Which group of reliable democrats are YOU willing to lose to get White Men to vote Democratic?

[bravenak]

I see many people here don't think it is racist to vote for racist policies, nor that it is sexist to vote for a man who bullies women and judges them by looks and whether he deems them sexually exciting to him personally.

These same folks rail against 'identity politics' while they moan and lament us not focusing enough attention on people who are identified by their whiteness. Which is identity politics.

Since we actually won more voters, and won the working class, tell me, which group of Democrats are you willing to harm and dogwhistle on in order to win back the votes of rural white males who find that 'build the wall' 'deport muslims' 'mexicans are rapists' and 'lock her up!' are slogans that are appealing to their psyche.

Who are you planning to shut up and shut down in order to appeal to their need to break down political correctness?

Let us blacks, hispanics, ethnic minorities, lgbtq, and atheists and other assorted unwanted segments know so we can find someplace to be when the shit hits the fan. Because I will not be assisting the party in trying to get back a group that left us when my grandmama got the right to vote and my mama got the right to go to school with her white relatives.


So which group should we throw under the bus to get those oh so special white men back?

13 votes, 17 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Blacks
	1 (8%)
	Women
	0 (0%)
	Hispanics
	0 (0%)
	Muslims
	0 (0%)
	LGBTQ
	0 (0%)
	Asians
	0 (0%)
	Native Americans
	0 (0%)
	White People who are disgusted by racism and sexism
	0 (0%)
	Citified people
	1 (8%)
	Other
	11 (85%)
	17 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[mcar]

1. Happy to rec this

People seem to forget that the EC was decided by 100,000 votes in 3 states combined. Acting like this is more than sexism, racism and sheer stupidity makes no sense.

[bravenak]

7. Or like we cannot get 100000 more votes after four years of donald

YES WE CAN

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

222. Whoah, Trump/Manson matchup is uncanny.

Trump has hurt more people than Manson ever did, but he's sneakier about it.

[bravenak]

224. Creepy as hell huh?

[deurbano]

44. Can't some liberal billionaires relocate a couple hundred thousand Democratic voters to where they

are needed? Like develop some planned, progressive communities... maybe retirement communities or something... that are very attractive, and then subsidize relocation from Blue areas that can afford to lose some voters? Just an idea...

[LisaM]

50. No kidding.

And 300,000 people were thrown off the voter rolls in Wisconsin alone!!!

[Ken Burch]

2. Excuse me, but NOBODY here thinks its NOT racist

"to vote for racist policies" or that it isn't sexist to "vote for a man who bullies women".

And nobody here has called on the party to abandon people of color, women, LGBTQ people or athiests.

[Renew Deal]

4. There are people here advocating abandoning one group or another.

That's what the OP is about.

[EffieBlack]

161. Embracing Trump supporters is, by definition, an abandonment of minority Democrats

Why is it so difficult for you to understand this? When black and brown voters are jumping up and down saying, "NO NO NO!!! We don't want them in our party because the only way to get them to join the party is to kick us to the curb because WE'RE THE REASON THEY DON'T VOTE DEMOCRATIC!""

We know what we're talking about. We've lived it and continue to live it every day. But you ignore us and tell us to "stop being so divisive" and insist that you're going to walk away from us, go to the other side, talk bigots into joining our party, and then bring them back into our party and force us to jockey with them for our place at the table we built and set.

You don't listen to us. You whitesplain to us. You tell us we don't know what we're talking about. And you demand that we make room for people who not only don't care about us but have demonstrated that they are perfectly fine stepping all over us. Do you really think that, if you draw them into the Democratic Party, they will happily share power with US? You think the people who voted for DONALD TRUMP will willingly join forces with the very people he demonized to get their vote?

So please, just stop with that foolishness. We don't go for it.

[heaven05]

184. those are privileged

people you are trying to get to understand truth of minority living in a racist society that they don't have to live. Every time some pig shoots an unarmed black person, the 'usual suspects' come out with intellectual BS and rationalizations on why that black person is dead at the hands of a usually racist cop. They even did it with an 11 year old playing in a park that was gunned down because some hateful person called on the kid in the park threatening white people with a gun.

But the point is they are always here 'splainin the complexities involved in white racism and behavior, to people who have to live it every day and now will be living with racism on steroids, when its a pretty simple proposition as to why racist hate AA and voted for the potusfuhrer-in-waiting. The want ameriKKKa white again and when they crossover to this party, they will want it all white or majority white again, as in Dixiecrat days, as some in our party seem to advocate. Don't even sweat em, they will remain as they are. People ready to throw AA and MOST brown skin 'others' under the bannon bus wheels. You see none of these naysayers are saying anything about the chief strategist/white nationalist/supremacist of the trumpfuhrer's upcoming administration because they can't see him as the danger we know him as, to ALL PoC. David the POS duke....not a word about the trumpfuhrer accepting his hate as a positive in getting trumpfuhrer votes.

[heaven05]

181. yes they are

period. In a humiliating loss like this, many people are calling for embracing the racists and throwing others under the bus, permanently to make our party all inclusive for the oh so whipped and pained white male who just had to vote for a fucking racist because they were in such pain with all these immigrants, AA, independent women, Muslims, gays around them, just taking space, jobs, from ....who?. Geez, all those people have caused so much pain for the dixiecrats. Get real.

[sfwriter]

21. Where?

I've seen lots of people who think we can do both. I missed discussion of abandoning these core democratic groups. Please show a few.

[el_bryanto]

25. Could you provide a link to people recommending that? That would be reprehensible. nt

[Ken Burch]

109. I've now heard of few people who have made bigoted comments and suggestions.

Those specific people deserve whatever they get.

And their comments should be put in a distinct and separate category from those who are simply calling for a more explicit economic justice message-a group of people who share the same anti-bigotry commitment everyone else on this site holds.

[melman]

146. You'll be waiting a long time

Obviously there are none to link to, the OP is just doing what the OP does. Same tired game as always.

[mcar]

19. People here are certainly doing that, Ken

Thread after thread about how we have to abandon "identity politics," whatever TF that is, and focus only on the plight of the poor, downtrodden white man.

Again, 100,000 votes in 3 states combined. Does the Democratic party have to do some soul searching? Of course. But these calls to abandon who we are and embrace hate? I don't think so.

[Ken Burch]

29. What's being said is that we need to address class in addition to bigotry.

Nobody here is saying that any of our core supporters should be ignored or silenced. And even though Bernie should never have given that particular speech in the form that he gave it in, even he wasn't saying to abandon anyone.

Why is there this assumption that we can talk about "social justice" OR "economic justice", "race/gender/sexual orientation" OR "class"? Why can't we address both? That's what "intersectionality" is about, isn't it?

A lot of us see this as a question of turning non-voters INTO voters..not of leaving anybody out in the cold.

What needs to be said to establish trust on these questions?

[mcar]

32. Yes, let's walk and chew gum at the same time

HRC had a strong economic message to help the working class. The Trump voters in that group ignored it to vote for a sexist, racist sociopath. And we all will pay the price for decades to come.

How do you reach people who continually vote against their own self interest? The information was out there. They made the choice to ignore it.

[LostOne4Ever]

84. And she didn't really try to sell the economic message at all

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#009999]All I saw during the election were ads saying Trump was unfit and lacked the temperament to lead.

