2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumFuck the braindead notion that we can say "Fuck the white working class."
The election of Trump had many causes: A qualified but nonetheless flawed Democratic candidate marred by the email scandal; the electoral college; racism; sexism; SHIT corporate media; a completely piece of SHIT Democratic National Committee; a flawed Democratic strategy and lack of the right message; a general desire among some people simply for ANY kind of change; failure of too many of our voters to actually come out and vote.
However, the MAIN reason is because of the working class economic anxiety in the upper midwest, and that is the indisputable fact. The party and our candidate simply did not connect with these voters, many or most of whom were traditionally Democrats and many of whom still are by party registration. And they have left us.
The economy, as always, was the NUMBER ONE ISSUE of the campaign, and working class small town America has been economically RAVAGED. They are rightfully angry, and many of them feel they have no future and that we do not understand or respect their plight nor their culture. Again, MANY of these people, in some places the majority, used to be Democrats. And the party forgot how to talk to them. The party needs to talk to them again and offer compelling ideas and economic hope for them again. AND, the party needs to respect and support their culture. It is just fine to respect and support the very long hunting heritage in rural and small town America.
Working class America doesn't give a flying shit about pure food laws and solar power when it needs JOBS. JOBS JOBS JOBS is the NUMBER ONE ISSUE. And they also want straight STRONG talk and leadership, not meely-mouthed pathetic wimpy WEAK SHIT that is not leadership.
And this is by no means an either/or situation. The Democratic Party is and will always be the party that fights for the rights and betterment of EVERYONE in America, full inclusion, and will always stand strong against bigotry wherever it exists. BUT, being the "Party of the People" means, in fact, ALL THE PEOPLE including white rural and small town people.
JOBS JOBS JOBS and creating an economy that works for EVERYONE is the issue that transcends all else because social justice can not happen without economic justice. Social justice matters little if you don't have a job and can't make a decent living. And ALL people, regardless of race, color, gender, or creed are deeply impacted by the corporate oligarchy that works for the 1% and doesn't give a damn about anyone else.
Want to know how to win? Listen to Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren today and FDR and Harry Truman in the past. BE STRONG! SPEAK WITH CONVICTION! SPEAK CLEAR! MAKE THE ECONOMY THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE ACROSS THE BOARD! AND BRUTALLY ATTACK THE CORPORATE OLIGARCHS AND THEIR REPUBLICAN SERVANTS AT EVERY TURN. These are the issues that BIND us all.
Offer people JOBS JOBS JOBS and tell them just how you are going to create them so they feel they have a FUTURE instead of economic DESPAIR. Do that, and we win again because right now the party is like a self-inflicted deaf, dumb, blind, and brainless person wandering aimlessly through the political desert without a message for ALL the people.
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dawg
(10,621 posts)They aren't coming back, but enough voters were willing to believe the big lie to tilt those states to Trump.
Hillary made actual policy proposals that would've helped those people. Trump lied to them.
What was Hillary supposed to do? Tell them lies of her own?
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)First, hear me clearly. Clinton didn't run a bad campaign, but it wasn't good enough. Her policy proposals were not front and center and clear. Her MAIN message was the anti-Trump message. This is indisputable. Not just she, but the ENTIRE PARTY did not have a clear and compelling enough economic message.
Next, no one is the rust belt gives a shit in hell who was most to blame for the jobs leaving. And remember, CLINTON signed NAFTA and Obama pushed the TPP night and day. They see BOTH parties to blame, and they are largely right.
Now they want the problem FIXED. They don't want to hear the shitty talk about "those jobs are never coming back" and they don't want to hear about being re-trained for jobs that don't exist. In fact in some places the jobs HAVE started to come back because transportation costs are better for companies who make things right here rather than China.
They want to hear that someone is going after the SHIT trade deals. Trump said it CLEARLY. They want to hear about JOB CREATION. Trump said it CLEARLY. They want to hear about fixing Washington and having a government and economy that works for everyone. Trump said it CLEARLY. Sure Trump is full of shit, but he SAID IT CLEARLY even he didn't mean it or can't really do it.
And YES, we can bring back manufacturing if even just on a small scale at first. YES we can support family farmers. YES we can increase biomass production jobs in rural America. YES we can increase wood products jobs in rural America. YES we can increase small tech startups in rural America. YES we can increase tourism in rural America. YES we can increase outdoor rec jobs in rural America. YES we can fix the infrastructure in rural America creating millions of jobs. There is a lot we can do, and they want to hear what we CAN do in clear, strong, concrete terms.
dawg
(10,621 posts)Manufacturing is on its way out. It isn't going to China. It isn't going to Mexico. It's going to be automated.
3d printing technology, alone, will eliminate hundreds of thousands of jobs.
There will still be a few jobs in manufacturing for humans, but nothing like the days the rust belt longs for.
You state your opinion and then say that it's indisputable. I dispute it!
Hillary talked *real* policy all the time. At every campaign event and every speech she gave. The media simply wouldn't cover it. People didn't care.
They wanted the lies. They wanted "Build a wall!".
That didn't work for the ancient Chinese and it isn't going to work now.
All those things that you say Trump said CLEARLY. They were clearly easily refuted LIES! The press did not do it's job. (At least the television press.)
We do need to look at new ways of messaging. Not because our message is wrong, but because it is being blocked and distorted by the corporate media.
Gothmog
(144,939 posts)
JHan
(10,173 posts)Every gatdammned word.
people want to be lied to.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)Tens of millions of dollars in "Donald Trump is not qualified" ads was a pathetic campaign strategy for the "most qualified candidate in history."
Your analysis is for ME right on the mark.
But, you can't blame them for being scared to DEATH about what President Obama is doing and that's taking their beautiful, glorious and oh so sexy guns away from their cold, gun-loving hands ....
Wait, what?
You mean after all that cater-walling, crying, lying by tRump and his lover the NRA, and those who were racist POS and calling Pres. Obama the N-word for 2 terms---8 years, and he didn't take their guns away 
nolabels
(13,133 posts)Almost every time new forms of technology and innovative processes are invented or formulated a net job increase ensues.
The wall that will need to be built is the one around the internet. The uber, the ones who want to keep controlling the levers will continue to fail at this endeavour at controlling the buttons that can't be seen.
And a the neoliberal faction that held the Democratic party captive is on the wane
Mosty our group of self-appointed leaders were being reactive and strutting around like they were always correct. Well the little chink in the armor has been exposed yet again for the second time in twenty years. Us of the majority who were abandoned by our leaders for some corporate trinkets now have nothing left to lose while we tell them how it's going to be
Maybe some like being on the defensive and it's hard to tell. Yet knowing it's not a winning strategy it's still played like an ingrained instinct.
When the one comes with the fire in the belly we will know it, till then continue to stare at your navel.
dawg
(10,621 posts)New jobs *will* be created from new technology, yes. But that's not what these rust belt voters were supposedly clamoring for.
They rejected the party that offered them re-training and education in order to fill those potential new jobs.
They rejected the party of green energy, which is one of the more promising fields for potential economic growth.
They chose, instead, to believe that Donald Trump, of all people, could roll back the clock and revive their old coal mining and assembly line jobs. That's delusional, and Hillary was right not to promise that to them.
Of course, all of that presupposes that they were really motivated by "jobs" and not just racism and nativism in the first place.
