas went on to evoke a classic right-wing dictum about people getting the democracy they deserve:

Don’t weep for these coal miners, now abandoned by their GOP patrons. They are getting exactly the government that they voted for. Democrats can no longer offer unrequited love and cover for them. And isn’t this what democracy is all about? They won the election! This is what they wanted!

I agree with the FAIR reporter (Adam Johnson) here. Punching downward should never be a part of any Democratic action, post-mortem or otherwise. The Appalachian coal communities are facing water supplies as polluted, economic prospects as degraded, and educational opportunities as lacking as any other oppressed community in the nation: black, white, or otherwise. Maybe we need simplistic sound bites and brash charisma to reach parts of Appalachia, because nuanced policy gets drowned out. That's on us: until better critical thinking skills are part of what every middle schooler learns, we need both policy and charisma.

A few more good paragraphs at source: http://fair.org/home/daily-kos-founder-gleefully-celebrates-coal-miners-losing-health-insurance/

-app

[JCanete]

1. wow, fucking a. That really is horrible optics, and makes my stomach a little ill. nt

[asuhornets]

2. He got it right in my opinion. They voted for tRump-this is what they get for their vote..

If Democrats were to save their health insurance-how will those coal miners repay the Democrats-by not voting for them --that's how.

[Va Lefty]

4. I agree. They voted for Comrade casino so now their getting what was promised.

Well, the rest of us are fucked too and I'm supposed to feel sorry for them? Screw them!

[JCanete]

9. Its an inhumane thing to say about people who are going to suffer, which

is totally reminiscent of people on the right who could give a shit about people who lost their shirts for being "stupid" for trying to live the american dream and buy a house. "Didn't they know better? Couldn't they see the writing on the wall? It's just economic darwinism."

People are ignorant, that is truth. But people are rarely willfully ignorant in a culture that doesn't promote such a state; doesn't tell them that that is the way to be, that they are justified in living in their "common sense bubble." If our culture promoted education, and hell, still provided a decent one, and a decent media, maybe people wouldn't be so ignorant. But you want to get some satisfaction form THEIR suffering because they voted against their own best interests.

Not only was the article distasteful, it is the kind of actual evidence, not made up shit, that right-wing media will point to to paint us on the left as intolerant and hateful. Sadly, it won't be far enough from the truth. It muddies the waters, and for what?

[asuhornets]

10. Who cares what the right-wing media says? They have no shame.

And those coal mine voters are responsible for doing their own research to make sure they vote for the right candidate-but they continue to put repugs in office. They are voting their cultural interests--not economic interests. I wish no ill will on anyone. But they need to stop looking at the presidential election as a game- election have severe consequences and they and we are about to find that out. I voted the right way. those type of voters love to say they want someone to "shake things up" what does that mean?

[JCanete]

12. I care about what we say!

I care about our actual message of intolerance undercutting our differences between us and the right-wing to people who are new to politics, or are going to have their preconceptions reinforced, not with easy to disassemble bullshit, but with actual fact.

If you want them to be better, more informed, more compassionate voters, then find some patience and compassion for them. Don't give them excuses to retreat into the welcoming fold of other people who are ignorant, and the powers-that-be who are perpetuating and exploiting that ignorance. Like it or not, when we do that, it makes us part of the problem and not the solution.

We are fighting a rigged game and those people are being gamed. Lets not also be gamed. Lets fight the fucking prosthelytizers rather than the protheletyzed already.

[asuhornets]

14. The people that you want Democrats to appeal to would not vote for a Democrat

to save their lives-literally. They are a loss cause. Democrats should appeal to the other half of the country that did not vote. You mean to tell me that those voters in West Virginia did not see the difference between Hillary and Trump?

[JCanete]

15. I'm not talking about appealing to them as voters...I'm talking about appealing to them as humans

who are not so different from you and me. They are governed by the same forces. You are wrong that if they truly understood the ramifications of their votes, foremost to themselves, they would not go out of their way to inflict this kind of self harm. If they understood how they were being used by republicans with race bating and gay bashing, etc., they would not so willingly be used.

You talk about them as if they are literally a different species, but they aren't. Focus on the system that has created their bubble rather than the people stuck within it. It is never something I want to do, to make a decision about who is a lost cause. That is the kind of thing that justifies not helping people in inner cities..."yeah, they got a bad shake, but it looks like its too late for them. maybe their children have hope." This shit actually gets said.

