The corruption is so widespread, I have come to doubt the legitimacy of Hillary's delegate lead.

[reformist2]

Why? Simply too many shenanigans in too many states. I know I'm not the only one who has arrived at this opinion.

Many of us will need quite an act of good faith on the part of the DNC to make this situation right. They need to seriously consider our concerns, and to conduct recounts in several different states, supervised by reliable representatives from both campaigns - maybe even UN observers.

If they do this - and soon - they may be able to patch together this party and get us Bernie supporters back on board in time for the general election.

[StayFrosty]

1. When you fill your head with conspiracy theories

You begin to doubt the reality you're living in

[Shandris]

13. When you use the phrase 'conspiracy theory', you out yourself as someone who is...

...both unfamiliar with reality (or it's aggregate, but hey, semantics neh) and too naive to be considered worth listening to for anything outside of vapid entertainment selections.

Not that there's anything wrong with being a walking Quote Repeater, I mean it takes all kinds to make the world go round.

[ladjf]

22. Are you saying that there have never been any conspiracies? nt

[Shandris]

28. I'm not sure if you misposted or misread, but no, that would be ignorant of reality. =) n/t

[Reiyuki]

30. Interesting thought, can we call it 'Anti-conspiracy Theory'?

Anti-conspiracy theory: The theory that everything we are presented on the surface and in the news is true and without motive.

Anti-conspiracy theory: The theory that powerful, wealthy groups don't talk to each-other.

Anti-conspiracy theory: The theory that people in power don't manipulate the system to stay in power.


But just to be clear, it doesn't mean that every whackjob theory is accurate, it just means there have been plenty of conspiracy theories that turned out to be true, so we can't automatically rule these things out.


As far as elections though, even IF there were widespread election fraud, it likely wouldn't affect more than a few percent returns. It would be too obvious and suspicious to have an exit poll read 75% to 15% and the returns read 50%-50%. Besides, every state does things a little differently, uses different technologies, and has different levels of unethical insiders.

So I don't buy that the entire process was rigged just because it would be so large that it's impossible to conceal.

[Arneoker]

115. On the contrary, conspiracy theories are quite entertaining

Especially for the vapid!

[Time for change]

122. I love your response

So many people at this site use the words "conspiracy theory" to combat any argument that their candidate is guilty of misdeeds. They use those two words to characterize any statement that they don't like and is inconsistent with the version of events that our corporate "news" media tries to make us believe. I am so sick of it. They should apply for a job as a robot.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Conyers was on a ct hunt after Cuyahooga was stolen

Indeed he was. One of the symptoms were the exit polls via Mitofsky. Funny shit, that ran in Excelsior, not the NYT. Then there is Florida. The recount that showed Gore won, came out on a Sep 11 morning, that Sep 11. This year it is obvious the pattern continues. Someday you might even get it...maybe this November. The difference is that I will not laugh at your concerns.

[Chezboo]

66. Are you familiar with Richard Charnin? nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Yes

Him and a few others have done some of the work. I wish Conyers listened to them

To me this became a real issue in 2000

[JoePhilly]

51. + 1

[bkkyosemite]

52. It is not conspiracy it is RIGGED!

[laserhaas]

101. A...friggn...Men

Enough...is Enough

With this disingenuous defense of bad faith deeds

By calling truth seekers...names

Rigged...Rigged..Rigged

From the beginning

It's A Fact

[coyote]

62. Or maybe you telling yourself "it could never happen here"

Simply is not not true.

There is an incredible amount of money and power at stake in this election. The oligarchy is not going to let some socialist senator from Vermont get in the way of their retaining power and continuing the status quo. Thinking otherwise is naive. People have died for a lot less for what's at stake.

[jehop61]

2. Proof?

Just saying something doesn't make it true

[tonyt53]

3. So, all of those votes that HRC has received are fraudulent? Amazing.

Also, Bernie's supporters have never been on board in the first place. Most have never bothered to register to vote, even though they could have in the past. On top of that, most are registered as independents. Better lay of those conspiracy theories for a bit.

[morningfog]

7. No a single statement in your post is true.

Do you have to try to miss the mark so badly?

[insta8er]

15. Yes, they also don't seem to see how our elected officials are being bought and pander

to those who pay them. Yes I can see that most of us actually look at those things like speaking fees of 200k and think, wonder what they have to do for that?..or why would they pay them that? While others seem to be more occupied with things like...Calling her Madam President.

