2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHow Bernie Sanders exposed Democrats racial rift
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/06/2016-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-democrats-race-racial-divide-213948LexVegas
(6,031 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)...and affects people of all colors.
If Sanders articulated it imperfectly and failed to reach all demographics, that will not excuse a nominee or party who ignores it. We all need to engage Hillary Clinton for the change we need rather than rehashing the current primary.
KPN
(15,638 posts)Gothmog
(144,945 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Squinch
(50,922 posts)Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Clinton argued that $0.62 was too high for Haitians and knocked it down to $0.31
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)There is no racial divide among young Americans on this
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)B
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... to the degree whites did.
There are plenty of polls showing the opposite
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)And no not to the same degree as whites, but that is a different standard.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... for HRC by double digits.
Its nearly a clean racial split, Cornell West and BOTH Sanders lead managers OPENLY stating they didn't compete in the "southern states" was the height of tone deafness
TwilightZone
(25,429 posts)"For all the talk about Sanders unqualified young voter support, Clinton had a double-digit lead among the youngest black voters nationwide."
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)And no. All young Americans do not agree on race
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)The percentages shift with age demographics.
TwilightZone
(25,429 posts)"According to Reuters/Ipsos polling in February, the Vermont senator received his strongest support among black voters from those aged 18-29but only a third of that group backed him. Thats right. For all the talk about Sanders unqualified young voter support, Clinton had a double-digit lead among the youngest black voters nationwide."
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)Many primary exit polls showed a different story in states after South Carolina
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)They get reported on air during primary night and sometimes are discussed the morning after a contest, but they are not typically as well preserved and documented as standard public opinion polling. I've had trouble in the past trying to find records of exit polling break downs later of the sort that get aired by the likes of Steve Konacki at MSNBC in real time.
That's why I said it would be good to have polling data more recent than February on this question. There was a short period late in the primary season when Sanders had caught up with or even edged ahead of Hillary (all within the margin of error though) in national polling averages of voter preferences. However in February Hillary was clearly polling stronger than Bernie by that metric. It is a moving target.
TwilightZone
(25,429 posts)Besides, the states before and including South Carolina would reasonably considered as part of "nationwide".
Unless we're back to discounting the Confederacy.
icecreamfan
(115 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)Sanders has won any component of the black vote. I'd like to see those numbers corroborated and from something other than NBC exit polls. Maybe we won't have those numbers until after the primary is over.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)KPN
(15,638 posts)in most cases when it comes to politics/parties/candidates -- at least on an anecdotal level.. So it makes sense to me.
Gothmog
(144,945 posts)There are good reasons why the demographics are not working for Sanders and why many voters including some African American voters are not supporting Sanders. Demographics are important in that this explains one of the big divides between Sanders supporters and Clinton supporters. There is a vast difference in how Sanders supporters and Sanders view President Obama and how other Democrats view President Obama. I admit that I am impressed with the amount accomplished by President Obama in face of the stiff GOP opposition to every one of his proposals and I personally believe that President Obama has been a great President. It seems that this view colors who I am supporting in the primary http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-sanders-obama_us_56aa378de4b05e4e3703753a?utm_hp_ref=politics
On one side of this divide are activists and intellectuals who are ambivalent, disappointed or flat-out frustrated with what Obama has gotten done. They acknowledge what they consider modest achievements -- like helping some of the uninsured and preventing the Great Recession from becoming another Great Depression. But they are convinced that the president could have accomplished much more if only hed fought harder for his agenda and been less quick to compromise.
They dwell on the opportunities missed, like the lack of a public option in health care reform or the failure to break up the big banks. They want those things now -- and more. In Sanders, they are hearing a candidate who thinks the same way.
On the other side are partisans and thinkers who consider Obama's achievements substantial, even historic. They acknowledge that his victories were partial and his legislation flawed. This group recognizes that there are still millions of people struggling to find good jobs or pay their medical bills, and that the planet is still on a path to catastrophically high temperatures. But they see in the last seven years major advances in the liberal crusade to bolster economic security for the poor and middle class. They think the progress on climate change is real, and likely to beget more in the future.
It seems that many of the Sanders supporters hold a different view of President Obama which is also a leading reason why Sanders is not exciting African American voters. Again, it may be difficult for Sanders to appeal to African American voters when one of the premises of his campaign is that Sanders does not think that President Obama is a progressive or a good POTUS.
Again, I am not ashamed to admit that I like President Obama and think that he has accomplished a great deal which is why I do not mind Hillary Clinton promising to continue President Obama's legacy. There are valid reasons why many non-African American democrats (myself included) and many African American Democratic voters are not supporting Sanders.
I understand why Sanders supporters dislike talking about demographics but the fact remain that Sanders supporters tend to not like President Obama and that dislike affects the amount of support that Sanders is getting from certain demographic groups.
HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)this bit 'Because, as you know, Bernie already has 5 spots on the platform committee -- one less than Hillary. This is five more than any other 2nd placer has ever had.
you were sayin'?
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)Does that mean he should just keep pushing for more, and expect to be given complete control of the agenda?
HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)guess who's playing it smarter right now...