Our message isn't wrong. It's just being drowned out.
nolabels
(13,133 posts)Firstly of what little choice there was we still didn't get our choice as a majority. Secondly now the Uber has to deliver on the place the they have ascended, and in which to me, doesn't look too likely. Unless Trump figures out how to engage and subdue an aggressor in a military conflict his stuff will be cooked. All of of his other avenues are moribund.
As to anyone rejecting anything, there was no such thing, the election was a fool's errand and surprise to many. The majority didn't choose anything. Another technicality from an obtuse rule written two-hundred and forty years ago in some back room has insured property owners they are more equal under the law and winners of their just rewards, Donald Trump.
The extra people in those few states who voted for Trump and put him over the top wanted change not more lip service (that has been the republican plan for the last eight years). They might now even get some change but i am also willing to bet it's not the kind they wanted. And quite aptly, you cannot blame the rest of us for those who listened to sirens song.
On the other hand, cultivating relationships with multinationals and banksters did not win the day or the hearts either. We, the people voting, mostly didn't get to chose who was going to be running. The self-appointed choosers did that for us. I personally don't feel remorseful, i did what i could and maybe others got more of what they wanted however delusional it might be. That don't indicate they will be able to keep it or even want it after a while. I also see no need for anyone to apologize for Sen. Schumer's or DWS transgression, just figuring out how we can put them in the back seat should be more the adequate. More than anything though, if the country is not run with steady hand turmoil will mount.
To me, the road ahead looks like a detour, it might be weird way to get there but knowing you are bigger the the problem is half the battle
AgadorSparticus
(7,963 posts)I was listening to NPR this morning and there was a segment about the future of commercial truck drivers. That is a high paying job that they are expecting to be wiped out with the rise of automated, driverless vehicles. They said this is not something they are expecting to see in 15 years. They are expecting to see this in 5-10 years.
I thought of the angry Trump supporters. It is going to get worse as we move further into automation. The job Marley had been changing for 20 years. And like you said, they don't want to change with it. They want to be angry and for someone to tell them what they want to hear.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)"The most qualified candidate in history" failed to sell those qualifications whatsoever, and focused her entire strategy on trying to disqualify her opponent. A very curious strategy.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)This coincided with the administration's embrace of crackpot Milton Friedman economics, the PATCO firings which undercut the social contract by decimating unions, the wholesale destruction of pensions thanks to ERISA loopholes and the opening up of the 401(k)s to more workers, the wholesale outsourcing of jobs.
I was screaming bloody murder about this at the time. However, the white males continued to vote for Reagan and GOP thereafter. These guys are beyond hope.
The OP is just nonsensical because it denies history. You can't change people's mindset that has been ingrained since childhood.
Yavin4
(35,421 posts)There's a track on that album titled, "My Hometown". It's about a factory town shutting down. That song came out in 1984. That's 32 fucking years ago. Factory jobs are not coming back.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)The time to have raised a stink was 35 years ago. I did then. Nobody listened because almost everybody was in the tank for Ronald Reagan.
Years and years later, after years and years of wrongheaded votes, it is time to just write these people off. They are not the majority of voters anyway.
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)It was bad in 1984, but it has become far worse since then. Especially after NAFTA.
Here are some current stats:
1) The fact that more than half of this country makes less than 30k per/year ought to be alarming to everyone.
The middle class is actually disappearing. As the online publication Washington’s Blog notes, 51 percent of U.S. workers in 2014 made less than $2,500 a month before taxes—which is below the poverty line for a family of five.
http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/more_than_half_of_all_americans_make_under_30000_dollars_a_year_20151027
2) Our country's largest employer is Walmart.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/08/22/ten-largest-employers/2680249/
3) Pockets of neoliberal economic devastation exist in many towns, cities, regions, and even entire states, as evidenced by population decline in 7 of them. People are migrating out in search of better job opportunities. This situation has been particularly hard on college educated millennials. Everyone that I know who saw their children go off to college, currently don't have them living anywhere nearby. This is because these young people can't find jobs in their home states that pay enough to pay down their student debt(s). My own daughter is one of them. She now lives and works in NYC.
http://bangordailynews.com/2015/12/22/news/state/maine-one-of-7-states-with-population-declines-in-2015/
Not good. Not good at all.
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)If you think this can't happen (not necessarily to you personally, but to your area in general) think again. If you live in an area with a healthy job market, it may take longer, but sooner or later, "neoliberal economic sacrifice zones" (as Chris Hedges calls them) will eventually find it's way to a neighborhood near you!... Woohoo! Fun to be had by all!!!
But seriously though, the American Empire is going through a slow but steady collapse, and I'm not really sure if we'll be able to save it. Even if we reverse course entirely, it may be too late. We might be able to slow it down though, so that instead of our grandchildren (or great grandchildren(?) bearing the brunt of it, we could put this kind of scary future off just a little longer. Sadly though, we are probably eventually going to bring down the whole rest of the world with us, due to fact that we are much more globally interconnected than former dying empires were. That is-- if climate change doesn't wipe us out first.
Sorry to be such a Debbie Downer, but I just call em as I see em... 
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)It is just totally wrongheaded.
dogman
(6,073 posts)There are also the building trades members who have suffered since the Great Recession. Many voted Rump since they felt they have been ignored by the Democratic Party. As Union influence has waned and corporate influence has risen, many have joined the "Burn it down" mindset. Hillary needed to deliver her message to those people. Sadly many were fed up with her by that time and would not listen anyway. In their desire to destroy a populist movement they may have destroyed their chance to speak to those people.
PatrickforO
(14,559 posts)When I think of my own purchasing power and how it has dramatically declined since the 1990s, it makes me sick. I blame the 'free trade' policies which were never about moving goods and services over international boundaries - we could already do that just fine. Nope. These 'free trade' agreements are about moving capital over international boundaries. The idea that a factory can move its jobs from Flint, MI to someplace like Indonesia, get tax breaks and even be able to 'offshore' the profits so they DON'T EVEN PAY US INCOME TAX. Like GE and numerous others.
Basically, the working class has gotten fucked since 1948 when Taft-Hartley passed and it was no longer legal for unions to strike in sympathy with one another. Because, I'll tell you, this 'primacy of shareholder' theory where the CEO of a publicly held company is ONLY expected to increase value for shareholders (at the expense of the workers, the consumers, the community and the world environment, including the climate) is FUCKED. Without workers there can be NO profit, so if we all put our hands in our pockets for a few weeks and resisted the massive pressures put on us individually and as a group by corporate enforcers, we'd get some action. But, gosh, that's now illegal...
So now, I get to go to the store and pay and pay and pay. More and more and more. For less and less and less. I've got shitty, rationed healthcare with financially crippling copays. I have no real economic security because my employer can fuck with me at will - gee, I live in a 'Right to Work' state! Talk about an anti-worker concept.
And the people in my state just overturned an amendment that would keep our private prisons from profiting from the slave labor of prisoners.
The ice caps are melting at a truly scary rate and in ten years this world may not be recognizable, but we STILL pander to shitheads who think the world is 6000 years old and climate change doesn't exist.
So...I think you get it...I'M FUCKING MAD.
The neoliberal economic philosophy of 'privatize, deregulate and gut New Deal programs' purposely rapes our treasury and prevents OUR tax dollars that WE pay into OUR government that is supposedly OF, BY and FOR us, the people from being used for anything that actually makes our lives better. Instead we fund war, 'defense,' massive domestic spying and other useless shit that we don't need.