[JoePhilly]

54. + 1

[99Forever]

100. More millions can.

I've spoken with each of them, precisely the same as you have those you claim to speak for.

[Blue_Adept]

5. It's only going to get more hilarious in the coming weeks and months

The illegitimate win mantra will only grow. Hopefully that'll get nailed down hard as the forums shift to GE mode.

[Ohioblue22]

6. They shouldn't have to entertain paranoid delusions. You Bernie people cry theft with every loss

[Ohioblue22]

32. Oh another super-sleuth expertly tracking down secret hidden data

[stonecutter357]

55. It may be NSA.

[Agschmid]

110. ... Coming from you? That's rich.

[Arneoker]

116. Compelling arguments you have!

(NOT)

[MattP]

79. Why a newbie such as yourself always makes it a point to post join in dates

Makes no sense

[Hoyt]

8. Yeah, when Sanders' staff first hacked Democratic database, things started going bad for Clinton.

There's your corruption, not to mention whining at every loss, intimidation, threats, and such by Sanders's campaign.

[redstateblues]

87. The only dirty dealing was Bernie's techies stealing DCC data

It helped them greatly in several caucuses

[BeyondGeography]

9. State recounts supervised by UN observers?

[hopemountain]

104. yes. they supervise elections in 3rd world countries.

and now, they are needed here. disgraceful.

[Karma13612]

111. Agree 100% eom

[brush]

10. Get serious. You mean you haven't noticed that there are no cries of vote shenanigans . . .

after Sanders' wins?

All his wins are perfectly pure, just as Sanders is — oh wait, that image is no more now that he's shown his bitter, sore loser side.

Anyway, Clinton supporters are not looking for conspiracies under every rock after every Sanders win.

You guys should try that, leads to less stress, fewer windmills to tilt at.

[PeaceNikki]

14. This. And the bigger picture thing that pisses me off about the baseless claims of fraud

is that it it makes people less likely to vote if they're repeatedly told that is a rigged game, there's no reason to participate. Bullshit. We need to get MORE people to the polls, not fewer. We need to inject ourselves into the process, work the polls, observe the elections, participate in your local party. Be part of it. The ones who are most vocal about bullshit election fraud are not working. They're armchair quarterbacks full of rage.

[Lizzie Poppet]

47. Horseshit. Which candidate has the support of those with the opportunity to rig things?

Oh, and only Camp Weathervane thinks Bernie's image as a straight shooter has been harmed by all this Brockian ratfucking. Outside the bubble, higher-information voters know better.

[brush]

70. Bernies supporters complain everytime he loses. Clinton supporters congradulate him when he wins

I've seen that over and over and over here.

[Lizzie Poppet]

72. Which has precisely nothing to do with my point.

Bye, now...

[brush]

73. I was re-stating my original point that you didn't address

Oh, and great statement from the Sanders camp in the NYT about "willing to harm Clinton" — that should go over well with voters .

[redstateblues]

83. Amazing how that has worked-Hillary knew where Bernie would win so

they didn't rig things in those states-damn Hillary is brilliant to have orchestrated that

[brush]

88. R-i-g-h-t . . . seems Sanders supporters should at least commend her for that.

[Ghost Dog]

108. Perhaps the Sanders operation (crazy idea I know)

is essentially clean?

[Arneoker]

117. But he's winning the caucus states!

Which are so much more democratic than primary states where it is easier to vote, because...reasons.

[JaneyVee]

11. She won 57% of vote but only got 54% of delegates...

If the game is rigged, its rigged against her.

[reformist2]

16. I don't believe she got 57%. Nowhere near that. I believe our elections have been corrupted.

[all american girl]

37. How?

[COLGATE4]

105. The only answer you'll get is : "because"

[GulfCoast66]

94. I believe you are a bad loser

And I have proof of my belief-all your posts.

You on the other hand have some kind of CT theory that the evil Clinton machine manufactured 3 million more votes than Bernie. No proof, no evidence, just a feeling. Laughable man!

I do not care how old you are...grow up.

[Waiting For Everyman]

12. I definitely agree.

There's no doubt there has been tampering, and no doubt Sanders would have more delegates had there not been any.

I doubt that anything will be done about it, but that doesn't make it any more legit in my opinion. This primary has been a joke.

