What a choice we will have in November

[Vattel]

A choice between someone who describes violent regime change in Libya as "smart power at its best" and someone who said that as President he would kill the family members of terrorists. We really know how to pick a CIC.

[tonyt53]

1. You do realize that the Secretary of State works directly for the President, don't you.

They do and say exactly what the President wants them to, or they are gone - like Colin Powell.

[Vattel]

4. She didn't work for the president when she said this.

And as SOS, she strongly urged Obama to choose violent regime change in Libya.

[Demsrule86]

87. Qaddafi was a monster and I don't know how you stop the people who wanted him gone.

The guy murdered many Americans...Also, Bush destabilized the entire middle east and there are no good answers...look at Syria...this is more sore loserism. Why not blame the GOP, they caused it...you all act like Libya was some kind of great stable country, and it wasn't. Had we done nothing...Qaddafi was about to murder a huge amount of his own people...You seriously make me ill with this nonsense...two days left.

[Vattel]

90. Your post is pathetic.

Everything from ad hominem ("more sore loserism&quot to straw men ("you all act like Libya was some kind of great stable country&quot .

[Demsrule86]

94. Really

I think most of your posts are sad and pathetic. And I don't care if you call mine pathetic...badge of honor. Libya like all the middle east since Bush's invasion is a mess...and there are few good solutions...supposedly you are a liberal then why blame the Democrats for Libya? I would also add that my neighbor in Connecticut lost his only child over Scotland thanks to Qaddafi. I have not noticed Syria going well either...but of course, Libya gives you a chance to attack the Presumptive nominee so you can't resist. Your hatred for Hillary is stronger than your desire to stop Trump. Bernie has lost. Time to move on. And stop posting attack articles about Libya and other subjects. Pres. Obama decides policy, and I for one can not be sorry that Qaddafi is gone.

[Vattel]

106. Do you know what an ad homimen or a straw man is?

[ljm2002]

96. Yes, Bush et al destabilized the Middle East...

...too bad that 8 years of a Democratic President didn't do more to stabilize it. Both Libya and Syria are cases in point. One of the obvious lessons to be learned from Iraq was, when you depose a strongman leader, you risk worse chaos in the aftermath. That lesson went unlearned in both Syria and Libya, and we see the results today.

One does not have to like or approve of Assad or Qadaffi to see that it was unwise to pour arms into those areas and to think we know which rebels are "good" rebels vs. which rebels will turn on us and fight against our interests.

But you must be a supporter of the invasion of Iraq, since after all, Saddam Hussein was a Bad Guy (TM). So obviously our actions were justified, right?

Pathetic indeed.

[SCantiGOP]

5. OP just trying to be provocative

This crap will disappear after next Thursday.

[tecelote]

7. OK - I deleted a similar comment because it was inappropriate for the first post but...

Good excuse for more war.

Hillary can rival any Republican in her use of the military to solve other nations problems.

I'm sick over our country's use of the military. Peacekeepers no more. We're an outright aggressive superpower.

Cheney was an evil genius and he's still profiting from his con. Hillary and Trump will only continue his well executed plan.

[yeoman6987]

11. Hillary does support war but her positives out weigh that

And whether we want to or not, we have to take care of ISIS. We have no choice.

[Miles Archer]

15. No "positives" outweigh people getting killed or maimed or...

...spending the rest of their lives dealing with PTSD.

And whether we have to "take care of ISIS" or not, we'd damned well better have a better plan than when we "took care of Saddam" in order to "take care of binLaden."

[Ghost Dog]

42. Russia, Iran, Kurds, other locals

can take out Daesh, if US would just back off a bit...

[tecelote]

43. We have no choice because we created the situation.

And, we will continue to do so it seems.

[swhisper1]

52. it does appear so

[pangaia]

102. "Hillary does support war but her positives out weigh that.."

My god in heaven, I can not believe somebody actually wrote that with a straight face.

[Florencenj2point0]

36. shorter tecelote

waaaaaaaaaaa st bernard lost!

[tecelote]

41. And many people will lose their lives because of it.

Enjoy your wars.

[libdem4life]

56. High level of political discourse. Speaks for itself.

[jillan]

19. And our President has said Libya has been his biggest regret.

[pampango]

34. Indeed. "Mr Obama named the failure to plan for the aftermath of Col Gaddafi's ousting as Libyan

leader, which sparked years of instability that are only just showing signs of easing.

Even this apparent display of humility from Mr Obama, given as he considered his legacy, was qualified by his belief the intervention was "the right thing to do".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36018223

[swhisper1]

28. Hillary has always worked for the good of Hillary

I doubt Obama knew she was taking bribes thru the Foundation using her powerful position as SoS

She does not even like Obama and Bill hates him

[Florencenj2point0]

37. Bribes? Link?

how do you figure that? Since she takes no salary (neither do Chelsea or Bill BTW) I am not sure how that is possible.

