2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumIf the Democratic Party decides to ignore the concerns of minority voters to get white 'Rust Belt'
Last edited Sun Nov 27, 2016, 06:32 AM - Edit history (2)
voters;
Then we can plan on also losing the minority votes for the next generation. I won't participate in a party that thinks it can ignore the racism coming out of that group in order to lure them in to get their votes and still somehow retain the votes of minorities and women; they got another thing coming.
It won't work. Much of Make America Great Again was Make America White Again. We know that and wont pretend that that is not what it was. In order to get those voters you must needs to throw black folks and hispanics and others under the bus. I know that if the focus is on luring white Trump voters, I wont Be voting for the folks trying to pander to those racist idiots.
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uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... than they were when Obama took office then how in the hell is a person supposed to think this wasn't about racism?!
and
Who in the hell believes the white working class in America has it WORSE than the black or Hispanic working class in America when it comes to jobs etc.
I'm disappointed and I'm not taking this stupid meme about one group of people being worse off than the other working classes is America as the reason they voted DPutin
bravenak
(34,648 posts)think they are way more IMPORTANT than us dark working class folks. We aint never getting white folks back and Im a bit insulted at how stupid folks are acting.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... enough whites in America who don't buy the GOPs bullshit ass'd memes ... I don't chasing the assholes with a "fuck those people" is a good message
bravenak
(34,648 posts)This was a backlash against what they saw as us dark folks and women putting a black man in charge. It was bound to happen, now we all suffer. The dnc better get their shit together.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)Obama and Clinton have little to do with this mindset. These guys have been brainwashed with bigotry and social issues for decades while the Republicans they vote for continue to pick their pockets. There is no helping them or should we. These people are willfully stupid.
RKP5637
(67,102 posts)bottom line is they are in Trump's eye losers. They haven't figured that out yet, doubtful they will. He manipulated them as stooges for the vote, but they're too fucked stupid to get it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
DemonGoddess
(4,640 posts)late '60's, this hidden racism as reasons to vote against themselves. It turned into a FLOOD with Reagan.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Millions of people believe all sorts of utter nonsense. They live in an alternate reality from which there's no return. Democrats need to engage the disengaged (40% don't vote in presidential elections and 60% don't vote in mid-term elections) and outnumber the opposition, because they will never win over the likes of those who don't think white privilege and institutionalized racism are realities. Or those who think climate change is a hoax. Or those who think that Obama is a Muslim who was born in Kenya. Or those who think marriage equality infringes on rights, as opposed to expanding rights. And so on.
As I wrote below, at least 20% of eligible voters simply can't be reached by the Democratic Party without the Democratic Party completely abandoning its base. I don't know why that's such a hard thing to accept. After all, we live in a country where Young Earth Creationists have sat on the US House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology. A country where, in the year 2016, the President-elect was endorsed by the KKK. Again, there are those living in an alternate reality. If one wants to spend the time and energy trying to pull such folks out of that reality, good f***ing luck.
Clinton offered far more substantive positions than Trump on economic matters and everything else, the Rust Belt is better off than it was pre-Obama, Trump is the most Wall Street-friendly candidate *ever*, Trump picked up steam as soon as he indicated that most Mexican immigrants are rapists and drug dealers, and Clinton did better than Trump among those most hurt by the recession. But I'm supposed to believe Clinton lost because Trump is the candidate of the working stiff? And not because of racism, sexism, xenophobia, voter suppression, FBI interference, etc.? Uh-huh.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)No fucking way all those people actually believed tht Trump was the man of the peopke or that he cared about the little guy. And anybody trying to push that meme is suspect
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Because tens of millions of Americans subscribe to some of the most ridiculous beliefs imaginable. And there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about that.
Charles Pierce wrote an article a couple days after the election, and I want to highlight one part that I think is totally spot-on. After quoting a Trump supporter, Pierce wrote the following:
There literally is no innovative political strategy, and there is no creative policy prescription, that would have convinced that woman to vote for Hillary Rodham Clinton. She is so deeply sunk in the mire of misinformation that she never will be pulled out again. Who is it, precisely, that doesn't care about her, and how was that manifested in her daily life? How, precisely, would Donald Trump care about her? The piece is replete with these kind of moments. What should the Democrats do to meet halfway the guy who believes the nation is being "pussified"? What's precisely the political outreach strategy that will bring back a guy who says this?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Nothing we can say will ever convince some of these people.
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)35ish maybe?
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Based on the fact that ~25% of eligible voters voted for Trump. But, yes, the percentage is likely higher.
We all have a limited amount of time and energy. Personally, I don't see much point in dedicating time and energy to pulling people out from an alternate reality.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)It makes no sense whatsoever. We don't need the entitled, bigoted men in our party.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)Some aren't racists and will be happy to have POC join their ranks if they're rich and back the Grand Oligarchy Party with money, influence and after that, guns and a religious cover.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Why does a party platform have to apply to either one or the other?
That's the problem with identity politics.
Democrats are putting themselves in an unnecessary dilemma. Is it that hard to push a platform that supports everybody?
JI7
(89,244 posts)they voted for the guy who wanted to get rid of certain groups.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... narrative on its face.
I'm not convinced one bit that people who's economies have improved from the time Obama got into office with direct actions of Obama are somehow convinced they're WORSE off than the others.
Also
Identity politics is what DPutin did all day long 24/7 and it wasn't a "game" to him... it was some shit he's done all his life... he's a life long racist not some soft diet racist either.
HRC didn't do to bad with all demographics and lost the 3 projected EC states by a total of 100k... Don't now if I'd change that much in direction of strategy seeing the demos are going in the direction of the democrats strategy.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Anyone who thinks the GOP is dying party is someone living in the clouds and not in touch with reality. They will change and adapt in ways to make it work. They found a formula that worked. The party will now shift to support that winning strategy.
This shift has already turned WI, MI, PA, and potentially even MN into swing states. These were states that 1 month ago Democrats considered solid blue and impossible to lose. But this is a wake-up call that the electoral map can change. Just like Georgia and Arizona may be moving to purple states in the next cycle or two. The Rust Belt is now moving red. They just needed a certain type of candidate for the dam to break.
If the GOP is changing to adapt and we don't. What will happen in 2020? Should we go into that election the same way we went into this one and just ignore the midwest? If I were the nominee, I sure as hell wouldn't..... Whether you like it or not, we now have to spend a lot of money in these states now.
And don't start with the popular vote. Running up a 3+ million vote lead in California is meaningless. No one in the rest of the country cares.
JI7
(89,244 posts)davidn3600
(6,342 posts)But it doesn't matter if Hillary wins California by 3 votes or 30 million. It's still the same number of electoral votes. Fair or not, that is just how we elect presidents in this country....and that won't change.
The GOP now has 31 governors.
They have won 919 state legislative seats in the last 6 years.
They now control both houses in 32 states.
They control 68 of 98 state bodies.
They control the House
They control the Senate
They will control the White House
They will preserve their majority on the Supreme Court
Yet you got people telling me the GOP is dying and the Democrats should just continue what we are doing now? Give me a fucking break! How much more power do you want to lose before we admit something needs to change? This so-called "dying party" now has more power than they have had since the days of Reconstruction!
No one is blaming POCs. No one is saying social justice issues can't be part of the platform. But this party needs to stop making this out to be a war between POCs and whites. You are talking as if we can't care about the issues that everyone faces. Why can't we talk about the issues that minorities in California face as well as the issues whites face in Michigan? Why can't we do both? Why does it have to be either/or?
JI7
(89,244 posts)that she won the actual numbers by a huge amount because she can claim to have won the people's vote.
it's TRUMP who was campaigning as an open racist and attacking people of other races . and the fucking people who voted for an open racist are the ones who have problems with other races and want to start something between races.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)What about the 57% of Cuban-Americans that voted for Trump?
Are these people racist against their own race?
Im sure their vote wasnt because they want a wall on the southern boarder to keep out a certain race. There is obviously another reason they voted the way they did. Had these people voted for Hillary, she would have won a blowout in Florida. Why didn't they?
JI7
(89,244 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)JI7
(89,244 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)JI7
(89,244 posts)Republican in way higher numbers are made to be victims.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And there is certainly intraracial racism within the hispanic community, I know that well since I am considered too dark for many other hispanics to feel a connection to me. I deal with it from both sides, hell, ALL SIDES. Too hispanic for some blacks, too blackfor some hispanics, too black for a bunch of white folks, etc.
