So is our message really that all Trump voters are racist and that's why we lost?

[realmirage]

Is this our strategy? Because if it is I want to mark on my calendar the day the Democratic Party died. We used to care about people in the rust belt. We used to watch Roger and Me and feel for those people. Now all we want to do is eliminate the electoral college so we can forget them. The electoral college isn't going anywhere and in the meantime the people in the rust belt will see that we are trying to cut them out and they'll continue to vote against us. They don't care that republicans opposed the auto bailout, they care that their states are still hurting and Trump was the only one still speaking to them.

It is a reality of human nature that people vote for their economic survival first and social issues second. We can ignore that reality and the Republicans can swoop in and steal our economic message as Trump just did, and if so, let me know so I can at least know that we are finished as a party.

[Madam45for2923]

1. Our most pressing message is RUSSIA

[shraby]

4. Yup, I have a feeling that between Russia and the FBI, a coup has taken place.

[LenaBaby61]

10. Yup, I have a feeling that between Russia and the FBI, a coup has taken place.

+1,000

The truly frightening thing is: What if this blue print for rigging elections is something they try again in 2018 and in 2020? Whose to stop them,? And do you think a DOJ/FBI with the likes of this diabolical den of thieves will do any serious investigations into complaints filed by Dems of voter disenfranchisement/suppression? They're all laughing and chuckling at the fact that they KNOW they got away with the help of their buddies the Russians with rigging THIS election. Again, whose to stop them from continuing this? Our own FBI was in on it THIS time around.

[pangaia]

63. I wish I didn't agree....but I do...

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

110. Yup, count me in.

[Cosmocat]

66. In theory, but

Election day proved the 60 million or so who voted for the pos and the millions who chose to not vote for potus could have cared less.

[jfern]

156. Russia is the scapegoat? How pathetic.

[wordpix]

158. ? Russia hacked the DNC and Hill's emails, so says 17 intel and security agencies

What's with the "scapegoat" meme?

[jfern]

159. Hillary caused Hillary to lose, not Russia.

[blue cat]

2. No

But I'm sitting around some trump racist family right now at thanksgivings. Confederate flag and all.

[Madam45for2923]

5. Geesh & F*ck!

[yallerdawg]

69. I live in Alabama.

"Racists? Where?"

Apparently - every freakin' where!

Not the America they thought they lived in?

[doc03]

3. I would say the two main things that lost the election was the two

Republican ideas Democrats picked up and ran with. NAFTA and Romneycare

[hueymahl]

90. Yep

[OnionPatch]

145. I agree they were big factors.

Actually I think it was a perfect storm of things, those two included and near the top of the list. IMO, they were a big reason the Dems lost some of their traditional voters from the left and from independents.

Add to that the irrational, extreme hatred the right has for Hillary that they've been fostering for what, 25 years or more. Sprinkle in minority voter suppression, FBI tricks, possible occurances of election fraud, an election system that's biased in favor of the GOP, and we have our outcome.

[JHan]

6. Well they did vote for someone who spouted some divisive shit all year didn't they?

And it is probably a spectrum of views - to very racist to not so racist to anarchists to voting for someone versus voting AGAINST someone. -

And lying to voters - like Trump did - is not caring about them. Hillary's message and plans never pierced through Trump's noise - there's a lot of blame to go around for this, including the Clinton Campaign's strategy.

The irony is Hillary's plans would have served these folks much better. Oh well.

[realmirage]

11. Hillary's message to them was globalism, which is what they hate

And is what killed their jobs to start with. She took too long to turn against TPP and they didn't trust her

[JHan]

18. Between her and Sanders and Trump she was the only one who intuitively knew the challenges ahead..

Should she have lied about coal coming back? Or steel- which has been dying since the 70's?

"Globalism" killed jobs? to an extent yes, but it's not the real eater of jobs. As I said elsewhere today:

3) Trade Deals and Jobs - NAFTA's harshest critics claim that the deal cost us approximately 750,000 jobs. Ignoring for a minute the new jobs created by freer trade between US, Canada and Mexico, that may sound like a lot but the jobs made redundant due to Technology dwarfs this number. In fact, jobs started disappearing since the 1970's but let's look at this century: Between 2000-2010 , Technology made 5.6 million American jobs redundant, see here http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-griswold-globalization-and-trade-help-manufacturing-20160801-snap-story.html
Even Salon is coming round to this: http://www.salon.com/2016/04/10/technology_fcked_us_all_the_anxiety_driving_donald_trump_and_bernie_sanders_is_really_about_machines_taking_our_jobs/

"Technology continues to eat away at jobs - As manufacturing becomes "smarter", the job market will shrink. We've seen huge spikes in Productivity gains since the turn of this century, and fewer manufacturing jobs- that is the problem which not a single candidate addressed adequately because everyone was high hating on trade deals when THIS should have been the major issue of 2016. it is also why no renegotiation of trade deals or Sanders-like protectionism will stop this trend - in fact the approach of Trump and Sanders will make things worse for us globally, killing our competitiveness and locking off markets to small to medium size business owners leaving only conglomerates with the capital to offset the drawbacks- not to mention the effects of higher tariffs like price inflation. "

Add to that Right To Work laws where we're seeing jobs hop from state to state. None of this was explored this year fully because this wasn't a policy-driven election year..

Her idea to retrain and help victims of this new economy transition should have resonated but so many were "angry" and populists stoked their anger and fears, even if those populists lied or gave them false hope.

So all the issues she would have addressed - Mental health Care, Opoid Abuse, Fixing Obamacare etc, all opportunities lost because she didn't lie enough?

[TheKentuckian]

154. "Retraining" for nonexistent jobs likely to be globalized or flooded into wage crashing/criteria

ratcheting doesn't resonate as well as you think especially when you are like 50-55 and as things stand you are going to be paying a loan out of their Social Security (if they don't get screwed out of that like everything else).

I'm also not buying the honest shtick either when you know you are lying like a motherfucker that hundreds of millions of people can have a decent job with education. It is a supply side job market theory and it just isn't true. The reality is their might be few 100,000 jobs looking for the right prospect and that is in no small part because companies want cheaper hires than experienced folks that have been looking and/or temping for years.

If everyone in the country had a PhD then we'd be calling the garbage man, the meter maid, the kat in the unemployment line, the pole dancer, the ditch digger, and the dude the hangs at the liquor store doctor.

