2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumENOUGH! MY *PATRIOTISM* TRUMPS PARTY LOYALTY!!!
This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by LostOne4Ever (a host of the 2016 Postmortem forum).
And yes, I am using ALL CAPS in that subject line, because I have SERIOUSLY had ENOUGH of the snide obnoxious comments coming from certain members of this board who don't want to have any SUBSTANTIVE discussions about HILLARY CLINTON'S JUDGMENT!!!
I am currently a Bernie supporter, but for three decades I have voted for Democratic presidential candidates. I am not stupid. I know Trump is a disaster-waiting-to-happen...
And Hillary Clinton's EPIC BAD DECISION MAKING scares me as much as Donald Trump!!!
She supported the Iraq War, and didn't hold the REPUBLICAN administration accountable for LYING us into it (despite that duty as "loyal opposition in a two party system" . She was on the wrong side of marriage equality. The policies she advocated and implemented while Secretary of State created more chaos and death world wide than doing nothing, and that doesn't include planetary environmental concerns created with her promoting "fracking" as a global export.
But it is the "email and private server" situation that has me saying ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY NO!!! because it demonstrates the CORROSIVE EFFECT her personal beliefs and management style would have on the government transparency necessary for democracy in this country:
Per the spin, Hillary Clinton valued her PRIVACY and (maybe?) CONVENIENCE more than not only POSSIBLE dangers to NATIONAL SECURITY, but also FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT LAWS.
PRIVACY and CONVENIENCE: Those are not the actions of a person I am willing to make "Commander In Chief" of people who have agreed to put their LIVES IN DANGER in service to this country.
IGNORING RULES and COMPLIANCE WITH LAWS: Those are not the actions of a person I am willing to put in charge of the NSA, CIA, FBI and DOJ, where ETHICS AND INTEGRITY are absolute requirements.
THREATENING and IGNORING THOSE WHO SPEAK "TRUTH TO POWER": Those are not the actions of a person I am willing to put in charge of ANYBODY. When subject matter experts are ignored or people FEAR coming forward as whistleblowers or when protections like "Inspector General" positions are intentionally left vacant or when people who catch government officials in wrongdoing either end up in jail or have to flee the country, I want those issues FIXED, and I don't mean by silencing the reports - I mean FIXED so that the next people in line don't decide not to report problems.
LYING: Life is too short to spend time parsing the words of someone whose words can't be trusted. The willingness to sacrifice the loyalty of supporters because of a fear of TRANSPARENCY while avoiding PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and obfuscating on issues is completely unacceptable. Every Hillary supporter on this board who believed her when she said she was "following the rules" and "everybody else had private servers" is owed an apology from her because believing her lies made them look like idiots.
SERVICE TO OTHERS: This is a Representative Democracy. The people we elect are there in service to others. The "Federal Records Act" and "FOIA" are intended to provide institutional knowledge and historical information. There is no question Hillary Clinton, for unknown personal reasons, was working to make sure the records she and her staff created were not part of that public record. That is a Red Flag they are doing something wrong. Obviously, one needs to double check "ignorance and stupidity" are not involved, but after that, "judgment, ethics and behavior" follow, and FAIL in those categories is written all over this episode.
The State Department is NOT a "PRIVATE BUSINESS" - it is a government department intended to benefit the entire country, and "we the people" are the owners. Every citizen in this country has a right to know what is going on there both currently and historically, with obvious caveats for diplomacy and national security temporarily in place. The same concerns apply to the office of President. Knowledge is Power, and Power in this country belongs to the People.
I am a Democrat, but I am a PATRIOTIC AMERICAN FIRST. I will ALWAYS put the NEEDS of my country over the WANTS of my party, and if "my party" wants me to do anything differently, I will bolt out of the room so fast, it will make your head spin, and then I will take any treasonous bastard who tries to enable such corruption of Democratic principles down as well.