And, instead of getting rid of the Federal Reserve Act of 1912 and coining our own money like it says in Article II of our Constitution, we foolishly pay back money we should 'owe' ourselves to bankers with interest.
So, because of this SHIT we live in a world of artificially created scarcity, with the mistaken idea drummed into us for years and years that we have to be rugged individuals and pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, and helping others has become a radical political position...gasp...socialism!
Yeah, I'm plenty mad. But I'm educated. I have a graduate degree. I keep abreast of issues. I watch our corporate owned media and the right-wing corporate propaganda noise machine keeping our people ignorant.
And I want to PUKE.
I voted for Clinton, but it should be REAL EASY for any Democrat in any kind of responsible party position to see how someone as angry as I am could see Clinton as the quintessential establishment candidate and instead vote for Trump, because hey, the establishment has been fucking me since 1980 unrelentingly and now I can vote in an OUTSIDER who will make change.
See?
This is the DANGER of grossly misreading the mood of the people. I'm sorry to offend some of you but we ran a weak establishment candidate in an election where the working class is in near revolt against the establishment. How can we be surprised we LOST.
Oh, and we've REALLY LOST. Under a Trump administration, we're fucked. So now...I'm MAD at the Democratic party, too. And I have this friendly advice for any powerful Dem apparatchiks reading this rant - GET THE HEAD OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OUT OF ITS RECTUM AND START LISTENING. I can well remember how patronizing the Democratic establishment was as it crushed Bernie, who maybe could have won. "Oh, well, none of these things are practical..."
LISTEN.
dawg
(10,621 posts)We have listened to these people and their concerns. And we are the only party that has proposed concrete policies to help make their lives better.
Secretary Clinton proposed a free public university education for everyone from a family earning $85,000 or less.
She proposed a $15.00 an hour minimum wage (likely, her heart was only in it for $12.00, but still ...).
She proposed a huge tax credit for families with young children.
She proposed numerous expansions and repairs to our health insurance system.
She had an extensive plan to help retrain workers in disadvantaged areas.
She spoke to these people's concerns. We all did.
They just didn't care. Trump promised to "Make America Great Again". They chose bullshit slogans over actual policies that would have helped them.
Well, good luck with that!
renate
(13,776 posts)It was a wonderfully angry but completely rational rant, and so well expressed. Something about that combination of well-informed anger and cold hard reason really struck a chord with me. If the powers that be in the DNC were to read it I can't imagine how they wouldn't be influenced to change their ways at least a little bit. Very well said!
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)And by the 80s the US had already deindusrialized. The years of prosperity and growth that many associate the American Dream with was a period of about 25 years. It also coincided with a huge expansion of the military and the American empire through overturning soverign governments and replacing them with puppets favorable to US corporations controlling their economic resources.
To pretend that wasn't "corporatist" or globalization is absurd. Whey people are really lamenting is the decline of American empire and the ability of the US white working class to live off the exploitation of the Global South.
People need to be honest about that. No politician tells you that. They rely on historical mythology rather than leveling with voters.
Horse with no Name
(33,956 posts)Jobs that require training and education ARE the wave of the future.
I am 53 and probably the LAST generation where a High School graduate could make a living.
People are so worried about saving a buck that they buy cheap Chinese shit AND that mentality stole millions of jobs.
Jobs fixing things went away when it became cheaper to buy a new one than it did to fix an old one.
Allowing republicans to privatize services also cost a lot of jobs.
When I was growing up, city sanitation workers made a good living with benefits and a pension.
Now, those jobs are outsourced. CEO's make a ton of money....the workers are part time jobs with no benefits.
The customers don't pay any less so what was the point?
This siphoning of money to the top of the food chain is the death of our country.
The republicans are very good at framing the debate and the media follows along. Instead of giving reasons WHY the jobs are gone (mostly republican policy), we don't frame the answer in an understandable sound bite mainly because there are complex reasons why we don't have jobs.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)it back, if we try. Giving up on it will ensure we continue to decline...
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)irrespective of employment, organized labor and career re-training ? HINT: It ain't the Republicans.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)it all along. Those that voted for Trump believe that they can neglect to improve on a high school diploma. Trump fooled them into thinking that he will reverse technology and globalization and bring back the 1960's when one was able to leave high school and transition into a solid middle class lifestyle. You are asking the Democratic Party to fix that type of delusional thinking.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)
LiberalLovinLug
(14,164 posts)Those were Bernie's messages but he was defeated.
Healthcare: She praised Obamacare and dismissed single payer as "its never going to happen"
Free education: Again free tuition was Bernie's proposal that Hillary never adopted until she had to.
Minimum wage hikes: She never even broached the subject until she had to counter Bernie's 15 per hour proposal with her own sliding scale start at 12 idea
So there was no clear vision on these issues. There was a battle during the primaries with Hillary and her team wanting to distance themselves from the evils of socialism to distance themselves from Bernie's campaign.
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)much prefers to cover the horserace.
Did you watch the convention? The town halls and debates? They were full of policy, and she won every single one.
What happened to drive down her support at the very end were the two Comey letter bombs about the 650,000 "pertinent" emails found in a pervert's laptop, and a re-opened "criminal" investigation.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)
brooklynite
(94,360 posts)And if you've lost you well-paying job, a minimum wage hike isn't adequate.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)What does that mean ? The President's proposal for two free years of community college to transition blue collar workers into high tech manufacturing and the trades was an excellent proposal that was obstructed by Republicans. In my opinion, our answer is NOT to adopt the Republican attitude that eduction = elitism.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)Where schools and life circumstances don't prepare you for college, then it doesn't matter if it's free, particularly without efforts to address the huge disparities in k-12. Also remember that the GOP has spent a long time working to discredit higher education and its utility.
brooklynite
(94,360 posts)Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)him.
Moostache
(9,895 posts)The GOP has been ringing that bell since 2009 - from McConnell to Ryan to Romney to Trump and all points in between.
The total number actual plans that they have put forth? ZERO. FUCKING ZERO!
No plans.
No outlines.
No specifics.
Platitudes and bullshit.
That is ALL they are offering.
And you posting that the specific economic concerns of the rust belt displaced workers are an issue? NO. It's an issue when there are competing plans or programs or specifics on ways to actually address the problems. They don't like that their "culture" is becoming obsolete and left for the dustbin of history? TOO FUCKING BAD! Starve then.
They voted for a facist dictator in waiting. A lying strongman with no plan and no intention of doing a damn thing for them AT ALL. They are a collection of rubes and duped fools and they are to blame for absolutely EVERYTHING that their fucking "god-emperor" does in the next 1,200+ days.
NO.
I will not kowtow to their idiocy. Or their feelings of being marginalized. They did this to the United States of America. They killed it out of spite. Now I am going to make damn sure that no one ever, ever allows them to say "well, we were just angry and did not know it would be THIS bad". Fuck you assholes who voted against your own interests to give power to Trump and his gang of sycophants and serial liars and public service arsonists. YOU won, and now you OWN.
Enjoy the chaos you hath wrought on the world, because I am going to hang it on your necks like a millstone to my dying days.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)You aren't getting it. You have to give them a CLEAR, LOUD, ECONOMIC PLAN AND MESSAGE, not Harvard MBA wonky-wonk talk that they do not hear.