I get that HRC supporters aren't going to address this directly, I see all these posts here on DU beating around the bush on this
it's hilarious to watch, the closest I've seen an HRC supporter admit to it is this
'Because, as you know, Bernie already has 5 spots on the platform committee -- one less than Hillary. This is five more than any other 2nd placer has ever had.' http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2159856
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)and many other Democrats have a major problems which such activities, even when done by Democratic politicians. This election exposed a major problem with the most extreme form of racism in the Democratic party.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)Unless we had repealed the 22nd Amendment and had Obama run against Hillary again, any challenger's ceiling with black voters against Hillary was something like 30-40%. Hillary rebuilt and strengthened so many relationships while nobody was paying attention. Everyone I think just thought she'd run the "White Working Class voters" campaign again, I know I did.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)political process. One-size-fits-all 1960's style false consciousness socialist doctrine doesn't work from a political sense.
Bernie's supporters--if they're really in this for positive change instead of narcissism--will try to figure out why their message fell flat with blacks and Latinos, and what they need to do in order to include those communities in their movement. And that doesn't mean pandering on policy, that means actually including their perspectives and concerns from the get-go.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Corporations abuse workers of all colors.
The elites do not give a shit about color. They love divisions by social categories among the middle, working and poor classes , because it presents them from uniting against the elites to push for their common interests.
One of these days that will sink in to those who want to make everything about race.
Thank you for your attention. I am not going to indulge with any circular arguments with you.
CrowCityDem
(2,348 posts)Bernie either didn't, or couldn't, speak to those voters. When he tried to imply that sexism and racism would be taken care of through economics, he lost his chance at many of those voters.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)raging moderate
(4,292 posts)In fact, a day or so before he gave the podium at his event to the Black Lives Matter spokeswoman, he had already given a speech at an event in which he mentioned the names of Sandra Bland and others who had been murdered by police officers. Bernie has consistently spoken up for full equality for Black and Native American citizens. Hillary Clinton showed more political skill in forming alliances with key leaders in the Black communities in the management of a national campaign, and in managing how her messages get sent through the mass media. These are skills she has developed over the past 8 years, after her previous defeat. You can fault Bernie on his skills in running a national campaign and knowing which people to contact to achieve maximum cooperation. It is wrong to imply that he has not spoken about the nasty discrimination problems white people make for Black people when he has spoken about them, and for decades before he ever ran for President, on the floor of the House and the Senate.
Response to bravenak (Original post)
Post removed
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... which didn't work with those who are already economically insecure
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)The brogressives of today were the "Silent Majority" and "Reagan Democrats" of yesterday IMO.
progressoid
(49,952 posts)PufPuf23
(8,756 posts)Hillary Clinton in 2016 and POTUS Obama in 2008. POTUS Obama has even called himself a moderate Republican.
Many of the Boomer Sanders voters are the anti-war liberal Democrats of the 60s and 70s, the same folks that were fond of the policies espoused by Dennis Kucinich in 2008.
To me, the "Silent Majority" are the enemy and "Reagan Democrats" traitors.
I have been a registered and voting Democratic party member since voting for McGovern and first self identified as a Democrat age 15 in 1968 by supporting Eugene McCarthy.
Frankly, I don't think you even believe what you typed.
raging moderate
(4,292 posts)Last edited Sat Jun 11, 2016, 08:46 AM - Edit history (2)
Bernie Sanders has been speaking, working, and voting, for DECADES, to increase racial and economic justice, necessary infrastructure maintenance, progressive taxation, universal health coverage, educational opportunity, reasonable police work, proper aid for children and others in trouble, and adequate minimum wages. His enthusiastic supporters know this about him, and those of us who are old enough to have experienced the obtuse goody two-shoes "Silent Majority" and the vicious racist "Reagan Democrats" were REPULSED by these people. I was there, and I know. You can fault the Sanders operation for defects in political strategy, but our hearts are firmly on the side of anybody who is oppressed.
It seems to me that Wall Street is not horrible in its essence as a concentration of market activities. Indeed, in Communist countries, a similar managerial elite evolved behind the scenes. Markets operate around the world and seem to be part of our human heritage. The problems arise when these people are allowed to morph into a sort of religion which worships mysterious "Market Forces," when it is really fallible human beings manipulating these activities, human beings in need of regulation and restraint by our government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
In our country, we continue to have a group of wealthy elite who secretly admire the old Confederacy (which actually had sympathizers in some northern areas) based on the old feudalist systems. They cling to the delusion fostered by the movie "Gone with the Wind,' that the Antebellum South was a land of "peace and plenty." These people seek continuously to reintroduce a society based on extremely differentiated social castes, with extreme privilege at the top and extreme suffering at the bottom, with the delusion that rich people are morally superior beings who deserve obedience and worship and are best managed by over-reinforcement, while poor people are morally inferior beings who deserve scorn and are best managed by over-punishment. That is what the "Silent Majority" and the "Reagan Democrats" believed, to one extent or another. And it is what the supporters of Bernie Sanders oppose.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Corporations abuse workers of all colors.
The elites do not give a shit about color. They love divisions by social categories among the middle, working and poor classes , because it presents them from uniting against the elites to push for their common interests.
One of these days that will sink in to those who want to make everything about race.
Thank you for your attention. I am not going to indulge with any circular arguments with you.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... Armstead, the truth is those things ARE about race and NOT wanting to address them is dismissive at the least.
Dismissing what OTHER peoples TOP boogymen are is part of that dismissiveness, PoC don't put WS as a bad actor as high on the list relative to other issues.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)There are people who think that economics is most important. There are people who think race is most important. there are people who think the environment are most important......There are other issues that people think are important to them personally.
But that does not mean that it has to be ONLY about this or that. They all are part of a whole.
Race, for example, will not matter one little bit if we are all dead because of environmental degradation.
That's why a big tent in which people can work together and seperatly on shared interests. A coalition also means that not everyone agrees with each otehr on everything. But if they can at least agree to disagree because of the values they share.