[asuhornets]

18. Your words: If they understood how they were being used by republicans with race bating and gay bash

I believe they know what is going on and how the Republicans take advantage of their votes, but the republicans speak their language, i.e. coded words. There are certain situations that are so ingrained in people's mindset it would be very difficult to get them to change their mind. They hated Obama with a passion, but they hated Hillary more. Both of those two were their best hope. But they preferred Trump who said he is going to get rid of Obamacare.

[JCanete]

24. you think they understand that republicans are just manipulating them into voting on bigotry

so that they can screw them on economics? You actually think they are that clear eyed, yet so principled when it comes to maintaining their racist heritage that they are okay with it? Are you missing the fact that people are taught to hate people of color on various grounds, but that one of the key ingredients is the lie that those groups are destroying their livelihoods, robbing them their tax dollars for welfare and stealing their jobs?

No, if they truly understood, they would not be voting against their own economic security and the futures of their children.

[asuhornets]

39. We are talking about Adults, not children..Why do they need to be coddled? nt

[stevenleser]

62. Well and succinctly put! nt

[appal_jack]

26. I'm sure that the nonvoting percentage in WV is around 50% (or more).

Laughing about loss of health coverage, no matter whether they voted or not, will not bring them into the Democratic fold.

-app

[kacekwl]

27. Well I'm going to suffer too.

Who's going to cuddle me and rub my little head because some racist self hating group of idiots fell for the crap trump was spewing. Yes racist and yes idiots.

[JCanete]

30. yes you are, and any kind of eye for an eye mentality will make the world go blind...ooh

Last edited Sat Dec 17, 2016, 11:33 AM - Edit history (1)

I should totally coin that...

it isn't about coddling them, its about continuing to see their humanity even when it's hard to do, not just for them, but for all of our sakes.

[kacekwl]

34. An eye for an eye is

doing to them What they did to me. Problem is they did it to themselves. I don't believe the forgive them for they know not what they have done. They know and didn't give a fuck .

[Yurovsky]

17. They didn't all vote for Trump...

hell, some of them may not have voted at all. But that shouldn't make them unworthy of your compassion one way or the other. I will never spit upon the less fortunate and sneer "they got what they deserve"... sounds like the kind of thing a Republican would say.

[asuhornets]

19. Oh they have my compassion. and I hope Trump keeps Obamacare for their sake and many others..

[JCanete]

21. Well they don't have Moulitsa's, and you said he got it right, thus the confusion. nt

[asuhornets]

40. He did get it right...they made the decision as adults..I won't hold their hand..nt

[JCanete]

50. Why not? Because if you are ignorant by the time you are an adult, its your fault entirely so

"fuck you for being stupid?"

What is so magical about the crossover from child to adult that makes you think people are suddenly endowed with wisdom and the ability to think that society did not nurture and provide when they were children?

At least admit to me this. The way right wingers withhold compassion for people, often minorities, who have gone to prison, or people who have lost their houses, or people who have contracted aids, isn't so different from the way you are talking about people who voted against their own best interests. Why are they wrong and you are right?

[asuhornets]

51. The people who vote against their interest have a right to do so. That's on them..

It is not my job to explain to them that fact. As far as going to prison, do not commit the crime and you will not do the time--period.
I'm 46, no kids, have a job and don't qualify for any government assistance, but I vote for politicians who fight for food stamps, housing for the poor, etc-although I do not qualify for any of it. Why can't those people in these very red states who need healthcare do the same? They don't-they vote for Trump when he said he will end all of the that if given a chance.

[JCanete]

63. What they do affects us and vice versa. It seems like we have a stake in helping people to look at

the world through a different lens.

But where do you think common decency comes from anyway? Where do you think a sense of what is good and right and wrong comes from? Are you born with it? Does God imbue you with it, or as the case may be, not?

I'm sorry but it just isn't the case that morality is a universal quality. It is about cultural norms and cultural consciousness. You only need to look at different cultures today, or the historical evolution of morals over time to know this. You can blame people for being people, set yourself apart as better and morally superior, but the truth is you had entirely different experiences and influences that shaped your consciousness, yet you want to hold other people to your standards, and let them reap the whirlwind for their mistakes.

That you would actually look at swaths of people that are incarcerated because they have been cut out of the American dream and have turned to crime, often non-violent, as people deserving what they get, astonishes me here in DU.