Dont try to make floridian hisanics the microcausm for the macrocausm. Or try to blame us minorities for the loss. It was WHITE VOTERS THAT PUT TRUMP IN THE WHITE HOUSE. Remember that. Trying to pretend that minorities are to blame for what the majority voted for. That is just bullshit.
JI7
(89,244 posts)We don't say obama should not have opened cuba.
We don't say dems need to be more religious to get those black and hispanic voters who that vote republican over religion.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
JHan
(10,173 posts)At the end of the day you're staring at the fact that 60,000 odd people didn't consider Xenophobia, Racism or Bigotry a deal breaker at the ballot box.
Lizz612
(2,066 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)So, we just keep calling tens of millions of Americans "stupid and bigoted." That'll do the trick.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They voted for a guy who wants to deport millions based on race/religion but somehow they are not racist assholes? Bullfuckingshit. Time to call them as they are. I aint worried about hurting the fee fees if folks who dont give a shit that their candidates thinks all blacks like me are LAZY. Why the hell are youdefending Trump voters? They are RACISTS. Period. I dont give a shit if one guy was not and got included by voting for a A RACIST ASSHOLE. VOTE FOR A RACIST, you are a racist. Period. Inflicting that asshole on minorities is racist. Keep defending that shit. It looks good on ya.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)tone in your personal attack, a la the last few sentences.
The Party has been ill-served by focusing on various groups' interests at the ignorance of others. It is unfortunate that you do not see this, and I am afraid that more election losses won't make a difference in your outlook. The approach you take is quite reminiscent of the language used over the last 50+ years, and after all that time, here we all are again, Bravenak.
You should note that in DU, the use of Racist/Racism is much like the term Pinko-Communist: All you have to do is land a stick of rhetorical bombs near the target and you score. 'Trouble is, everyone will some time, some where become a racist traipsing through the DU minefield, and where does that get us? "Vote for a racist, you are a racist. Period." Was LBJ a racist? Was LeRoy Collins a racist? Probably so. Yet yours is a hermetically sealed political outlook which brooks no deviation or violation of your own inviolable standards.
This is a big reason why we don't capture much of the "stupid and bigoted" vote. You don't for a moment think these people you so despise (including me, since the standard for racism here can be fairly hop-scotched over by an elderly person) don't see and know this?
You don't offer much new, Bravenak, just the same stuff tooted over half a century earlier.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)soft pedaled bullshit of a lot pretending that racism and the rest of the negative isms were not the driving force of the new fuhrer rising from the ashes of a so-called dead Party. The racists reinvigorated and now are sustaining the RepubliKKKKan Party. The racists, bigots narrow minded and just plain ignorant and stupid are the overwhelming majority of their base. Racists in overwhelming numbers voted for the racist to make ameriKKKa white again and when when the feces hits the rotating oscillator, PoC will be on their own as many who claim progressive and liberal leaning fade into the lynch mob and start screaming for PoC, immigrant and Muslim bodies swinging at the end of a rope. Bravenak offers the truth and that's always refreshing when one finds themselves wading through a sea of bullshit.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)the tens of millions who voted for Trump, or face being relegated to a third party in a two-party system. If you want to dig in and fight these people, then tell me and others what use is the Party? You don't kiss their KKK ass, their misogynistic balls, or their anti-immigrant prick. You work for policies -- clear, bright-line policies -- which support these people and win them over. And I guarantee you this: You will face as much opposition from the Party's corporate hierarchy as you will from the GOPers, and it will grow stiffer as the lines get drawn more brightly.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Wed Nov 30, 2016, 07:32 PM - Edit history (1)
with the tens of millions that voted for the new fuhrer, you say. If they don't deal with themselves AFTER their fuhrer shows his true colors, then there will be no reckoning. Your persistence at ignoring the danger that the RW New Nazi Party of ameriKKKa presents to the rights of PoC bothers me. But maybe you are one that can afford to play with these people and all of the body parts you mentioned, all I can do is stand up to their bully and bullying because white people are swaggering the streets since they have reaffirmed that they are going to put minorities "back in their place". You may not feel it, yet I see it every day in the hate and arrogance shown to me by members of the NNPA. We had policies, didn't do a damn thing to get HRC into office. The fuhrer had NONE and he is now POTUS elect. Go figure.
Win them over? HRC had policies lined up as ducks in a row, good solid policies. These people did not want policies, they want the blood of PoC, Muslims and immigrants. They are, at bottom line, RACIST ameriKKKans wanting to make ameriKKKa white again and if you can't acknowledge that as one of the major reason the NNPA and their fuhrer now stand on the brink of power manipulation affecting our people and the whole world, I have nothing else to say. And truthfully I don't know what use our Party is at this time as a definite minority force in making policies for all in this country. The house, senate and upcoming, the supreme court are LOST TO US. Keep dreaming, maybe you'll wake up one day and understand what bothers PoC about how the fuhrer was elected and more importantly WHY. Good luck with your offering gorillas policies. The head gorilla can't read or retain knowledge why would .....ahhh never mind. They may have the retaliatory power but resistance will always be a thorn that makes them bleed. By any means necessary. Good luck to you.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)There are over 40,000,000 people who voted for tRump. They are part the electorate which decided against Clinton, and Democrats in most down-ballot races. See this:
WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THEM.
The alternative is for the militants on "both" (there are surely more) sides to engage in hostilities as if this were a budding 3rd World nation bent on chronic violence and disruption. It may come to that. But why not try and build a movement, like so many here at Democratic UNDERGROUND claim they want? We are further from that option that at any time since the 60s. And that distance has been a matter of Party choice.
The Party, Democrats in general, and many folks here are out of touch; politically, socially, with our neighbors, and with technology (tRump has over 40,000,000 sniffing round his Twitter site, with nothing else close). We have become willfully ignorant of our own American culture, and as such are in no condition to launch some half-assed revolution. Even if we were ready, we STILL MUST TALK with tRump's supporters.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)and good luck....you know I was in a large store today, not walmart, and all the sudden I was hit with an epiphany of sorts. When I was in Vietnam, I was surrounded by by a sea of Vietnamese faces, all the time. I did convoy duty in our AO, which included Saigon, Bien Hoa, Zuan Loc, my favorite Vung Tau. All my time in Vietnam I NEVER knew in those faces who hated me and wanted me dead. I wore a uniform that marked me in crowds of unmarked people.
Today I looked around and all the sudden felt unsafe again as in Vietnam. I was surround by a sea of faces in which I really did not know who hated me and wanted me dead because of my 'uniform' that I wear 24/7. I don't hate everyone in that sea of faces that assaulted my senses. But given this election I now know I am hated by many more people than I could have ever imagined. I'm not militant but hostility is leveled against me EVERY day now. In that same store, an arab woman in hijab walked past me, two ameriKKKans stared at her in a manner that if stares had been bullets that poor woman would be dead. They looked around and I locked eyes with she and her sig other. They tried to maintain their hate stare, but what they got back from me made them drop their eyes. THIS COUNTRY is headed for trouble, big time. I did not ask for it, as the millions who voted for a decent person didn't ask for it. But rest assured I will give back everything I receive, both positive and negative.
Keep talking. I'm through talking.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Of course, we all know what the GOP really means by "identity politics." It's dog-whistling.
Just as we know what the GOP means by "political correctness," or what the rest of us call human decency.
The Republican Party isn't the party of sound economic policy, but millions believe and always will believe that "voodoo economics" is the bee's knees. At least 20% of eligible voters simply can't be reached by the Democratic Party without the Democratic Party abandoning its base.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)For the most part, I'm on hiatus from the blogs because folks are talking in circles but I keep reminding people talking all of this shit about getting rid of "identity politics" is that you will have to come back and ask African Americans (and LGBT's and Latinos, for that matter) for their vote.
Telling these groups to "shut up" about 'identity politics" is not a good look.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm trying to bite my tongue but I know it will be bleeding pretty soon. Nice to see you regardless, I hope people come to the realization soon that we are necessary and important too.
brer cat
(24,556 posts)The democratic party shouldn't "come back and ask African Americans (and LGBT's and Latinos, for that matter) for their vote"; they are the party. We are the party of civil rights, equal rights, anti-discrimination; you can't have that without "identity politics."