So enough of the nonsense. Learn now to message to voters again, or you will be a political LOSER FOREVER!
kcr
(15,315 posts)You want to sell us a steaming load that says we need to give up on actual policies that help people and just turn into con artists like the GOP and lie to people. Because that's the way you get votes.
old guy
(3,283 posts)
Fichefinder
(167 posts)There is no "Black" working class. There is an AMERICAN working class that have common concerns that MY democratic party is afraid to talk about: Overtime! Union! Card Check! 1099 Workers! Full time work with part time benefits!
How many picket lines did Hillary walk on?
There are two classes in America: the working class who wear their names on their shirts and the 300 Billionaire Spartans who are guarding their own Thermopylae leading to their valleys full of money!
Who remembers the Fighting Machinists? They DIED for the five day week! What are WE willing to die for???
Retired Military
Proud Union member
Lifelong Democrat!!!
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)From a 42 year, now retired union member.
I also remember when President Obama promised to lace up his walking boots and march in Madison Wisconsin when Scott Walker declared war on working Wisconsin. I was up there a few times with fellow union members and I never saw the President up there. He was too busy looking for moderate Republicans with whom he could work.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)mia
(8,360 posts)A tribute to the American working class:
Fichefinder
(167 posts)Why aren't we organizing the Uber drivers? The day laborers standing outside Home Depot? Nurses? Home health care workers? Substitute teachers? Fed Ex/UPS so called contractors? Everyone who gets paid on a 1099? Everyone who feels that they can't speak up because the next person will take their job? You don't have to worry about the next person if they are your Sister or Brother in the Movement!!! Individualism is a great rallying cry for the RICH. For the rest of us, we need to remember that each of us is only as strong as ALL of us are.
All power does not come out of the barrel of a laptop.
As Norma Rae famously said: "UNION!"
Retired Military
Proud Union Member
Lifelong Democrat!!!!!
citood
(550 posts)But if somebody tries to shove a 1099 down your throat, use a form SS-8 to fix the situation.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)for the problem. And Trump took advantage of that. When people know they are in trouble, someone who claims to recognize the problem and also claims to have a solution will get attention.
None of this excuses racism or sexism or any other brand of hate, it simply recognizes that "it is the economy, stupid" is generally the deciding factor.
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)MANY of who wish me pain and death simply for being.
They can kiss my mixed race, lesbian, atheist, post graduate-degreed, business owning ass. I don't give a bloody toss about economic reachout projects to people who FUCKED themselves (and doubled down by voting for an orange hued nazi), even though they have many of the ultimate power privileges in the world (white, American, male).
People like me are systematically murdered by nazi cops, by hate mongers, simply for the colour of our skin or the objects of our love, our same sex partners. As women we are raped, or physically, and psychologically abused to the point of suicide or madness. We are paid less and work more, and the MAJORITY OF THESE "POOR" WHITE WORKING CLASS PEOPLE NOT ONLY DO NOT GIVE A FUCK, BUT THEY ARE OFTEN THE PERPETRATORS OF THE HATE, THE VIOLENCE, THE INHUMANITY.
Ban me off this board, I dont give a shit, I am NEVER going to pander and beg these fuckers for a goddamn thing, including their vote.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)You are being as the people you are accusing. Not all the 62 million Trump voters are racists or sexists. Some are. Sure. But not all, by any means. What you saying is as bad as what SOME of the Trump voters say.
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)of the majority of these people's outputs. They either actively or by their tacit approval usher in a billion sobs of desperation and hurt from hate and subordination. PoC, LGBTQ, women of all stripes suffer out in public too, when violence and oppression and discrimination and indeed death comes ripping their way, in a myriad number of brightly technicoloured atrocities.
You think it was bad before? YOU AINT SEEN NOTHING YET. I dont think you have the slightest clue what it feels like to have a constant dread of being ERASED at ever level of your soul.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)As I said in my OP, of course the Democratic Party stands for combating bigotry in all its forms. It is completely Democratic to fight for social justice AND economic justice EVERYWHERE.
But even with full social justice, it doesn't mean a whole lot if you can't make a living, and people of color face the brutal economic inequality as well as every day. There must also be economic justice for EVERYONE. They are not mutually exclusive.
Try walking in the shoes of rural folks (and they aren't all just white by the way) whose jobs have left, whose kids don't stay there when grow up, whose storefronts are being boarded up by the day, who feel they have no economic future.
Try walking in those shoes.
And economic despair ALSO an urban problem.
We lost the election, MAINLY (not entirely) because rural working class folks have left us, and THEY are NOT all racists and sexists. They are majority good people who are in economic despair and we need to speak to them TOO. The party of EVERYONE needs to be the party of EVERYONE.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)I am supposed to shed tears for all of these people who keep voting against their economic self-interests election after election, decade after decade.
I gave up on them years ago. You should also because you are wasting your time trying to "reach" them. They won't even listen to you. They will laugh in your face.
I know a lot more about how the right operates than you do. That is because I have followed the movement since I was in my teens in the late 1960s and early 1970s. I know how these people operate. I have gone to school with the children of these people. Racism, sexism, and authoritarian backgrounds like religion and the military form their worldview. They cannot be changed sans an economic catastrophe like the Great Depression. I highly doubt they would change even then.
It isn't the Democratic Party who has "left" them--they have never had them since Nixon pandered to the hard hats by using racist code, and it was solidified by Ronald Reagan.
You are thirty-five years too late to the party.
The OP is downright laughable for its ignorance of the right-wing mindset.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)Bill Clinton won MANY of these people you are stereotyping.
So did Obama. Not all of them, but a hell of a lot more than who voted for us this time. In my rural congressional district, Obama won by 9% in 2012. Clinton LOST this year by 10%. People are MAD, want CHANGE, and we didn't offer it at least in a clear enough way.
So you are just going to write off MILLIONS of voters who are in economic despair? RIDICULOUS!
I am middle aged, come from the working class, and know exactly how they think. I know that rabid right wing racists in rural America will never vote for Democrats and I am not talking about them. But there are plenty who are still registered Democrats or Independents who WILL listen to and respond to a strong, populist economic message. Bernie Sanders proved it in many places.
Others have proved it. In my state this cycle we now have two Democratic state senators who just won in one of our most rural counties because they spoke strongly to economic issues, respected the local culture, and SAID so. The people voted for them but also voted for Trump and the Republican running for Congress.
Now who is naive? Take a very, very long look in the mirror because your way of thinking is why we LOSE! Wake up!
atreides1
(16,067 posts)Which particular group are you willing to throw under a bus, because those people you want to reach to...well they're going to want some proof that the Democrats really care.
Now, while jobs are important to them...so are certain social issues, like abortion, gay rights, rights for people of color, religious rights that they believe are being attacked, and let's not forget the gun issue!
What are you willing to promise them?
dionysus
(26,467 posts)Social issues on which we are opposite sides...
potone
(1,701 posts)The assumption of some that manufacturing is dead and can't be brought back is simply untrue. I have visited Italy several times in the last six years, and the thing that strikes me is that they still make things: they manufacture clothes, shoes, furniture, cars, tableware, etc., etc., in addition to agricultural products; and as a result, they have a diversified economy. We used to have that, and there is no reason that we can't do it again. They also have a strong labor movement. What do we still make in this country besides cars and weapons? Obama himself said that he wanted to see us start making things again, not just shuffling paper around (as is the case of the financial services industry, which has grown by leaps and bounds).