It is not a zero sum game.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... page them as peripheral or "about race".
Sanders pretty much said the same thing you did in 14 and intimated they weren't that important and ran a primary race speaking on those issues like they weren't "that" important and they were.
Bottom line, stoking anger about economic insecurity to the already economically insecure was the wrong message for the DEM BASE
Armstead
(47,803 posts)We apparently live on different planets.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... strategy at all and that's what Weaver and Divine admitted to on 2 different calls.
I also live on the planet were addressing a constituencies priority concerns directly touches them more than homogeneous messages
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)dsc
(52,152 posts)often the places they differ from that are more important than anything else because society makes that happen. The fact is Sandra Bland had a job. She was economically doing OK (or at least soon to be doing OK). Treyvon Martin's family literally lived in a gated community. Both of them are dead despite that entirely because they are black. Matthew Sheppard was by any standard a wealthy young man, still dead because he is gay. Until people who aren't white straight males don't have a reasonable fear of being killed due to who they are, their race or orientation or gender are going to be what they think of. How couldn't it be?
Armstead
(47,803 posts)This demographic division that has developed among issues is ridiculous.
Yes racism is a horrible problem. Yes AA's and other POC should be able to walk down the street, be accepted fully in all strata of society, etc. Yes we all need to focus on doing what we can to change it.
But attempting to rectify that that is NOT an opposing goal to raising ALL boats economically and in terms of quality of life. Life is more holistic than that. Once-upon a time, liberals used to think that opportunity was one way to help the disadvantaged and improve life for minorities, as well as everyone else.
Not getting fucked by Wall St. pressures on corporations to do things that damage the well being of everyone is not is just an " esoteric privileged white male concern."
It affects everyone on a day to day basis Corporations that move jobs, slash salaries and otherwise abuse people. Things like making the communications infrastructure affordable, so we have information poor segment of societty. Or rebuilding and revitalizing inner cities, poor rural areas, etc.
Those are not "white male prerogatives and needs."
If someone cannot afford their healthcare and gets sick and dies, it doesn't matter if they are black, white or brown gay or straight. If a single poor mother can;'t feed her kids because she is only earning a substandard minimum wage -- -- what are we supposed to ignore her because it is not a "racial issue" but an "economic one"?
My God this way of thinking of categorizing issues into little boxes that you can only care about this issue if you a a POC or white or female or male or gay or straight.....It is not at all the approach that makes any goddamn sense. It's what we used to associate with Republican thinking. "Divide and conquer."
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)JCanete
(5,272 posts)was a very concerted effort by Brock et al to paint it that way. And happy days, it succeeded.
What Bernie's campaign was able to do was to court white disaffected voters who saw the middle class slipping away AND TO DO IT IN A WAY THAT ALIGNED THEIR INTERESTS TO THE INTERESTS OF MINORITIES AND THE POOR. That is what we needed! Why would you denegrate such a feat? We could have actually done something in this nation. We could have redirected all that fear and frustration away from struggling immigrants and people in underserved communities, and channeled it at the unfair system that is continuing to screw everybody.
Instead you cynical bastards used it to divide the Democratic voter base, and you think you're different from the GOP how?
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... I don't see Sanders running for the votes of the dem base
JCanete
(5,272 posts)to a much greater degree than anything Clinton has proposed. What by the way, has she even proposed? Bernie was able to court white men to that cause by pulling back the veil and showing them a real threat, not the manufactured scapegoating BS that republicans have been pandering for years while both parties kept the machinery going, keeping the focus on the culture war and not the economic issues that feed that war.
You want to tackle injustice? Seems to me like it would help by aligning people of different backgrounds together. You guys made that harder. You guys used Bernie's success with white voters to sell a meme that that was his constituency. So for shame, if you care, but I doubt you care, in which case ... well done.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... the world was Sanders suppposed to get his message to them?
They derided the "southern" states as "confederate" and Sanders said during the one debate they were "conservative"
Clinton proposed many policies that touched open the boogymen of Communities of color and then listened and that was AFTER clinging to Obama, promising a continuance of his legacy and competing for our votes in the "southern states"
Sanders did little of that
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)Minority voters have been watching in horror as millions of Republican voters choose Trump either because of, or despite, his open bigotry. The Sanders supporters who toy with the idea of shunning Clinton in November and allowing Trump to become president to force a revolution that Sanders couldnt deliver are playing with fire. To minority voters, Trumps candidacy feels like an existential threat. Its one thing for Republicans to either ignore or embrace his racism; the party already seems unwilling or incapable of making the kinds of adjustments it must to attract more non-white voters. Its quite another for white Democrats to not appreciate how liberal minorities feel about the possibility of a Trump presidency and what that would say about the state of racial progress in America. It would be a slap in the face, the latest sign that a kind of white privilegethrowing a temper tantrum because they dont get their way despite how much it hurts people of coloris deeply rooted within liberal, Democratic ranks as well.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/06/2016-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-democrats-race-racial-divide-213948#ixzz4B5niQc96
Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook
uponit7771
(90,304 posts).. compete in the "southern states" which was also a slap in the face
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)on DU not that long ago between the LGBTQ community and so-called "progressives" that blamed us and our "issues" (human rights) on losing elections.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Only a few years ago Hillary was openly opposed to gay marriage.
Bernie Sanders' supporters are the most pro-gay group in the US. What you write makes absolutely no sense.