None of us joined/supported the democratic party because we are racists, bigots, misogynists, or have a hankering to inject religion into our schools and government. Pandering to those who are would be to reject our core values. We need to be loud, proud, and out. Make American White Again with LGBTs in the closet and women pregnant and in the kitchen just isn't who we are.
mopinko
(70,074 posts)
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)We can do both.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)To get more white votes and that just loses my vote. And I am a STRONG Democrat. But I wont vote for a party that tells me to stfu about my identity. I'd just stay home.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)message that would send to minorities in our party, want that. I don't think that's representative of most of us, and in spite of efforts to paint it as such, it is not was Sanders said recently, nor is it indicative of how he campaigned, or of his career in office. The economic message really is not, and should not be separated from issues of civil rights, and because it is a message that is saying, lets go take stuff back from the people who actually took it and have it, it isn't unintentionally triggering people on loss avoidance terms who think they are going to have to share their dwindling stuff.
An economic message that resonates because it gives us a common cause rather than makes us look suspiciously at one another, should not come, nor does it have to come, before calls of social justice. If somebody said it did, I would agree that there's no damn reason for people who have been screwed over and over by promises in the past, to trust such an agenda.
But it should be said the economic policies themselves, if focused not at just bettering the lives of the middle class, but of the poor, and funding schools over prisons, and free college tuition for all, and investment into city infrastructure, etc. would in-and-of-themselves do some work to alleviate the unfair burden of stress and insecurity on the backs of minorities in this country. Unloading any part of that burden is huge in giving them the needed bandwidth to not just survive, but to add their energy to fight for social justice. Not having to pay back prohibitive student loans allows people to pursue lower paying careers in the public sector as well, that adds to a collective strength taking on inequality and poverty, etc.
Bottom line though, there's no reason to be quiet about social justice while also promoting economic justice, because the right economic message short-circuits the programming that freaks white middle class people out about social justice, and gives us an opportunity to start rewiring.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)As I wrote elsewhere:
I'm not sure why some object so strongly to the notion that 20-25% of eligible voters can't be reached by the Democratic Party without the Democratic Party abandoning its base. That seems like a pretty obvious point. Someone posted an article from the Rude Pundit that makes that point. It's made in a less colorful way in this piece: "On Rural America: Understanding Isn't The Problem."
Trump didn't put forth any substantive policy positions, and I don't think many of his supporters were sitting around having nuanced discussions about trade or any other issue. If trade was such an important issue, Rob Portman wouldn't have kicked Ted Strickland's ass in Ohio. And the median income of Trump supporters is substantially higher than the median income of Clinton supporters.
Like Obama in 2012, Clinton lost the white vote by 20 points in spite of Trump being the most atrocious, most unqualified major party candidate in modern times. No Democratic candidate for president has won the white vote since LBJ, and that's not because Republicans are the party of sound economic policy.
Of course Democrats could do a better job of messaging, of making it clear that progressive politics is key to improving economic conditions.
Of course Democrats need to fight for campaign finance reform and Wall Street reform.
Of course Democrats need to do a better job of GOTV, fighting voter suppression, combating gerrymandering, and attempting to reach those who don't ever vote. Even small improvements in those areas would pay huge dividends in a nation that's becoming increasingly diverse and where the Dem candidate for president has won the popular vote in 6 of the last 7 elections.
But the fact is racism, sexism, misogyny, heterosexism, xenophobia and Christian supremacy take precedence for tens of millions of voters. It's not that 100% of them are unreachable, but the time and effort necessary to undo the brainwashing is time and effort that can be spent in much more productive, efficient ways.
It'd be one thing if most people were working from a set of agreed-upon facts (which is even less the case in this age of 24/7 infotainment with media personalities who say it's not their job to fact check). There'd still be disagreement over causes for and appropriate responses to those facts. But millions of people flat out deny facts while subscribing to patently false beliefs. Presenting them with facts has a tendency to backfire, as studies have made clear. The false beliefs become more ingrained. That's true across the political spectrum, but it's a matter of scale. While most everyone will cling to at least some false beliefs, there are those who simply live in an alternate reality. If you want to dedicate time to pulling people out of that alternate reality, more power to you.
I wrote more on this here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512621513
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Hopefully not *just* lately. 
Gothmog
(145,097 posts)It is sad but there is a segment of the voting population who can not be reached by the Democratic Party without abandoning the party's base which I am not willing to do.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)It's as if some think, with enough effort, the Democratic Party can achieve 100% support. That Republicans are putting forth a more accurate and substantive position on economic matters, and cultural/social bigotries play little to no role in Republicans winning the white vote every single election (it must be that persons of color and women don't care about economic issues). Everyone in the US will have a big kumbaya moment as soon as the Dems get better at economic messaging (and give up on sensible gun control). Nobody will continue to cling to patently false beliefs. All will be right with the world, or at least the US.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)why didn't HRC win?
Shouldn't our dominate message appeal to the most voters as possible? Last time I checked that's what is takes to win elections.
When I go in to a job interview I don't tell the prospective employer, "I don't give a fuck about your company, I just want the money". I tell them what they want to hear to achieve the outcome I desire. I don't lie but at the same time I realize if I want a seat at the table I cannot advertise my agenda as superior to the concerns of all others.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)Hillary would have won, period.
POC are pretty much the base of the party and you can;t win the party nomination or a general election without big majorities of POC.
If POC are already voting for Democrats, then telling them to "shut up" about policy issues that affect our lives is really a slap in the face, don't you think?
I'm not saying that so-called "identty politics" are the only thing that Democrats need to speak about, either.
You can be damn sure that Republicans are talking about it.
JI7
(89,244 posts)are not racist and just upset over trade and being abandoned by democrats............
a bunch of shit that doesn't follow facts.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Are you blaming her loss on POC?
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)should be sacrificed in order to get a few more vote in the Rust Belt?
Good luck winning under that scenario.
It's a deeper issue than HRC, now.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)should be sacrificed in lost elections in favor of fiery campaign promises?
JI7
(89,244 posts)people like trump.
it needs to be called out and shamed . not normalized and made acceptable as the media did .
ZX86
(1,428 posts)or get POC policy priorities implemented?
JI7
(89,244 posts)racist.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It doesn't. We got 2 million more votes that Trump did. I refuse to ignore that fact. How do we win? We fight back in midterms and call Trump out on ever dumb thing he does in order to keep his approval rating low and keep his voters from being excited during midterms. It's politics.
But I know damn well that if we decide to ignore minorities or start pandering to racist rustbelt assholes the party will damn sure lose my vote and many votes like mine forever. Period. It's a choice. Do we want to pander to racists or stand up for equality? Choose the racists, lose the minorities and women; chose the minorities and women, lose the racists. Cant have both of us. Not happnin. We will not shut up to allow racist ass trump voters to take over and just continue voting for the folks that threw us under the bus to get racist ass white votes.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)People on all sides of the divide seem to take the votes of POC for granted.
(and that applies a bit to the HRC factions too, who are really hurt that POC went back to voting at the levels that they normally do instead of the exceptional levels at which Obama got those votes...and Hillary actually did better than Bill, in that regard).
The fact is...no Democrat can't win elections WITHOUT our votes....
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Without our votes there is no hope for the future of the party
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Addressing concerns of poc.
The most vocal and embracing white pol in my lifetime at least.
I just don't think anyone cam say Hillary took those votes for granted.
I am not blaming poc who more than 90 percent vote for Hillary.
It seems dems need 98 percent to win the presidency.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think folks need a dose of reality before they can appreciate a real progressive. Let them get what they asked for with Trump for a while, with no progressives to blame for the effects of their rightwing policies. Then they will realize
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)Maybe it will go down to 26, 27% after CA is fully counted, but between supressed black turnout and Trump peeling off more Larino votes by far that McCain and Romney, it was a disaster. The DNC needs to double down and apppeal to us more, and like the OP says, I will never pander to flat out racists.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)in the wee hours, I misspoke... I meant black persons.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)and start fearing the future, they look for scapegoats. PoC, immigrants and Muslims WILL BE the scapegoats under another name, identity politics. It's all bullshit. People are looking for scapegoats for losing this election to an overwhelming group of men and women who want to "make ameriKKKa white again. We's it!!!!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Wish I was surprised.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)the pretense of a democracy for all people of ameriKKKa is finally dead. We can whine, recount, talk about popular vote, it's all salve for our grievous wounds. The racist, xenophobic, sexist voter has spoken and this is now a country for some people, almost exclusively white. Not, according to the new ameriKKKan majority, PoC, some liberal and progressive people, Muslims and immigrants. We are now the new ameriKKKan minority. All inclusive. Welcome to the 21st century Nazi regime. Led by the New Nazi Party of AmeriKKKa aka the republiKKKan party.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)THAT is what the NC motor voter issue is about. THAT is what a very angry Afr. American leader was talking about immediately after the election re: his state. THAT is what we're about to find out with Jill Stein, no doubt. The question is how extensive the the suppression was.