Part of the Trump vote was a FU to Washington and Wall Street, neither of which have seemed to benefit most people. If we don't listen to that cry of rage and frustration, we will continue to lose and lose and lose. The alternative to the nativist discourse of Trump is to create more jobs for everyone, not just talk about retraining people for jobs that don't exist. The Washington establishment of both parties is out of touch with the concerns of most people in this country.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)duffyduff
(3,251 posts)They are the ones who bitched about affirmative action. Why the fuck do we want them?
Why does everything have to center around WHITE MEN? The world doesn't revolve around them.
I don't know how old you are, but I doubt very old. If you weren't relatively young, you wouldn't write such nonsense.
Amishman
(5,554 posts)Wishing and whining and cursing white people won't fix anything. Now if we want to actually accomplish something, it's time to make changes and move forward for everyone.
whathehell
(29,034 posts)
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Great rant!
mythology
(9,527 posts)It's hard to say that a white guy making $20,000 a year is privileged just because he's white and male when it doesn't necessarily reflect his life. Yes a black guy or a woman etc, making $20,000 has more problems, it's stupid to tell the guy who can't pay his mortgage that he's so much better off that he owes you. Because when he's worried about paying his mortgage or a medical bill or college for his kids, it isn't exactly inclusive to tell him that he's what's wrong with the world.
It's smarter to find a way to reach out to him and say "hey, we agree on X, Y, Z, here's the Democratic plan to address your concern about your economic future". Telling him he's a nazi, or personally oppressing you (without any actual specific action by that person), is just going to make them go to the Republican side. And as we just saw, that doesn't work out well for us.
Clinton ran ad after ad lambasting Trump, but at least in Massachusetts (getting the New Hampshire market), I saw very few ads about why to vote for her. Obama was great about that, about saying this is my vision for America and what I plan to do to get there.
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)their fucked up quotidian, shambolic lives are exposed for the achingly disempowered, unfruitful trainwrecks they are.
The majority are so profoundly neuro-linguistically, meta-culturally, and false dogmatically (fundie xian) programmed that they are literally unreachable, unteachable and IMHO, irredeemable.
jalan48
(13,842 posts)Democratic leadership thought the first woman President was what people wanted. It appealed to some voters, but apparently not enough. I don't think Donna Brazile helped. The temporary chair of the Party and former CNN employee leaks a question to Hillary before the debate, gets fired by CNN and did the Party dismiss her as well? Noooooo-and you wonder why people voted against us.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)Stop trashing the Democratic Party. Your friend Sanders wouldn't get elected to anything outside of Vermont.
mythology
(9,527 posts)Trump won it by 6. It's a primarily blue collar county.
We've won blue collar Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan and Ohio in the past. So yes, those blue collar white voters have voted for Democrats. They didn't this time. There is a lesson to be learned there.
jalan48
(13,842 posts)Are you sure ALL blue collar males are Republicans? No Democrats? No Independents? Time for Corporate Democrats to wake up and realize it's "About the Economy Stupid".
treestar
(82,383 posts)Where did they get that idea?
If they are right wingers, they don't get to complain about the results of capitalism.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)It is reinforced by outlets like hate radio and Fox. You cannot change the mindset--EVER--simply because these idiots will not listen.
I say let them rot. They aren't the majority of voters anyway.
People who are posting we should kiss their asses and demagogue our way to the presidency don't know what in the fuck they are talking about.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)Trump went to them and CLEARLY SAID:
* I will make America Great Again (meaning your economic life is shit and I will fix it).
* I will go after the shit trade deals that have fucked you over.
* I will bring back 30 million jobs including steel jobs.
* I respect coal jobs and coal country.
* I will let you keep your guns and hunt all you want.
* I will go after China.
* I will drain the swamp and clean up Washington.
* I will create an economy that works for everyone, "And I mean EVERYONE." (Exact quote.)
THIS is what they wanted to hear. CLEAR, STRONG, PLAIN, and AFFIRMATIVE. They don't want to hear lost in the weeds Harvard MBA wonky shit. They want to hear CLEAR, STRONG, PLAIN, COMPELLING TALK!!!! Trump did it. We didn't.
treestar
(82,383 posts)None of that is really going to happen.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)Nancyswidower
(182 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 25, 2016, 07:27 PM - Edit history (1)
We got spanked in states we thought we were good....who do YOU blame?
This should be interesting.
Afromania
(2,768 posts)Then they want to hear really clear lies. If Hillary formed a cabinet the likes of Trump would they have batted an eye before they wanted her impeached, jailed and/or lynched? We are in this together but these people have a "side" it's not my side, it's not your side. It's the side that represents them and them only.
I, again, offer you the question of how is it that non white working class AND white (not insane) working class managed to vote Dem this year feeling about Hillary the way we do. I'm a Bernie supporter but he lost and the alternative was an insane man. Your argument basically boils down to rural voters being so willing to be led by the nose. The only thing a candidate has got to do is show up and shout platitudes at them and you got their vote. Part of why they voted for Trump was that they bought into Obama's "Hope and Change" and didn't get it fast enough.
Welp, they aren't going to get anything from Trump either so we better get cracking on a new slogan to shout at these "emotional" voters because anything steeped in reality ain't gonna work. I'm a big fan of cheese and meat on table crackers so I'm thinking
Meat and Cheese Forever:Hoping To Change The Heartland Great Again!!!
nah, that's too long and unwieldy.
mythology
(9,527 posts)If they are unhappy with Democrats, by definition, they are going to vote for Republicans, or vice versa. Barring one party or the other dying enough to be replaced (and there are significant barriers to that happening), we will largely have a back and forth system.
That explains why so many of those who didn't like either candidate decided on Trump (although I believe the FBI's two late announcements didn't help any). They haven't gotten or felt they've gotten enough help from Obama and the Democrats (yes I know Republicans have held the House for most of his term and the last 2 years of the Senate, but generally the public views the President as having more power than he actually does for good and bad), and so they voted for the Republican as that's the other default choice.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)Know something about the voting patterns of your beloved "white working class," meaning WHITE MALES, before writing such a post bereft of any kind of common sense.
You can't reach them. They made their own bed thirty-five years ago with Reagan. These men are totally entitled jackasses, which is why I use the term "white dudes."
I will be damned if I am going to kiss the asses of these idiots who vote GOP while throwing the Democratic Party base under the bus.
The jobs aren't coming back because outfits like the World Bank and IMF won't allow it. Congress is too much in bed with business interests to allow it. You are engaging in pure fantasy.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)No, we can't win all of them back, but we can win some of them back and maybe many of them. Look at the data. In a head to head contest all the data show Bernie Sanders would have beaten Trump significantly. He most likely would have, mainly because he had a strong, clear, compelling populist economic message that resonated with rural people. I have had plenty of white working class people and even Republicans say they would have voted for Sanders but voted for Trump because they could not tolerate Clinton (much as I supported her and know how much better she would have been).
Next, Obama won many of these voters we lost in this election in the rural small town areas on the economic message. Clinton was flawed, and the clear compelling economic message just wasn't there. She was more about "anti Trump" than a good economic message.
Um, I am FROM the working class and damn well understand it. I grew up in it. I interact with rural working class people all the time, live in a rural area, and have seen just exactly how folks have changed in the rural sections of my state. They are in economic DESPAIR and they are rightfully ANGRY. We did not talk to them. Trump did.