Raster
(20,998 posts)...And I am as PROGRESSIVE as they come... I've been part of the DU community since 2002. I lived through that "animosity" and from my perspective, you are sloppily applying a shellacking with a very broad brush on the wrong group of people. In my opinion, it was not the Progressives on DU that gave us grief for our issues, it was the so-called Centrists, you know, the "can't we all get along" crowd.
I. VERY. CLEARLY. REMEMBER "it's just one prayer" and the other cheap shots from the "one Democrat fits all" section.
In fact, it was the PROGRESSIVE VOICES on this board that were then, and are our allies now, and sadly, many of them, along with many of our long-time LGBQT members have been forced from DU, NOT BY THE PROGRESSIVES, but by the Third Way shills and Centrists.
QC
(26,371 posts)It wasn't progressives who gave us shit--it was the Sensible Pragmatic Centrists and the personality cultists.
And it wasn't progressives who peremptorily banned about a third of the most active LGBT people in our group here because we objected to being bullied--that was Skinner.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)The vast majority of Sanders supporters are equally horrified by Trump, and the possibility of a bigoted monster like him becoming president.
They may see Sanders as the more likely to win against him. That can be debated.
But with the exception of a few hardcore Bernie or Busters, that premise you posted is a false dichotomy.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Not about Bernie supporters in general.
redStateBlueHeart
(265 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)This is something the democratic party really needs to reflect on and find a way to identify common ground so that we can all move forward .... together.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Anytime this issue is brought up, people get defensive and think accusations of racism are being made. There are understandable reasons why Clinton did so well among POC, and it's not because POC think Sanders or his supporters are racist.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Additionally, the article doesn't state that Sanders caused anything .... it simply states that this campaign (meaning the Democratic primary of 2016) EXPOSED the issue. It did expose the issue.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Thanks, bravenak.
bklyncowgirl
(7,960 posts)In short that economics would trump (pardon the expression) race. Now I realize that things are much more complicated. I think that Sanders and most of his supporters believed that too and were stunned when a long time liberal with sterling civil right credentials was shunned by most people of color.
What this article does not touch on, however, is the essential abandonment of the working class--and not just the white working class-- by the Democrats in favor of a presenting itself as a coalition of ethnic, racial and other identity groups, a focus on social issues which plays right into the hands of the very rich--and nets them more campaign contributions from the donor class.
The truth is that Democrats have to find ways to appeal to all groups. Call it white privilege if you will but having grown up in New York City I have always hated ethnic politics. It's why the most liberal city in the country is so often run by Republicans. Democrats believe that Demography is Destiny. I don't think you can write off large sections of the population and expect to govern the country.
CrowCityDem
(2,348 posts)How many stories do we hear about well-off minorities who still get profiled, mistreated, and harassed for no other reason than their race or gender? Economics are important, but racism isn't about money, and putting people on a level playing field economically won't remove that kind of prejudice.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)Regardless of race you can't tell folks what their priorities or what they should be. It only upsets them. That should be axiomatic.
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)"Economics do not always trump race"
...
In other words: some people vote against their own economic interest. What do we usually say about that on DU?
Armstead
(47,803 posts)CrowCityDem
(2,348 posts)If you are in a group subject to prejudice and discrimination, gee, maybe you'd want to focus on ending that. Putting more dollars in someone's pocket will not stop bigots from being bigots.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)uponit7771
(90,304 posts)bklyncowgirl
(7,960 posts)I agree that Sanders and his supporters, myself included, should have done more listening and less lecturing but listening to some of you, a person who is not a member of a persecuted minority group has no place in the Democratic Party. That's writing off s hell of a lot of people.
CrowCityDem
(2,348 posts)bklyncowgirl
(7,960 posts)That is what promoting the interests of working people is about. Unfortunately the Democratic Party led by the Clintons has moved away from this. I agree with you that it must be coupled with a strong commitment to social and racial justice. I don't know of any Sanders supporter who would disagree with this
CrowCityDem
(2,348 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)They are happy for the middle and lower classes to be separating themselves into ethnic enclaves. The GOP loves it too.
It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time -- fight for both racial and overall economic justice, as ultimately they are part of a whole.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)I believe what Black Lives Matters Ashley Williams had to say in her letter to Hillary Clinton:
The 1994 Crime Bill that she so vigorously defended not only expanded incarceration, but stripped funding for college education from prisoners. The Clinton legacy allowed for policies that prevented anyone convicted of a felony drug offense from receiving food stamps or income assistance. Clinton-led welfare reform fundamentally ripped apart the social safety net.
Make no mistake, Hillary Clinton's efforts to push these policies resulted in the continued destruction of Black communities and the swift growth of our mass incarceration crisis.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"I believe what Black Lives Matters Ashley Williams had to say..."
We often believe only that which validates our bias, and conveniently discount all else, often by implying the irrelevancy of a favorite source.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)to the black person who agrees with you.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Do you disagree with what she says?
Between Bill and Hillary, they didn't do the AA community any favors by supporting The 1994 Crime Bill which not only expanded incarceration, but stripped funding for college education from prisoners.
"The Clinton legacy allowed for policies that prevented anyone convicted of a felony drug offense from receiving food stamps or income assistance. Clinton-led welfare reform fundamentally ripped apart the social safety net."
bravenak
(34,648 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)AA community. Well it's more profits for her Prisons For Profits industry who in turn will show her their gratitude.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He also wanted to raise prison sentences for cocaine to the rate of crack sentenses, which is a very tough on drugs policy. Hillary never proposed THAT!