It isn't just the rust belt you don't have any answers for.
You don't have answers for most people when it comes down to it, not even the majority of the people in the great advanced coastal metros that aren't in the upwardly mobile/well heeled sets in such locales so fuck them too, maybe throw a minimum wage increase for those that can find something and even that maybe a tenth of what the better of still would be terribly concerned about a 3% tax on what they make over that 10x income but have no bones about throwing a 10% tithe to the insurance cartel onto someone in the same city they call a struggle making a fucking sliver of what they pull down.

You are also essentially telling those folks that aren't good at school that they are left for dead. There is no welfare. Housing waits are into the years. You can't be able to to afford to pay attention to qualify for food stamps.

Dressed up Social Darwinism it seems to me.

[JHan]

155. Hold on..

""Retraining" for nonexistent jobs likely to be globalized or flooded into wage crashing/criteria ratcheting doesn't resonate as well as you think especially when you are like 50-55 and as things stand you are going to be paying a loan out of their Social Security (if they don't get screwed out of that like everything else).
"

---------Yeah it doesn't sell well, that's the unfortunate reality but it's the necessity because some industries aren't making a come back. the elites failed to mitigate the ill effects of economic policy on those harmed by changes in the market.

"I'm also not buying the honest shtick either when you know you are lying like a motherfucker that hundreds of millions of people can have a decent job with education. It is a supply side job market theory and it just isn't true. The reality is their might be few 100,000 jobs looking for the right prospect and that is in no small part because companies want cheaper hires than experienced folks that have been looking and/or temping for years. "

------- I am not "lying like a motherfucker" - Automation is eating up jobs and will continue to do so, nothing will stop this trend. We have been in transition since the 1970's when manufacturing jobs slowly dwindled.

And it's not just manufacturing jobs we need to worry about. There are even complaints about sourcing labor for jobs in healthcare of all things. And then there are the right to work laws that see jobs hop from state to state.

"It isn't just the rust belt you don't have any answers for.
You don't have answers for most people when it comes down to it, not even the majority of the people in the great advanced coastal metros that aren't in the upwardly mobile/well heeled sets in such locales so fuck them too, maybe throw a minimum wage increase for those that can find something and even that maybe a tenth of what the better of still would be terribly concerned about a 3% tax on what they make over that 10x income but have no bones about throwing a 10% tithe to the insurance cartel onto someone in the same city they call a struggle making a fucking sliver of what they pull down. "

-------- It's not my job to have answers, I'm not a politician. I'm a young voter who tries to understand what the deal is because my future is at stake. If you think your anger is justified, my anger could blow up all of fucking New York. I had to endure a year where the issues I wanted to discussed were never discussed to my liking and it's my generation which will have to contend with the bullshit and try to fix it..

"You are also essentially telling those folks that aren't good at school that they are left for dead. There is no welfare. Housing waits are into the years. You can't be able to to afford to pay attention to qualify for food stamps. " -

---------Absolutely no where did I argue this, you're making assumptions about me and creating a false narrative about what I said because you disagree with me.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

7. No, the current message

is that we didn't really lose, that the election was stolen, so we don't need to change anything before the 2018 elections with regards to voter outreach.

[realmirage]

12. So basically what the republicans were planning to do

[Ace Rothstein]

15. Hello Republican super majority.

Should I kill myself now or wait two years?

[realmirage]

107. lolz

[TCJ70]

64. Which better change...

...before too long or we can kiss 2020 goodbye (2018 is nearly already a lost cause)

[Yo_Mama]

149. Political Russian roulette, but you may be right.

Or maybe people need a few months to blow off steam and by the end of next year the national leadership will be working on programs to help the country and to help win elections??

I admit I am not enjoying the suspense.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

150. I think it has to be a three-pronged approach

1) Current legislators need to fight Trump and the Republicans on every front, including getting info out to voters about how the proposed/enacted Republican agenda items harm everyone

2) Voter suppression laws have to be fought at the state level, in court and in the state legislatures

3) In states with voter suppression laws, individuals and groups need to actively seek out and assist those who are being negatively impacted by voter suppression laws. Paying for birth certificates in order for people to be able to register and obtain photo ID, standing outside of polling places on election days to assist those who were forced to cast provisional ballots obtain and submit required information, etc. While we fight to overturn suppression laws, we need to assist those who are impacted by them.

[SidDithers]

8. No...

But all Trump voters made the conscious choice that racism wasn't enough of a reason to disqualify someone from the office of President in 2016.

Sid

[SickOfTheOnePct]

9. Agree 100% n/t

[realmirage]

14. In reality, people care about their economic survival before

they can care about anything else. That's not racism, that's self preservation and it's a big reason we lost the rust belt

[hamsterjill]

84. Not all people.

I vote on social issues. I believe many Dems do. We see the world.

The Republucans vote economy first. They see ME! ME!! ME!!!

[realmirage]

108. You must be well off to have such a luxury

Nevertheless, we can't ignore the many people who are concerned with their economic survival

[hamsterjill]

137. No, I am not well off.

I am simply more concerned about mankind than just myself because it is readily visible to me that what is toxic for mankind is toxic for me. Guess that's an unimaginable thing for some, but I don't believe I am alone in my thinking.

[Squinch]

87. Those people didn't care enough about their economic survival to listen long enough to find out

who would actually help them with their economic survival.

They were willing to believe the snake oil salesman over someone who would actually have made a positive difference in their lives because they were guided by their prejudices.

That's not self preservation. That's blaming your problems on a scapegoat and cutting your own throat. There's not a lot that can be done to bring people in that kind of a state around to reality.

[realmirage]

109. So tell me what the Democrats' plan was to help people in the rust belt?

[Squinch]

134. You can't look at Hillary's site either? Are your fingers broken? For people who are

"suffering" so, you'd think there would be some willingness to even look at what she was offering. But they didn't bother. And now you are doing the same. That's not "suffering." That's wallowing.

And her plan sure as hell didn't involve lying to them and telling them that a repeal of NAFTA would bring back their jobs. Her plan had the profound disadvantage of speaking the truth to them and showing them respect. Clearly it was misplaced.