If you don't see that this party is FAILING to speak to large sections of the country that used to support us, and that we can do so again, then your head is buried in the deepest conceivable sand that exists on the planet Earth.
Response to RBInMaine (Reply #34)
Post removed
think
(11,641 posts)HassleCat
(6,409 posts)Thank you. Another clue as to why we lost.
westerebus
(2,976 posts)
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)She lost by a narrow, but significant margin in rust-belt and southern states, including states that went for Obama. Unfortunately, until we get rid of the electoral college, some of those states are the swing states any candidate needs to take.
Nancyswidower
(182 posts)I've been doing this for 50 yrs....In a deep Blue State....your arrogance is laughable....you don't know it all duffy.....If you did we wouldn't be setting here with the Dumpster as POTUS elect.
Popular vote and 3 bucks will get you a latte...in a cheap coffee joint
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)think
(11,641 posts)jack_krass
(1,009 posts)Dont be disheartened by the responses to your OP so far. There is a very, very loud minoriry in this place who would proudly and loudly carry a "fuck the white wirking class" message all the way to utter ruin of the Democratic party. I, for one, will not shut up and ket them do this.
Response to RBInMaine (Original post)
Post removed
JCanete
(5,272 posts)aren't helpful for us joining people together in common cause, I'm not personally offended by it. I understand the pain of being mostly disregarded by our political system and constantly falling victim to the entrenchment of white privilege. Its just unfortunate that our DNC and the media was willing and able to do such a preemptive hit job on Bernie that got a huge swath of the population in places like South Carolina to disregard him out of hand, before they even knew him.
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)On KPFA radio, Greg Palast was being interviewed. He had spent a lot of time in Ohio, covering election mechanics and speaking to people who had to wait for hours in line to early vote. The interviewer talked with him about why people had voted for Trump, and tried to push him into saying it was due to their privilege. He rejected the notion that people who've lost their jobs and pensions are privileged, and said they were voting out of fear. Their way of life has crumbled around them and they live among empty factories.
Calling white working class voters 'white privileged' is not a way to win votes. I have actually read a comment from someone who said they voted for Trump specifically because they are sick of the phrase white privilege.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)even the poor working class do benefit from over minorities? I got to tell you, I am officially poor in the California bay area of all places, but I can't deny that I have benefits due to my gender and the color of my skin.
You are right, there are people not ready to tackle the notion of White Privilege and it does no good to shout it at them, and you are also right, that when we should be seeing and responding to the pain and stress of our fellow humans, using this opportunity for redress against working class white males is looking in the wrong direction. It isn't the battering ram we should be using to connect with people, who when it comes down to it, should be on our side, and we should be on theirs.
It's just that it doesn't make it any less real. But yes, when everybody from the middle class down is suffering, we should be feeling each others pain and banding together. If we on the liberal side of the spectrum can't find love in our hearts even the outward bigots then we probably can't expect to erode that bigotry.
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)Right now, the only people it's OK to broadbrush vilify are white males. Sometimes, white women are included in the sweeping negative characterizations.
If a white person had posted a photo of him/herself drinking black tears on twitter, the outcry would have been tremendous. If the person was employed, they would have likely been fired from their job within 24 hours. Feels like quite a double standard that the actual photo I posted was greeted with chuckles and high fives.
Liberals need to develop language to criticize the people who've rigged the system, not our fellow powerless Americans who happen to share the skin color of the ones ruining things for everyone.
Sorceress
(309 posts)It is a privilege to be able to vote for a racist, bigoted vision of this country's future because racism and bigotry don't personally affect you. It doesn't prevent you from getting jobs. It doesn't prevent you from driving to said job and being late due to being pulled over for a DWB. It doesn't prevent you from calling the police when you need help for fear that the police will turn on you and become more dangerous than the actual criminal. It is a privilege to only have to worry about your pocketbook and not the social ramifications of a Trump presidency. People can be salty about it if they want but there it is.
These voters may be sick of the phrase white privilege but I am sick of ignorance. Here we are turning on each other and going for the jugular over whose fault it is that we lost. The DNC screwed it up. We ran too flawed a candidate. She had too much baggage. The strategy was all wrong, etc., etc. Admittedly, some of these things may be true as Clinton did not run a perfect campaign. But ultimately, I blame the voters. It was their civic duty to educate themselves. It was their civic duty to vote their interests. We can't do all the work for them. So, buckle your seat belts. Unfortunately, it is going to take the country crashing a burning to get them to wake up.
liquid diamond
(1,917 posts)and other Southern states because POC did not know him. However, they have known Hillary for decades. What did you Sanders supporters expect? Some white senator from a predominately white state was going to win over POC in just one election? Please. It just goes to show how out of touch Sanders' white supporters are. Sanders never would have won this election because of his lack of support from POC alone.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)attention to the election cycle, and the media and the DNC did form a united front to tie his previous wins to him appealing to white male voters. Even when it wasn't true they were pushing that identity throughout the campaign, like when he won Hawaii, which was absolutely ridiculous. Jon Lewis came out and said in derisive terms, that he'd never met the man during the civil rights movement, as if he'd met everybody involved. That didn't come across as an honest uncharged answer to the question, and while I admire John Lewis greatly and respect his courage and contribution to making this nation a greater place, I don't have to pretend that didn't happen.
Sure, of course he couldn't have won the election without the support of people of color, but his platform is way better than Hillary's on issues that are actually affecting people of color's lives. But he didn't get support from the POC community in large part because there was no reason to give him a second look. He'd already been characterized as an old white male who appeals to white voters, and I got to say, we all have limited bandwidth and we make choices about how we spend our time. If I'd been black and had been told by people I trust that this is just another one of those dudes, I probably wouldn't have bothered looking at his platform either. Its not like I ever looked at Trump's or Cruz's during the primaries. I was pretty certain I knew what I was going to see.
So damn right I blame the DNC's media machine for gaming that election.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Here at DU they were stalked relentlessly just because they had questions for Bernie. People were told they were low-info, were voting for a vagina, and must have Stockholm Syndrome. Many of us had very similar and negative interactions in real life. Sorry, but we were not controlled by the DNC or shills- we were asking legitimate questions about how Sanders planned to represent us.
I tried not to judge Sanders by his supporters but felt he was dishonestly stoking their anger.
We went from a primary filled with angry white men to a presidential campaign that continued to focus on them.
Never again.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)then saddle the rest of us or Bernie himself with that behavior, any more than it would be for me to point out the shitty things Hillary supporters have said about Bernie supporters or Sanders. You often dredge those things up, and clearly they left a bad taste in your mouth, but I would challenge you to try to focus on Sanders platform, his own words and record, and the best of us and our intentions, and I will do the same of Hillary supporters.
I won't condone any actions that attempted to silence questions, but I will also say there were plenty of posts not posing questions at all but propagating a false meme that yes, was first propagated by Clinton's own messaging department, and was picked up and run with here on these boards.
The actual questions are great, and I'm pretty sure that Sanders advocacy, while perhaps not perfect or ideal, far exceeds Clinton's on actual policies that help people of color. That was drowned out. Tanahashi Coates for example, put out an article specifically taking Sanders to task for not supporting or advocating for reparations, in a primary cycle where neither candidate did. Those things have real effects because he is a trusted and valuable voice on issues of race and social justice. He later followed up but he had to know a piece so implicitly stilted would have coat-tails.
