Maybe we should back off of the self-righteous, black and white...

[LAS14]

... indignation about Trump's prediction of rigging.

Before you knee jerk respond, I DON'T think there's rigging going for Hillary in this particular election.

But it troubles me to jump on the accusation as un-American. During the civil rights movement there were lots of cries about rigging. And they were TRUE. And we did something about it.

I think Trump is wrong, but not particularly dangerous in regard to this specific issue. Let him point to concrete verifiable instances. We'll fix them. Let him refuse to give a concession speech. After Nov 8th who cares what the hell he does?

But the mere whining of a potential loser isn't going to undermine our democracy any more than the calls for justice in our electoral processes did in the 60's or than they do today.

[unblock]

1. if we could take him at his word, i might agree with you. however,

he's not saying it because he honestly wants a fair vote count.

he's saying it in order to justify having voter suppression/intimidation forces on the ground in major democratic areas.


in other words, it's an orwellian effort to *create* vote-rigging.

[LAS14]

3. Yeah, but who cares? It's just one more Trump lie. And the critics...

... are not as nuanced as you are.

I think it damages us in the eyes of the world to give his stupid rants validity. Keep thinking of it as "I won't give a concession speech," and it recedes in importance.

[unblock]

4. if there weren't people on the ground motivated by his hate and selfish crap, yeah.

if all it was was we have a legitimate election, he loses fair and square, and then he behaves like a baby and refuses to accept defeat, then sure, that would be a rhetorical win for us and one final self-inflicted wound by donnie.

but the reality is that his bigoted supporters are forming squads to go into heavily democratic precincts and trying to do some very anti-democratic stuff. *that*'s the problem, and we can't be silent about that.

[LAS14]

5. I agree that we shouldn't be silent about that. It's the right thing to focus on. nt

[A-Schwarzenegger]

2. I for one am proud of you for backing off

your self-righteous indignation about Trump undermining our democracy.

[randome]

6. There was too much chatter about vote rigging during the Democratic Primary, too.

That may have made it more 'palatable' to engage in that rhetoric now. I agree, Trump will fall and fall hard. There will be no 'revolution', nor will a doubt remain about who wins the election.

The indignation is needed, however, since Trump's statements have ripple effects that extend beyond our borders. The rest of the world does not need this kind of uncertainty in American politics.

Indignation and mockery are the proper response.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"Everybody is just on their feet screaming 'Kill Kill Kill'! This is -hockey- Conservative values!"
-Slap Shot (1977)[/center][/font][hr]

[treestar]

7. He is just making it up with no evidence

all he has is his inability to believe he could lose. There's no substance there.

[True_Blue]

8. So far Trump hasn't presented any evidence

That there's been any rigging of the polls. It's just an excuse to send his brown shirts into minority neighborhoods to suppress the votes there.

[Hortensis]

9. "Let him point to concrete verifiable instances." For RIGGING?

"We'll fix them?" What, we'll fix RIGGINGS, plural?

What are you trying to do here?

[LAS14]

10. You don't call literacy tests rigging? You don't call the voters' rights act fixing?

[Hortensis]

11. Oh, is THAT what you're suggesting? Fooled me.

Or not.

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. Don't forget about Bullhorn Bill!

(That's what the OP is really about, by the way.)

[Hortensis]

17. Rubbish. Bill Clinton did not break the law and

certainly did not "rig" anything for anyone, no matter how much anti-Hillary conspiracists on JPR love the idea.

[alcibiades_mystery]

18. I know that, and you know that...

[Hortensis]

34. Ah,...

[A-Schwarzenegger]

14. Linking Trump's jerkoff horseshit with civil rights ought to work real well here.

[emulatorloo]

13. Maybe we should back off from apologizing for Trump and Breitbart's propaganda operation

They are making up shit w no evidence. Goal is the delegitimization of the election and presidency of HRC.

You can join in their game if you want to. You can be gullible enough to eat up every conspiracy theory presented to you.

I hope that instead you'll recognize it for what it is: lies and poisoning the well for when Democrats win.

[LAS14]

15. Like I said, please don't give me a knee jerk reaction.

"I hope that instead you'll recognize it for what it is: lies and poisoning the well for when Democrats win."

