2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhat happened in Nevada gets to the character of both campaigns.
It's a good case study, a controlled experiment even, because procedurally the same thing happened twice, once on each side.
In the county conventions, the Sanders camp out-organized the Clinton camp, and ended up with a few more delegates than they had coming in. In the state convention, it was the other way around.
But the reactions of both camps tell the story. After the state convention, we got sexist slurs, physical violence, and death threats. Nothing like that happened at the county level.
A number of commentators have drawn comparisons between the Trump movement and the Bernie movement of this and other similar events. This is only partially accurate. Bernie's supporters have indeed been behaving more and more like Trump's. But Bernie hasn't been egging them on.
But he also has done very little to keep his followers under control. Yes, in Nevada he did issue a statement the day before the convention telling his supporters to stay peaceful, but it's obvious that token statements aren't going to keep these people under control. He needs to address the problem forcefully and quickly. Or, failing that, drop out of the race.
He's obviously not going to win. Does he want his legacy to be thrown chairs, death threats, and sexist slurs?
TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)In a room filled with phone cams and cameras ? Should'nt be hard , I would hate to think you would lie about something like that . It may reflect poorly on your chosen candidate ..... by your own standards .
YouDig
(2,280 posts)TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)In this day and age ? Not buying that lie .
YouDig
(2,280 posts)jfern
(5,204 posts)Yes they are . And by perpetuating this lie you are as well .
YouDig
(2,280 posts)TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)I asked for video evidence in a venue saturated with cameras ... and you can't even produce 1 video showing anything like what you described .
YouDig
(2,280 posts)TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)We can do this all day . Heresay from 2 sources does not a fact make .
YouDig
(2,280 posts)You probably also think that Bernie is "ahead" and is going to be the nominee. Not really my problem, facts are facts, whether or not you like them.
TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)You quoted 2 sources with no video in a venue filled with cameras . The honus is not upon me , other than word of mouth from 2 sources , what evidence is there . Like a video .
YouDig
(2,280 posts)But you have every right to deny facts. Just don't expect us in the reality-based community to deny along with you.
TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)Seriously ? Where is the video . After that you definitely have to post the video evidence . In a venue filled with cameras where is the video evidence .
YouDig
(2,280 posts)TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)They have been caught lying before . Where is the video evidence ?
YouDig
(2,280 posts)And what a conspiracy it is!
TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)Just they have been caught lying before so without video proof in a venue saturated with cameras only a fool would take their word as gospel . Where is the video ?
YouDig
(2,280 posts)TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)In a venue filled with cameras where oh where is the video ?
YouDig
(2,280 posts)I guess the Bernie people who shot those videos switched off their cameras before picking up chairs. Who cares?
TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)In a venue filled with cameras where is the video ? Or do only Sanders supporters have phones ? The media ? Anyone ?
YouDig
(2,280 posts)As to why the Sanders people didn't post video of themselves throwing chairs, sure, either of us can guess. But the fact that it happened is a fact.
TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)I am sure that the Hillary crowd would gladly post evidence if available .... so it's a no to any actual facts , just a few suspect people's opinions .
Human101948
(3,457 posts)just this weekend. Many people claim it happened, some claim to have been victims of it. Yet no one can substantiate it.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/03/nobody-spat-on-american-gis/
Yes, it is possible to spread stories that have no real basis.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)to video. More manufactured b.s.
TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)I just love watching them avoid a direct question ... why in a venue filled with cameras is there no video evidence ? *crickets*
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)The Nevada State Democratic Party has formally informed the DNC of their belief that Bernie Sanders' own campaign planned and orchestrated the convention disruption for "sinister" purposes. Don't bother thinking they don't have evidence for their official and extremely serious charges. Every word will have been vetted by their attorneys.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/312844982/160516-Letter-DNC-RBC-NVDemsConvention
nenagh
(1,925 posts)jfern
(5,204 posts)YouDig
(2,280 posts)But there's a difference between telling lies and throwing chairs and issuing death threats.
jfern
(5,204 posts)Those "fact checkers" need to be fact checked.
Gavile
(107 posts)Except those on David Brock's payroll. About the only thing they have in common is that they are both dissatisfied with the status quo. And why shouldn't they be?
YouDig
(2,280 posts)Gavile
(107 posts)But it's all false and transparent.
obamanut2012
(26,181 posts)Thanks!
Gavile
(107 posts)obamanut2012
(26,181 posts)Thanks, man -- I beat the old lady from down the street -- she was waiting for "money laundering."
Gavile
(107 posts)How does it feel to know you can only win by avoiding the issues, and lying about your opponent and his supporters? Don't you feel the slightest bit of shame?
obamanut2012
(26,181 posts)Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)at the county convention? They were threatened with removal. Are we forgeting this?