JI7
(89,244 posts)there were a few things she could have done differently. mostly have a more active campaign in states that were assumed to be blue.
but it's trump and the people who voted for him that voted based on identity. based on their white identity and building walls to keep others out and lists to ban people from coming here.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)And members of the media play along, while promoting false equivalencies and saying it's not their job to fact check.
Clinton is the only candidate who put forth substantive positions on economic matters or anything else. While at the same time advocating for equal rights, equal treatment and celebrating the fact that the Democratic Party is the party of diversity. But tens of millions are going to vote Republican no matter what, so all Dems can do is outnumber them.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Are you saying she didn't call out Trump's supporters as deplorables enough?
JI7
(89,244 posts)hurt her in the end.
Make a nice long list of all the reasons we lost after every election?
JI7
(89,244 posts)minorities will know they have to get out and vote .
but we sure as fuck know the racists who voted for trump will never support a party that wants equality for all.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)But not much concrete solutions. Calling out racism doesn't solve problems. It only identifies it.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)JI7
(89,244 posts)and claiming people who voted for an open racist who campaigned on racism are not racists but victims of minorities .
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Anyone who doesn't recognize the racism by now will never recognize it. The goal should be winning elections with politicians that represent POC priorities.
Calling out racism is not an end in itself and not nearly enough. If that were the case we would have solved these problems long ago. There are a lot of reasons why people vote against their own best interests or don't vote at all. This goes for people all races.
If we truly care about POC priorities we have to acknowledge the concerns of others. Claiming that Democrats can't win without our support without acknowledging we can't win without their support is not realistic.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Facts are facts. Blacks dont vote against progressivism because we hate white people and they might get a benefit from progressive policies. Neither do hispanics. Nor do most minorities. No, that's white folks who do that, loudly and proudly, so you might need to start working on them before 2035 when they might just no longer have a majority to pull this shit with. Backlashes can go both ways, good thing us minorities aint selfish or filled with vengeance in our hearts. White folks would lose their collective minds if we put an anti white democrat in office. Time for white progressives to work on white people for the next 50 years. We are done being fixed, or told that white votes matter more.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)Instead, white progressives seem to want to direct the fire back at the people who don't look like them as opposed to the ones who look like (and might even be) their parent, sibling, child, or neighbor...and that ain't cool!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I hold out hope that history will show them to be exactly what they are. Ignorant.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Telling White people they are racist for not prioritizing POC issues above their own is not working. As a person of color I have a list as long as your arm of all the injustices I have personally endured as well as what I have witnessed historically. But I really don't see the value in calling environmentalists racists because they're top priority is climate change. I don't see the value in calling college kids bigots because their top priority is student loan debt. I don't see the value in calling unemployed factory workers White supremacists because they're top priority is trade policy.
If I honestly thought calling out racism is all we needed to accomplish our goal I would be all for it. It's just not enough.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)2
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Not alienated.
What White people need to understand POC are the canary in the coal mine. We have always been the last hired and the first fired. Corporate America is running out of Black people and they're next.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Harder to make white folks listen to us than to other white folks. It is your turn white people. We done worked on it for hundreds of years, it's yalls turn now.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)I really don't think, "it's yalls turn now" is a viable solution.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
BlueMTexpat
(15,366 posts)do not WANT to be educated. Like Trump, they "know better" and their fundamentalist religious beliefs encourage and reinforce their very narrow worldview.
I can't post this article enough. http://forsetti.tumblr.com/post/153181757500/on-rural-america-understanding-isnt-the-problem
I note that at least one other person has posted a link to it above. As someone who was born and raised and still has family members exactly like this, they will continue to believe as they wish. Let them all rot and suffer under Trump ... and they'll still somehow believe that it is Dems who are their problem.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)But certainly you must admit that Trump DID prioritize POC "issues (mass deportations, a Muslim ban, stop and frisk)...it was those issues that put the crowd at fevered pitches at their rallies...Trumps voters have not been outright physically assaulting people because of trade issues.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Everyone knows that. Especially the people that voted for him. We have to offer a compelling alternative. Insulting them doesn't work. We must keep our eyes on the prize. Electoral victories.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)dissing the people that actually did vote for you (by and large) in order to kiss the ass of those who didn't vote for you is a losing strategy.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 27, 2016, 06:36 PM - Edit history (1)
There's a substantial portion of white America that simply can't be reached by the Democratic Party without the Democratic Party abandoning its base. Have you ever watched videos from Tea Party rallies, for instance? Dems aren't going to win those folks over. Period. It's not an economic messaging thing. It's a bigotry thing.
Again, see post #6 for some 'solutions'.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)wordpix
(18,652 posts)wordpix
(18,652 posts)suppression. We are about to find out how large that suppression is.
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)in swing states, with millions of voters purged from voter lists or required to produce ID's that weren't required before; early voting days preferred by minority voters were cut back, and polling places were eliminated.
They did everything they could to reduce minority participation, and they succeeded.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)when all this was going on?
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)So, we end up with things like this: https://thinkprogress.org/2016-a-case-study-in-voter-suppression-258b5f90ddcd#.bdaqncqkq.
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)and Rethugs were applying delaying tactics.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)For like fifty fucking years! Democrats and Republicans come and go nothing changes.
sheshe2
(83,728 posts)love seeing you here again.
I will not sit down and shut up, yes that is what they want.
To clarify further, yes I am white, I am also a woman, my words matter as well. I have been accused of some strange stuff. Some say I pretend to be a black woman, no not ever. Some say I should STFU and that I have no right to speak for them. I speak with them not for them. I listen.
Not happening, I will never shut up.
Missed your voice here, sing it sister.
I love you bravenak.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I kind of like the website being only open to star members right now. It's nice to see people here having real conversations again. And no. You better not ever shut up. It is our jobs to be vociferous and tell it like it is. I love you too, we will get through this and be stronger for it. Anybody telling you to stfu can fuck the hell off. I enjoy you.
sheshe2
(83,728 posts)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Worth it since the trolls are not really here right now.
sheshe2
(83,728 posts)I have been serving on 5 juries a day.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I have been on more. I try to be fair.
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts) pnwmom
(108,973 posts)
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)
Bucky
(53,987 posts)Most minorities ARE working class. Sorry, but we have a false dichotomy on that play.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Thats why
JCanete
(5,272 posts)bitterness for American history, and its institutional racism that has made white men the winners on the backs of women and minorities since the dawn of this nation and beyond, and I know just saying "winners" is glossing over horrible atrocities.
If your solution to that though, is to wage war with the useful idiots out of a grudge, rather than to recruit them to a common cause that actually offers us a window to undermine their most asinine misconceptions, we are probably fucked. There is a whole class that benefits from race baiting. We need to starve that beast, not feed it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)When you have shameful beliefs and display them, people will justifiably point out the facts. It is the beneficiaries of that privilege that must needs realize that their privilege is NEVER EVER EVER coming back and being angry and blaming others and lying to themselves about 'those PEOPLE TAKING THEIR JOBS' or building a wall, or deporting Muslims, will be in no ways effective and that if they continue to try to assert privileges that they no longer have, there will be disorder and violence. Don't say I never warned yall.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)needing to be punished. Those race baiting messages are effective because of poor education by design in this country. White conservatives are and have been hurting themselves even while they hurt people of color to a far greater extent, by buying into lie after lie that is effectively playing on their insecurities.
You want to actually stoke those insecurities, which is your right to want, but what do you or anybody win for it, except for certain destruction. How will you account for the next divide and conquer strategies that will pit people against each other on new grounds if you don't undermine the mechanisms.