Not a single one did I see on my TV about protecting and bringing jobs back. You can have the best product in the world, but if you don't advertise it people won't know.

Hillary didn't advertise her economic agenda enough and allowed everyone to paint her as pro-Nafta and pro-TPP. Her comments about coal miners and her pick of Tim Kaine as VP made her look very pro-free trade when working class people blamed those policies for costing them their jobs didn't do her any favors either.

The people aren't just going to come to you, you got to take it to the people.[/font]

[EffieBlack]

162. Do you really not get it?

The only way the people who voted for Donald Trump - who has made very clear that his goal is to ignore and silence us - will come over to the Democratic party is if we are ignored and silenced. Period.

This idea that you can bring people who are ok with Donald Trump being president, people who lined up with the Ku Klux Klan and Nazis, into our party and everyone is going to co-exist happily is naive and best and craven at worst. It's not going to happen.

Why do you continue to ignore what black and brown people are telling you? YOU know so much more about race and racism and politics than we - who have been dealing with it all our lives?

Hell, the very fact that you are so insistent on ignoring us in these conversations about strategy is proof positive that you will ignore us once you get a critical mass of white Trump supporters back into the party. If you can't respect our opinion now, why should we have any reason to respect it once we make room for the bigots? If you are so quick to defend bigots against us when they're over in the Trump camp and we're here with you, I have every reason to expect you to defend them against us when they're in our tent.

[Ken Burch]

174. In that case, it can be about making non-voters into voters.

I agree with you that nobody should do a "you were right to be a bigot" pitch to anybody.

[bravenak]

182. We need fewer than a hundred thousand more votes in swing states to win next time

We can get that just by concentrating on our own base and getting those who felt discouraged out to vote.

[Ken Burch]

189. We're not that far apart.

Look, I don't want us trying to appeal to outright racists and I condemn anybody who does. In a few months to a couple of years, though, those people who voted some other way on alienation/shake up the system grounds, as opposed to racism(even though theirt alienation caused them, clearly to vote for a hate-based candidate), are going to be disillusioned and realize they were played.

Is there no way at all you could envision us saying, rather than "come back, we agree that you are right to hate people different from you" something more like "you need somewhere else to go. You just got reminded that hate won't help you. If you'll stand with us, we'll stand with you"? I think that is what most of us are talking about-not endorsing anyone's bigotry, not giving any sort of hatred a pass.

Obviously we must never pull back from speaking out against bigotry.

[bravenak]

192. No reason to waste your energy trying to reason with insanity

The only thing that works on them is being personally affected by Trump in someway. As Trump begins facing pressure fromcritics on Jobs, The Wall, his campaign promises, healthcare fears, the tide will begin to turn and those disaffected Dems will regret not showing up and quite a few who wanted to shake up the system to the point that they used Trump as a grenade, they will also regret their choice.


They are not interested in standing with us or working with us. Don't be weak. We are right and we got more votes. Let's cater to our base and find a way to bring Trump down to the point that he loses his mind. It's already happening.

[Ken Burch]

196. Well, I hope so.

The man is an experienced demagogue.

[bravenak]

198. He sure is. But not a politician.

He has no clue how things work

[mcar]

233. This has been all over today

(Shameless plug for my own OP) http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512636659

It proves the point we are making: people didn't vote based on the economy or trade. They either voted to keep "that woman" out of the WH, or they are delusional. Can anyone say with a straight face that these people are not stupid?

[RBInMaine]

31. My god, who the hell is saying "embrace hate"? This needs to STOP.

[mcar]

33. I live in rural RW Florida

I've seen it.

[Lithos]

156. That is not what is being said

People who state that are wanting to be more inclusive, not less. And they feel the core vision was lost in identity politics. Speaking in terms of class (99%) and core issues (jobs, healthcare, environment) would be more effective than the hodge podge approach we are taking with just identity politics which has gaps and leaves large groups of people behind. They are not talking "or", they are talking "and".

[Ken Burch]

202. I agree with those who say we should find a different term than "identity politics".

I would have phrased the lines in Bernie's speech, the speech that seems to have set a lot of this off, in words more like this:

"Representation of historically powerless groups is a justifiable goal, a goal we should fight for.

But such representation, in and of itself, isn't enough.

If you have a diverse group of people who all share a corporate-centrist-insider sense of life, who identify with the few rather than the many, is the physical appearance of diversity in such a group all that important?

We need representation from below, from people with, an visceral, personal connection to powerlessness, rather than simply having a diverse-looking elite.

And we need to represent the ideas that have been excluded as well as the people who have been left out-the idea of the common good, the idea that people matter as much as profit, the idea that we shouldn't only do those things that will make someone rich if they're done".

I wonder if, had it been phrased that way, we would be having a better conversation than the one we're having now.

[EffieBlack]

160. Actually, plenty of people do

And are twisting themselves into knots whitesplaining to us why we must shut up and stop criticizing the racists who put Donald Trump into the White House because we might offend them so much that they won't vote for liberal Democrats in the future.

[Ken Burch]

175. I'm not ever going to tell you to not attack racists.

Last edited Thu Dec 1, 2016, 03:35 PM - Edit history (1)

And I condemn anybody who does say that.

[Renew Deal]

3. That's not the choice

You don't have to choose between groups. You have to have a plan for a better life for all of them.

[bravenak]

5. They don't care about policies that promote a better life for all

They care about controlling women, shutting liberals up and deporting muslims and mexicans.

[Renew Deal]

10. We care about a better life for all

We can't control what they do. We can control what we do.

[bravenak]

11. And our policies already promote that

[Renew Deal]

17. Thats not the choice you're offering

[bravenak]

20. They dont CARE what I offer

Thats the issue. Trump had no policy. He had slogans. We only need 100000 more votes in swing states. We can get them after they see shit is worse with Trump. We just need candidates without so much baggage.

[TygrBright]

53. And "All Lives Matter" too.... n/t

[rzemanfl]

6. We don't have to get ALL white men. Just about 14% of them.

I suggest not throwing anyone under the bus, but instead using sports tickets, t-shirts/hats with slogans, bribed ministers, free alcohol, and blatant lies to win white men over like Republicans would.

[bravenak]

9. We just need 150000 more votes than last time in certain states

[rzemanfl]

18. Dumbasses in hopelessly red states would feel neglected.

On second thought, the hell with them.

[SomethingNew]

8. I chose other.

I'm willing lose the people who think it is an either/or proposition.

[progressoid]

12. Wtf. Is this strawman week?

[bravenak]

15. Yes

[Squinch]

52. That's not a strawman. You go after the votes of the troglodites who were willing to

put an admitted and proven racist and sexist in the White House, and you will never win the votes of woman and people of color again. And the GOP is getting ready to jettison those with pre-existing conditions and seniors too.

So no. It's not a strawman.

[mythology]

86. Well considering that multiple requests have been made to verify that people here are

asking for that, and none have been provided, yes it absolutely is a strawman and a simplistic one at that. Some people have higher expectations that that.

[progressoid]

167. +1

Thanks

[LonePirate]

13. Where is the "None of the above" option?

[bravenak]

16. That is other

[jalan48]

22. Democratic Party Internal Struggle for Power?

The size of the pie is limited so.........