[Progressive dog]

17. They're all in it together, there are so many

that they just keep voting and winning. Bernie's followers weren't even allowed to steal two delegates in Nevada. They must be cheating.
The Hillary delegates and voters didn't stay home like we wanted and we failed to suppress their vote.

[sadoldgirl]

18. Yes, I don't trust this primary/caucus at all, and

it started in IA, imo. Bernie wanted the raw count,
the DesMoines paper agreed with him,yet it was
refused. That was the first state, and from then on
so many "glitches, irregularities, and mistakes" came
to light, but only partially.

I don't know whether Bernie could have won with
a straight forward fair system, but that is right
now irrelevant. By now I am not even sure whether
our votes will be counted correctly or not come
November.

[pa28]

19. Have the raw vote totals been released from the Iowa caucus yet?

The Des Moines Register called on the party to disclose this information and as far as I know they have not.

Until they took delegates in broad daylight in Nevada I had not given much credence to the idea of widespread fraud but at this point I believe it needs to be considered. If they were willing to do that for two delegates what else have they done?

[vintx]

74. Very well said!

People here used to care about election fraud.

[bvar22]

20. For me to regain ANY faith in the Democratic Party Primary Election system,

it would take a complete revamping of the DNC...and I mean COMPLETE,
starting with the FIRING of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz with extreme prejudice,
and working down from there.
The same applies to the DCCC and the DSCC.
From there, the Democratic Party Establishment for every single state need to undergo close scrutiny.

[jwirr]

49. And that leaves the state leadership that not only made a

deal with Hillary to launder more BIG MONEY but also for the Super-Delegates. They are what we saw in NV. It was also what we were watching in Polk County Iowa.

I have posted before about who we re-elected a Hillary proposed group of committees in our conventions. Hillary supporters proposed a slate of people no one knew and there was no other option. I am absolutely this is the same leadership in my state that made the deal with Hillary. I remains to be seen what will happen at our state convention when we elect the 12 outstanding delegates to the national convention.

It is my firm belief that they are quietly keeping control of the party because many of us Bernie supporters are new at this process.

[ladjf]

21. Also, news has reported that there will be no more exit polls for the remainder of the

campaign. That leaves the crooked vote counting machines free to steal votes with no paper trail of any sort verifying the reported votes. What a system! What could possibly go wrong?

[vintx]

75. No more exit polls?

They really are desperately clinging to power.

[redstateblues]

84. no point in any more exit polls-Bernie can't win

[felix_numinous]

25. How do we deal with

a candidate who has to cheat to win, who would LOSE AN HONEST ELECTION? How do we proceed from here? I am not a lawyer but certainly wish some public advocates could pipe in and help out.

[grasswire]

34. when the people will stand together, there is nothing we can't accomplish

The revolution isn't just Bernie's campaign.

It's millions of people paying attention, speaking out, contradicting lies, protesting unjustices....

How do we proceed with HRC? We can start by embracing truth and transparency and encouraging others to do the same.

Here on DU, we learn that HRC supporters are desperately afraid of truth about their candidate. Every piece of information that reflects badly on her is denounced, and the OP beaten up.

Some of those who post here are a lost cause in regards to discernment of truth, and there is little use in dithering with them. Theirs is a cult of personality, just as the Bush candidacy was, and little of worth is being produced here.

So perhaps that question is better asked over on jackpineradicals.org.

It is exhausting and demeaning to have to fight to present a wide variety of opinions here on DU, from which something may be learned. Maybe that's why the fight against truth is so bitter here.

But a people without truth.....those people are called subjects, not citizens.

[jwirr]

50. +1

[seabeyond]

26. I do not care what you believe. You will feed the CT and contaminate as much of the Democratic party

as you can. I do not hold much stock in it. It will ring with a certain segment, like baggers do with the Repugs. But.... most will roll their eyes.

[Codeine]

27. Nobody can logic you out

of a position you did not logic yourself into.

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. Attempts to delegitimize lost elections is a fascist tendency

[reformist2]

42. Rigging elections is more common than people want to admit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. You need to learn the meaning of that word you keep misusing

[bvar22]

69. ...and rigging elections IS a fascist trademark!

[vintx]

77. Remember when just about ALL of DU used to be concerned with e-voting?

It's like the invasion of the body snatchers...

[snagglepuss]

31. knr

[Dem2]

33. yeah same s*** different day

You are losing credibility, sorry.

[grasswire]

35. Hang in there.

You have every right to your opinion.