We are currently in "Primary Season" and those of us raising these LEGITIMATE CONCERNS about whether or not ANY CANDIDATE should be allowed the HONOR AND PRIVILEGE of leading this country are doing our PATRIOTIC DUTY AS CITIZENS. It is my privilege to vote, my responsibility to be informed, and my duty to use good judgment.
Hillary or Bernie or Trump or Other: I am not going to support a candidate for President who can't be trusted to safeguard and protect the lives, rights and freedoms of our citizens, our country, and the principles of our democracy.
I am a Democrat. That is what Democrats DO.
And anybody who says differently can go perform inappropriate anatomical acts on themselves.
tonyt53
(5,737 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,873 posts)You beat me to it.
I have had this person on Ignore for a long time, but that doesn't stop the frequent (as in, constant) long-winded diatribes from showing up.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)I would prefer NO wars, thank you very much.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Memorial Day being yesterday was a definite reminder of the value our veterans have offered.
Even the POSSIBILITY of endangering national security should have triggered better behavior.
She has shamed us all.
J_J_
(1,213 posts)Thank you for writing this.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)CorkySt.Clair
(1,507 posts)Only a dolt wouldn't be able to see the difference.
leeroysphitz
(10,462 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)And agreed!
Dem2
(8,168 posts)These rant posts are leaning over the edge of what's reasonable discourse and into some sort of rage syndrome.
barrow-wight
(744 posts)KPN
(15,649 posts)MineralMan
(146,329 posts)One's political party or political affiliations have next to nothing to do with patriotism. Conflating the two things is simply wrong.
I'm sorry to see you equating patriotism with support for a particular candidate. Please think more about that.
alfie
(522 posts)You are wrong to think Ida is talking about her support of a particular candidate. She is talking about why she is NOT supporting two particular candidates.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I do not believe Bernie Sanders is the only honest, trustworthy Democrat in the country, but he is the only one currently running for President.
Thank you for clarifying the point for MineralMan.
alfie
(522 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,833 posts)who you sincerely believe could cause damage to your country. Partisanship is slamming a candidate you don't like for essentially petty reasons - say, because they visited the Pope or appeared to have groped a model's butt. Patriotism is advocating for a candidate you genuinely believe will benefit your country while advocating against one who you believe will harm it. There is no conflation.
KPN
(15,649 posts)tokenlib
(4,186 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Democrats speak their mind -- and let others speak theirs.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Joob
(1,065 posts)And I will fight corporations putting their money in our politics through the election, past the election, until it is no longer a threat.
K & R
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)I didn't come in to fight for the toolbag corporations that run this country. For anyone who doesn't like it? Fuck'em.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Faux pas
(14,690 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)onecaliberal
(32,888 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Arazi
(6,829 posts)Agree with you 100%
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)I can't stand to even look at your NARRATIVE, it looks like one the those extremist nut case religious or propaganda pamphlets where EVERYTHING IS SO IMPORTANT that 50% of the narrative needs to have attention bestowed upon it.
bvf
(6,604 posts)Criticize the typography, reinforce the OP's point.
Since you want to go there, though, "italics" wasn't a proper noun, last time I checked.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)As I'd already mentioned, I couldn't read the post.
...as if BSers always read every post and post on message? Don't make me laugh!!
bvf
(6,604 posts)then why are you even in the thread?
I have a guess, and it's a beaut.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)I'm wondering if you are so persistent with the typo Nazis that have Bernie avatars?
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)barrow-wight
(744 posts)Totally THIS!!!!!!!!!!
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)voting for the candidate that you prefer.
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)I encourage everyone to read what Robert Jensen wrote about the concept of "patriotism" in his book Citizens of the Empire. That chapter used to be available online, but it no longer is unfortunately. For now, you can read this: http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/12/goodbye-to-patriotism/.
As for Sanders and the notion that he's soooo much better than Clinton when it comes to foreign policy:
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-sanders-troubling-history-supporting-us-military-violence-abroad
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/04/27/kill-a27.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/02/16/blood-traces-bernies-iraq-war-hypocrisy/
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I will click through them later.