[bravenak]

23. The same folks are still in the same positions as usual

[jalan48]

26. That could change with more "Identity Politics". No?

[bravenak]

35. Targeting people of white identity is NOT identity politics?

[jalan48]

43. No-white people are not an "Identity" group currently.

They are the dominant political group in the country.

[bravenak]

48. White is an identity if black is an identity

Unless you are saying that race is only worth dealing with when it is concerning the white race because they outnumber the rest of us here?

[jalan48]

56. What does dealing with race have to do with it? Why do we have to "lose" a group?

The goal of our Party should be to fairly represent all groups in our Party (proportionally by number if possible). Minority groups do have a stronger sense of "Identity" as they exist within a larger non-minority group. It's a group dynamic. We can't control what happens in the Republican Party-we can only try and make our Party as inclusive and fair as possible. Castigating and blaming white people serves no purpose at all other than to divide people.

[bravenak]

62. You are the one that seems annoyed by identity politics

[jalan48]

69. Not annoyed-I don't think it's an effective strategy. This election was a good example.

Do you believe in proportional representation in our party? How do you identify racist white people? What should we do about racist non-white people?

[bravenak]

71. But you don't mind white identity politics, because to you white is just a political status. Got it!

[jalan48]

78. What is white identity politics?

Do you think all white people think alike? Do POC tend to vote more as block (identity) than white people?

[bravenak]

81. What is it? It is the standard of american politics. White centered politics.

[jalan48]

87. What is "white centered politics"? Do you think it's happening in our Party?

[bravenak]

89. The republican party is a white centered party

That is why white people are there in such high percentages and why the rest of us are not. Their rhetoric is crafted to excite white nationalism. Some in our party want to end focusing on minority issues and focus more on white people. We already have one party that does that.

[jalan48]

98. I agree with what you say about Republicans.

As I said, I think proportional representation is the way to go in our Party. I could be wrong, but I don't think the Democratic Party is going to become a white nationalist one. If it does I would think most of us will leave it. I don't know who wants to end the focus on minority issues, I don't. We need programs that enable people to move up-education, jobs, etc. If the need is greater in one community more than another then we need to allocate more resources to those communities more in need. Personally, I'd like to see more money going to social programs than to our bloated defense budget.

[bravenak]

99. I think our voters were depressed by the non stop positive focus on Donald and the constant

FBI email bullshit. We just need a break from power so the electorate remembers why they donnot trust Republicans to run things. No matter how much they try to blame everything Trump does on Democrats, it won't work when the shit is hitting the fan and they are holding the bag.

I just wanted to demonstrate that the focus on people who never vote for us is not going to work. We'd have to change our ideology. Better to have a charismatic candidate who does not have alot of baggage next time. And we can whip up anger against Trump in the meantime to help us in the midterms. We have the right policy. We need Trump to do exactly what we expect. Fail.

[jalan48]

107. The media handed the election to Trump. Personally, I don't think it was all because of ratings.

I don't think we have to focus on these people, but we have to at least talk to them and give them our pitch. We might be surprised at the number of people who will join us. I believe at the end of the day most all of us want the same thing for ourselves and our families, regardless of our race. Talking to them does not mean we are OK with racism, ever. Obama is not only black, he he is also smart, charismatic and a great orator. He won areas of the country Clinton lost because of his abilities I think. He probably would have won a third term if he had been able to run.

Trump failing works for me. We are all in this together.

[bravenak]

108. Yep, we do have to give them our pitch

And boy will we have plenty to say during midterms! Republicans are on defense and they hate it.

[Grey Lemercier]

148. Trump used white identity politics with a shit tonne of overt racism

and dog whistles. Whiteness as both the dominant default culture AND as an exclusionary, oft-times supremacist stance is every bit as identity politics as reaching out to it victims.

When we minorities hear "Identiy politics is a losing strategy" or "We need to reach out to poor rural whites" and empathise or pander for their vote, we are far more than intelligent enough to see the bus we are being tossed under. It's a code for the continuation of the narrative of disempowerment and marginalisation of PoC, immigrants, LGBTQ, women, etc.

[etherealtruth]

24. tRump won the white male vote by appealing to racism, sexism, xenophobia, anti-semitism ...

I want no part of a party that actively believes one group of people is more important or more deserving than another group.

I didn't hear or see a racist/ sexist (and the rest) message in Clinton's (or the democrats campaign) .... The democratic campaign was one of equality and opportunity for all ... I did hear and see the racist/ sexist/ xenophobic/ anti semitic (and on and on) message in the tRump campaign .... his message was pretty clear .... white Christian guys deserve "opportunity" above all others ... trump voters heard the mssage and embraced it.

[bravenak]

36. Me neither. I also will not participate in that. And I always vote

[NCTraveler]

27. Far too many aren't aware of how wide spread...

Racist tendencies are across the country.

A big part of white privilege is being able to live in ambivalence to the systemic racism in society and the damage from it. Many of them are insulated. That alone often creates an environment of enablers. If you enable racism I'm not giving you a pass because you are uneducated due to insulation(privilege).

[yallerdawg]

28. I don't do polls..

without fava beans and a nice chianti.

But I agree with you 110%!

[RBInMaine]

30. You totally and completely miss the point. Many voted for Trump who are NOT "racist." Your thinking

is entirely and completely SKEWED. We are talking about winning BACK people we once had, many of whom voted for OBAMA! Are they racist too? Please, enough of the simple-minded thinking.

[bravenak]

37. Who voted to deport muslims and mexicans and are not racist?

[Red Oak]

38. How are the elections since 2008 going for you?

You must be doing something right!

[bravenak]

41. My state got gay marriage and legal weed since 08

It's red but we are fighting our battles and not giving up

[JHan]

226. And yet they were okay with voting for a Man who campaigned on a racist xenophobic platform..

for whatever reason, they were okay with voting for a demagogue.

[BlueMTexpat]

229. If they voted for a racist,

they ARE racist - just not blatantly in their own lives.

[quaker bill]

34. None, nor is it necessary

[Red Oak]

39. This is a BS post that just continues to tear the Democratic party apart

Does the OP really think that going from the Third Way to a more left leaning platform that includes a larger economic element and is taken to the public by someone not getting $250,000 per Wall Street speech and not claiming the TPP is a gold standard is now a class war?

You may continue your rant now...

Have your sad and then let's get to work.

[Dem2]

40. Fortunately, it doesn't work that way

Or at least it shouldn't, but I do understand the frustration in your post.

[democrank]

42. Maybe you like the looks of the red/blue post-election map, but I don't.

That map tells me we have a lot of work to do in reaching red state voters and citizens who see no reason to even vote. Saying we want to gain support of citizens not included in the groups we support with "identity politics", is not racist.

I don't know your age, but I've been a voting Democrat for more than five decades. My people are the working poor, the same people who protested against the wars in Vietnam and Iraq, marched in favor of civil rights and women's rights.

To name a few, we can certainly work to gain support from Native Americans and Hispanic Americans at the same time we support gay Americans and unemployed factory workers....black or white. We need to do more than appeal (for the most part) to people on the coasts.