[brooklynite]

36. Tell you what; forget your big picture conspiracy...

...Which SPECIFIC actions in which SPECIFIC States shifted the delegate total to give Clinton a lead she didn't deserve?

Let's start with two easy ones:

New York: 100,000 Sanders voters were purged from the voting lists!!!

Response: A REPUBLICAN BOE employee did a sloppy job of removing names from the list. First there is no data that suggests that this fell uniquely on Sanders voters. Second, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT THOSE VOTERS TURN UP TO VOTE in any significant numbers such that their inability to vote gave the edge to Clinton

Massachusetts: Bill Clinton interfered with voting at polling sites!!!

Response: First, the Mayor, Police Chief and Election Manager knew he was coming a day in advance. Second, do you seriously believe that showing up for 15 minutes outside 1-2 precincts shifted enough votes to affect the Statewide outcome?

Fell free to pitch me some others.

[Bohunk68]

91. False comparison. Amount of votes is not what is at issue.

What is at issue is the he interfered, contrary to legislated law. You are basing all of your argument on "significant numbers" when that is not the issue.

[brooklynite]

93. The REPUBLICAN Secretary of State disagrees with you...sorry.

[Bohunk68]

109. Color me surprised. Of course, she would.

[YouDig]

38. Do you also think the earth is flat?

[sufrommich]

39. Isn't that the whole point of Sanders supporters crying

"corruption!" every time Clinton wins? So you can all delegitimize her campaign?

[Betty Karlson]

40. K&R for exposure. eom

[reformist2]

43. Thanks! Please continue to post threads like this if and when this thread gets hidden.

I'm probably a few jury votes away from a universal ban. The censorship here is increasing at an alarming rate.

[Betty Karlson]

44. well, maybe the paid contributors will be happy to have the place to themselves.

[SwampG8r]

121. The jury has been turned into a.star chamber

When paying members can have their jury duty stripped of them without notice we've left any semblance of fairness behind.
They don't have to worry about jury stacking now because they're prestacked by the admins
I only hope that when they finally get rid of GDP that they reinstitute the hide rules so everyone with 20 hides has to sit and wait until all of them are gone before they can repost

[oasis]

41. "UN observers"

Get real.

[Lizzie Poppet]

48. Way too many unanswered questions, way too many suspicious incidents.

Only a naive fool doesn't recognize that there has been cheating and gross manipulation. But enough to flip the results? I'm not so sure about that...but I'm open to additional evidence. I do NOT trust electronic vote tabulation...far too easy to manipulate (via floating point inaccuracies, etc.).

[stonecutter357]

53. did we really land on the moon?

[asuhornets]

56. Hillary Clinton is winning fair and square....n/t

[Karma13612]

112. Hahahahaha

Not

[yourpaljoey]

57. Continued DNC dirty tricks will force Sanders into a third-party run

The people might even demand it.

[CrowCityDem]

58. With all the 'rigged talk', Bernie would be illegitimate if he somehow won, by hiw own words.

[GoneFishin]

59. Forget about any good faith acts beyond miniscule token gestures. Thieves don't give up the stolen

loot after they pull off a big heist.

[Starry Messenger]

60. These threads are sad.

Anyone who has done any amount of political work knows that campaigns are often hard work and chronically short-handed.

The idea that there would be time, humans, or resources to devote to some kind of shadow activity going on under the crushing task at hand is pitiable.

[obamanut2012]

61. This

[RKP5637]

63. I'm not even remotely a CT'er, but I do seriously wonder WTF is going on in the US anymore across

all politics/politicians. And M$M can not be trusted. IMO the US is in deep sh**. There are many divides in the US and I doubt it is healing no matter who wins the GE. It's been growing for years, this election season is just bringing it to a head.

[cantbeserious]

64. Bernie Is The Only Antidote For The Corrupt Nation Once Known As America

eom

[redstateblues]

86. Sounds like something Ted Cruz would say about himself-doom and gloom-the sky is falling

[GulfCoast66]

95. Do I have to put my hand

On the bible when I say that? Seriously, are some of you even listening to what you say. You pretty much said Bernie is the savior for America. He is a bitter old man with one talking point.

[cantbeserious]

98. Your Opinion Only - Others See The World Much, Much Differently

eom

[kstewart33]

65. Conspiracies are everywhere.

It's amazing how they have infected Bernie's campaign. Every loss, a conspiracy. Every win, a justified victory.