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)And not just the good parts. All of it.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)The effect was the same as if he had supported the entire thing. I notice how people give him a free pass on voting for it, but blame her for the entirety of it.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Clinton could have line-item vetoed the bad parts if he wanted, which Sanders had no choice to do. Clinton v. City of New York wasn't decided by SCOTUS until 1998 so he still had that power with the crime bill. Evidently he supported the mass incarceration components, while Sanders did not.
So whereas Sanders had to make a calculation that the Violence Against Women Act was worth passing the horrid other parts, Clinton did not have to make that choice. Right??
One thing I have not seen you ever address is this: What would you have said about Sanders if the Crime Bill didn't pass and he opposed it for the mass incarceration provisions. Would he have been opposed to the Violence against women act?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)It's okay, I know it means you've got nothing.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Bernie voted for it and the credit of some parts are given in full to him while the blame for bad parts are given in full to her. Nothing you have said disabuses me of this notion that there is a complete double standard of blame and credit and he always gets the benefit of doubt whereas she never does. If anything her intentions are falsified to make her seem evil.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Bernie had no choice but to take an up or down vote on the whole thing.
My 'disingenuous' post was explaining why it wasn't a double standard.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Anyone around and aware at the time know damn well what was going on then and no. They could not just pick and choose, republicans controlled congress and could pass anything they wanted.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Can't veto everything and still expect to ever get concessions on the budget or other policy points. Compromise is the only way to roll. And FYI? The black community was in favor of most of those policies we hate in hindsight. Full stop. We, the black comminity PRESSURED the Clintons to create that crime bill. He OWED us his presidency. He did work with us in crafiting it. He could not tell us no and expect a second term. We were tired of winos and crackheads and rapers and drug dealers and home invasion robberies and dead bodies on the corner and gangbangers raping our daughters on the way to school and our familygetting addicted to crack and dropping off addicted babies to our doorsteps, etc.. Those who did not live that life can look down upon us from their ivory towers and point fingers. Those dead bodies were not on your corners. Those crackheads were not stealing your grandmas SS check. Those crying addicted babies not in your house. You do realize that we finally got rehabs from these deals we made with Bill? That the crime went down? That LA stopped being the muder capital? Fewer gangs? Fewer innocent bystanders killed in the fross fire? More drug education?
I went to more funerals than I can count in my life. Things are better now. I watched fifteen year old boys being planted in the dirt. Conforted friend in sixth grade who had been raped by superpredators. You all know nothing about that life but try to stand in judgement on what we really needed. That crime bill did get killers and rapers and robbers and vilent people out of our neighborhoods. We don't LIKE CRIME!!! We are the ones who suffer the consequences of allowing people who are violent, of drug cartels, gangs and addicts, to run wild and commit crimes AGAINST US. Who do you think they were robbing? Killing? Selling crack to? US, NOT YOU.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)I'll be sending this to some folks.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I know people will be mad, but it will happen. I just could not believe it as it was happening. Swire that it would change. No such luck.
Response to bravenak (Original post)
Post removed
Beowulf
(761 posts)First, the Sanders campaign badly mishandled outreach to PoC groups. Not because they didn't care, but because they misread the landscape. They also had to deal with the decades-long head start Clinton had in those communities. It's not realistic to expect the campaign to catch up in 10 months.
There's been little discussion on how Third Way Democrats, led by the Clintons have strategically used identity politics to take the focus off of economic issues that cross demographic borders focusing instead on issues that assuage fear. Please note that I'm not saying there's nothing to fear about Trump. There's plenty. But what gets lost if the discussion gets reduced to that. Yes, I'm white, but my granddaughters are biracial. Trump's bigotry and potential consequences of that bigotry matter personally.
There's been little discussion on how the Clintons have used their foundation to court PoC leaders through awards, recognitions, and grants.
There's been little discussion on how David Brock and the various super pacs and media organs he controls manipulated the narratives around the candidates and race.
There's much more to be laid in the laps of both campaigns that would need to be addressed honestly if we're going to find some common ground.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We, black americans, are still trying to obtain the same right to exist that you take for granted. The fact that one campaign minimized out need for equality as 'identity politics' let us know they were not listening and that we were not interested in a bland one size fits all revolution. The nation aint getting no whiter, ever. We must deal with race or we have no peaceful future. Us black americans are not going to shut up about issues that affect us most and allow white liberals to decide what WE should be interested in, ever. Time to start listening and realize that it was not brock or the clinton foundation that repelled us. It was his campaign and the way it was run as a one size fits all generic revolution, minus black folks of course because we do not fit into the narrative.
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)THERE ARE WAYS TO MAKE A SOCIALIST-ESQUE CAMPAIGN REACH BLACK PEOPLE
POC LIKE SOCIALISM
POC LIKE SOCIALISM MORE THAN WHITE PEOPLE
POC LIKE PROGRESSIVE IDEAS
POC WANT SYSTEMIC CHANGE
I AM USING ALL CAPS FOR EMPHASIS BECAUSE IT NEEDS TO BE SHOUTED
There are multitudes, MULTITUDES of ways that a leftist insurgent campaign can appeal to POC, but Bernie never even began to explore those ways because he doesn't have the systematic understanding of his own beliefs to PERMIT that exploration. You can run an economic issues campaign and still win black people but you HAVE to connect that campaign to black oppression. Talk about redlining, gentrification, K-12 disparities, immigration and talk about it over and over and over again in different and diverse ways. You can't just be the EQUAL of Hillary on these issues, you have to be BETTER. I KNOW Bernie addressed these issues at times but it wasn't his focus.