[bravenak]

46. So who are you willing to give up to appeal to rural white men?

Because the rhetoric that appeals to them turns off our base. So, how do you get them without throwing somebody under the bus? They stopped voting democratic after civil rights was passed fifty years ago, we have not really won white men since I was born in the eighties.

So, how do you get them without losing people like me? Stop focusing on minority concerns and only discuss economics? That might get you a few of them, but I wont be around to see it.

See, because concentrating on white people IS in fact IDENTITY POLITICS. It is just the same identity politics this nation has been practising since it started. Rural white republican viters think people like me are taking what is rightfully theirs, they blame us. How do you get them to vote with us for the same goals, when their goal is stopping me from getting as much as they have?

[MarvinGardens]

114. Become a bigger tent.

You can go to any given county in the rural South and find that some people voted for Hillary. And if you do some math based on reasonable assumptions, find that some of them were probably white men. Of course most of the white men in such areas voted Trump, but not all. My point is that not all rural white males were willing to vote for a racist. They can be a good influence on their peers. Rural whites once voted Democratic in higher percentages, and that can happen again. We can win more of their votes without abandoning our current constituencies.

[bravenak]

115. Rural whites stopped voting democratic after the civil rights act was passed

And we still propose policy to help them no matter what. So it is not policy, it really is ideology. We dont need their voters, we need ours to show up in those areas.

[appal_jack]

169. The Governor's race in NC disproves your assertion.

Roy Cooper beat Pat McCrory in part thanks to rural voters.

-app

[bravenak]

173. And BLACK VOTERS

If only white had voted he would have LOST

[appal_jack]

185. Why yes; black voters were absolutely essential to this Dem victory. nt

[democrank]

152. Again, I'm not willing to give up anyone.

Think about the number of people who did not vote. What about them? Should we ignore them and pretend they don't exist?

Let's show that all lives matter (even Native Americans) and formulate an inspiring, truthful message. Let's work as hard in rural Kentucky as we do in coastal cities.

We can do this....together.

[bravenak]

153. I'm fine with going after non voters as opposed to Trump voters

And be honest with even rural Kentucky about automation and green energy. Let them know that we cannot force those mines to reopen, we cannot force the companies to hire humans as opposed to making robots to do the work of a hundred men. Trump is not honest. Nobody has told them the truth because it hurts, bith sides try to sugar coat it (us) or flat out lie (repubs) and feed into their biases about 'those people' here and abroad that 'took their jobs'.

Even Trump wont open up a factory to produce his crap in the usa. It costs too much. WE cost too much compared to other places. And we will not stop buying cheap shit to bring those jobs back.

So both parties try the nostalgia route, but they are much better at nostalgia. We remember the flaws. To them the flaws (oppression) were the features that made them feel BETTER. Than. And that was something.

[democrank]

155. Good ideas, bravenak.

I`d like us to study regions of rural America and see what the specific needs are, see how we could support certain projects. I remember not that long ago when the small town of Groveton, New Hampshire lost its mill. It was devastating with widespread aftershocks. I spoke with many of those workers and it was heartbreaking, especially with so many families being one paycheck from financial disaster. You can drive through towns in upstate New York and see business after business closed. There are pockets like that in Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont, and probably in most states in our country. Rural poverty (just like urban poverty) needs to be addressed.

I appreciate your part in this respectful "conversation" and continue to believe that we can come together. All for one and one for all, as the saying goes.

[Bear Creek]

45. None

The democrats need to go left and actually put emphasis on economics, pay, vacation, overtime, credit card rates, training and college, every ones issues. The republicans have taken away workers rights that were hard fought for. I read several different articles out today about the decrease in white births and that in a few years almost the whole country will resemble California's demography. So the answer is do nothing but let the republicans fail and we pick up the pieces and move forward together. They did not win by much so no mandate there. I believe the election was hacked nothing was ever done about those machines.

[bravenak]

47. So only focus on money, ignore the issues that effect or ability to achieve equality like social

justice? I vote no on that. My issues should be everyone's issues and vice versa. If my issues dont matter why should I care about your money?

[Bear Creek]

58. Social Justice

Is getting training and college without being in debt, having opportunities, getting paid fairly, being able to make a living. The most basic problem is the income inequality. So are you a republican troll?

[bravenak]

63. That is not social justice by any means. Look it up

[bravenak]

73. Not it is not

[Bear Creek]

77. Definition

So·cial jus·tice noun justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society. "individuality gives way to the struggle for social justice"

[bravenak]

79. You missed the opportunities and really a dictionary does not do it justice

It is a sociological term and their definition is the current standard. Not websters. It's like thinking wikipedia is the end all be all. It is not.

[GummyBearz]

199. You told him to look it up

[bravenak]

200. I didn't say where. Just like when I say look up Lysistrata I don't suggest using wikipedia

[PatsFan87]

49. We don't need to sell one group down the river to appeal to another...

Bill Clinton did that with welfare reform and we see how that turned out (mass incarceration anyone?) We don't need to triangulate and act like Republicans to appeal to southern and rust belt voters. We need to form an economic message for the people we have lost and lead with that message (particularly in ads). Let's develop ads pushing for broadband access to rural communities. Let's develop ads about relieving small businesses of regulations that are pushed by big business to squeeze them out (red tape is real and we need to admit that). Let's talk to farmers about standing up to the big agricultural lobby. Let's talk about the dangers of fracking. Let's talk about green energy relieving people of energy costs and tie that to job security for farmers (droughts were horrible this year). We CAN do it.

[shawn703]

51. I wouldn't mind giving up the Wall Street vote

Along with the millionaires and billionaires to get the middle class and poor white men back. I don't even know what you think those groups of people did that's so special for minorities anyway. All they do is get us fighting amongst ourselves so they can take a bigger slice of the pie while we're not looking.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

54. Other: People who use false choices.

[Canadaexpat2]

168. Amen.

[greatauntoftriplets]

55. I know more white men who voted for Clinton than voted for Herr Drumpf.

The ones who voted for Herr Drumpf wouldn't vote for a Democrat if you gave them a million dollars. Sadly, because in many respects they voted against their best interests.

[bravenak]

64. Truth

[sarisataka]

57. If you can't beat them

Join 'em

Let's judge folks by the color of their skin and use bigoted stereotyping to decide who is and who isn't a worthy person.

[SpareribSP]

59. Pretty sure this is the textbook definition of a false dichotomy.

[bravenak]

65. Not really. It's just based on history.

[SpareribSP]

101. Why do you assume we'd have to drop some group

to make more white men vote democratic?

[bravenak]

106. Because many of them are opposed to equality for all

The ones who voted for Trump are not worth the energy it takes to woo them since we will lose our self respect trying. The stuff that appeals to them turns others off. We have lost them for over fifty years. It started with civil rights. How are you going to get them back and still have all of us social justice people here demanding our voices be heard and respected?

[SpareribSP]

111. You do not have to compromise you values, nor should you

There are plenty of things you can do. I think the assumptions that

A) it's simply racism that's driving all white voters
B) the way to woo them is to be racist

Is simply wrong. Clearly the answer here is not to try to listen, understand, and react without racism or compromising core values.

When you see something like http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/health/death-rates-rising-for-middle-aged-white-americans-study-finds.html#permid=16548406:16548594 clearly there are many things that can be done here that are in line with social justice values. The user and NYT picked comments paint some pretty clear pictures.