[dawg]

138. A 15.00 an hour minimum wage ....

tuition-free college for people from families making less than $85,000 a year, reduced interest payments on existing student-loan debt, guaranteed maternal leave, and numerous improvements and repairs to our, admittedly, imperfect universal health insurance plan.

[KittyWampus]

168. Completely wrong. Most of it is not concious choice. Your comment is what's wrong with Democrats

in general.

Voters most often don't even engage in conscious thought.

Expecting rational arguments to sway voters is a losing strategy.

Especially when your opponent is pushing the fear and rage buttons repeatedly and often.

[SMC22307]

13. Racist AND misogynistic.

Plus Russians.

[PoorMonger]

16. Not That Simple

But we do need to find a way to communicate with a mass of people who aren't interested in actual facts. This is the major problem facing the Democratic Party losing the low information voter that has now become the false information voter. Trump's economic plan doesn't help them, and it was never designed to. It's a massive tax cut for rich people like him.

It isn't as sinister as finding a way to lie to them too - but we do need to appeal to their emotions more - that is what Trump did effectively. In a world where you can't convince people with facts ( because they aren't trusted) you need to find a way to connect them with realities of how they are being impacted.

We need a lot of help finding candidates for lower office in The House & Senate that these people can relate to first and foremost. In the aftermath of a loss like this we often want to look ahead at our next possible Presidential nominee ; but that's four years out. We need help now. We must dust ourselves off and work toward 2018 - and never give up pushing back against Trump or the tide of bullshit he will assuredly unleash upon our nation.

[realmirage]

17. They used to have thriving communities

and good jobs and now they don't. They blame NAFTA and globalist strategies like TPP and Trump was listening to them and we were not. Those are the facts. Perhaps we are the ones who can't deal with the facts

[SickOfTheOnePct]

19. Couldn't agree more n/t

[TwilightZone]

25. Trump wasn't listening to them. He was pandering to them.

He lied about everything else. Why would they believe him about jobs?

[realmirage]

27. Of course he listened

He has already made it his priority in the first 100 days to destroy TPP and NAFTA. That's why he won

[TwilightZone]

28. There are a multitude of reasons why he won.

Trade is only one of them.

[realmirage]

30. The rust belt flipped red

And people in those states have repeatedly said that free trade/jobs is their big issue. If we had listened we would have won

[LenaBaby61]

37. And what jobs plan ...

ideas DID tRump put out there as it relates to bringing all those Rust Belt jobs BACK here to the USA that were lost over 40 years ago due to automation amongst other things?

The man buys steel from China to build his buildings, but him buying steel from China employs Chinese workers--it doesn't give not ONE job to workers in THIS country where there are STILL steel mills cranking out steel. The man mass produces most of all his goods overseas which gives work to workers over there ---->, not here in the USA. The man said that $7.25 is TOO high of a federal minimum wage. He also said that maybe we don't NEED a federal minimum wage at all. How much per hour do these people think is a fair wage? Now, those are all facts too. What do they want to work FOR? $2.00, $3.00? Any lower than that, and they'll be working for FREE.

SO those "things" appeal to those who voted for him? You said they were listening to him. I don't think they were, because if they understood him and are willing to work for peanuts--that's if they GET a job--then they may be PAST the stage of reasoning with.

[realmirage]

49. He buys his steel and other things from China because

of NAFTA, and those people in the rust belt lost their jobs not due to automation but factory relocation after NAFTA. TPP is very similar and Trump was speaking to that issue and Hillary was not. It's very simple

[uponit7771]

116. No.. no ... no....he can buy steel in the US and not for twice its price. He buys steel in

... China for the slim margins not because he's saying 3/4 of the price.

I ship from China often because I have no choice, with steel DPutin has a choice

[AgadorSparticus]

81. It is a little difficult when we are held to an entirely different standard.

[Squinch]

89. Trump lied to them. When NAFTA and TPP are gone, their lives are not going to get any

better. Those are the facts. Hillary chose not to lie to them.

Hillary had plans that would actually improve the economic prospects for their communities. They did not believe that she did, though the plans were there for all to see, because they were blinded by their prejudices about her personally.

No. We are dealing with facts just fine. They are living in an alternate reality where someone is going to rescue them from mechanization and the march of progress. It's not going to happen. It's not "ignoring their plight" to be honest about that fact.

I'm just not going to flagellate myself because the rust belt made an idiotic choice. That is not a problem with us. That is a problem with them.

[uponit7771]

20. No ... They're not all racist... They do support a racist with their votes and that's bad enough

[realmirage]

23. They voted for economic survival

Not for racism. It's really very simple, and we need to revamp our economic message or suffer more defeats

[Demsrule86]

33. Plenty are racist pieces of shit...don't kid yourself.

[realmirage]

36. Racists have always existed, but that's not why they flipped red

[uponit7771]

40. With a 4.9% he rate and even lower in the lost HRC projected states? The jobless

.. recovery is a myth and MSN groupthink

[realmirage]

51. The jobless rate is misinterpreted

Job creation has not been in the middle/working class area. Low wage service jobs are not a replacement to well paying manufacturing jobs, and the unemployment rate isn't accounting for people who have given up looking

[uponit7771]

56. This is false on its face ... Waco link inside... Its a rwtp.. I wish we wouldn't repeat it

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/04/29/upshot/a-low-wage-recovery-the-evidence-isnt-there.html

The low wage recovery was something the right pushed nut was factually not the case after 2013...

Sans anecdotes

[realmirage]

60. Have you been to Michigan lately?

Go look at the abandoned towns and tell them the NY Times said everything is great. This is exactly the problem with our party.

[uponit7771]

65. Michigan's UE rate is 5.4% and the same can be said about towns in CA

... there are a lot of those places that are hurting but not willing to vote for an out right bullshitter like DPutin

Also I'd like to see the now and then UE rates of these places... I'm a lil sceptical they're doing worse now than before Obama was elected

We were fucked last time with the Americas economy is bad talk ... As if it's worse now

[Squinch]

92. "As if it's worse now." Exactly. This is nuts.

[realmirage]

99. take a look

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/11/22/daily-202-rust-belt-dems-broke-for-trump-because-they-thought-clinton-cared-more-about-bathrooms-than-jobs/58339cf3e9b69b7e58e45f1b/

[uponit7771]

112. article doesn't address the question about jobs in those areas then and now... if they're ...