The thing is, white privilege isn't something enough people will insist on holding onto if they are given an opportunity to actually be more financially secure. What good is that belief it if it isn't feeding them anymore? Enough of them will let it go if a better narrative tells them they can stop freaking the fuck out about immigrants and welfare; that they've been duped, but that there is a place for them to legitimately focus their frustration. And their children will be more receptive to counter messaging if that messaging isn't "your parents are fucking horrible people and so are you if you think like them."
I can't tell you to stop reviling these people who have wronged you and your loved ones and everybody else who your empathy extends to, but I personally think of them, and all of us, as products, rather than progenitors. If our goal were not certain destruction, I think we still could undo the programming with the right messaging.
By the way, I agree. The media's spin is pathetic. Having real pain is not the same thing as having a real point. They are absolutely confusing the need to listen to the pain, with their encouragement to listen to the solutions the white working class thinks it needs, because those solutions are horrible, and these people have no effing clue what is actually ailing them. This is the kind of shoddy, shallow journalism I've come to expect from main-stream media, but it serves the same purpose we've been discussing by feeding that fear, and continuing to point in the wrong direction.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)There are millions who will vote against progressive policies that will benefit them because they dont want the rest of us having a piece of the pie. You simply do not understand how pervasive racism is. Once you experience it, you will never again have such a dismissive view of what we 'racial folks' have to deal with day in and day out. You can ignore ut and pretend it dont matter. I cannot.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)No, I'm not completely wrong. As people were so willing to point out about the primaries, Sanders was pulling white voters, and out of party, and nothing about his platform was racist, and everything about his policies would have helped the poor and people of color. So whether they saw it or not, there was at least a portion of people who were voting for their economic security over their fears of losing white privilege.
What did I say that was dismissive, may I ask?
Also, yes people will do as you say, but not because of what you say. If they truly understood that they were screwing themselves, they would not be doing it. Its that they distrust the opposing messaging, which refuses to give them something they can actually understand and believe in. Telling them they are being racist and they are benefiting from white privilege almost certainly gets interpreted as "we are going to redistribute your scraps."
Why not tell them, we are going to make you and everybody else whole. And by the way, that racist messaging you were buying into wasn't doing that. It was keeping you down.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)equitable distrubution. Address the racist component clearly and with solutions or just dont bother. Because us BLACK voters will not go for it, not for a generic (white washed) policy. You can see that in the fact that Bernie got white democrats but the rest of us WERE NOT IMPRESSED WITH HIM. You wont get us with his policy. Find out why and FIX IT. Because continuing to push his policy when we already rejected it by telling us we are wrong about how generic it was and white centered it was will not get us to come over. But since white votes are lost by including blackstuff, you cannot de-generic his policy because it would lose too many white voters. Being intersectional will not ever be in yalls econimic justice so you guys keep trying to minimize the effects of racism to pretend that it will not effect the outcome of progressive policy. We have been through that. We do nit trust yall.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)who writes powerfully about continued racism in this country, endorsed Sanders, just as an example that his message did appeal to people who are focused on the issues that you are. You are right, black people didn't come out for him. The media didn't help him with name recognition, even when he was doing what no politician had previously been able to do, and the DNC establishment and their propaganda wing did everything in their power to suppress exposure to Sanders in the black community by labeling him the old white guy who has support among white male voters, trying to tear down his civil rights record, and whatever else they could do to get people to reject him out of hand. And assuming that a large population of black people didn't go beyond that rhetoric is not a condescension. I never bothered to look at Ted Cruz's policies. I never bothered to look at Trump's. If people I trust are already painting a picture of these people that fits with my expectations I'm not very likely to spend my limited bandwidth to follow up just to make sure.
That said, I'm sure that his messaging failed to resonate in communities of color. I'm not trying to say we shouldn't look at where it was unsuccessful. But I don't get when you take his policies that would directly help people of color to task, why you were totally on board Clinton's train. That shit, buying her empty rhetoric to the black community over the years, even after some of the harmful shit she's done, ala "super predators," tacit or direct support of institutions that have absolutely exploited people of color, from for profit prisons to a wall street that destroyed lives with sub-prime loans, makes no effing sense to me. I would prefer to be helped to understand, rather than sent on a vision quest without a guide, but if you aren't interested in wasting more time with me, that's fine.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Instead of seeing how he went wrong and fixing it the focus is on fixing US, and trying to convince us that his policies woukd actually help us SINCE we live in such a racist nation. If you cannot convince us that it would be equitably implemented, but instead want us to TRUST that it would be done properly without any reassurances, it is simply not workable.
It was not the medias job to convince black voters. He held his rallies in places where black voters do not EXIST in large numbers. His rallies were SUPERWHITE. His supporters angry and demanding of black voters. Said we had stockholm syndrome. Plus the use of rightwing memes against Hillary. Hai! The rightwing love memeing no group more than us blacks and to use their memes and attacks put his folks firmly in the camp that were were not fucking comfortable with.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)I can't speak to that. As to the general tenor and focus of attacks on Clinton by actual liberals, they are decidedly not Right Wing. The fact that a crazy man who ran as a Republican picked up on some of them and used them to hurt her, still does not make their origination right wing. While anybody going overlong about the emails or even burping a message about bengazi would have certainly been espousing right wing bullshit.
It is likely Sanders held rallies where he already had the support and would have people showing up. I can see a reason for that, but also accept the criticism. I'm not familiar enough with how rallies work to say that he should have held one where nobody or very few people would have showed up. Outreach for sure though. Campaigning and connecting to community leaders should have been done. I know there were some efforts, but maybe too little too late?
No, it was not the media's job to convince black voters. It was decidedly the media's job to make sure we didn't elect no socialist in this country. You don't even have to get marching orders to do that when you're all a bunch of out of touch millionaires anyway.
Sanders got some shitty supporters on board. What can I say about that but that he did it without pandering to them, without promising them racism in policy. This was going to result in clashing ideals and running into tone deafness of these people, the way I feel I run into tone deafness on this board when talking to good democratic people of means all the time. But you can't change them if you refuse to have anything to do with them, and the bottom line is, we could have alleviated some pain with Sanders policies. If you just looked at the economic policies themselves, people of color would have had their lives bettered. That would not excuse running away from speaking to racism in this nation, but Sanders didn't do that. Just to be clear, what Clinton was running on post primaries would have done some amazing good also. I was finally feeling good about our prospects.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Job of teaching them or changing their minds. They resist it far harder from us than they do the racist from each other. It is white progressives that need to take up the mantle and fix other white people. We're exhausted. Your turn.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)this post. We do need to do this work, and as a white male, I know that I'm privy to conversations that would never have been initiated had there been a black person in the room. Often not because the people I'm talking to even see themselves as racist, but because they think their perspective might be "misconstrued" as such. That means there's no conversation at all with people of color. These people live in their bubbles, and we're the only ones in a position to pop them.
But you don't want to actually tackle economic issues as a focal point, which would directly benefit people of color if done as recently prescribed, reduce stress on people at large, including people of color, which gives them an opportunity to recommit energy and resources to their communities, and brings down the heightened alert of white people who can't hear anything when they're at defcon 4.
The thing is, as I said previously, if these policies on their face had been "get us there and then we can do for you," you should absolutely have rejected them, but on their face, they would have done good and they would have brought people with prejudices along to unwittingly help undermine the forces that feed those prejudices.
Unfortunately, as much as I understand it, its not exactly a feasible solution to say, you go talk to them, we're busy fighting a war. That distresses me, not because you aren't justified, but because we are probably fucked, and things are not getting better any time soon.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We know that WE only get incremental progress if at all, it is others who think we can or will get it all quickly if only we did things their way. But we HAVE done ut their way before, each time we allow ourselves to vote for people who allow the policies to be initially applied to mostly helping whites just so we can get something at all. It happened with SS, black domestics got left out by FDR and black vets got fucked on the GI bill because they could not get mortgages because of redlining.
Understand, black folks study history more than any other group, and we do it in depth without college. We read about ourselves specifically while other only notice black history during black history month. You will not find a progressive policy in history that was mot done in a way to minimize benefites to blacks or harm them in some way to uplift white people. We just are not going for promises anymore, write us in or we just ignore it. Been fooled by our own party too many time to start buying indulgences at this point.