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Derp...
amborin
(16,631 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)bvf
(6,604 posts)They've been doing that for a while now. It would be funny to see, except that American lives hang in the balance. Nothing to laugh about there at all.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Not everyone is going to conflate patrotism with a particular party's or candidate's platform.
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)But god dammit Democrats, true blue Democrats used to despise pols who do the very things you highlighted in your post
What the everloving hell happened to the Democratic party? !
If this were a Republican, we would be united against him or her.
Just wow at how things change!
vintx
(1,748 posts)Like you said, this stuff wasn't up for discussion before. Anyone defending it would be ridden off the site and branded a freeper.
Mbrow
(1,090 posts)So many take offense that you are against their candidate that they never look at why you are. I've always said HRC would be so much better then tRump, But that Bernie is better then HRC because.... and they never look any further then the because. Any possible scandal aside, just the things she has spoken for and done, well you know this already. Thanks for the post.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)That's all there is to it.
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)Tarc
(10,476 posts)Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)vintx
(1,748 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Lodestar
(2,388 posts)with Bernie.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)To us, I mean.
A candidate who claims to want to serve as president can't bother to follow rules? Most people don't run for office if they have baggage that might compromise their potential to win. Part of the idea being, they have a responsibility to maximize their chances of winning so that they can advocate for the people they claim to care about.
I have been hearing that Hillary will fight for me. Yet, she went out of her way to acquire baggage that compromises her opportunityability to do so.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)were making an international laughingstock of US cyber-security? Oh that's right, none, because they were heroes.
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)At least they(Manning and Snowden) did something with the knowledge that we have committed atrocities against other nations, and have been spying on ourselves, rather than futz around for biography fodder or try to evade FOIA.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)But my point is that national security doesn't mean zip when libertarian culture heroes are trashing it. It's only when someone the OP doesn't like commits some minor infraction that the "patriotism" reflex kicks in.
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)Because it will be Hillary or Trump. And there is no way of escaping your responsibility in this matter. Vote for one or the other, and you might help the person you vote for win. Refuse to vote, write in Bernie, or vote third party, and you've STILL helped to choose between Hillary and Trump. There are no sidelines. It's an illusion. There is just responsibility to help elect soemone who isn't batshit crazy. Your call.
themaguffin
(3,826 posts)try to change months before an election.... or think that Bernie can wave a magic wand.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Thank you! for saying it so well! That is exactly it.
Everything in your post is all deal-breakingly bad, but endrunning and voiding the FOIA, intentionally, is a level of scorn for the law, especially one which exists to protect democracy itself, that is simply jaw-dropping in its arrogance.
And then to have the NERVE to run for President after doing all of that? Oh, HELL no! That, in itself, seals that case shut.
merbex
(3,123 posts)You eloquently expressed my feelings and attitude to a T.
Thank you
barrow-wight
(744 posts)Hillary got more votes and your candidate lost. It's just that simple. You can choose to obsess over her minor differences with Bernie but that will just help Trump win. And if you think she would turn this country in the same direction, well, I don't know what to say to you because you sound too intelligent not to know that that Trump will be far worse an so many issues.
themaguffin
(3,826 posts)Bernie and Hillary have a lot more in common and well have an interest in supporting progressive policy and stopping
regressive policy and Trump... and the GOP in general.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)who can no longer support the DNC or any candidates who would push the party away from FDR's vision for the party.
randome
(34,845 posts)You should get the names and addresses of the 3 million voters who have put Clinton in the lead and then direct your anger there. Because you know something? We had nothing to do with that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,198 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)dana_b
(11,546 posts)Many of us have said similar things and been derided, had posts hidden, threatened to be banned. But so what? It's a forum and we should be able to speak the truth. When the truth is that the party and some candidates are not living up to the what we thought the party stood for, then we have to speak up.
This forum is just the start. Out on the street and in the campaigns is where the real work happens and there are still people who try to "ban" us there, in the real world.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,290 posts)[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=crimson]It is the consensus of the Hosting forum at this time to LOCK this thread as Disruptive meta.[/font]
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