... for the most part doing better then fuck em.

I wouldn't change too much seeing she lost by less than 100,000 votes... in 3 of those swing states

Jus make those 100k up in other areas of those states and try not to keep them so tight next time.

Part of my job is science by trade, there's no way I'm going to believe a damn poll without an empirical post mortem of how 95% of them got it so wrong in those states.

Even Silver isn't being empirical right now.. fuck him too... I'm not accounting for race without seeing his calculations.


On the other hand if the news that they seldom if ever went to those places to talk to them to keep the margins down then I can see how she lost those areas big... that's a tactical mistake not a strategic one ...

we'll see... I need to see before and after UE numbers for those "hurting" towns... not M$M groupthink

[realmirage]

113. So we are in the minority in

both houses of congress, we lost the white house, the supreme court, and republicans have way more governors in the country and your response is "I wouldn't change too much."

We have to wake up

[uponit7771]

114. We're in the minority in the house because of gerrymandering, that's a known knowm... we're

... in a minority in the senate because of REALLY REALLY fucked up exit polls and 4 generations of voting models being off and not taken the presidency because of the latter.

Give me calculations and not supposition, that's way more ... factual... to me....Everything else is bullshit guessing or M$M group think.

Dean's right, we have to have a 50 state strategy ... but not hammer ourselves on this when there's so much on the face of it that is so wrong mathemetically... I'm more of a facts person not a guess where I fucked up person.

Give me before and after UE rates in those counties ... I think the BLS has them already.

I see WI ... it has a 4.4 UE rate and a 2 year rising LFPR (so the bullshit "minimum wage recovery" is down the drain) but I'm trying to break it out county by county.

If those counties are still hurting then there's some credence to they felt left behind, if they're recovering from Bush then fuck em... feed em beans

no doubt

[realmirage]

117. exit polls?

Exit polls are to blame for our minority in the senate? That doesn't make sense. And how do you account for all the lost races for governor? It isn't just a coincidence the Democratic Party is basically useless at this point and you don't want to listen to the actual people who are voting against our party?

You don't need UE rates, you just need to listen to these people to find out why they didn't vote for our Party. And in case you missed it, here it is again..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/11/22/daily-202-rust-belt-dems-broke-for-trump-because-they-thought-clinton-cared-more-about-bathrooms-than-jobs/58339cf3e9b69b7e58e45f1b/

[uponit7771]

120. No but exit polls and 95% of the generational polling science being wrong something fucked

... up on its face and not "these people are left out" without anything empirical to prove such.

I'm looking at those WI counties and they're UE rate looks better now than when Obama got in office...


Fuck em... the ones that she lost ... fuck em... they want to go back to shit economics because whose in their bath rooms fuck em... those people can't be reached... they're voting for other reason than pocket book reasons.


I ... DO... need UE rates, fuck the bullshit... I need the UE rates to establish the fact they're saying they're worse off now than when Obama got into office.

Now what the fuck are their economics going to be under this asshole?!

How in the hell is he going to beat 4.4 UE rate with a rising LFPR in the counties that went red?

When they're WORSE ... WORSE in 2 years then they're not going to give a fuck about bathrooms... and if they do then let them soak in it... focus on flip counties Obama won and beat the margins lost with this year.

[HDSam]

123. Please tell...

me, how are the long-term unemployed (over 26 weeks) accounted for in the unemployment rate?

[uponit7771]

125. A rising LFPR, that's how I'm hedging the "jobs less recovery" MSM meme... Labor Force

... participation is rising and the U6 rate is falling then people who want a job and don't have a job are being accounted for in the U3 rate.

Either way, these counties have better economics now than then... why fuck that up with who's in their bathrooms?!

No, not all these people are racist but they're willing to support a person who's overtly one then there's something wrong on the face of things.

[gollygee]

78. I've been to Michigan

I'm here right now. I live in a half abandoned town. We're doing way better than we were during the recession.

Do you know who lives in Flint? Mainly people of color. Do you know for whom the people of Flint voted?

It was largely rural people in Michigan who voted for him. People in more industrial areas largely voted for Clinton. Do you have any idea how racist rural Michigan is? Rural Ohio? Rural Wisconsin? It's pretty bad.

[realmirage]

100. This is worth considering

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/11/22/daily-202-rust-belt-dems-broke-for-trump-because-they-thought-clinton-cared-more-about-bathrooms-than-jobs/58339cf3e9b69b7e58e45f1b/

[uponit7771]

124. Thank you for this, this is my theory also... that the rural towns are doing better economically

... now than they were during the recession and they just decided to be assholes and vote for the "those people" person.

I'm trying to break the UE and the LFPR rates down in those rural areas.

If they're mostly doing better now than in 2009 then fuck em

Of course, we need an all county and 50 state strategy to get the margins of loss to our side but thinking about flipping those areas .... I'm thinking they'll be more concerned about who uses their bathrooms.

[Squinch]

93. Ugh. This bullshit again.

[realmirage]

101. you mean this bullshit?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/11/22/daily-202-rust-belt-dems-broke-for-trump-because-they-thought-clinton-cared-more-about-bathrooms-than-jobs/58339cf3e9b69b7e58e45f1b/

[Squinch]

133. No, the bullshit you talked about in the above post of your gish gallop. But this is bullshit too.

Obviously.

[Cosmocat]

67. Yes, people voted for donald fucking trump

For their economic survival.

[realmirage]

103. The Democratic Party's message just failed, maybe you should be asking why

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/11/22/daily-202-rust-belt-dems-broke-for-trump-because-they-thought-clinton-cared-more-about-bathrooms-than-jobs/58339cf3e9b69b7e58e45f1b/

[Squinch]

91. Obviously they didn't because they voted for the candidate who has no prospect of improving

their economic situation. They voted for him over the candidate who had workable plans to help them.

So no. They didn't vote for economic survival. They didn't even bother to learn which candidate would actually help with their economic survival.

What would you have the message "revamped" to? That the heyday of the rust belt is going to return? That manufacturing jobs with unions are going to come back and those white boys are going to be handed the factory jobs that let them live at the standard their grandfathers lived? Because that's what they want to hear, and it doesn't seem like they will accept any other answer.

[Coventina]

102. They voted for an economic delusion using racist language.

Sorry, they do not get a pass from me.