When you start to perceive people as bad or deficient in some way, you obfuscate the actual forces that are driving our culture in the wrong direction, and you make it harder to see and address those forces in favor of feeding some narrative need to pin all our problems on some other...some villain...

I say that whole fixation is part of the problem, and if we're going to do it on both sides, then nobody is leading the way.

[Yurovsky]

66. Well stated...

writing off millions who've made a mistake - whether it's breaking the law or voting for Trump - isn't going to help the party regain power.

Look how many counties ObamaCare carried that went Trump... these are not bad people. They're people in a bad situation who made a bad choice, much the same as millions of people behind bars.

I always thought we were the party of compassion.

[asuhornets]

67. I agree with some of what you are saying. But i think the first step..

is convincing those people that elections have consequences. When I vote I don't pick the candidate that has said the most outrageous comments- I stay away from them. And I listen to what they are saying-literally. If Hillary said she would get rid of Obamacare- I would not have voted for her-eventhough I don't need Obama Care.

So how should I view people who continuously vote for people who want to get rid of the safety net?

What can be done to help the coal miners who voted for billionaire Trump?

What did they have in common with Trump?

Why did Hillary beat Obama in West Virginia?

Why did Bernie beat Hillary in West Virginia?

[kacekwl]

36. Why do you assume they

are less fortunate ?

[asuhornets]

55. It's Republicans who are trying to take their healthcare away...

[ananda]

31. Yeah, it defies logic.

But when reptile brains are working, all there is
is hate and fear.

[totodeinhere]

53. A lot of people were taken in by Trump's false propaganda. But I am not

advocating that any American regardless of whom they voted for lose their health insurance. Health care is a basic human right period.

[asuhornets]

54. Neither am I...nt

[LexVegas]

3. Fuck 'em. nt

[hellofromreddit]

45. That's not going to us earn very many votes.

[stevenleser]

5. Ultimately a voter is responsible for their vote. BTW it isnt a boolean concept.

It's possible for all of a flawed candidate, bad campaign and bad voting choices to all be true and any variation thereof.

If I am voting to put 10,000 nuclear weapons and a 17 trillion dollar economy in someone's hands, I think my responsibility is pretty high in terms of making sure this person is the best of the bunch running.

I'm not likely to buy any argument where the voter is absolved of doing due diligence about that.

Now, it's not politically correct to blame the voter for making bad choices, but the voter has the highest level of responsibility.

The candidate and party obviously also have responsibilities.

[JCanete]

7. Ultimately people make mistakes. All the time. Actually, I thought we were the party that said

we aren't going to stop loving people when they've made mistakes. I thought we were the party that believed in rehabilitation of prisoners for instance, even those who have committed horrible acts.

I thought we were the party that recognized society's role in human behaviors. Instead, everybody is personally 100% responsible for what they do right, like when a teen out of high-school who knows shit about finances and interest rates, etc. is offered a credit card by big banks. Fuck the kid. He made his own bed. Like when people who see no alternative get into further debt by using payday loans. "What are you people stupid? You can go fuck yourselves too."

People make mistakes because they don't understand things about the world, and you think they should be held highly accountable for that ignorance, which is the result of the systematic dumbing down of the American people from education to media, all in the service of selling them on one thing or another that is going to make somebody a buck.

Villainizing or disposing of people because they are "stupid" is what people on the right do so easily. I hate to see that kind of thing in our circles.

[stevenleser]

11. Who said stop loving or calling them stupid? I just said they are responsible.

People make mistakes or do bad things for various reasons.

[JCanete]

13. but you are essentially putting things outside of their current understanding on their shoulders,

in response to an article that says we shouldn't mourn for these miners.

It's like saying a person who submitted to leeching as a cure for a disease in a time when that was accepted "science" was ultimately responsible for not knowing better. We have to change the science for these people. They are not in a bubble entirely of their own making. It has been engineered. Don't hate the played, hate the game. hehe...

[stevenleser]

16. No, everything was within their ability to understand had they tried. It's not like your example

of undiscovered science at all.

[JCanete]

20. Why would they try? People of authority who they have always trusted are giving them the answers.

So yes, it is the same.