[Todays_Illusion]

68. I agree with you OP and this last go-around the lies that Bernie Sanders and Sanders supporters just

confirmed how very deliberately corrupt the HC campaign is. I am in particular appalled that some elected officing holding Democratic, Boxer, McCaskill and others lied publicly about the violence.

[LiberalFighter]

71. It is not up to the DNC to "make it right".

If there is true suspicion it is up to the campaign that considers something is wrong.

As for these shenanigans, many incidents occur every election that some consider shenanigans. Yes, some are. But many are difficult to avoid or they occur under unusual circumstances.

[apcalc]

76. This thread title is just nucking futs.

[workinclasszero]

78. Why hasn't the Sanders campaign

filed formal complaint's in all these myriad states where flagrant cheating has happened?

Has Bernie called for a recount anywhere?

[bkkyosemite]

80. Definitely doubt it!

[Thinkingabout]

85. Well, i don't think it is going to rise to the level of three million, it isn't any

CT happening, reality is here.

[redstateblues]

89. Bernie peeps stealing HRC data is not a conspiracy theory-It was real

and it helped them greatly

[LonePirate]

90. It is easier for some people to believe a loss is due to tampering instead of winning fewer votes.

[tritsofme]

96. Wrong forum, please repost.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1135

[senz]

97. Richard Charnin's name was mentioned upthread.

Mr. Charnin is a mathematician with an extensive background in applied sciences. His current interest is in the area of election projections and election fraud.

Here is his blog: https://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/

[Corporate666]

99. Yeah... NONE of that is going to happen

The DNC is not going to appease a fringe group of loons who spend their time conjuring up ways that the system must have been rigged simply because they cannot conceive of their candidate not getting the popular vote.

You're venturing into "steel beams" territory here. The small group of vocal malcontents have a choice to make. They can back the clear leader. Or they can dissociate themselves from politics and become like every other conspiracy/kook group. Freepers, birthers, beamers, etc.

[winetourdriver]

102. get over it

Now i don't want you to force yourself though, you might hurt yourself.

[creeksneakers2]

103. I wondered before

how Sanders supporters could be so convinced that Hillary would lose to Trump but on the other hand believe that Hillary is capable of hacking the vote. If she can cheat like that surely she could win the general.

I was told by the Sanders supporters that even though Hillary would hack the GE vote she would still lose because the Republicans are better at hacking and would steal more than she can and win.

So I wondered if the Republicans are that good at stealing what is the point of campaigning at all. I was told that Bernie would win by such a landslide that stealing the election would be impossible.

I have to admire the creativity of these nuts.

[upaloopa]

106. You call on people to ligitimize your denial of reality, to make the untrue the truth.

Well since you are the one without the ability to accept what is the ligitimate truth, you will be the one who will remain lacking.

[antigop]

107. if you don't doubt the legitimacy of any election that uses voting machines either...

1) You've never written a computer program in your life.

2) You really didn't learn anything in the class.

And it's not just the voting machines. It's the program(s) that summarize and report the totals.

[RBInMaine]

113. Your INSANE conspiracy theories are MEGA-ridiculous.

[nc4bo]

114. Yet more than likely contain a rich assortment of truth.

Especially since Clinton, Inc. has never appeared interested in changing the perception of unfair, corruption infested elections.

Her silence is a YUUUUUGE "tell" for anyone paying attention.

[EndElectoral]

118. I've lacked confidence in the accuracy of elections since 2000

I believe with the increased use of computer voting with no audit trails, or serious oversight that the accuracy of voting is highly suspect.

Exit polling now shows wide discrepancies with voting patterns compared to pre-computer voting. Do I beleive there have been shenanigans in voting. Yes, I do. Can I prove it? No.

There is significant money and power in these elections at stake, and one thing I do know is intention. If people are willing to risk jail time to rob a convenience store with small stakes I most certainly believe there are more powerful forces interested in robbing elections without comprehensive oversight. I just see almost every voting irregularity dismissed haphazardly. Maybe a person gets fired occasionally, but the vote always stays.

[Time for change]

120. I more than doubt the legitimacy of her lead

I am pretty sure that if the elections had been fair she would be out of the race by now.

[Ferd Berfel]

123. yeah, I think so too

Given what we already know - I reject 'legitimacy' altogether. By the time even more comes out though it will be too late. THat's how these frauds work.