[realmirage]

104. Riiight...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/11/22/daily-202-rust-belt-dems-broke-for-trump-because-they-thought-clinton-cared-more-about-bathrooms-than-jobs/58339cf3e9b69b7e58e45f1b/

[Coventina]

105. Donald Trump is a naked racist endorsed by the KKK.

Anyone who voted for him endorsed racism. Period.

[realmirage]

106. No, people vote their interests

Take a look

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/11/22/daily-202-rust-belt-dems-broke-for-trump-because-they-thought-clinton-cared-more-about-bathrooms-than-jobs/58339cf3e9b69b7e58e45f1b/

[uponit7771]

127. "bathrooms" being their interest then the DNC isn't going to reach them at all... they're ecomically

.. secure enough to give a fuck who's in their bathrooms while everyone else is trying to get and keep good jobs.

Then in that case you're right... the DNC isn't going to change their message to bathrooom issues to reach these people though

[Coventina]

129. Riiiiiight. Sunshine and lollipops being sold in the form of calling others rapists, murderers,

Reminiscing about the good old days when it was normal to beat "the Other".

All stuff peddled by a three time loser of a real estate agent who couldn't make money with a casino.

Anyone who voted for Trump can AT BEST be called extremely stupid. Any American amount of due diligence for being an informed voter would have raised them either to becoming pro Hillary, if they went for Trump they were evil. There's just no excuse for it.

[uponit7771]

118. I'd like to see this, if their lives are that much worse now than BEFORE Obama then you have a point

... but if their shit got better then fuck em... feed em beans.

Talk to em, yes... get the margin of loss slimmer ... yes...

But don't expect too much from them in the way of turning those places blue... they're lost

[realmirage]

119. What? They've been blue for a long time.. And you say just consider them lost forever?

Dude... come on

[uponit7771]

122. The flip counties have NOT been blue for a long time unless you're counting Obama as "long time"

... I'm talking about the counties she lost that Obama won in PA, WI, MI, and OH.

If those counties want to concentrate on who goes to their bathrooms vs who can develope their counties into centers of commerce then how in the hell are we supposed to reach them?

I'm not for second going to believe dems are just as bad as reps on the free trade issue either... that's false equivalence BS... dems aren't 100% innocent but there's no way they're just as bad.

Let them concentrate on who goes to their bathrooms when they have no more bathrooms maybe they'll think about it for second.

We need a 50 state and all county strategy... of course... just to get the margin of loss down... winning them?

NO... fuck that, its pretty hard to talk to people like that IMHO

[RobinA]

163. They Voted For

a pipe dream of economic survival. They continually and for quite some time now send people to Congress who are opposed to any effort to better their situation.

The Democrats need to do a better job of getting out what they are doing and are trying to do. Obama's attempt to significantly increase overtime eligibility only really got any notice when a judge in Texas said it was unConstitutional, and even then it probably got lost in the shuffle, because you would have had to, um...pay attention, to have caught it. He should have noted long and loud what they were doing, and exactly who opposed it and who was for it.

[BlueStater]

21. Perhaps not.

But it would seem they didn't care about other races enough to not cast a vote for that unqualified orange fuckball.

[melman]

22. Also

fuck the white working class. says right here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512622831

[realmirage]

24. That's the path to oblivion for the Party.

Economic survival in the rust belt is not a race issue

[melman]

29. I know

It's insanity.

[RandySF]

26. Not all Trump voters are racists.

But I bet 99% of racists are wearing MAGA hats.

[Squinch]

94. I have to say that I disagree. If they are willing to give his racism a pass because of some other

thing they think he can give them, they are racist.

I really think you have to have either overt or unexamined racism to have voted for him.

[MadamPresident]

31. No, they're stupid too.

Orange Julius got 40% of the union vote. These are very stupid people. I'm sorry, but that's just a fact. If you're a union guy and you voted for the right to work party, that makes you stupid. It just does. Being so naïve as to think that this billionaire novice is going to be looking out for the little guy is absurd. These people bought a line of bullshit so ridiculous that they cannot be taken seriously in any capacity.

It wouldn't be so bad if only they were made to suffer for this but we're all going to feel the pain.

[LenaBaby61]

39. No, they're stupid too.

EXCELLENT POST.

Like you said, some folks are just PAST the stage of reasoning WITH.

Voting in your own worst interest. Sorry, but that does make you dumb.

[spin]

75. In my opinion it may not be wise to call union voters who deserted ...

Hillary "stupid." That may be totally accurate in this case but when you call people stupid their immediate reaction is not positive in the least.

Many union voters have helped formed a strong and reliable voting block that voted for Democrats for generations. We need to talk with them and find out why we lost their loyalty of so many. It might be wise to find ways to address their concerns. We definitely should not alienate them.

Trump made many exorbitant promises. Even if he actually tries to deliver on them he will fall far short and it seems he has little or no desire to do even make the effort. I seriously doubt that he could win a second term in office and he may not even try. Still another candidate may pick up where he left off and push many of the policies he advocated in his campaign.

Still we did lose a significant portion of the union vote. Do they view that they have been taken for granted by the Democratic Party? Do they oppose trade agreements like NAFA and TPP as they feel it has cost them well paying jobs? How was Trump able to reach them? Would they have voted for Bernie or Biden but simply distrusted Hillary?

We can learn valuable lessons from this election if we try. We need to or we may find our party out in the cold. We may be the party of the intellectual elite and if true we should be smart enough to find how to appeal to those who lack a college education.

[realmirage]

111. precisely

[OhioBlue]

121. I agree.

[MadamPresident]

136. As a union worker I can attest to the stupidity.

Yes NAFTA sucked. Yes the TPP sucks. But to vote for a right to work person over an establishment person who has a record of supporting labor is just stupid. There's no other way around that.

Yes, the Democratic Party has put the interests of labor on the back burner since the late 80s but what exactly has the Republican Party done for labor ever? Absolutely nothing.

To not see the con that Trump has been running this entire time is the ultimate in naïveté. Union people who voted for him are the ultimate representation of P.T. Barnum's famous words.