If that is your process, then we can blame everybody who has gotten screwed by our system in some way. You can't pick and choose who the people are who are responsible for bad decisions and who the people are who were misinformed, manipulated or tricked into them. You are basically saying, "well there's an internet...its all out there..."

So all the ways in which our society prays on ignorance, produces and perpetuates it is really neither here nor there. People have a head on their shoulders, they have bootstraps, or should goddamn it(if they don't its their own damn fault), and thank God we live in the USofA where we have freedom and real choice. Fine print was invented for people who are too lazy and deserve to get screwed right?

[Crunchy Frog]

41. Getting rid of people's health coverage wasn't exactly in the fine print.

It kind of got blared from the rooftops.

I don't say the deserve to get screwed, but I do say that they knowingly voted for it. Or did they think it was only going to affect blacks and "libs"?

[JCanete]

49. but ACA is a mixed bag and hard to understand. It is being sold as people's premiums going through

the roof, and some people did feel large rate hikes. We created in such a way, getting our foot in the door so-to-speak, that the republicans were going to be able to point to its negatives, and that some people were actually going to feel those negatives.

Some of these states, if I'm not wrong, have not been very helpful in supporting these benefits either as far as I remember, but don't hold me to that. I'll have to go and do some research. But if that is the case, ACA may not be even functioning as intended in some of these places.

[treestar]

57. That's what they thought

I agree with whoever said if this country was all white, we'd have the biggest social safety net in the West. They really think they are hard working and entitled to tax deductions and credits and any government help. It's the blacks and the libs who aren't.

[treestar]

56. the right wingers are always going on about

personal responsibility, claiming that the less fortunate don't have it and that's why they are the less fortunate. So why is it so much to ask them to take personal responsibility for how they voted? When they lose their health care, what is wrong with showing them they voted for that to happen to them? How else will they learn?

[JCanete]

64. Holy shit. You literally want to take a Republican position just because it hurts people that are

fooled by those Republican positions? They will not learn through more strife and ignorance.It will only make it easier to lie to them about the reasons for their suffering.

The enlightenment didn't come out of hunger and poverty now did it? Christianity did, which brought some good but also ushered in some horrible fucking power stuff, like future Crusades and old testament shit.

The right wingers are on about it because it is a message that already appeals to their not so Christian Christian roots, and apparently this sort of thing appeals very well here too, right at DU. That all of us think adopting this kind of rhetoric and opinion of our fellow man is both righteous and beneficial for the greater good, is certainly not a good sign that we are headed for better times.

[madinmaryland]

59. Thank you, Steven. It is the responsibility of the people to understand what and who

they are voting for. Pointing out the obvious should not be a sin, even though some here think it is.

It is a responsibility I take very seriously. If others don't take it seriously, then shame on them.

[Fast Walker 52]

6. Adam Johnson is a dick... and there was nothing wrong with that DKos article

I say he's a dick because he blocked me on twitter for posting some very mild comment about one of his tweets. Totally bizarre. I used to like him and lost respect for him.

Another one is David Sirota-- very much in a similar mode as Johnson politically, and he blocked me on twitter after I challenged some of his anti-Clinton posts.

[aidbo]

8. As some Bernie supporters are learning, no one likes..

..an 'I-Told-You-So'.

Even when they actually did tell you so.

[duffyduff]

23. Because the explanation by some Sanders supporters isn't true.

And Sanders was not a viable candidate for president.

End of story.

[aidbo]

29. Must be nice to be so sure.

[liquid diamond]

65. Right.

He couldn't even win a primary, but that doesn't stop his zealots from fantasizing.

[duffyduff]

22. Kos is right. Fair is wrong. n/t

[JCanete]

25. Fight hate with hate! Now we're cooking with gas!

[kcr]

37. Sorry. People who take away health insurance deserve every bit of hate they get.

Just because they were too stupid to realize they're going to lose it themselves makes no difference. People who want to beat up on those who will lose their health insurance and have every right to blame those who are responsible are being assholes. They probably aren't going to be affected themselves and can afford to feel righteous.

[JCanete]

48. MLK said that right? You certainly quote from the best. nt

[appal_jack]

32. You are wrong, and FAIR is fair. nt

[Charles Bukowski]

28. We can show compassion for these coal miners

while pointing out that they are colossal dumbfucks for voting Trump. We shouldn't "be happy" over their plight, but they should never forget that they asked for this. Maybe, just maybe, it will knock some sense into a few of them.