[pangaia]

105. Do you mean you do not know the difference between a salary and a bribe?

Yikes....

[JoePhilly]

75. They used to blame Obama for all the worlds ills ... now they blame ...

... Hillary.

Oddly, they rarely blame the GOP for anything.

[ljm2002]

95. You mean like...

...when the President says "Whatever you do, DON'T hire THIS GUY" (Sidney Blumenthal) -- so you don't hire Sid at State, but instead you hire him at your own big nonprofit operation at $100K+ per year, and then take advice from him on affairs of state? Like that?

Or do you mean she had no decision-making power of her own? Because if that's what you mean, then I fail to see how her being SOS prepared her for being POTUS in any way, shape or form.

Please clarify.

[tecelote]

2. Peace is no longer part of the American vocabulary.

Someone please show us how to profit from peace more than war or it will never be.

[MFM008]

6. 5 days

for these sorts of musings.

[tecelote]

8. Pro war. Yeah!

[rhett o rick]

10. Curious why you bother to read and respond to these posts? I mean if you don't like them

you can simply ignore them. But I think it's more than that. You want to see harsh actions taken against those with whom you don't agree. But once that's over, where will you be? In heaven where everyone agrees with each other? This doesn't sound very much like the behavior of the "politically liberal" which is what DU is supposed to be.

[Night Watchman]

9. I used to be young

I'm not anymore. And in this life, most of the important decisions we make boil down to TLOOTE.

[mahina]

33. I'll bite.

Tloote??

[Night Watchman]

71. The "o" on this PC runs

It should have been TLOTE. Sorry about that!

[mahina]

74. What does that mean?

If you are wishing to be understood.

[bvf]

81. "The lesser of two evils." n/t

[mahina]

93. Roger.

Thank you.

[Old Codger]

12. Choice???

[VulgarPoet]

85. The illusion of.

[StevieM]

13. We have a choice between getting Merrick Garland confirmed or not. (eom)

[swhisper1]

29. he is a republican leaning choice, not a good one

[Florencenj2point0]

38. that's just asinine

[geek tragedy]

14. You seem to be struggling with this decision nt

[msongs]

16. bernie is no peace-nik, he's fine with killing all kinds of people with drones including "family

members of terrorists"

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/11/bernie-sanders-drones-counter-terror

[Vattel]

22. oh please, that "Bernie is a hawk too" stuff is so lame

[Duval]

101. And so false, it's almost laughable.

[oasis]

17. The silver lining: We are citizens of the greatest country on the planet.

[swhisper1]

30. sorry, we are no longer the greatest except size of Military

in all else we are dropping fast

[Tarc]

18. 5 days

[Florencenj2point0]

39. I can't wait

[jamese777]

20. Gallup Poll

Since 1946 the Gallup Organization has been conducting an annual poll of the Most Admired Person or the Most Admired Man & Woman.
Eleanor Roosevelt finished first thirteen times and Dwight Eisenhower finished first twelve times. Hillary Clinton has finished first a record twenty times. That kind of positive name recognition goes a long way in politics.
Most Admired Woman
1990: Margaret Thatcher
1991: Barbara Bush
1992: Barbara Bush
1993: Hillary Rodham Clinton
1994: Hillary Rodham Clinton
1995: Mother Teresa
1996: Mother Teresa
1997: Hillary Rodham Clinton
1998: Hillary Rodham Clinton
1999: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2000: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2001: Laura Bush
2002: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2003: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2004: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2005: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2006: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2007: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2008: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2009: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2010: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2011: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2012: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2013: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2014: Hillary Rodham Clinton
2015: Hillary Rodham Clinton
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1678/most-admired-man-woman.aspx

[swhisper1]

31. not really, if laura bush got it 3 times, thats a very low bar

[Florencenj2point0]

40. Laura Bush is not her husband

are you dense? She is pro-choice and always has been. She is a good person. She brought up two nice daughters who are no doubt in my mind, liberals. They were a mess in college, who wasn't?
Really get the hell over it. Bernie lost and partly because of his right wing libertarian stance on several issues, gun control, border militia, Amber Alert, dumping nuclear waste on poor Mexican Americans in TX.

[swhisper1]

50. she did kill someone and got off scott free, and did nothing when in the WH

in fact, lied through her teeth to support said hubby

[earthshine]

70. Link please?

Laura Bush was an opportunist when she was young. She went from liberal to conservative so she could join the Bush family.

She NEVER made any public statements about being pro choice, and never spoke against conservative positions as first lady. Show me a link if you think otherwise!