And from what I heard from my colleagues, much of their desire to vote for him stemmed from the racial bullshit, flat out sexism and guns more than anything. I can't even tell you how many lame period jokes I heard about Hillary Clinton on the job site. People still think that shit's clever in the construction world. Just as they still think pointing out that Elton John is gay every time one of his songs comes on the radio is funny. A lot of these people are coming from an archaic mindset.

I can't think of anything else to call them but stupid. But we're just talking amongst ourselves here. Obviously, that's not how we should approach it from a national political perspective.

[spin]

151. Welcome to DU by the way. ...

You do agree that the Democratic Party has ignored labor since the late 80s. While the Reublicans have never done anything for labor perhaps they will begin to at least listen to the concerns of workers in the future. I doubt if we will lose all of our labor supprort but we could lose a portion of it.

While I have never worked construction I have known people who do. Before I moved after retiring one of my next door neighbors was a supervisor on construction sites. I conce asked him who were the best workers in construction and he told me it was definitely the Mexicans.

I come from a long line of union workers who worked in the iron and steel mills in Pennsylvania. All owned firearms and some had used them to defend themselves or their family. I also own firearms but on this issue it seems the Democratic Party has left me more than I have left them. In my opinion gun control is a ball and chain around the ankle of our party.

[RobinA]

164. Couldn't Agree More

I'm a union person as well, and I'll attest to the stupidity. The stuff you hear is unbelieveable. I, too, am a little bit at a loss as to how to reach these people who don't make any sense.

I do think Dems could do a better job at advertising what they do and try unsuccessfully due to a Repub Congress to do. If voters aren't going to make any attempt to know what is going on maybe it's time to hit them over the heads with it.

[Squinch]

95. Welcome, welcome, and fabulous post.

[Demsrule86]

32. I would say most Trump supporters are racist

But some voted because of trade in the rustbelt.

[spin]

77. I know people who definitely could be called racist. ...

They definitely showed up at the polls and voted against Obama twice but there were not enough of them to prevent him from winning.

Is racism in this nation growing significantly or are there prerhaps other reasons to explain why Hillary lost? In my opinion the loss of jobs in the rust belt due to trade treaties is definitely one of those reasons.

[OhioBlue]

126. yes! Top DEMS in Ohio have campaigned against trade deals for years

Sherrod Brown campaigned on "job killing trade deals". He wrote a book about it. He opposed Bill Clinton on NAFTA. Marcy Kaptur has campaigned against them. Brown is THE ONLY statewide Dem we have left! When Trump started his rhetoric against NAFTA I was worried for Ohio in a Trump vs Clinton match up. I almost switched parties to vote for Kasich because I thought it might lead to a brokered convention. I ultimately voted for Bernie in the primary. I didn't want to switch my party and thought he would run better against Trump because of trade deals and economy. Then, the conventions happened, the debates happened, the general campaign went on and p-gate happened. I had hope Ohio would go for Clinton, but the trade deals killed us. The giant sucking sound didn't only happen in the urban areas. It happened all over Ohio. Lots of empty factories or factories that have been turned into warehouses or assembly shops. Union jobs have been decimated as have working wages, employer provided health care, pensions, etc.

We can dismiss those voters, tell them we don't care, don't need them and call them names but that isn't going to help us win. Admittedly - I am still pissed at a lot of the Trump voters in my rural, Ohio area. But I want to flip enough of them for the next election rather than telling them to F*&k off.

[spin]

130. I grew up in Ohio but joined the Air Force back in the 1960s. ...

When I left the AF after one tour I went back to northern Ohio for a few months. Back in those days there were loads of good paying jobs in the local industries near Cleveland. However I decided that living once again in the snow belt was not for me. I moved to Florida and got a job in the aerospace industry. I retired after 37 years. I decided that since when people retired in Ohio they often headed to Florida so why not beat the rush.

Had I stayed in Ohio I would have watched all the jobs disappear and would most likely have had to start over somewhere else. I'm glad I left.

[Bradical79]

34. It's a reason, but not important

It's not somethingnto worry about as far as future elections go, I think. The 46% or so who didn't vote at all are who we should be thinking about, and implementing a 50 state strategy. Clinton won the popular vote, and Trump had less votes than Romney.

The positive is that this was in the face of a 40 year smear campaign, and the unprecedented event of both Russia and the FBI actively working against her, and massive voter suppression efforts by thr opposition.

Now think about how a few basic changes in the party could have overcome all that. If the supreme court and enviromental issues didn't make this past election so devastating, and Trump weren't so dangerously stupid and evil, I'd feel pretty good about the future.

There are real issues with corporate corruption inluencing the party that need dealt with, and a real 50 state strategy needs to be implemented.

I worry about overcorrecting on the issue of "identity politics" though. There's a lot of Bernie's message I like, which is why I voted for him in the primaries. The problem is that the idea that "a rising tide lifts all boats" is not really true. Lots of minorities in the U.S. have been left out of past periods of prosperity, and have been actively beat down when they do experience that. Talking about abandoning identity politics in favor of a pure economic message ignores reality. Identity and ecomimics is linked. You need both messages.

[alarimer]

80. It is incredibly easy to get people to turn on each other.

We forget sometimes that this is how Republicans have operated for decades, only not so nakedly.
There have been plenty of nativists in American politics even before that. It's non-racism that is the anomaly.

I take a dim view of human nature myself and think it will always be with us because it is human nature to be tribal. Only liberal values will save us. There has been a retreat from those values lately and not just in the US. This shit is happening all over.

We can overcome but we need a Democratic Party that is truly progressive and works for everyone. From a simple numbers point of view, we cannot write off millions of voters, side we still have the Electoral College. And the President is still President of all the states.

The larger issue is Democratic Party establishment and the fact it is so out of touch. Some of the "elitist" criticism is valid.

[duncang]

35. From what I've seen no

There is a pretty fair amount that are. But not all are. A few friends of mine only watch faux news and accept as the truth all the email lies. They have been conditioned over the years that democrat, liberal, progressive are all cuss words. And anything repub is good and holy. Obama and all the democrats were going to take everyone's guns away and declare marshal law. Even the union friends think the unions are evil they have been brainwashed so thoroughly. One friend I have asked was I evil when I saved you from being fired as a union steward? Were you evil the whole 35 years you worked union? Or was it all the profit was going to stock options the board was getting making more in a hours time selling them then our groups entire years pay?