[bravenak]

113. Trump woo'd them by being racist. It worked. Nothing more to do about that

[SpareribSP]

120. [Citation Needed]

And even if he did for some groups, that's not all white people, and certainly not the people in the article I posted. The people who still in 2016 are racists and bigots are going to drag him down and reduce his mandate, they are not well loved by the American people.

What I see is this: http://www.gallup.com/poll/163697/approve-marriage-blacks-whites.aspx

Even if he did appeal to the hold-outs on this issue, they're not going to be around long. Not to even mention that Trump got more votes from people of color than Romney. I'm just not convinced.

[bravenak]

122. Not all white people voted for Trump

He called mexicans rapists, said he would make a muslim registry, and wants to build a wall between us and mexico and deport immigrants. Anybody who could overlook his racist rhetoric has no empathy for other races. Period. It was not enough for them that he wants to round folks us based on race for them to be turned off. That's racist, whether they think so or not. I refuse to sugarcoat it so they wont be pissy.

[SpareribSP]

123. Sure

And Trump got more than double the Muslim vote of Mitt Romney. Does that mean in order to get more of the muslim vote that perhaps the Democrats should propose a crackdown on Muslims?

Trump is a terrible person with terrible ideas who is putting together a terrible staff to do terrible things, and those who voted for him did voted for a racist, but the assumptions you're making beyond that point aren't hitting the mark and don't logically follow.

[bravenak]

124. Nope. I am set on the fact that voting for an unabashed racist makes you racist

[SpareribSP]

125. Sure

You can label all Trump voters as racists, but even after that point, why does it mean that the Democrats should try to appeal to them with racism? It feels like you're trying to justify writing off nearly half of America as irredeemable.

[bravenak]

126. Because thats what appeals to them

How do you get them to vote for policies that help everyone, even minorities and those pesky muslims and mexicans and blacks, while also getting them to vote for prochoice politicians, which is in our platform? Or what positions do you change to suit their ideology?

Because those factory jobs aint never cominb back and we cannot force companies to shut down cheap factiries overseas to open back up here. How do you appeal to them without lying our asses off like Trump? Because whatever we offer, he will scream liar and offer a bigger lie.

[SpareribSP]

132. A few things about this

White people are actually more pro-choice than non-white, and the rust belt skews pro-choice. http://www.gallup.com/poll/162548/americans-misjudge-abortion-views.aspx

While it won't earn points in the south, it wouldn't make any sense to budge on that issue for strategic reasons, let alone moral and ethical ones. Pro-choice just needs better messaging, as Pro-lifers are fewer but more intense in their support.

The trade and economic issues are more complicated, sure. I won't lie to you and say I have the perfect solution here, either. The trade deal rhetoric on all sides has been jumbled and inflammatory. Rather than lie, I think it just needs honesty, and a new populist angle which is still realistic.

[bravenak]

134. We are not talking about all white people. We are talking whites that voted for Trump

[SpareribSP]

137. And of those

I think we're mainly talking about independents and not hardcore republicans/conservatives, and you can see from my link that indepedents are only -4 on being pro-choice, and it's probably better than that in the rust belt. I agree that it makes no sense to cater to the far right. I think my point stands, even if it was a negative view I don't think it would make sense to budge on that issue as it would look incredibly disingenuous.

[cliffside]

138. You seriously do not see the hypocrisy in your posts? You wish for the demise of old white males ..

while pretending to be a champion for all people ... either you abhor all racism and bigotry or you do not.

You can try and sidestep the issue, but your posts over the past couple of years have been nothing by one sided, yes I understand that you are attempting to bring attention to a significant problem of racial inequality, but the path forward is not on the backs of people of another age or race. Constantly pointing out differences does not lead to equality, that us is done when we focus on common elements which unite us all.

[bravenak]

140. Did you resign up just for little old me?

There are plenty of others to talk to

[cliffside]

147. Do not flatter yourself too much, Trump does that and it unbecoming. nt

[bravenak]

149. You still goin?

[heaven05]

61. K&R

they will willingly, the people who bemoan the loss of Dixiecrats, throw all not white male under the bus. This country is going to hell fast and the people calling themselves democrats and are willing to throw PoC, Independent women and all minorities under Bannons trumpfuhrer bus wheels to get back the Dixiecrats are obviously buying into trumpfuhrers returning ameriKKKa to the "good ole days".

[bravenak]

68. It's ridiculous

Falling over themselves to make excuses for people when we got millions more votes. They buy into the rightwing narratives and think we will just stay here while they pander.

[progree]

66. Dunno. White women voted for Trump over Hillary by a 9 point margin, 52-43

http://www.cnn.com/election/results/exit-polls/national/president

So that's another demographic we have to work on. Granted, nowhere near as bad as white men, who voted for Trump over Hillary by an astonishingly sickening 62-31 (31 point margin).

[bravenak]

76. Yeah. But they are swing voters, not fifty year reliable repubs like the men

I feel like they are reachable

[progree]

82. I hope so, but they are not "swing voters" -- they voted for Romney by a 14 point margin and

for McCain over Obama by a 7 point margin.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/whats-up-with-white-women-they-voted-for-romney-too

But yeah, that's a good place to start, though I'm dismayed that they voted for the most openly misogynist candidate ever by a 9 point margin. And against the ultra-highly-qualified first female major party presidential nominee in U.S. history.

Edited above to clarify the McCain one from "about the same" margin (I meant about the same as Trump) to a 7 point point. And added the NewYorker link.

[earthside]

67. Get the "white men" vote and not lose any reliable Democrats.

Everyone needs a good job with good pay and good benefits.

Promote an agenda that does that fairly and equitably for ALL people and Democrats will win elections for years and years to come.

[bravenak]

70. We already do that. Or do you think we only give benefits to certain groups and not offer our

benefits to all people already?

[earthside]

85. Benefits?

I was talking about a message of economic growth for working Americans.

I didn't say anything about government 'benefits'.

Your response shows how the Democratic message is so screwed-up and out-of-touch.
It isn't about benefits to groups -- the agenda needs to be about good jobs, good health insurance, good wages, affordable education, etc.

Democrats should talk about wealth inequality and come up with bold plans to do something about it.
Prosperity for ALL working folks in the tradition of the New Deal will keep all your 'groups' in the Democratic Party and expand its appeal to anyone who is feeling economically distressed.

[bravenak]

88. What do you think economic growth is? It is a benefit we recieve living in this nation.

what do you think sicial security is? Medicare? Infrastructure? Regulations? Mass Transit? Roads, bridges, fire dept, police? All those are benefits we offer our citizens and we Democrats strive to maintain and improve upon those benefits. The new deal was a benefit.

[Starry Messenger]

74. Looks like at least one guy up there was honest about his feelings.

I'll bet there'd be more, if you couldn't see user names.

[bravenak]

75. I know, right?

He 'has not agreed to terms of service', lol. A piner.

[johnp3907]

234. How are they even allowed to vote?

Well, they're going on my ignore list anyway, so whatever.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

80. Nobody.

Someone MIGHT successfully attack the current conservative stranglehold on evangelicals if they're willing to speak of Jesus as a liberal... which he was (whether real or a fictional character).