Either way, playing fair and playing nice has gotten the Democrats nowhere and we need to get tougher with our message.

[appal_jack]

33. Next time around, I want a candidate who can...

Last edited Fri Dec 16, 2016, 10:19 PM - Edit history (1)

Next time around, I want a candidate who can attract at least a few Trump voters who have seen the errors of their past choices, plus many of those who did not vote in 2016 at all. Such a charismatic, progressive, and Democratic candidate would also have to retain or preferably increase turnout among traditionally Democratic voters as well.

Calling anyone 'colossal dumbfucks' would not move the needle toward this goal one bit. Instead, it will alienate potential Democratic votes. I'm not suggesting that we adopt a single Republican position, nor do I think that we need to hide core values such as civil rights, etc. I'm just suggesting we not insult the people we want to join our coalition. Yet on this thread, too many DU'ers are saying, "No, I prefer to join Kos in flinging insults at voters." Why!?!

-app

[Crunchy Frog]

35. I have kind of mixed feelings on this.

My reaction also depends on what Markos's actual role is in the Democratic Party. Is he officially a part of the Democratic Party, or does he officially speak for it in any way, or is he simply a prominent private blogger whose views and interests largely coincide with those of the party?

Obviously, if he was speaking on behalf of the party, in any capacity, then it was absolutely wrong. If he's simply a private blogger venting his post election feelings, then I don't have a problem with it, so long as both he and the party make it clear that he's not speaking on their behalf.

I share many of his thoughts and feelings on this. These are people who have repeatedly shat their own nests, and have allowed their hate and bigotry to override thei own interests. I would not say that if I held any sort of position in the Democratic Party, but I don't, and I'm only representing my own personal opinion.

I wish those people nothing but the best. Above all, I wish them sufficient enlightenment to begin voting their interests over their hate.

(Sorry if this is a little meandering and long winded, but I'm sick today, and kind of out of it).

[resistance2016]

38. Republicans are the ENEMY.

They WANT you dead. They WANT me dead.
WHY do I owe them sympathy? THEY NEVER GAVE ME ANY GODDAMN SYMPATHY. NONE.

[Tatiana]

42. I completely agree with Kos. These people need a natural consequence.

Last edited Sat Dec 17, 2016, 12:51 AM - Edit history (1)

They felt free to vote for a moron and threat to democracy like Trump because they thought they would never be touched, only those **insert any minority group here**.

The optics don't look nice but the results will. When they are fighting for their very lives, Trump and the Republicans won't look so hot and they will be more likely to vote Democratic. Grayson's words have never been more true: the Republican health care plan is for people to wait to die. Let's stop sugarcoating things and preach the truth.

[JI7]

43. they thought it would only be taken away from "those people"

[coolbreeze77]

44. I kind of see what Kos is saying. Things have to get worse before they get better. that's why I'm

not scared We're back in 2001 only with a much dumber version of bush. Good news is that we're the sleeping majority and the main reason we lost is that our people didn't turn out but trump is going to awaken the sleeping giant for us. We just need to build a movement in the mean time.

[Starry Messenger]

46. Do those coal miners care that I'm losing my ACA health coverage?

I know people will be too cowardly to answer this, everyone is so wrapped up that people in CA are teh coastal elite. But fuck me, right?

[HoneyBadger]

47. When they go low, we go high

Is the message to send

[HeartachesNhangovers]

52. Not every coal miner in WV voted Republican ...

But it looks like Mr. Moulitsas is trying to make sure they do in the future.

Who would you hate more, the people who cut your benefits to save money, or the ones who went out of their way to laugh at your plight? Hard to say.

[treestar]

58. seriously ?

I don't know why they expect not to be laughed at. Being laughed at is worse than being sick without treatment? And they call us crybabies and snowflakes and buttercup.

[HeartachesNhangovers]

61. Absolutely. I've been laid-off before from a

money-losing company. I didn't resent that because I knew it was just business. But if I'd found out somebody was gloating over the fact that I was out of work - basically just being purely spiteful, and to a national audience no less - I'd remember that a long, long time.

[mvd]

60. I just can't feel any joy in people losing health insurance

I feel more sadness about the stupidity of their votes.

[former9thward]

68. No one lost any health insurance.

Congress extended the program for 120 days into the new year and let the new Congress take up the issue next year. Kos or whoever is flat out wrong.