[Bucky]

44. but we shouldnt treat getting duped by racists as indelible moral stain

People who in their economic despair yielded to prejudicial thinking arent morally lost forever. They just need to hear better arguments from the party that has their true interests at heart.

We aren't going to retake the House by dismissing two thirds of white voters as racists. You have to be more pragmatic than that

[liquid diamond]

38. Trump told

those dumb fuckers a bunch of lies and they believed him. If we stoop to lying and courting racist whites, then I don't want to be a Democrat anymore.

[realmirage]

41. You mean we shouldn't try to address unemployment in the rust belt?

Sounds like a shit strategy

[Bucky]

43. People who think all Trump voters are racists are not thinking clearly

but as Baron Montesquieu told us in the 1750s, it's very hard for a country to have a republican form of government when its size is so big and its interests are so deeply diverse.

[liquid diamond]

45. It's a waste of time.

They don't listen. Fuck them.

[realmirage]

48. So losing again is your strategy?

[Squinch]

96. That's what you got from that post? Sounds like a shit reading.

[Bucky]

42. No, that would be a dumb, hopeless message

People were suckered by Trump and abandoned by the Dems who quit fighting for the working class so hard.

We can get back to equilibrium, but it will take backing away from chumminess with Wall Street fat cats

[jack_krass]

46. This is the message of most of the "elites" on this site. I think the Democratic party

in general knows better, and will adopt a more inclusive posture.

[realmirage]

52. I hate to admit it but the elitist label

rings true when the condescending "they're all racist" charge is rolled out rather than honest introspection

[Hekate]

47. Is that your takeaway from this RIGGED election?

Because in case you have not noticed yet, Hillary won the popular vote.

[realmirage]

53. You didn't read the whole op did you...

And all I have to do is listen to fellow democrats to know that the racism excuse is the default response

[LaydeeBug]

50. binary thinking is stinking thinking, and you are letting

THEM frame the debate.

[realmirage]

55. So your strategy

is not to listen to the people in the rust belt that just switched parties and put Trump in the White House? Ok, guess we can start writing the Democratic party's obituary

[LaydeeBug]

58. again, the binary, either this or that, is YOUR fallacy, not mine. nt

[bettyellen]

76. Yep- every person positing this let's cater to the rust belt is ignoring a hell of a lot....

And making up narratives that suit the strategy they'd like to see.

[LaydeeBug]

79. I know, right? From bathrooms to bimbos...it never ends. nt

[Squinch]

97. Again, that's what you got from that post? You keep putting words in people's mouths that are not

even remotely there.

[emulatorloo]

72. Thank you.

[Lotusflower70]

54. I hope not

No doubt it was a factor but we can't focus on that. We have to focus on the economy and jobs. And we have to stay on message. Remain proactive not reactive.

[realmirage]

57. Well said. We have to learn from this.

We aren't backing away from social issues, we're just bringing back an economic message to go with it that's isn't shit

[JI7]

59. most of them are racist and all give racism a pass

[elleng]

61. 'Our' message seems to be all over the map,

which is why we should take great care in reforming the Democratic Party.

[earthside]

62. Clinton lost because Clinton forgot ...

... that "it's the economy, stupid."

I agree 100 percent with the OP: how is calling 61 million voters racists and misogynists a winning message for the future?

That being said, here is what I expect to hear from the establishment Democratic Party ...

1) We was robbed.
2) The conservatives won, so we probably ought to become more conservative if want to win in 2018.

[JHan]

74. And yet..

Her economic vision and understanding of it is much better than his.. so how did you arrive at this?

No those coal jobs ARE NOT coming back, would you have rather she lied?

And yeah, if people are going to vote for a xenophobic racist fuck I am going to wonder why those facts weren't deal breakers for them at the ballot box.. I'll keep asking it! - Why did you vote for a man with a divisive platform, I'm going to wonder about the things they can ignore conveniently and the things they choose not to ignore. And yes, believe or not, millions of people can be racist.

[earthside]

139. It's pretty elemental politics.

If you can't communicate your message and/or proposals or if not enough people believe you ... you are going to lose.

And that is what happened where it mattered in 2016.

Trump will loot the national treasury, no doubt about it.
However, whining and moaning about racism, misogyny, et al. is not going to restore the Congress to the Democrats in 2018 nor put a Democrat in the White House in 2020.

If Democrats don't focus most of their attention and ideas on how to appeal to ALL working middle class Americans, then they are doomed for a generation.

[JHan]

140. You can't convince me that her message didn't pierce through to people..

She's won the popular vote, she lost the electorate college by 60,000 votes. That is not a rejection of the liberal platform.

[earthside]

143. She lost where it mattered.

We will see that the run-up in Clinton's popular vote comes from California, New York, Massachusetts, etc.

And, whether you are ever convinced or not, in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania enough economically stressed voters didn't like or believe Clinton and she lost.

[JHan]

144. I'll share this post again..

As I said in my other post to you, I acknowledge the failings in the midwest..

.. The larger argument is that the country is divided and not necessarily because of economic reasons.

A significant number of Trump supporters make above 60k a year. Struggling urbanites making less than 50k voted Clinton. Clinton also didn't do too shabby among rural voters last I checked.

The problem with Clinton was the arrogance of her campaign towards the midwest - her campaign manager ignored Bill's sage advice to stay in the midwest and push hard for those extra votes. Bill's political instincts are sharper and better than hillary's and all her advisors combined, but this does not mean that the nation rejected Hillary and embraced Trump and his economic message.

Most Americans clearly saw through the bullshit.

[earthside]

147. Right to the nub of the matter.

The problem with Clinton was the arrogance of her campaign towards the midwest - her campaign manager ignored Bill's sage advice to stay in the midwest and push hard for those extra votes. Bill's political instincts are sharper and better than hillary's and all her advisors combined, but this does not mean that the nation rejected Hillary and embraced Trump and his economic message.

Yup ... couldn't agree more.

[JHan]

148. We can also add..

1) August was a critical month for the Clinton Camp - they dropped the ball.

2) The Democrats should have prepared for this year being the first year without Voting Rights Act in place and mobilized the Carolinas and other Southern States - they dropped the ball again.

3) A targeted campaign to retake the house should have started way back in 2013 and hooked onto the eventual Nominee. We had a 30 seat deficit ( this should have been the focus)

But number 2 really sores me up. We REALLY REALLY REALLY Should have prepared better for that.