Judge people by the company they keep. So, the same people who admire Laura Bush, Barbara Bush, and Margaret Thatcher admire Hillary Clinton.

Shameful!

[baldguy]

35. But Hillary is just *SO* unpopular.

[swhisper1]

54. scandals do make a name well known

[baldguy]

64. Given that Clinton is **Most Admired**, people understand that those "scandals" are bullshit.

You have 4 days.

[swhisper1]

65. ignore

[baldguy]

67. You ignore the truth.

[Demsrule86]

21. First of all let's not pretend Qaddafi was a Saint...he was a murderer and a despot.

The people wanted him out...thanks to the destabilization of the middle east by George Bush and the Arab Spring; I can't blame them as he was a monster...he was no friend to us having killed a fair number of our people over Scotland and engaged in other Terrorist strikes-I don't mourn for this murderer....killing innocent family members is way worse and if you were not so obsessed with Sanders and angry over his loss, you would see that. Obama was in charge when Hil was in ,and it was his policy that was implemented...we have the same situation in Syria...and many have died there too...and Kerry is the SOS also following Obama's policy. Thanks to the GOP invading the Middle East, there are few good options...so stop blaming follow Dems for problems they did not cause and giving the evil GOP a free pass... You work for the president ,You follow the president's policy. Pres. Obama is doing the best he can with the cards he was dealt by Bush Et AL ...and if you really give a damn, do all you can, to keep a worse Republican out...Donald Trump.

[Vattel]

24. see post 4

Last edited Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:34 PM - Edit history (2)

no one is pretending Qaddafi was a saint, and no one is suggesting that killing the innocent is no worse than killing a monster like Qaddafi. Your willingness to suggest that I have positive things to say about Qaddafi or that I equate killing him with killing the innocent says a lot.

[Cheese Sandwich]

26. Nice strawman re: claims of Qaddafi sainthood

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

You did it perfectly.

The point is not Qaddafi, the point is Hillary's policy in Libya made the situation 1000 times worse. A real human tragedy of epic proportion.

And yes she is to blame.

From the New York Times:

The president was wary. The secretary of state was persuasive. But the ouster of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi left Libya a failed state and a terrorist haven.

link

As the secretary of state in 2011, Hillary Clinton pressed the Obama administration to intervene militarily in Libya, with consequences that have gone far beyond the fall of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi.

link

[swhisper1]

32. yes she is

[Vattel]

45. The dishonesty of many DU supporters of Clinton

never fails to amaze me. Thanks for effectively exposing it here.

[Duval]

104. Indeed, she is.

[Cheese Sandwich]

23. They already kill the family members of suspected terrorists

It's only controversial because it sounds nasty when Trump says it out loud.

[Vattel]

25. The US does not target family members of terrorists. Trump wants to target them.

[swhisper1]

51. except Sadam's sons

[Vattel]

59. They were part of the regime and so seen as appropriate targets in their own right.

[swhisper1]

61. not buying it, They did absolutely nothing to be attacked. Iraq was innocent of 9-11

or maybe you believe in regime change when it is none of our business

[Vattel]

62. I agree that the invasion of Iraq was immoral.

And so no one should have been targeted by us because we shouldn't have been at war. My only point is that the US does not have a policy of attacking innocent bystanders merely because they are the family members of terrorists.

[swhisper1]

63. I agree with that, yet our pentagon has no qualms that our kids fight for oil, sacrificed in the

name of profit. Sadams sons were deliberately targeted but then we know Cheney/rumsfeld had no morals and it left a bad taste in all our mouths.


We really are not told the truths about what happens on the field. I would not be surprised if the order came down to kill everyone in the house, including children. When it comes to killing innocents, I think our military lost their morals after WW11

but then they say all is fair in love and war

[loyalsister]

57. And more

Fathers and older brothers of suspected terrorists and ordinary soldiers are always targets during any military intervention in the region.

[swhisper1]

66. this is true, guilty via bloodline

[loyalsister]

68. But they hate us for our freedom

I think it should be no shock what happens to the boys in a family when their male role models are killed and someone fills that void. Aside from the actual terrorist acts, the brainwashing of good people is tragic. Even worse, we keep handing them the material to make their arguments.

[One Black Sheep]

27. The choices are: either a master liar and manipulator, who is also a media master and knows how to

speak to the masses with persuasive, easy to understand words, and an uber elite establishment politician woman who has been shown to have very bad judgement when it comes to foreign policy, with hawk-ish tendencies, who seems to work for Wall Street and mega-corp interests, and who the majority of Americans don't find trustworthy, and who will flip on a dime in her political positions, depending on how the political winds blow...

And both candidates are basically hated by the vast majority of Americans to one degree or another. As shown in poll after poll.