Hammer them on class issues that affect everyone too.

EDIT: And maybe gun regulations should be left up to state/local governments.

[harun]

83. All the racist rednecks I know wanted to vote in the general for Bernie.

[ismnotwasm]

118. You're shitten me

Racist rednecks wanted to vote for Bernie. And you know several? A bunch?

[bravenak]

119. Doesn't that make Bernie so much more appealing to you? It does for me.

I love sharing my candidates with people like that. Now I regret my choice. If only I had done as I was told. For shame.

[certainot]

90. all dems have to do is stop ignoring rw radio

[bravenak]

91. We need to stop ignoring that and get some loud unapologeitc people on the airwaves

Maybe our rich folks can fund a project

[progree]

94. Amen. One of the best ways for rich Dems to spend their money

In the Twin Cities, a former Democratic congressional candidate, Janet Robert, bought a radio station (I think in 2003) and turned it into http://www.AM950radio.com . Progressive talkers 24 hours a day on weekdays. (On weekends its mixed in with some infomercials, sigh).

Sadly, though most progressive talk radio stations around the country were part of Clear Channel or other chains, and got the boot after a few years.

[bravenak]

96. That sucks. We might need to start a DU web based show online

If we listen to it, maybe the idea will spread. I would donate at least an hour a week if we decuded to step things up for this site. Sites like this might need to expand out into other types of media.

[certainot]

116. have to stop letting our universities support rw radio

rw radio monopoly depends on 90 universities crapping on their mission statements to broadcast sports on rw radio.
the station pays a licensing co and they pay some to the university so the station can use the uni logos/brand to attract advertisers to pay for everything republican.

competing is a red herring - they are wall mart

americans just have to say fuck you, you are ignorant global warming denying, pub ed defunding, lying sacks of shit and our universities shouldn't be supporting you

[bravenak]

117. Thats true. We let them get away with too much at our expense

[SleeplessinSoCal]

92. How about a poll on how we fix the broken Fourth Estate?

Why don't we have an honest debate about Climate Change? Nobody brought it up in the debates. Seems to me it speaks to our dysfunction to ignore what is happening and push forward recklessly.

And why don't Democrats stick up for the importent issues like Social Security? What were we out there talking about? The TPP?

[Xipe Totec]

95. It's not a fourth estate, it's a fifth column. nt

[SleeplessinSoCal]

127. Right on Xipe Totec!

It is going to take an army of activists to wake this country from its coma.

[bravenak]

97. Do whatever kind of poll you like

I'll vote

[Xipe Totec]

93. reliable democrats?

[Martin Eden]

100. Other.

The OP poses a false question based on the assumption that standing strong for the principles of economic and social justice requires abandoning ANY voters, or that building a successful Democratic majority requires pandering to racism and misogyny or refraining from speaking out against it.

[Hekate]

102. KnR

[DemonGoddess]

103. K&R!

I chose other, because letting go of ANY of our diversity is anathema.

[Bad Thoughts]

104. Bankers

Yep, I'd lose bankers to get the White House back.

[bravenak]

105. Good one

[bravenak]

112. Very small group of people

I say we get rid of people who make excuses for voting for Trump that are not based in reality, but simply pandering

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

121. Then it's an easy trade-off

Vocal proponents of trendy nonsense bring us nothing.

[betsuni]

128. This is fabulous!

Love it.

[cliffside]

129. Fri Jun 6, 2014 "After you old guys are gone the rest of us will make up the new majority."

Is there point at which you stop dividing people by the color of their skin tone, their age etc.

This tone seeks to divide, not unite people around common issues, but here we are in late 2016 and the same divisiveness continues in your posts.

Those that misread this election season have left us with a horrible choice and I can only hope we start to rebuild a party that listens to the needs of all people!

formerly posted as slipslidingaway, still falling off a cliff, unless we hold our party to account and seek to unite.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5060383

"bravenak (31,553 posts)

41. After you old guys are gone the rest of us will make up the new majority.

I think it will take much less time than the estimates project. I have two children, he has four, i expect to have two more and that will still mean i will have the least amount of children for a Lady in my family. My grandmother had ten. Most of my friens have several already and are continuing to procreate. Many of my white friends are in mixed marriages and have several children who identify as asian or black or hispanic not white. Minorities are not cozy with wall street for the most part, and women especially single one are less likely to vote Republican. So in twenty years we will not have 2 Parties run by Old white Dudes who service the rich. We will be voting ourselves a right good part of their money, praise R'hllor.

You got to realize that power is shifting towards a more liberal society and that it is the old white men who are standing in the way of progress, passing shit laws and fighting against womens rights. The kids growing up see their congressmen screeching about illegals, urban youths, thugs, wetbacks and more. They will not be voting for Republicans. And Democrats better get our shit together and start bringing in the next generation quickly before Republicans decide to get smart, steal our platform, and out voters. Because sorry to tell you, the youth is not interested in the NSA all day everyday, they post every private thought they have on Tumblr, facebook, etc.

They will kill wall street when they get their time. I'll be right here helping them find the means. And we need their help to do it because the old party bosses still control the legislature, for now.
The only way to get the votes is to get the voters engaged. And horror stories about how much you hate Obama is not a good lure when you are fishing in a pond of Obama supporters, and the youth , women, lgbt's, and minorities are supporters of this President. You are driving them away and losing us votes.

[bravenak]

130. That was an all time great post of mine

[cliffside]

131. Seriously? Do you not see that dividing people by race and age is not something to be championed?

But if you are happy pitting one person against another then I see where you stand.

You have once again stated your position boldly, although I vehemently disagree.

[bravenak]

133. It was truly great

[cliffside]

141. "the old white men who are standing in the way of progress.."

you still do not see the hypocrisy in your posts, as Donald believes, and so do you with your dismissive replies, 'it was truly great'

Your falsehood in your 2014 post below was that you believed you were leaning liberal, yet you try and subjugate another segment of society to advance your status, that is not liberal position.

But hey, it was truly great!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5060383

"After you old guys are gone the rest of us will make up the new majority.

I think it will take much less time than the estimates project. I have two children, he has four, i expect to have two more and that will still mean i will have the least amount of children for a Lady in my family. My grandmother had ten. Most of my friends have several already and are continuing to procreate. Many of my white friends are in mixed marriages and have several children who identify as asian or black or hispanic not white. Minorities are not cozy with wall street for the most part, and women especially single one are less likely to vote Republican. So in twenty years we will not have 2 Parties run by Old white Dudes who service the rich. We will be voting ourselves a right good part of their money, praise R'hllor.

You got to realize that power is shifting towards a more liberal society and that it is the old white men who are standing in the way of progress, passing shit laws and fighting against womens rights. The kids growing up see their congressmen screeching about illegals, urban youths, thugs, wetbacks and more. They will not be voting for Republicans. And Democrats better get our shit together and start bringing in the next generation quickly before Republicans decide to get smart, steal our platform, and out voters. Because sorry to tell you, the youth is not interested in the NSA all day everyday, they post every private thought they have on Tumblr, facebook, etc.