[JHan]

141. People are trying to work up a narrative around the narrowest of victories for Trump in the midwest.

When the larger argument is that the country is divided and not necessarily because of economic reasons.

A significant number of Trump supporters make above 60k a year. Struggling urbanites making less than 50k voted Clinton. Clinton also didn't do too shabby among rural voters last I checked.

The problem with Clinton was the arrogance of her campaign towards the midwest - her campaign manager ignored Bill's sage advice to stay in the midwest and push hard for those extra votes. Bill's political instincts are sharper and better than hillary's and all her advisors combined, but this does not mean that the nation rejected Hillary and embraced Trump and his economic message.

Most Americans clearly saw through the bullshit.

[ismnotwasm]

68. I don't know about "ours" but mine? yeah-sexist and racist

I will never stop fighting

[treestar]

70. Yes

Why don't they admit it? Why can't we acknowledge that? It's a fact.

[emulatorloo]

71. Hyperbolic mischaracterization.

[Lil Missy]

73. Who is this "our" you speak of?

Does this mean that someone said something that you took out of context and attributed it to the whole population of DU? Or the entire population of Democrats?

[emulatorloo]

86. You nailed it. It is a strawman argument.

[Squinch]

98. Putting words in the mouths of others that others never said seems to be a talent with this one.

[musicblind]

82. The electoral college does not take away their vote or diminish them.

Candidates would have to visit MORE states, not less, in order to focus on the popular vote.

Votes in states like Wyoming would matter again, both blue votes and red votes.

Not to mention that only 29% of people want to keep the Electoral College:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/159881/americans-call-term-limits-end-electoral-college.aspx

[50 Shades Of Blue]

83. In my book anyone who votes for a racist, is a racist.

Anyone so out of touch with reality as to believe Donald Trump gives the teeniest tiniest most microscopic shit about putting them back to work in a factory or mine has more problems than living in the rust belt They are just using that as an excuse. He spoke to their bigotry.

[KingCharlemagne]

85. All Trump voters are either racist, misogynist or both. They deserve the

fucking they are about to get, just as the yobs who voted for Reagan deserved the worst recession since the Great Depression. Fuck 'em.

[hueymahl]

88. Thank you for your post

One of the few voices of reason left in this place.

[Lint Head]

115. The type of ignorance that causes a person

to not comprehend beyond their own pocket book, other than being on the edge of starvation, is the type of ignorance that gives us a Donald Trump. To me Trump lives by the mantra that money is not everything but the only thing. His twisted politics reeks of this ignorance. That empathy, integrity and morality is an afterthought when it comes to life is typical of his personalty type.
It's a sad commentary that people vote thier pocketbooks. I think it's less human nature and more false promises of riches which most people will never see that drives voting. A lot of issues have been voted on that have nothing to do with money. A party with a true vision and goal for the future and can effectively cut through the noise that the love of money creates can win.

[pnwmom]

128. They are all willing to vote for a man who blatantly pushed racist and sexist

memes throughout his campaign.

I think she would have won if James Comey hadn't dropped his letter bombs into the final days.

[Mike Nelson]

131. No, not all were...

...but bigotry was his message - hate coupled with fear. The "rust belt" media thing is a simple way they avoid the truth. I will not stop talking about the bigotry and, considering the Trump picks, it will be difficult to avoid.

[MyNameGoesHere]

132. I do feel for those in the rust belt.

It must be really tiring to be racist, whining, and ignorant automatons.

[quantumjunkie]

135. Electing Chuck Shumer as our new party Leader is not a good sign

The man has contempt for the rust belt folks. Recall he said the goal was to pick up moderate republicans.

[ucrdem]

142. "Economic survival" is why they voted for Obama who saved their bacon.

Unemployment is now below 5% in most of the rust belt, gas prices are down, travel is up, times are good. So many voters had the luxury of voting according to the backwash they see on teevee. If times were as hard as all that they wouldn't have.

[Yo_Mama]

146. Agree - no matter how people feel, this approach is self-defeating.

Many of these people voted for Obama once or twice. They are just not seeing any progress, and yes, they wanted to have that addressed in the election.

That's how democracy is supposed to work.

That's what the Democratic party is supposed to do.

[realmirage]

152. I'm glad that there are people out there that can still see past their emotions

and realize that people will vote for their own survival before they vote for ANYTHING ELSE. That is human nature. If we don't become the party that fights for the working class again, the rust belt will make damn sure the Democratic Party fades into history.

[RobinA]

165. Don't Disagree

with your statement that people vote for economic survival first, although it pays to know what they consider "for" their survival, it might not be what other people think is "for" their survival. But what's the response in this instance when a large group of people, enough to swing an election, vote against their economic survival. Repeatedly. And I'm not just talking President.

[Lizz612]

153. "Social issues"?

people vote for their economic survival first and social issues second.

The economic survival (and actual survival) of non-white people is not a social issue. It's an economic issue for non-white people and it's an economic issue for white people, we just need to be better at explaining that economic truth to white people.

[wordpix]

157. no - message is "election integrity" and "voter solutions"

if we can get that through the Trumpsters' brains, maybe we can get somewhere

[RobinA]

160. Except For The Fact

that these people have been voting against their economic interest for quite some time now. They vilify Obama while he pushes legislation that would increase significantly the number of people eligible for overtime. As well, a lot more of them have health insurance than did before.

Article in either the Philadelphia Inquirer or the NYT this Sunday about Trump voters in Florida who hope he doesn't do away with ACA because they really depend on it. I'm not allowed to "condescend" to this kind of thinking, so I won't, but

[backscatter712]

161. At the bare minimum, they saw all the racist shit, and decided they could tolerate it.

That makes every single Trump voter an asshole in my book.

Every. Damned. One.

[uponit7771]

162. 1000, "and decided they could tolerate it."

[BSdetect]

166. Include the points raised in this article in any proposed solution

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/rural-america-understanding-isnt-problem

[PufPuf23]

167. If that is what was learned by the 2016 election, the Democratic party has underestimated the scope

of the problem we face.

Regardless, I am sticking with the Democratic party, my life long affiliation however disappointing.

If DU (and specifically this thread) is indicative, Democrats have not had a learning moment from the election.