He COULD have done all those things and, along with coming down in a meaningful way on the asshole privileged supporters off and online, KEPT my vote. But he didn't.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Never happened. I think his education on race ended with his college education. He should have continued his work with the black community if he ever wanted a shot at a revolution.
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)And that Hillary would run something like 2008. Oh man how things change.
Beowulf
(761 posts)appalachiablue
(41,105 posts)for crimes. How would they vote if free and allowed, and their families.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He wanted to raise the sentences for cocaine sale UP to the same level as crack sales. Not lower them. I have no idea what history book you have at home. Try google to fact check me.
appalachiablue
(41,105 posts)Check your processes and motives, try google. People are very aware of who voted for the 1990s Crime Bill and its flaws and dangers.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And the fact that he has taken very 'tough on crime' approaches to governance? Anybody can say they have a degree in anything on the web.
appalachiablue
(41,105 posts)books I have at home' and then claim I'm lying about my university degrees. In your well known efforts to assume and offend you might fare better with others. But I doubt it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Sure didnt seem like you knew it since you came flying in accusing folks of doing the same thing Bernie voted for. Kinda seems pointless to do if you did know it already. I'll just assume you did not and move on.
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)so somethings amiss here
uponit7771
(90,304 posts).... saying Sanders didn't speak to PoC priorities was.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)were we told -"not good enough Bernie" was he supposed to triangulate and only want improvement for some but not others, is that Clinton's message?
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... and having an overly homogenized message was dismissive to those priorities
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)is that a variant of wanting just-us?
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)still sounds rather just-us-y to me
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... and I don't know what you mean by "just-us" stuff
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)Trump supporters are racist. Bernie supporters tend to be racially tone-deaf. There's a big difference, and the biggest difference is that since you're on the left, we expect more of you.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... the issues of PoC were placed on the back burner
Autumn
(44,986 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)nt
Autumn
(44,986 posts)skin on the democratic party and many of it's members and exposed the moldy skeleton underneath.
QC
(26,371 posts)SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Gothmog
(144,945 posts)This is a great article that does a good job of discussing why the Sanders so-called revolution failed. I am strong supporter of President Obama and so I found the Sanders' revolution to be unrealistic and unappealing. I never felt the Bern even though I used to like Sanders and some of his positions.
I was never convinced that the Sanders revolution made any sense and I found myself agreeing with the members of the AA group even though I am old white Jewish male.
Great article. Thanks for posting
Raastan
(266 posts)In most cases, one could also exchange the word "minorities" with "gender"...
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)killbotfactory
(13,566 posts)anyone who supports such nonsense is clearly trying to bring back the white male patriarchy.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... assasinations didn't work on that end.
The delineating factor was Clinton developed a relationship, fought for our votes and didn't have a canned message to our priorities.
and it showed in the support she got
killbotfactory
(13,566 posts)The reason Bernie lost is because he his supporters hate women and minorities!
SheenaR
(2,052 posts)After the first two contests, he had momentum. Had he won Nevada he goes into the South with a huge wave of press, support, etc.
He poured a ton into SC early but the Nevada loss blunted any and all momentum.
A decision had to be made. Pour all the remaining $ into the South or head elsewhere and try to win the nomination the smartest and most efficient way possible.
Easy in hindsight to say he ignored an area and various groups of people. The campaign tried to win, plain and simple. And the numbers were there had they gotten it done everywhere else.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)SheenaR
(2,052 posts)Yes. They did not compete. They read the tea leaves and saw a potential waste of their whole campaign coffer.
They aimed for Ohio, NY, MI, CA, IL, PA, NJ, etc.
They failed there too.
But they didn't fail to compete from the start. It was a necessity.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... the people to win their votes
Also, Sanders campaign wasn't worried about wasting resources when it came to the non "southern states" and even asking for contributions when he was more than a long shot win
So wasting resources doesn't seem like a concern to them
no... he ignored the "southern states" were a lot of black dems lived and lost almost by that amount of votes.
That's his fault
SheenaR
(2,052 posts)in late 2015, early 2016.
This wasn't supposed to be a campaign he won. He then found out millions of people wanted something besides the pre-selected candidate.
It IS his fault for not having resources there. It is even more remarkable that he got 12 million votes while largely campaigning on an as needed basis. Take my state or RI. They sent 4 young kids and opened an office in Providence. That was the entire organization. And we won. All the small donations do not allow for a 50 state push.
He chose the states he thought he would have the best shot in once the first few contests were over. Plain and simple. I wish like most that wasn't the case, but it doesn't make it any less true.
aikoaiko
(34,163 posts)Politico has generally been less favorable to Bernie than HRC this primary, but this article highlights important issues that the next set of liberal-progressives will have to negotiate.
I've been thinking about writing an OP about this topic because this primary has broken through some of my stubbornness and ineptitude on some racial issues when I kept re-examining why Bernie was not resonating with POC, especially Black Americans, but it seemed so obvious to POC.
The disproportionate levels of police brutality laid upon Black Americans is just the tip of the iceberg, but I think the issue of disproportionate disadvantages and advantages across many life areas has become the focus of many in the POC community. In some cases, like police brutality, it is a matter of life and death. In other areas, like employment, education, and banking, it is a matter of generational hardship that impacts POC across every level of SES - even President Obama.
Im still working it out in my head and trying to learn from others who seem to have a better grasp of the issues.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I've learned a lot reading the AA group here. I highly recommend it. Great people and a lot of excellent discussion.