As to Bernie refusing to temper protests, I'm not sure it was the right decision but I understand it. Plenty of us felt, and for good reason, that the DNC had actively worked against Bernie's chances, from the ridiculous debate scheduling, to the united establishment front that started saying things like "Bernie isn't a real democrat," (looking at you Boxer), to Clinton's propaganda instrument in Brock who was putting out disingenuous hit-pieces about Bernie, such as efforts to pretend he wasn't part of the civil rights movement, the hammering of Bernie Bros, etc. etc. So I can understand why he might have thought the DNC deserved some pressure.
That doesn't mean there weren't elements that Bernie did attract that don't best represent us, and its no surprise that they would be the loudest and most disruptive, not to mention the least sensitive or compassionate. That's a side-effect of appealing beyond our natural limits as a party, which is not a bad thing to do. Your fear is that that sort of thing was the main thrust of the Sanders movement, and that's just not the case, if you look at his consistent messaging and the things he's fought for his whole life in congress.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)LGBT or issues that POC face with discrimination and the justice system. Not a single word, and that pushback came from me and others, not the Hillary campaign. that criticism you're shielding him from- by pretending it was not an organic and honest take on things- actually helped make him a slightly better candidate in the end. But he had too much catching up to do.
I disagree with your view on the DNC's current function but won't waste time with it because I agree they should be much better. But they got a heap of shit laid on them for not doing things they never ever have done. People had expectations that were pulled out of thin air. they criticisized Sanders in those emails in April/ may ... when the contest was over. So many rookie mistakes like that over some fantasy of burning it down.
how it must feel for them to watch Sanders speak of hopes for incremental change instead of speaking of the corruption we are mired in now. There was never any ideological purity in either side. Each had to make choices in how inclusive they wanted to be.
In the current atmosphere I have no room for those who are still intent of stifling voices on the left. economic progressives are basically libertarians who want just enough regulation to fatten their own wallets. No thanks.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)using a frighteningly broad brush to categorize and malign people. Also, progressives on economics are the opposite of libertarians. They espouse entirely opposed economic ideals. You must know this. None of Bernie's economic policies would square with a libertarian philosophy, or show me where I'm wrong. Regulation is kind of not the thing libertarians praise on a daily basis, and Bernie's version of regulation was not less strict than Hillary's. I would argue the opposite.
There is a difference between incremental change forward and incremental change backwards. As long as the democratic party was not actively taking the fight to the billionaire class, because lets face it, they structured a party that needs those same interests in order to survive, we were going to continue to amass them more money and have our politics further tampered with by their influence in the media and Washington.That influence looks like divide and conquer. So whether well meaning democrats wanted it or not, they have helped to feed the beast by letting it go largely unnoticed.
Sanders has never been one to not get what he can. People keep trying to paint him as an unreasonable purist. But you can't get shit if you aren't actually demanding it, and Clinton wasn't demanding anything really. Her economic platform was tepid and esoteric. She pushed her experience and her qualifications, and the iconography that demonstrated an inclusive party, but on issues she was afraid to say anything actually of substance. Case in point, she said not once, but at least 2 times, "I "basically" went to wall street and told them to cut it out." That sort of talk doesn't make you squirm a little?
Look, during the Primaries Clinton emphasized over and over that Sanders had his head in the clouds for demanding things we just couldn't get. Well people are always so quick to remind us that we can't blame the democrats because Republicans have always been there to obstruct everything and compromise on nothing. So I ask you, what good is a moderate message that doesn't even resonate with voters, if even moderate policy can't get passed in congress? If Hillary, true to her campaign rhetoric, actually could get something passed, then that would have been legislation that we should be incredibly superstitious of anyway. why not actually rally a groundswell of the people behind ideas high past their time, and then maybe, just maybe with all that pressure from a wider undivided populace could make the GOP give an inch to not give a mile.
BlueProgressive
(229 posts)here and especially elsewhere. There was plenty enough to go around on both sides.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)BlueProgressive
(229 posts)LOL!!!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But refighting the primaries is against the site rules, so get over it already or dont post that primary refighting nonsense here. This is not the place, JPR has a whole forum DEDICATED to that shit so thats probably a better place to refight the primaries. Real shit.
BlueProgressive
(229 posts)primaries" on the other side, and fairly pointed out that there was blame enough on both sides to go around. But I guess some people here only care to hear one side of it. Right?
And DON'T YOU lecture me about "the site rules" when you CLEARLY have not kept up with what they are:
The rule against "refighting the primaries" has been suspended by Skinner post-election, "until further notice". I guess you missed it.
So, I don't have to "get over" SHIT for now. Even though, I mostly am.
Love ya!
PS I've seen JPR, it's not for me.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)BlueProgressive
(229 posts)JCanete
(5,272 posts)your fellow DUers while I assume you are attempting to appeal to them on grounds that they are mistaken for debasing and disregarding fellow human beings. I think something like "foolish" would have been okay here, "misguided", etc. But braindead can hardly be divorced from characterizing the actual people, or at least that's my sense of it.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)Big difference. And as far as your advice to refrain from such language, we're not in church, just in case you didn't know.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)in terms of how it reads and sounds, I, as an ally to the Op's general position on these matters, object to it.
Oneironaut
(5,486 posts)
whathehell
(29,034 posts)democrank
(11,085 posts)This thread is a PERFECT example of why Democrats have lost so many races for House, Senate, Governor, Mayor. We had better broaden our scope....or else.
Akacia
(583 posts)FairWinds
(1,717 posts)when the white male quota for almost all good jobs was 100% ?
A lot of the bitterness comes from losing some of these entitlements.
randr
(12,409 posts)They turned their backs on the only institutions on their side in favor of a rich movie star who hated minorities as much as they did
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)all the Bigot and Hate Mongers from the Democratic Party where they found safe harbor in GOP. Let them back in? no thanks,,,,,we need to work on getting 4-5 % of those who do not vote to join us.
liquid diamond
(1,917 posts)Fuck them. They elected Donald Trump as president, and I will never forgive them for that. This country is in so much trouble. Let's see if you have the same compassion for these asshats four years from now.
As it has been repeatedly stated in this thread, they are a LOST CAUSE and not worth fighting for. Let them continue to vote against their own economic interest by voting GOP from now on. Our time would be better spent courting those 40 million + eligible voters who sat out this election. At least we have somewhat of a clean slate with them.
Martin Eden
(12,847 posts)SOLAR POWER is one of the keys to JOBS, JOBS, JOBS.
Putting America back to work with an Apollo program building a 21st century energy infrastructure absolutely needs to be at the top of the Democratic platform.
Aside from the disdain of solar, I pretty much agree with the OP.
quantumjunkie
(244 posts)It's brought up, nothing is done, and a new cycle begins.
Doesn't this indicate there is something wrong with the system?
Money in politics should be the real issue not jobs.
Until then we can continue this dog & pony show ad nauseam.
cry baby
(6,682 posts)It's still, and probably always going to be " it's the economy, stupid" and we must not only say it during election years, but act on it (as best we can since we are a minority in most states and federally).