They will kill wall street when they get their time. I'll be right here helping them find the means. And we need their help to do it because the old party bosses still control the legislature, for now.
The only way to get the votes is to get the voters engaged. And horror stories about how much you hate Obama is not a good lure when you are fishing in a pond of Obama supporters, and the youth , women, lgbt's, and minorities are supporters of this President. You are driving them away and losing us votes.

[bravenak]

142. Nothing better to do?

[cliffside]

145. I call them as as I see them, just as others did with your divisive posts in 2014 ...

but you still have not looked into the mirror to see the hypocrisy of your 'great posts.'

But all your posts are great, Donald would say the same about his tweets!

[bravenak]

150. You just signed up to complain about my post from almost three years ago? How. Normal.

[johnp3907]

201. I Agree.

[akbacchus_BC]

135. It is not only white men who voted against Mrs. Clinton, a lot of women did too.

No need to blame white men for her losing the Presidency. To be honest, I still cannot understand why she lost! It is baffling, I felt she would have won, given the polls.

[bravenak]

136. I never was much for polls, I just dont trust them

We did end up with millions more votes, we just did not get them where we needed them, sadly. Our vote was depressed and voter restrictions hurt. I think midterms will be better. It is hard to keep the whitehouse for three cycles.

[akbacchus_BC]

139. Your election system is flawed, it should be proportional representation. It baffles me that a

nominee gets 2 million votes over the electoral college an an asshole wins. That system is archaic. No wonder people do not turn out to vote, because their votes do not count. The system needs to be changed.

To be honest with you, the world is distressed with this asshole being president elect. Gawd, I was so looking forward to President Obama handing over to SOS Clinton.

[MadDAsHell]

171. Trump won a greater % of the Hispanic and African-American vote than Romney.

The first female Presidential candidate in history got a smaller % of the female vote than the 44th male did.

We have a lot of work to do, and it clearly ain't only with white men.

[bravenak]

177. So? She got over two millions more votes

I know yall think black folks owe Democrats their votes and we owee it to the partty to continue voting in historic record number only for democrats but that was NEVER going to last forever.

[MadDAsHell]

179. Ok, so you're saying we should give up on white men, African-Americans, AND Hispanics?

How many more groups are you going to put in this pot? With the roll you're on, we're going to run out of votes fairly quickly here...

[bravenak]

180. I say we should GIVE UP ON REPUBLICANS

[MFM008]

143. I'm not willing to trade ANY

Not one to get a disgruntled white person off the maggot train.
My son and brother are disgruntled white men and they voted against he-who-must-not-be-named.
White guys can get on board or they can also drop deceased.

[bravenak]

144. Agreed

[oberliner]

154. Some of those reliable Democrats turned out to be not so reliable

If those groups you mentioned had voted in larger numbers, HRC would be president.

[gollygee]

163. Then why aren't we wooing them instead of wooing Trump voters? Nt

[oberliner]

165. Is it possible to craft a message that would have broad appeal?

I think that is the question to consider.

[bravenak]

176. She would have won if we got a hundred thousand more voters in swing states

We got millions more votes, why do we need to go after republicans who don't mind that the KKK loves their candidate? Republicans never try to chill so they can get democrats to criss over, they focus MORE on their base when they lose. We tell ours to stfu so that republicans like us better.

[oberliner]

231. She could have won in an electoral college landslide

If the voters you mentioned above turned out in larger numbers than they did (especially in those swing states that we didn't think were swing states like Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania).

[Exilednight]

157. Which ones did Obama sacrifice? Obama won, so based on your premise he had to

sacrifice someone. Our demographics haven't changed that much since 2012.

[LexVegas]

158. None! Fuck 'em. nt

[EffieBlack]

159. I could have written this. But I didn't. You did. And I love you for it!

[Gothmog]

164. The Democratic Party is a big tent party and cannot throw away groups

There is not one group who makes of the base of the Democratic Party that can be sacrificed to win the votes of a group that votes against their own economic interests

[Mc Mike]

166. None. I'm a white guy. Rec, nt.

Last edited Fri Dec 2, 2016, 06:47 PM - Edit history (1)

[hueymahl]

172. I get your point, and it is a clever rhetorical mechanism

But I can't vote in the poll because of the way it is worded. If you had said "Which group of reliable democrats are YOU willing to lose to get bigoted White Men to vote Democratic?" it would have been easy and more accurate (none). And that is what you really mean when you say "White Men" in the poll question.

There is a more sophisticated point to make about at least some of the Trump voters that are white men - the union workers and rust-belt voters, the rural voters who have seen the economy pass them by. They are not all bigots. At least some I would argue feel abandoned by the both parties. Who see nafta and free trade, rightly or wrongly, as a reason for their situation. See a lack of commitment to union priorities by the Democrats. These folks would not have voted for Jeb Bush either. But they were susceptible to a populist message from a con man.

So, ultimately for me, you have set up a false choice. There is room under our tent for these disaffected white men. I don't see a need to throw anyone else out to make an outreach to them.

[heaven05]

178. no, the OP is correct

many mainstream democrats are struggling with how to win the dixiecrats back. The poll is worded correctly. Intellectualizing and 'splainin how it should be "worded" to appeal to the overwhelming numbers of racist disaffected white people(males) a majority of whom voted for the potusfuhrer-in-waiting will not turn some of them from racists to bigots. So it's bigoted vs racist. Right? I don't want a racist in my tent on my back. The white males and females who voted for the trumpfuhrer are overwhelmingly RACIST!!!!!!!What don't you people understand about that FACT. Obfuscating that point will NOT make that fact untrue!!!!!!!!!!!

[ismnotwasm]

183. Yup

[hueymahl]

188. I can promise you not all Trump voters are racist

I know several. And not all Trump voters are white either, for that matter.

Claiming otherwise is its own kind of bigotry.

Great, now you've got me defending Trump voters! I feel dirty!

[heaven05]

191. Hell no they aren't

ALL white. It's a fact the 8% AA, 30% latinos, 19% Asian, and whites, male and females voted overwhelmingly for the racistpotus-in-waiting. Yet the fact remain that those who voted for the trumpfuhrer-in-waiting ARE overwhelmingly racist and self hating. No promises please. I'm done with promises from ameriKKKa and MOST americans.

[Glassunion]

186. If I had to choose a particular demographic to abandon, to get some white folk voting, it'd have to

be Black-European Asian-American Jewish Senior-Citizens, aged 18 to 24. They can fuck off...

Your post would insinuate that there is only so many seats on the bus. That somehow in order to bring in a particular demographic of voter, that we would have to sacrifice another demographic group on the altar of progressive values.

[bravenak]

187. It would certainly sacrifice my vote if the party starts pandering to Trump voters

[Nancyswidower]

190. Wrong metric....you don't have to give up one to get the other...

If that's what you think.....say goodbye to EVER winning anything again.

[bravenak]

197. Yes you do. To pander to them you'd need to ignore minority concerns and shut us up

They think we are taking what is rightfully theirs. I won't sit here and watch us twist ourself in a knot to get white males back, I won't stay to watch that nonsense. It is insulting to lifelong democrats. They have never in my life went majority democrat and never will. It's like an addict chasing a fix, chasing the mythical dragon.

They left because of civil rights. Whose right are you going to impede on to get them back? They voted for a muslim registry, who are you going to put on a list to satisfy their need to harm others who they think are not worthy?