One thing I've noticed among bernie or bust type posters is an absolute unwillingness to even entertain the notion that Hillary Clinton has many liberal positions with respect to taxes, the economy, prison reform and other issues. And, from reading here over the past year, a lot of racial tone deafness and yes, white privilege. Some even ridicule Clinton for 'evolving' slowly on some issues. But to me, it's much better to evolve in a good way than to evolve poorly. I think evolving well is a very good thing.
It's about way more than what one posts on a message board or what one says or wishes for. It's about what you do and what you can accomplish in a clear manner, with the support of many in Congress and endorsements of powerful people who can actually help affect positive change.
I don't attribute this attitude to most Bernie supporters. The ones in person are voting for Clinton in November. The November vote is of critical importance.
I have no time for those who claim here that they won't vote for the democratic nominee in November. Let them leave and go vote green or democratic socialist or whatever they want. They just seem so pedantic, preaching things that are obvious and repeating themselves ad infinitum.
Nor did I have much time for those who trashed President Obama here for the past seven years. To me, they don't seem much different from those on the right who wish to divide us. They fail to acknowledge how hard the President has worked against a republican brick wall in Congress.
When we don't keep our rather bizarre coalition of leftists, liberals and more mainstream democrats together, we lose. It's critical that we win every election, from the presidency on down to local elections. Lives depend on it. As you've stated so eloquently, it hits much closer to home if that life belongs to yourself or your loved ones.
Loyalty is also very important. The Clinton's have built their coalition over a very long period of time. It's amazing how well Bernie did, but to me it's not surprising that he fell short of attracting the entire Obama coalition. Particularly since a vocal chunk of Bernie's coalition was publicly hostile toward President Obama (see, Cornell West and some prolific posters here).
Hope you enjoy a great weekend.
Fresh_Start
(11,330 posts)for those who aren't already still in a revolution...which they have been fighting for over 100 years with painfully slow progress.
Its also a much more comfortable concept when its absent personal sacrifice.
Unintentionally and unconsciously, white privilege allows some to embrace the revolution.
But people with the least advantages in our society, who we might expect to be the eager acolytes are not so inclined: and cannot afford to be seduced.
We applaud the idea of more advantages for some (e.g. free college) while failing to understand that many minority students don't even have the tools necessary for good elementary education, safe non-toxic buildings, textbooks, experienced high quality teachers.
Even something like higher minimum wage will likely backfire in lower employment rates for the groups which already have the highest unemployment rates.
The thing which I think is the most important to society is that thing that is almost completely absent from the from democrats, republicans, socialists, liberals for most of my life. ""ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
It will take a hell of a lot more than voting to fix this country: it will take sacrifice. That sacrifice cannot be limited to the 1%, it has to be inclusive of the 80%. I don't think you should be asked to sacrifice for the 1%,5%,10%...but you should be willing to sacrifice for the 99th percent.
Carter told us to turn down our thermostats and wear a sweater. Sanders and Clinton both want more clean energy sources and better technology: but those solutions are slow solutions. Make a sacrifice if you want lower pollution and to slow down global warming. Stop being an energy hog. And thinking 'someone else' is a worse energy hog is a nice deflection which does nothing to address the problem.
To get rid of fracking, we need to reduce the energy consumption of the country by approximately 20%.
Any technology change will take decades to have an impact: reducing your energy footprint can begin in the next day.
What are you willing to do starting right now to decrease the amount of energy we use?
Arazi
(6,829 posts)The environment is going to deteriorate fast with either Hillary Clinton or a Republican now
We've sealed the deal on our fate and articles like this will soon be quaint. I like your call for personal action though. Good point
Fresh_Start
(11,330 posts)but its not a viable choice.
We need two dedicated efforts from the next administration:
fix the deficiencies in the federal elections (we can't force a fix in state and local): set a uniform standard for who can vote to president and congress: don't allow local states to create barriers to voting which disenfranchise our citizens:
in that area: fix gerrymandering
'do a space race' type effort for climate change.
everything else should be subordinate to those two goals.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Climate change fucks us all equally. Who's serious? Bernie and Jill Stein. The rest are shit heads entirely unconcerned @ the environment.
We're shit out of time.
People have decided though. Fuck the planet. I find that offensive and willfully destructive, selfish.
I don't know any rich people to run to, help me, when the shit hits the fan. We all can't wait for election reform.
The time is now
floriduck
(2,262 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Did you actually read the whole article? If so, what parts do you consider to be bullshit?
BumRushDaShow
(128,527 posts)Particularly this part -
Why? Because many white Democratic voters missed the sentiment shared among black Obama voters in 2008 that, once again, the first black was being handed a seemingly impossible tasktwo ground wars, a collapsing economy, a record deficitand if he wasnt able to perform a miracle, it would not only be his failure, but that of black people in general. To downplay what he has been able to achieve despite the obstacles, which also included an unprecedented level of obstruction from the GOP, confirms a fear shared by many people of colorDemocratic or otherwisethat no matter what they achieve, it will never be enough. Sanders and Susan Sarandon may sincerely believe things are so awful only a revolution can heal the countrys ills. But their overwrought rhetoric, and no more than lukewarm support of Obamas accomplishments, taps into that deeply-held frustration among minorities.
Thats why, despite what looks like intractable problems to white Democrats, minority voters are more optimistic about the future than their white counterparts. That Obama was able to become president and get stuff done is an enormous source of not only pride, but hope. The Kaiser Family Foundation found that more than half of young black and Latinos believe their lives will be better than their parents, compared with less than a third of young white people. On many measures, black people have seen much worse daysthe black unemployment rate neared 17 percent at the height of the Great Recession and is less than half that noweven as they continue fighting decades-long struggles. Things arent perfect, but the progress that has occurred during the Obama era isnt something they want ignored or downplayed. Given that reality, why would they believe in the need for a revolution?