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Not without insulting the Democratic Party base. As I wrote elsewhere:
I'm not sure why some object so strongly to the notion that 20-25% of eligible voters can't be reached by the Democratic Party without the Democratic Party abandoning its base. That seems like a pretty obvious point. Someone posted an article from the Rude Pundit that makes that point. It's made in a less colorful way in this piece: "On Rural America: Understanding Isn't The Problem."
Trump didn't put forth any substantive policy positions, and I don't think many of his supporters were sitting around having nuanced discussions about trade or any other issue. If trade was such an important issue, Rob Portman wouldn't have kicked Ted Strickland's ass in Ohio. Also, the median income of Trump supporters is substantially higher than the median income of Clinton supporters. So, it isn't as if Trump was the candidate of choice among a majority of low income working class people.
No Democratic candidate for president has won the white vote since LBJ, and that's not because Republicans are the party of sound economic policy.
Of course Democrats need to do a better job of messaging, of making it clear that progressive politics is key to improving economic conditions.
Of course Democrats need to do a better job of GOTV, fighting voter suppression, combating gerrymandering, and attempting to reach those who don't ever vote. Even small improvements in those areas would pay huge dividends.
But the fact is racism, sexism, misogyny, heterosexism, xenophobia and Christian supremacy take precedence for tens of millions of voters. It's not that 100% of them are unreachable, but the time and effort necessary to undo the brainwashing is time and effort that can be spent in much more productive, efficient ways.
It'd be one thing if most people were working from a set of agreed-upon facts (which is even less the case in this age of 24/7 infotainment with media personalities who say it's not their job to fact check). There'd still be disagreement over causes for and appropriate responses to those facts. But millions of people flat out deny facts while subscribing to patently false beliefs. Presenting them with facts has a tendency to backfire, as studies have made clear. The false beliefs become more ingrained. That's true across the political spectrum, but it's a matter of scale. While most everyone will cling to at least some false beliefs, there are those who simply live in an alternate reality. If you want to dedicate time to pulling people out of that alternate reality, more power to you.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)Lithos
(26,403 posts)Back in the 1990's the slogan was "It's the Economy, Stupid"
It's 2016 and "It's Still the Economy, Stupid"
L-
BlueStater
(7,596 posts)They should've been smart enough to figure out that Trump is a worthless scam artist who won't help them on their own.
WhoWoodaKnew
(847 posts)now turn on companies like them. They never seem to think things through.
Raine
(30,540 posts)Response to RBInMaine (Original post)
KK9 This message was self-deleted by its author.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)I don't know why people are floating the idea that we can't pursue both, or that pursuing economic reform is counter to cultural reform.
Unless it's that there is a discrete effort to split liberals on behalf of business interests by arguing that financial reform or efforts that might benefit EVERYONE is counter to fighting for equality or against bigotry.
Which is a distinct possibility.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)These people have not voted Democratic once in my entire lifetime, so why the fuck should I be trying desperately to reach people who vote for a guy who is racist, sexist, nasty and xenophobic, just because they are sad about manufacturing jobs that were on the way out when my mama was a child?
THEY NEED TO GROW THE FUCK UP and stop thinking that some strongman is going to come in a put blacks and women back in their places so that these poor ignorant souls can 'make america great again'.
And sitting around crying and shit and trying to figure out how to reach them is a desperate operation in futility. They don't WANT TO BE REACHED by the party of social justice that put a BLACK MAN INTO OFFICE. Anyone who thinks so is a fucking idiot. Look at them!!!! They want to build a WALL to keep BROWN people from entering the country. Why the fuck would they want to join us in a muthafucking thing when they think blacks and women are taking what is rightfully theirs? No no no.
What we need to do is shut the fuck up, stop the goddamn hand ringing, realize we got way more votes, and get back to fucking work. No beating ourselves up because we live in a nation that absolutely has HATED dark folks since the day the pilgrims landed on plymouth rock.
Best thing for us todo is chill, wait until Trump does dumb shit, then point it out to him and harass our legislators into not working with that lunatic on pain of being kicked out of office in midterms.
I am not surprised that those idiotic white working classers decided to fuck themselves like this to pay us back for Obama, I'm just surprised to see folks sympathizing with these fucking assholes. They are still doing much better that us dark working class folks but somehow they are madder than us? Bullshit. I am praying for them to each get EXACTLY what they deserve from King Trump. Just wish it didnt effect the rest of us. Fuck pandering to a pack of sexist racists. We'd lose the black and hispanic and liberal vote to get jack squat because white men aint coming back to the dem party.
betsuni
(25,380 posts)Everyone else is constantly told to go pull on theirs, so obviously non-Republicans all have them. Maybe they could find some during the holiday sales.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They gave even give them out as gifts
BlueProgressive
(229 posts)since 1982, and I despise Republicans and racists and Trump--
yet I still want Democrats to loudly support unions and the working class (which last time I checked, included a large number of minorities and women)
Yet, you're writing about all these things that I supposedly "want" (and don't) and calling me a racist--
and judging a large number of white people by the group, by their race--
just like many white people do against minorities.
isn't that "racism"?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)BlueProgressive
(229 posts)you really ought to STOP and think it over.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)JI7
(89,240 posts)mvd
(65,161 posts)We have been getting away from the working class way too much. Also, many minorities are part of the working class. This is not to say that we should change our social positions or care less about the environment - they are an equally important part of our party. Nor should we pander to racists. But jobs, jobs, and more jobs needed to be talked about more.
Number23
(24,544 posts)around in a private jet with his name in 6 feet gold letters on it and hasn't paid taxes since the beginning of the 21st century "feels their pain" and is going to help them deserves all of the fucking misery that misogynistic, tax-dodging, wall building, p*ssy grabbing, POS is going to bring them.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I hope he gives them what they begged for
Number23
(24,544 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)betsuni
(25,380 posts)By coincidence I'm sure, but I think his followers are self-destructive and getting what they need, misery.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)JI7
(89,240 posts)pro corporate republicans who ran against them ?
OnionPatch
(6,169 posts)that actually includes many progressive-minded people....that boggles my mind.
I understand the frustration. It's hard seeing so many people vote against their best interests but the white working-class does not contain only right-wing haters as many seem to insinuate. Lots of white working-class voters are Democrats and the last time I checked there are a whole lot of independents in those white, working-class/rust belt areas who voted for Obama in Ohio, PA, Wisconsin, Michigan just four years ago. One loss and we're going to throw in the towel on that huge swath of our country? I hope the people suggesting this aren't the same people defending the Electoral College, because we need those states to win elections unless the electoral system is changed.
Actually, I'm not really sure I get the argument. I doubt anyone on this board is advocating that we appeal to racism and bigotry to win votes. Are we hurting minorities if we try to bring some jobs back to the rust belt? Is it not possible to support minority rights and at the same time want to help areas suffering from economic downturn?
DemonGoddess
(4,640 posts)that everyone thinks that it was Democrats that caused this job loss. It wasn't. Yes, President Clinton signed NAFTA, but he would not have been able to overturn it. He also made sure there were things added in to HELP us, that were not included when GHW Bush negotiated the damn thing. It was already a DONE DEAL before he got into office.
think
(11,641 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)They want the jobs they think are their due. Two problems with that:
They consistently vote for politicians who destroy the unions that made those good wages and benefits possible.
They don;t want to acknowledge that the economy they want no longer exists. The days of $50/hr assembly line jobs for anyone who can get a High School diploma are over.
stonecutter357
(12,694 posts) 