We know that the only thing that helps us is time and policy. We also know that including us reduces support for any policy. Do you understand how frustrating that is? Knowing that your color actutally makes people want to harm you and that they have had the power to choose not to do that but have always chosen to do so anyway?
Time. It will take time time time. White folks can only hold onto the majority for so much longer before they will find themselves a minority. It will then take some more time. But my grandkids and those of the dumb ass racist Trump voter will be living in a completely different america that my mother, or myself. I have basically already won by existing. They lose because they are losing the future that they want, they know that they are losing power every time a child is born because the chance that child is not white is now fifty fity. Not twenty/eighty like when they were young. They are fighting against the future and going down in history on the wrong side. My job is pointing that out, others can save them if they want, the results will end up the same regardless.
There will not be a white 'great awakening' on race. Not so long as they make excuses for each other and task minorities with the job of fixing the minds of the majority. It is a cop out thats been used since slavery. 'If only blacks acted like whites, then we could accept them', that has been the way it has been forever. We live in a catch 22. Cant act like what we are not treatedlime so they wont treat us like them until we are exactly like them but we can never be exactly like them so they treat us like shit and act lije it is because we are just so so so different. Of course we are different. We get treated different. Catch 22.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)Using the lens you just provided, one day I'd love to hear what excited you about Hillary, but the challenges you laid out are real.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Trump excited me for her. Oh boy did he ever. Would vote for her again against that lunatic. Or any other reub really. Obama really likes her, thats a good sign.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)I don't know how many times over the years I heard the old refrain about women "stealing" jobs away from men. The entire job market is heavily rigged against women of all backgrounds for the simple reason men like it that way so women are forced to be dependent on them while men get that all-important sexual access in return.
These white men don't even realize or care how much society is rigged in their favor. They rail against affirmative action yet they don't mind parts of it that favor them, such as veterans preference. They get pissed off at the very idea others have a shot at a decent life.
I wrote these people off years ago. You can't reason with people who will not listen to you.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)duffyduff
(3,251 posts)We can't convert these idiots. Let them rot.
And yes, these people around here are totally dismissive of the fact a WOMAN candidate for president got the most votes.
The problem is with the electoral college and possible vote rigging. The Democrats are not to blame.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Next time I hope we are not posting polls and depressing our own turnout by BASHING our own candidate on stupid meaningless shit.
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)
The thing is, white privilege isn't something enough people will insist on holding onto if they are given an opportunity to actually be more financially secure.
If this was true, the Southern Strategy would have fallen on its ass, Reagan would never have won, Bill would not have felt he needed to pander to those racists, Bush would have lost, Obama would have not have faced unprecedented obstruction, and Bernie would have beat Hillary in the primaries.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)not going after them. We basically said, "we understand that you're suffering and we're going to make it better, but that really is the way of the world. Its a necessary byproduct of progress, you see." You can tell me that that same bullshit worked for the Pubs except for two things...pubs sold them a scapegoat when we could have been saying look up not down! , and people who would have been receptive to an alternative weren't offered one by either party anyway.
JI7
(89,244 posts)it as if Trump did not campaign on racism and those who voted for Trump are the true victims of racism.
that's some fucked up shit we have going on.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
emulatorloo
(44,110 posts)and yes, it is very fucked up.
barbtries
(28,787 posts)i'm not sticking with a racist party that's for sure.
i think education is key. racism is not only destructive and divisive, it's stupid. there is no reason for it. i cannot imagine my party enlisting poor and/or white people by appealing to their racism. if that's the plan count me out, but i haven't seen that.
i think it's all about education and it's a steep mountain because of the way the ignorance is cooked into so many people.
democrats, liberals, progressives: we should all be together. every color and every walk of life.
sorry to be nit picky but there is a glaringly misspelled word in your title. forgive me, these things jump out at my eyes whether i feel like it or not.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)barbtries
(28,787 posts) bravenak
(34,648 posts) JCanete
(5,272 posts)
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)A diverse coalition of the working class and middle class can win a majority without appealing to racists. We are going to do it by pushing for a new economic and political system based upon the principles of social and economic justice. Don't believe me? Fine. But that's what we're proposing.
So how is this possible? Well, first is to appeal to people who vote for us and get them enthusiastic about the Democrats. Second is to appeal to those who like us but didn't vote for us and try to win them to our side. A side effect of this would hopefully be winning back any misguided person who voted for Trump, but it would not be much of a focus.
Beware the moderates and centrists however. They went for the "Bubba vote" before and they'll do it again. Joe Manchin, Joe Webb, Bill Clinton, etc. might slink out of the woodwork to bring back triangulation and racist dog-whistles. The Left will fight them.
brer cat
(24,556 posts)As I replied to Kev up thread, pandering to the racist, bigoted, misogynist "Make America White Again" voters requires us to reject our core values, which makes as much sense as shooting ourselves in the head to get rid of a headache. If that happened, the party would lose more than minority voters, they would lose a big chunk of us white voters who joined up to fight for justice for all.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)A national party is a BIG TENT party. We can have a message for ALL the people everywhere. My goodness, enough of the
"us vs. them" "either/or" mentality!!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)In AMERICA it has always been us vs them. Always. Stop pretending everybody is just like you. They are not. Being a them I can tell you honestly that I experience racist shit EVERYDAY. Since you do not experience it stop trying to tell others, me especially, how to DEAL with it. You have no idea how experiencing 35 years of racist americanism would personally affect you and change your world view. It has always been us vs them, and I have always been a them.
apcalc
(4,463 posts)
mdbl
(4,973 posts)I am sick of the democrats trying to work across the aisle with these weirdos. The only thing the democrats need to do is to figure out how to shame those that might be voting for repuglicans that have no sense of decency. It is the only way out. The last 30 years of BS they have been doing obviously doesn't work.
Squinch
(50,941 posts)side.
They are racists and if they don't want to be called tha stop being racists.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If they want to work with Trump I will not vote for a trump helper. I will vote for their primary opponent and start petitions to primary every damn one of them who does so.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)partisans of {redacted}. Do they actually exist? Possibly in a museum in Simi Valley, next to the waxworks Ron and Nancy . . .
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)That's not the case and honestly it's pretty offensive. Blue collar workers (no matter their race) in that region have lost manufacturing jobs and they are suffering. They didn't vote for Trump because of racism. They voted for Trump because he lied to them and promised to bring back their jobs. They just want to survive and be able to provide for their families. Democrats don't focus enough on jobs and the economy because there are too many damned distractions over things the rust belt workers are too busy trying to just survive to care about.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)White Americans are the sink where one can dump all the garbage which when put on anyone else would earn you the badge of Racist and Sexist.
JI7
(89,244 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Regardless, these are tens of millions of people who, if the Party is to achieve future viability, must be communicated with, luggage and all.
JI7
(89,244 posts)Same ones who get outraged at people like rev Wright saying something negative of whites even though he lived through legal and continuing discrimination by them.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...it's been a crazy thing to watch happen here over the past year.
emulatorloo
(44,110 posts)As gollygee points out below, not all rust belt white workingclass voters voted for Trump. OP is not addressing the entire white working class, only those who voted for Trump.
Speaking of garbage, claiming liberal DU'ers are in thrall of some "Static Party Conservativism" stinks.
It is patently false, as is your strawman version of the OP.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)You cannot lop off tens of millions of voters and expect to get anywhere. It won'be easy, and purifying a portion of blue collar Democratic voters won't make it any easier. Note in this thread that the OP said Trump is a racist (true), and voters who vote for racists are themselves racists (true to a large degree).
Either way, a viable Democratic Party WILL deal with them positively if it is to survive. If the Party chooses to dig in and disavow and condemn this large part of the electorate, then it is indeed posessed of a static conservatism.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Prove it false and I will shut up. But it's true so you cannot. Stop DEFENDING Trump voters just because they are white like you and hearing them called what they are offends you. I neversee these defenders running around telling trump folks to stop calling me nigger, so I wonder why folks are telling me to stop calling folks who send me 'die nigger!' messages are somehow 'hurt' by manufacturing. Bullshit.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)
She isn't talking about all white voters in the Rust Belt. She's talking about white voters who voted for Trump in the Rust Belt.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)... that engages in racist bigoted speech and deeds?
The racism and bigotry were a fundamental part of tRump's campaign.