<...>
The entire article had me nodding and amen-ing! What was written in this article is probably perplexing to some, inconceivable to others, and probably a downright affront to the worldviews of many here on DU.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I know many people here heard this stuff repeated. Constantly. Maybe next time they will listen.
BumRushDaShow
(128,527 posts)What he wrote has been written in essays and as critiques to posts here on DU time after time after time, in some cases, almost verbatim. And some here "get it" and accept it as a valid viewpoint by many of us, while others dismiss it right off the bat and start spouting knee-jerk talking points and accusing people of having "Stockholm syndrome" and other such nonsense.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's like it came right out of my head
BumRushDaShow
(128,527 posts)qdouble
(891 posts)Not caring about a bigot getting elected just because you don't get the perfect candidate is the definition of white privilege. I've even seen some supposed Sander's supporters on JPR openly suggest that they want to help Trump get elected if Bernie doesn't win. I'm sure those types have absolutely no problem with millions of muslims and hispanics getting openly discriminated against by the next president because it doesn't effect them personally.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)support BLM and inferred that persons killed by the police are your fellow Hillary supporters?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I watched folks tear down blm for interrupting their candidate. I just watched somebody start it back up within the last few days. Not a hillary supporter.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)coyote
(1,561 posts)He also exposed your anti-Semitic side. Bernie has been very therapeutic to you.
hidden in 1..2..
Number23
(24,544 posts)Bernie Sanders did not win ANY of the black vote -- by gender, economic status, age, education -- ANYWHERE.
Even in states so white that you can count the number of minorities on two hands, they still rejected him.
Absolutely.
But some of this is crap too.
Ummm... no.
But this bit sums everything up better than anything I've seen all day:
Abso-fucking-lutely. And white Democrats can continue to scream about "Southern" voters and how black people are voting against their interests, are low information voters with "slave mentalities" or they can realize how privileged, tone deaf, ignorant and yes RACIST they sound, cut that shit out and help US keep Tump out of the White House.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)on everything is the ultimate expression of privilege. That's exactly how I feel.
It always reminds me of the little kid screaming 'I want my Maypo!' or as it was later used effectively 'I want my MTV!'
Many of us don't have time for that nonsense. Not when there are way more important issues we value highly, like stopping police from murdering unarmed brothers and sisters.
Good to see you on this thread. Hope you enjoy a great weekend.
Number23
(24,544 posts)I was just having a chat with a Sanders supporter yesterday who came racing into a thread discussing Sanders' poor performance in minority communities who was basically begging everyone to "stop talking about this."
The reason no one is going to stop talking about this is because a) who the hell is anyone to DEMAND that people not talk about things that interest them?? and b) this is an important issue. This primary DID expose a huge racial rift among Democrats and only the blind or stupid would choose to not discuss it.
I'm having a good weekend so far! Hope you are too!!
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Funny how those who rush into every discussion of race to try and shut it down rarely have anything positive to contribute.
There ain't no going back. Back in the day it was all hush-hush. That repression was unhealthy.
We're more comfortable talking about it than we were a few years ago. We have a long way to go though, as witnessed by those who still try to repress it and by some of the more ... ummm ... bizarre posts that personally attack people for even discussing it. Thank goodness we aren't drinking that haterade.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)And the earlier Mikulski Commission (proportional voting and Affirmative Action as part of the platform and nomination process). Hart and Jackson were royally screwed in 1984. Between them they had significantly more votes than Mondale but not even enough delegates to even attempt to contest the convention (had there been proportional delegates Hart would've been the Presidential nominee and Jackson would've been his VP because together their delegates would've been more than Mondale, and Mondale would've simply lost; and no one would've contested that because between them they had one and a half times more votes than Mondale).
If we had the same system we have now back then Hart probably would've been a two timer, Jackson would've been the first black President, and who knows what would've happened. It's pretty fascinating when you think about it.
Interestingly, I looked up Hart in the news today and he commented on this: https://www.yahoo.com/katiecouric/gary-hart-on-the-parallels-between-his-84-campaign-and-the-2016-race-143612660.html
Must watch video. And I'm glad Hart is still around to provide his insights.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I found a lot of what's discussed in the article to be true, from my own personal personal perspective. Thanks bravenak.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)Making Affirmative Action part of the nomination process automatically means that white-only nominations are infeasible.
This is an indictment on Weaver and Devine in that they completely ignored the core of the party (minorities, the disadvantaged) and banked on a demographic that is unreliable (the youth, unfortunately, which I am on the edge of 'being' kinda sorta, Gen X).
Cha
(296,881 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Haiti and Honduras. Most Hillary supporters simply don't give a flying f about those black and brown people. Oh...and she and have "apologized" for their role in criminalizing black and brown youth, and mass incarceration...the gift that keeps on giving. Nothing is more indicative of racial harmony, DLC-style, than the 30% of black males caught up in the criminal justice system. This false narriative you keep pushing is a great cover for the Clintons. One could almost think that's been its purpose. Another BIG LIE masking a very sad reality that was intentionally created.
LAS14
(13,769 posts)Response to bravenak (Original post)
Post removed
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Mr. Bailey's article doesn't even remotely suggest what you're stating it does.
Number23
(24,544 posts)What in the EVER LOVING hell??!
gollygee
(22,336 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)re-read that post, and am lmao.