Check out what I said here in the thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512540318#post3

[emulatorloo]

16. I'm giving you the reaction your OP deserves.

[BobbyDrake]

19. Please don't compare Trump's candidacy to the Civil Rights Movement.

[LAS14]

21. I wasn't. I was asking for Dems to model rational, consistent behavior.

[BobbyDrake]

32. Practice what you preach, maybe.

This kind of stuff is just embarrassing for you.

Voting fraud is ridiculously rare, so much so that judges are throwing laws based on it out of court left and right. The idea that Trump will find even a single instance of voter or election fraud that we will then have to "fix" is laughable.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

23. Yep. Epitome of apples and oranges and

avocados and a couple drunk jugglers in there too.

[lovemydog]

20. Voter suppression, in terms of restricting who can

vote & when they can vote, is definitely very real. So yes, I understand your point.

It's valuable to make the distinction between voter suppression and saying 'the whole system is rigged.'

The way republicans like Trump talk about it, they talk about the system being 'rigged' but they only talk about 'voter fraud' like dead people being registered to vote or mickey mouse & elmer fudd voting for democrats. Bipartisan research demonstrates this isn't a genuine problem. But republicans keep repeating it as though it's some nationwide epidemic and really it's just code for 'watch out for those black people in urban areas and immigrants!'

Research & history and recent events shows that voter suppression is real. There's a great book called The New Jim Crow that goes into some of this history in case you want to check it out. Examples of voter suppression include requiring drivers licenses to vote, not allowing former felons to vote, restricting the times of polls being open, restricting early voting, not putting enough polling booths up in large heavily populated areas, forcing people to stand in long lines that may take hours to vote. In the past they included literacy tests, poll taxes, all sorts of other shenanigans that restricted voting.

It's similar to democrats vs. republicans on taxes. Democrats are saying raise taxes on the rich, don't raise taxes at all on anyone making $250,000 or less. Republicans want to severely cut taxes on the richest, then claim they're 'lowering taxes on everyone - democrats will to raise taxes on everyone!' - a specious claim.

Yes, I would say there's rigging and it comes in the form of voter suppression, as it did in the sixties with the jim crow laws that suppressed voting. By the way, I'm sorry that some folks on this thread are missing your important points.

[LAS14]

22. Thanks!

[lovemydog]

27. You're welcome. Here's an article by Steny Hoyer

explaining that voter fraud is nearly impossible.

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/presidential-campaign/301969-trumps-rigged-election-claims-are-further-proof-he

And here's a recent article from The Atlantic on how voter suppression a much bigger problem than voter fraud.

https://www.thenation.com/article/voter-suppression-is-a-much-bigger-problem-than-voter-fraud/

Thanks for raising this issue. It caused me to do some more research.

We can all sharpen our wits by making the distinction between voter suppression (real & prevalent) and voter fraud (exaggerated by conservative republicans).

[arthritisR_US]

24. I don't think there is rigging going on with respect to

the presidential race but I think there is with down ticket races.

[NCTraveler]

25. No need to back off.

Societies most privileged asshole is out there beating it to death with no proof. Not only should we not lay off, we should connect it to his entitlement in every area of life.

[apcalc]

26. Maybe it'll be rigged so Trump wins. I put nothing past the R's and their voting machines.

[Democat]

28. You're right, Trump and Dr. Martin Luther King

Two great Americans.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

29. Ding!

The message is so poorly thought out & delivered, it's hard to know if malice or clumsiness is the driving force.

[Orsino]

30. Trump has not made an accusation, but an excuse.

Until he offers specifics, and evidence to back them up, his thesis is worthless and ought to be rejected out of hand as easily as we would any Breitbart conspiracy theory.

[LAS14]

31. I do reject HIS thesis. I worry about the MSM (and DU) thesis...

... that talking about questioning election results is un-American. Focus on his lie. Don't focus on the idea that nobody has ever threatened to not accept the results of an election. That's just not true.

[NurseJackie]

33. Stop.

[Cosmocat]

35. Yes, lets join republicans in preemptively delegitimizing

POTUS Clinton ...