If you embrace racism and bigotry so that you can get ahead ... you are still a racist and a bigot.
A large proportion of white people in the rust belt did not vote for tRump; they voted for Clinton, voted third party or didn't vote.
Truly, what is the world could you call people voting for racist/ bigoted policies ... ?
JI7
(89,244 posts)Was bigotry are bigots themselves ?
And thst voted for pro trade repubkicans like Johnson and portman do let's not pretend it's something it's not.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Voters. Every single post I see arguing to defend people from charges or racism and sexism presents a false context. Every single one. Now how does that happen?
emulatorloo
(44,110 posts)Maybe not intentional but that's what it boils down too.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Every single time someone posts something on defense of sexism or racism the context has been stripped away- and it's not an accident.
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)People are in real economic despair, and Democratic leaders told them 'America is Greater Than It's Ever Been!'
democrank
(11,092 posts)It`s dead wrong to say we have to "ignore the concerns of minority voters" in order to appeal to rural white voters. We can, and should do both.
Uponthegears
(1,499 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:01 AM - Edit history (1)
that either by using a definition of white working class narrowed (or broadened, I am not sure which) to support your argument, or by imputing attitudes to white liberals and/or working Democrats which do not exist in a significant percentage of these groups, you are creating a division among Democratic Party constituencies which does not exist. I hope that it is unintentional. If it is not, I can only ask that you go back and study the history of the liberation movement.
First, allow me to suggest (or perhaps agree with you) that there are essentially NO Trump voters who we should be trying to bring into the fold. Anyone who placed a check next to the name of Donald Trump is an irredeemable racist. Because he offered nothing but hate during his campaign (blaming oppressed groups for white's "malaise" and offered no solutions other than to punish the already oppressed), and because Hillary (notwithstanding the perhaps fatal flaws of her campaign) was certainly no worse than every (male) candidate who came before her, every single vote for Trump was a vote for racism, misogyny, xenophobia, and religious hatred OR (and forgive me for not wholeheartedly accepting the argument as the sole cause) was simply a vote cast for no other reason than unbridled misogyny. As others have said, fuck them. They are either too stupid or too evil to be worth the effort needed to save them.
Here I feel is where we part ways. Trump voters are not what I consider white working class. I will be the first to admit that I do not spend much of my time talking to white people and I am, shall we say, "genetically and culturally disqualified" from understanding the white psyche, but voters making $75K (which would be about $110K family) and up are not what I call "working class." Trump voters are those white folks sitting out in the suburbs with his and hers Glocks to protect themselves from the mythical "'thug' hiding in the bushes waiting to steal the big screen TV," terrified that a Boeing 757 will come crashing into the shopping mall, or "one of "those" black kids will date their son or daughter, or that they won't be allowed to "cure" their gay child. Let me repeat, fuck them.
The working class are those people who used to make a good living without a college education, who used to have health insurance through work but (thanks to the USSC gutting of the ACA) are now forced to pay outrageous premiums out of their own pocket, who live paycheck to paycheck (and whose new low wages are stagnant - economic growth in "Rust Belt" states only shows someone is getting rich, not who), and who (apologies to die-hard Hillary supporters) have no interest in being re-educated so that they can start a new life after 40 y.o. making two-thirds of what they used to make with no benefits, who have voted majority Democratic for their whole lives, and who are looking for someone in power who has a REAL plan (i.e., not Trump) to make things better. Those voters are redeemable. (What's more, they come in all colors, nationalities, religions and, might I add, it is fucking offensive to say otherwise. Shocker, some of us actually work.) Those are the voters who came out for Hillary in the same percentage they came out for our President but who were so uninspired by her "solutions" and lulled into complacency by the "certainty" of her win that they failed to come out to vote in the same numbers.
If we define the working class as those voters, a number of your arguments need to be re-examined. The most important of those is this one: "In order to get those voters you must needs to throw black folks and Hispanics and others under the bus." That is incorrect. To claim that equality (which, IMHO, must include the still unfinished task of liberation) comes on the back of the voters I've just described as WWC, or, conversely, that WWC can advance only on our backs, is to accept that we draw from the same finite share (pool) of wealth, power and privilege. That ignores what both my mentors, and more mainstream civil rights advocates like Dr. King, knew, i.e., that the TRUE reservoir of wealth, power and privilege is held in the hands of the rich AND that in this reservoir, there is more than enough to achieve BOTH equality AND advancement.
Here lies the problem of the vilification economic justice, the casting it as the enemy of social justice. IF you are unwilling to call for REAL economic reform, for the distribution of wealth to its real creators, etc., then we really are fighting with the WWC (my definition)over the meager slice of the pie the 1% has put on our plate. While that is a war I agree we can win if we play it right, it is not the war we should be fighting. While we can never forget that Dr. King was murdered by a racist acting on behalf of other racists, we should also remember that the reason he was sitting in a Memphis motel on that history-changing day was to march for WORKERS, black and white, in the Memphis sanitation department.
As I said, I may not know much about white people, but I know that some white guy making $40K is not the guy holding me back.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I was referring to trump voters mostly, but honestly, it IS white voters, period, that are PROTECTING that pie from the rest of us getting a piece, even if that means they go hungry. Economic justice advocates these days REFUSE to account for racism when they make their projections or even consider it when applying their ideology to the real world.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Gothmog
(145,097 posts)
ismnotwasm
(41,975 posts)I can't say I wasn't warned by some in the AA community right here at DU, that certain Democrats, who absolutely count on minority voters every election to win, know and understand this until it is no longer convenient. Then remember that big-ass bus? Yeah.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I bet they pretend that there was nothing wrong with it, once Trump gets in there good and kills Obamacare, SS, and Medicare; THEN they will act like they always supported democratic policies. Fuck them
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)You can't convert them. They have to lose everything to even have a shot of listening.
The suggestion we need to pander to these dudes is just naive to the extreme.
There is no room in our political party for racists and sexists. Period.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
treestar
(82,383 posts)There is no point to that
DemonGoddess
(4,640 posts)this block of voters that supported Trump, was lost to the Democratic Party over 50 years ago. Sure, we can TRY to appeal to them and educate them, but NOT at the expense of everyone else.
We need to do what the Rethugs have done, and start taking things from the bottom UP. Reverse those numbers in the statehouses and governorships.
We also need to be aware that in some areas, what we would like to see, as liberals, simply doesn't fly. There is a REASON Blue Dog Democrats are helpful to have in office. Taylor the picking of candidates regionally to appeal to the moderate and conservative voters as well.
I was disappointed in the outcome of our governor election in Indiana, but the silver lining here, is the Democratic Party in Indiana is gaining strength. After YEARS of being very, very weak. We have much to do on local levels to really effect change, but it can happen.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think that Trump will give them exactly What they voted for. They just dont realize how much it will hurt them. Trump thinks us blacks have nothing to lose, and I am THANKFUL for it. As their jobs move away over the next five years watch for them to blame obama. I am glad I have nothing to lose, he wont come for my stuff.
DemonGoddess
(4,640 posts)aunt to five Muslim young adults, and mom of a gay person, having daughters, there is much for us to lose. This group of assholes that misguided crybabies voted for, against their OWN interests, will cost us, as a nation, very much.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'd rather have built on what we had, but I see we are going to have to start rebuilding from ashes. I will just need tospend four years shaming them and pointing out how stupid their King is making us all look.
DemonGoddess
(4,640 posts)the core values we all believe in, support, and vote for.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They are super happy now, but once their benefits are gone they will be sad like us. I'm a future person who always keeps moving forward. I believe we can win the midterms. Time to work on that by making Trump lose his mutha fucking mind with this presidenting shit.
DemonGoddess
(4,640 posts)and getting under his oh so very thin skin
mcar
(42,300 posts)Nice to seen you here, bravenak!
Nice to see you tookebob
(499 posts)But not now. Or in the future.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)No throwing people of color under the bus! No luring racists! I don't want to be involved in a party that thinks that racist people are a group to woo.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)emulatorloo
(44,110 posts)these "post civil rights" folks talk awfully authoritatively, but they haven't been right about a damn thing in the last couple years.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)jake335544
(53 posts)Stop this either/or BS, as if we need more super complex market-based "solutions", and media pandering to target specific demographics.