America is in crisis, that is clear.

[DCBob]

44. The choice is...

1) A dedicated public servant who has fought for Democratic principals her entire adult life.

2) A racist sexist xenophobic con-man who has fought only for money and personal power his entire adult life.

[Vattel]

46. 1) A dedicated hawk who has few principles she isn't willing to sacrifice for political gain.

[Armstead]

48. yeah that welfare reform worked out so well. And she really stood up to Bush.

And after a lifetime of selfless "public service," a couple worth $200 million without having built an actual business or made a hit movie.

I agree with you on point 2

[Armstead]

47. "Smart power" is one of those idiot buzzphrases. What government doesn't claim that?

More accurate would be "short sighted, neoconservative excercise of power without concern for the consequences."

[NurseJackie]

49. How will you ever decide?

[HassleCat]

53. We have to assume Clinton would be better.

But Trump might surprise us the way Reagan did, by only going after the smallest, weakest nations where regime change involves minimal death and destruction.

[LWolf]

77. Why do we have to do that? nt

[HassleCat]

78. Have to go with the odds, that's all.

But that's not a guarantee.

[MaggieD]

55. I'm thrilled with the Dem choice in Nov

I can't wait to vote for the most qualified presidential candidate in history, who just happens to be a woman. As for FP I think Obama and Clinton have exhibited some of the shrewdest FP this country has ever seen. And I certainly shed no tears for a brutal dictator like Qadaffi.

[Vattel]

60. Then neither of us is shedding tears for Qaddafi.

But keep pushing the dishonesty of suggesting that opposition to Clinton's failures in Libya is rooted in sympathy to Qaddafi.

[MaggieD]

69. I don't agree that this administration "failed" in Libya

I think they stood by our principles of freedom and self determination, yet they did not invade and try to take over the government. Love this form of FP. It is spot on, IMO.

[Vattel]

72. Maybe you are not aware of how bad things are in Libya.

Do you think that freedom and self-determination has been achieved in Libya? It hasn't. So by your own standard, the mission was a failure.

[MaggieD]

73. I'm fully aware

I just disagree with you.

[jack_krass]

99. Surreal. so. they deserved it? had it coming?

[jack_krass]

100. "stood by our principles of freedom and self determination"

{As we blew up their country and left them to die and be ruled by religious tyrants who rose from the ashes}

Right out of the Neocon playbook, with HRC as the new standard bearer, and all the neocons, including the PNAC founder, "with her". Finally Bipartisian support for the PNAC agenda. Nothing to stand in the way now!

I wonder what will be left of this world 8 years from now.

[SamKnause]

58. I voted for Bernie.

[LWolf]

76. Not much of a choice. n/t

[seabeyond]

79. Yes!!! A strong, kickass, smart, prepared, well informed, reasoned president and the first WOMAN!!!

I am excited.

[bvf]

82. Which of those six adjectives

most accurately describes her account* of having taken sniper fire in Bosnia?

"Strong"?

"Kickass"?

"Smart"?

"Prepared"?

"Well informed"?

"Reasoned"?

Which?





*lie

[seabeyond]

83. Pettiness.

[bvf]

84. Bzzt! Sorry, that's not in the list.

Last edited Mon Jun 13, 2016, 03:33 PM - Edit history (1)

It's not even an adjective.

Try again.

[seabeyond]

88. Bzzt! No

[bvf]

91. That was to be expected

from someone whose response to the prospect of more dead American troops was, "Yada yada yada."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1251&pid=2100056

That said more about you than anyone ever cared to know.

[Buns_of_Fire]

80. This is what the party gets for not backing Vermin Supreme.

A comedian vs. a clown in the GE. What could have been more appropriate?

Oh, and free ponies.

[B Calm]

86. November I think we'll need a clothespin to vote. We deserve better.

[bvf]

92. I learned long ago

to simply and completely avoid anything that would require holding my nose.

If I can avoid stepping in a pile of dog shit, I can just as easily avoid two.

[Blue_Tires]

89. Regime change in Libya was necessary

and in the long run, that nation will be better for it...

[ljm2002]

97. That's what they said about Iraq, too...

...in fact, Hillary herself touted how the USA gave Iraqis the greatest gift that one people can give another, namely, "Freedom".

Somehow I doubt many Iraqis see it that way. Ditto for Libya.

[Nye Bevan]

98. All Hillary has to do in the debates is to list a couple of Qaddafi's worst atrocities,

and state that the world us better off without him. Trump is too ignorant and ill-informed to come up with any kind of effective counter-argument. "Gadadfi=bad" is so ingrained in our national pscyche that this issue will not hurt Hillary at all.

[Chan790]

103. Vote Apophis 2016!

Human extinction is looking better all the time.