[Nancyswidower]

205. Bullshit...you are angry..I get that

"They think we are taking what is rightfully theirs." ..that is the biggest load of shit I've seen you post this week..and you have posted a LOT of shit lately...

Just stop with the perpetual victim crap...OR be prepared to lose every election for the rest of our lives...your anger will win NO ONE.....here.. or in the wider pool of voters.
It's not a white-v-black deal.....it's a sane -v- angry deal....ANGRY never wins. Hillary won 2+mil Pop votes over the Dumpster...just not where we needed the votes.

Perpetually pissed off will not win you a vote....just won't. Go ahead try that...hasn't worked so far.

[bravenak]

207. They do and you can deny it but you are now letting them set the reality

Angry never wins? It just did. Donald won on anger. Not policy.

[Nancyswidower]

210. I'm not letting any one set reality....EXCEPT for the the GE...

and the '10-'14 midterms....wasn't a racial issue...as much as YOU would like it to be.

You can yell race or gender or class all you want....your posts..."..Let us blacks, hispanics, ethnic minorities, lgbtq, and atheists and other assorted unwanted segments know so we can find someplace to be when the shit hits the fan.".....there won't be fan shit hitting...we have competent Reps in D.C......we need to grow that number..absolutely....but hyperbole...your alarmist crap...falls on deaf ears in D.C.....alarmist attitude is not a stragety.

Not all of us think or believe it's game over.....far from it. It's a rallying point...from here we fix the beatings of '10 and '14...and the latest setback.......OR we just sit back and call everyone a racist that didn't vote for Hillary..... mark my words....that will go poorly...for decades.

[bravenak]

211. Yes it was. The tea party was racist as fuck against the muslim kenyan in the whitehouse

That was the REASON we GOT the TEA PARTY

[Nancyswidower]

216. More hyperble....do you know anything about the "Tea Party"..I studied it...wasn't racist based.

And you can't show it was....it was a perfect storm of people pissed at big Government spending

Look....everything to you is racist, that's obvious....Hillary's loss to the Dumpster, the '10 and '14 asskickin's we took(though Obama won in '12), every state legislature and local govt loss...every Governorship....the dog catcher deal in Podunk upstate NY....it's all racial to you....I get that....problem is...you are wrong.

Not everything is racial...it just isn't...sometimes our ideas don't get the votes.....and it's NOT because you or Obama is black.

We took the Senate and the House in the '06 midsterms....during Bush....had both and President Obama until Jan'11....it's how we got the ACA...elections..have consequences....and they aren't racial....that idea throws 2/3rd of the voting population into being racists...pure horseshit....and you know it.

[bravenak]

217. Yes it was

They had obama witch doctor posters at their rallies and started BIRTHERISM

[Nancyswidower]

220. And we had GWBush Nazi posters...Here we allowed callin a POSTUS Chimpy...

You know better than...'started BIRTHERISM...'....you know that's a lie, POTUS birthplace questions did NOT start with the right.... if you even try to be honest you know that false..I'm beginning to wonder.

I'll show the origin of the birth issue in '07-'08.....wasn't the window lickers from the right....that was friendly fire and you KNOW that.

[bravenak]

221. GWB acted like he was one so we called him one. That was not race based like witchdoctor posters

[Nancyswidower]

225. That makes it better??? Do you not see the hypocrisy...

"GWB acted like he was one so we called him one...".....that will get us votes....when hell freezes over...
You just don't get it.....your path has failed....miserably...for quite some time.

I have no fear of saying it to you....your path of driving racial wedges....sucks.
Won't get us ONE more vote...I read that horrific tirade you posted on DKos and I know you apologized....but you have a chip on your shoulder based entirely on race....won't gain us votes....it'll cost us....which sets the Civil rights deal back...that's on YOU.

OR you can meet us half way....not all voters are racist if they didn't vote Hillary....100's of thousands of POTUS lines were left blank in many states....they aren't racists....they are pissed at both sides..as they should be.

[bravenak]

227. Nazi is not a race it is an ideology

[Nancyswidower]

230. Never claimed it was....

[lumberjack_jeff]

193. Broad brush much? Not everyone would refuse to belong to a club that allows white men.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I correctly observe that identity politics is a failure.

[bravenak]

194. I would if it was a political club and they were republican white men

[GummyBearz]

195. The limousine ones

Get back to pro union, pro jobs, and away from the pro free trade crap that businesses push for so the CEO can get richer. Yes we may lose some bankers and have to work to win NY state a little, but that's who I would give up- the fat cats

[Lunabell]

203. corporate dems and war mongers

Like Hillary and the rest of the neo liberal crowd.

[GummyBearz]

212. ...

[radius777]

213. whites had no problem voting for Reagan Repubs

for the past 40 years.

But the minute a woman or minority makes it in this world, it's suddenly "neoliberal". Ohhh, the evil "globalists" are destroying the white way of life.

[Maru Kitteh]

204. NONE of them Brave! WE ARE the Democratic base, WE ARE THE LEFT!

Those who are willing to sell us down the river for the racist white male vote, those calling for us to return to the back of the bus can kindly go do inappropriate and anatomically impossible acts upon themselves without lube.

[font size = 8]Catering to racist white guys is NOT the future of our country OR our party. Fuck that noise.

[bravenak]

206. I also refuse to step aside so they can get served first

[Qutzupalotl]

208. Racists.

Fuck em.

[bravenak]

209. I should have made that an option

[radius777]

214. the berniebot alt-left has alot in common w/trumper alt-right,

in that they view the "elites" (now suddenly a problem because increasingly more elites are non-white) as oppressing the "American" "white working class" (because of course, PoC don't really work, nor are PoC really American, and of course the countries we trade with are mostly non-white). Oooh, scary "globalism", destroying the 1950's white way of life, oooh, "neoliberalism", "globalism," ooooh.

The alt-left would be better off in the GOP, where together with the Trumper alt-right, they could together focus on white populism, without icky social liberalism (PoC, immigrants, women, gays, guns, religion, etc) and internationalism getting in their way.

[bravenak]

215. They are all super dooper nostalgic for 'better times'

Those better times sucked for the rest of us but none of that matters to them. That was when everything was right in the world.

[radius777]

218. Exactly. the old FDR Dem party was a Dixiecrat party

that centered the white working class at the expense of everybody else, turning a blind eye to the horrors that were going on in the 'solid south' and elsewhere.

The New Deal, unions etc were great for white men - everybody else, not so much.

Racism/sexism/xenophobia etc are economic issues, but more importantly, are basic human rights issues that affect a person's experience of the world far more than economics.

[bravenak]

219. I agree with you completely

They ignored lynchings and left black out in many ways. No wonder so many want to go back. I will not be joining them

[frazzled]

223. Thank you for posting (and bravenak, too)

Because I don't have the energy right now, and you guys are saying it all for me.

[BlueMTexpat]

228. None!

F**k those white men - and women - who did not vote for their own best interests!

Whatever their twisted rationale, they voted for the most blatant proponent of hatred, racism, misogyny and bigotry we have ever had as a Presidential candidate. They deliberately CHOSE to do so and I am done with them. Done.

[bravenak]

232. Me too. I'm done with them