If we get our Dem reps to stop the free trade deals, our local Dem govmts to raise the min wage to a living wage, push for local "houses for the homeless" initiatives, push for guaranteed govmt-job-transition-to-private-job programs at the local level, local participatory budgeting, pushing for single-payer health care at the state level for now, explain to our Dem reps how the federal debt isn't a problem, etc etc etc
All these things help *everyone*. But too many of us Dems would rather ramble about "social issues vs. economic issues" as if the solutions above aren't solutions to social issues.
liquid diamond
(1,917 posts)fighting against this proposal since DU came back online. I can't fucking believe some people here are lobbying for outreach to white racists. I bet those who are doing so are white too.
The white working class are a lost cause. I look forward to Trump fucking them over in the next four years, and I'll laugh my ass off and tell them they got what they wanted.
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)wordpix
(18,652 posts)since their companies moved overseas, we can woo them back but we're in a vicious cycle where the repukes are in charge of Congress and won't pay for the massive infrastructure bill we need.
pansypoo53219
(20,969 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)They never are
BlueProgressive
(229 posts)"to ignore the concerns of minority voters to get white 'Rust Belt' voters"
nor do I see anyone proposing to appeal to those voters based upon anything other than ECONOMIC issues-- issues which are of concern to minorities and women of the working class, as well as white males of the working class.
Many of these voters can be won on OUR ECONOMIC ISSUES...
and there certainly is no need, nor should we, shrink from promoting our causes of social justice at the same time.
To say it's a choice of either this, or that, is a false choice and strawman.
We can and should do both.
Economic issues are a matter of CLASS, Not Race.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I see them calling it 'identity politics' in a disparaging way and pretending people vote for racists because they have economic issues. Hillary won the working class so thats obviously bullshit.
PufPuf23
(8,764 posts)One would hope that effective Democratic leadership would come to be that brings people together and meets the wants and needs of different demographics.
Racism is unacceptable in general and disgusting when used to gain power by any politician.
napi21
(45,806 posts)I disagree that the Dems have ignored the rustbelt concern. I think what happened is that the Con told them lies about bringing their jobs back and they believed him. The Con nor anyone else is able to bring all those union steel, iron work, and other manufacturing jobs back, and even IF some, like the appliance makers would come back, they will NEVER pay what they did before.
I really feel bad for all the people who've been taken in by his lies, but over the next 4 years, they will realize they've been had, and they will return to the Dem Party that has always tried to look out for their welfare.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And I think we never do do both. To get to them we need rhetoric matching Trump's her rustbelt voters made less money than his did so it aint all about the money.
See, Trump won white people while using the nastiest racist rhetoric used in my lifetime, the KKK endorsed him as did many neonazi groups. So was it really about money? Or was it about those lazy blacks, rapist mexicans, building a wall, shutting women up and deporting muslims. Because you see, that's what you have to do to get them excited. See how excited they were to beat up black people at Trump rallies? Are you willing to go there to get votes? And even if you do go there it wont get those votes for you. They know who wants to make america white again.
napi21
(45,806 posts)I grew up in PA. STEEL COUNTRY. I still lived there when Bethlehem Steel, and US Steel closed their factories. Many of the people I knew well lost their jobs, good jobs where they made really good money. A lot of them were in their late 40's and couldn't find any job, let alone one paying comparable wages. Lots of people who still live there were young then but still looked forward to getting job in a factory..like dad did. THEY are still kidding themselves into believing those kind of jobs will return one day. The Dems SHOULD'T lie to them like the Con did, because they will soon realize he was lying to them and they'll be more pissed off then they were before the Con came on the scene. I have herd some Dems say the solution to some of the problems is rebuilding our infrastructure, and I think that's true. For the younger crowd, I have to turn to the many, many employers who state they have jobs to fill but none of the applicants have the skills necessary to do what they need. SOMEBODY, and I'm not even sure who, started the fiction that EVERYBODY NEEEDS TO GO TO COLLEGE! We need to promote tech schools. Job seekers do need some education beyond high school, but I believe lot of them want the hands on kind of jobs that are learned in tech school.
Sure there's a way to promote rebuilding the infrastructure, promoting tech school, (both would be helpful to all different races), and requiring police departments to be retrained on how to be a PEACE OFFICER", which is what they are supposed to be.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I had a guy here the night after the election, he voted Trump. By the time he left here he was fucking depressed that he believed one word the guy said. I didn't hit him with the 'you must be racist' but I did let himknow how hurtful it was that he ignored it. He said 'I wont let himdo snything wrong.' Poor guy. I had to break it to him that he had no control over that maniac.
I asked him why. He said, and I quote, "Because Hillary created nafta which killed manufacturing."
I laughed.
He said, "What so funny?"
I told him he was so wrong it was funny.
Then I asked if he went to college. Yes. He graduated with a degree in mechanical engineering. I had suspected that he was a college grad.
I asked him if he had google.
He said yes.
I gave him my ipad where I had googled 'who negotiated nafta'
Google said it was GHWB
His face. It turned so red. I then googled trump bankruptcy. Then Donald Trump cannot read. By the time he left he was hugging me and thanking me for informing him about nafta. I reminded him that google told him and would have done so sooner had he only asked.
I have now decided that nobody actually looks for a fact or a but of info. He said he got his news from facebook, from his friend's and family's feeds. Taa daa!
That's why Hillary lost the rustbelt. Even college educated americans dont bother to google facts.
Lucky Luciano
(11,253 posts)The deplorables will always be deplorable of course.
...and don't forget that Obama won those people over - we should be able to pick up some non-deplorable rust belt people.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We can let them slide on into the tent when they learn what Trump is. Honestly, we just need to no tear down our own candidates in the future and pick candidates that the media will cover without undue malice.
We got two million more votes. We just need to get them in the swing states next time. Not being on defense will help alot in the midterms. We did better in midterms under republicans in the past and will this time too. This time WE WILL BE PROTESTING them, having our Tea Party. I am hopeful and kind of looking forward to fighting Trump and trolling the fuck out of republicans.
yodermon
(6,143 posts)When whites are a minority. Provided the country even survives Trump & Co. til then.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'll only be sixty!! Thats still kinda youngish. I'll have a few years of peace before I die hopefully.
I think we will go back and forth between the whitelash and the blacklash for a few decades then settle on out. Too many reagan voters still hanging on who taught their kids about welfare queens with caddies.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)When whites are a minoriry you can bet your ass that there will be more conservatives among other races,. And dont think Republicans are too stupid to adapt either. Bottom line: There will always be conservatives, always.
This is why I, as a Liberal, am so deadset against giving up on working people.
Lucky Luciano
(11,253 posts)...small number of people.
TheKentuckian
(25,023 posts)A vain attempt to appeal to some Republicans or another.
To look tough!
Too busy sucking up for dough.
It's all lip service for everyone, reality is they aren't doing shit.
It's too hard!
Skeert!
Balance approach.
Some concerns have no actual political solutions and as such nothing has to be done except mouth words. Stuff like "a national conversation on white privilege" is not a policy prescription.
LexVegas
(6,052 posts)
okieinpain
(9,397 posts)
get the red out
(13,461 posts)Their minds have been poisoned by Talk Radio and RW Religion. Surely the Democratic Party can see this?
David__77
(23,369 posts)...
get the red out
(13,461 posts)I was referring to those under the RW spell, not all rust belt voters. Sorry if I was unclear. Hell, I am a liberal Kentuckian!
David__77
(23,369 posts)I suppose that it may be helpful to define what is meant by getting "white 'Rust Belt' voters," and what would be entailed by attempting to do such. If this means not formulating and advocating for a policy agenda that addresses employment, housing, and criminal justice discrimination against various groups, then I would oppose getting "white 'Rust Belt' voters."
I think that the Democratic Party can adopt and campaign for a policy agenda that addresses employment, housing, and criminal justice discrimination against various groups, increases the rights of employees in the workplace (including the right to collectively bargain), and changes the terms of foreign trade relations and domestic investment. While I imagine that there would be significant disagreement regarding what such a policy program should look like, I see no reason why all of those areas cannot be addressed in a comprehensive program.
Oneironaut
(5,491 posts)That is, sneering at those 'dumb, knuckledragging rust belt idiots' and advocating ignoring them. I tend to think they wouldn't want to vote for any candidate who would do such a thing
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Response to bravenak (Original post)
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