And still no real proof of thrown chairs or real proof of death threats from an actual Sanders supporter
stonecutter357
(12,698 posts)Gavile
(107 posts)Just like all the rest of them.
We're still waiting for the video footage that proves any of that even happened.
stonecutter357
(12,698 posts)it's not meme Bernie supporter acted like thugs..
Gavile
(107 posts)Are people who never liked Bernie in the first place. To non-biased observers, Bernie's legacy is intact.
stonecutter357
(12,698 posts)Gavile
(107 posts)And a few people (allegedly) throwing chairs is not a "streak".
Response to YouDig (Original post)
DemocratSinceBirth This message was self-deleted by its author.
Broward
(1,976 posts)BlueLouisville
(28 posts)The Nevada convention was a totally undemocratic process. The Chair started voting a half hour early and used that time to pass 'temporary rules' for the convention. Oddly all of Clinton's supporters were there for the early vote, while Sanders supporters were milling around outside. They refused to recognize the minority report, until somebody else donated their speaking time for something that should have been allowed. The Chair took voice votes which were clearly opposite of what she ruled, then she seconded her own motion and adjourned the convention. Forget about the candidates for a minute and try to focus on the undemocratic process that unfolded in Nevada.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)threats), but now that the actual facts have been reported, what happened was simply that Bernie people didn't show up. And then the ones that did started disrupting because they were upset.
BlueLouisville
(28 posts)I'm not defending or absolving the behavior of Sanders supporters but the process was undemocratic. You can vote for whoever you want, but supporting the actions of the Nevada Dem Party is absurd. I have every intention of voting for Sec. Clinton in the general, but this whole primary process has been slanted in her favor and if you can't acknowledge that fact, then you've lost all objectivity. I vote blue no matter what and it's true I prefer Sen. Sanders, but I don't dislike Sec. Clinton. I'm just calling a fair game between the two candidates. Sanders supporters were out of line, but so was the entire process. This is an election not a football game, at least try to remain somewhat impartial.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)There's nothing undemocratic about a majority vote. Then they tried to disrupt the convention, and the Nevada Chair didn't let them. And good for her.
I do agree that a process that depends on who shows up and who doesn't is a mess, they should just allot delegates according to the original caucus results, not these multiple layers of conventions. But Bernie benefited at the county convention when the exact opposite thing happened and Clinton people didn't show up. I don't recall and chairs being thrown and death threats.
BlueLouisville
(28 posts)The delegates should be awarded proportionally based on the state's popular vote. The whole process is outdated and confusing in my opinion. Sanders supporters were there on time and were ruled ineligible to vote. There was an early vote on 'temporary rules', which in and of itself is undemocratic. The Chair did not properly execute her job. The voice votes were obviously opposite of her rulings and even if they weren't they were close enough to perform a standing count, which is mandated by rule, but she simply seconded her own motion and adjourned the convention. It was wrong, period. We can agree to disagree...
YouDig
(2,280 posts)or because their names and addresses weren't on the delegate list. This was confirmed by the credentials committee which was made up of supporters from both candidates.
The Chair executed her job according to the convention rules. The reason the votes didn't go Bernie's way is because there were more Hillary people there than Bernie people. What happened was simply that Bernie people didn't show up, and then they tried some parliamentary tricks to cause chaos and override the vote, and those tricks didn't work, so then they got violent and issued death threats.
BlueLouisville
(28 posts)There's no point in beating a dead horse. Believe whatever version you like.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)It's not Hillary's fault that Bernie's people didn't have credentials. The rules are the rules.
I agree that the process is a mess. The delegates should just go proportionally to the original caucus results. And in the end that happened anyway. Too bad we had to have the violence and death threats.
Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)...to compare reactions to properly-run conventions vs to a convention run in an unfair way.
Of course the latter causes more anger.
Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)...the majority of DUers?
frylock
(34,825 posts)A real go-getter who is sure to move through the ranks.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I honestly don't know the answer to that question. (And the fact that I'm unable to easily and definitely answer that question in the negative reflects poorly on Sanders and his campaign, doesn't it?)
Alerter: These are my personal observations and my personal opinions.
glowing
(12,233 posts)But thanks for playing the "Bernie Bro's" meme that has taken hold... It was a nasty smear used in 2008 and it was another smear used again this time around.
BTW, I think the group of people fighting tooth and nail for the party to represent the people and the people's need over the "establishment", corporate power brokers that have control of the party and have been playing slimey, dirty tricks the whole primary season, is going to always sound better and have their malfeasance covered up by the establishment media.
Rachel Maddow was full bore lies in explaining why people were booing... Oh, and all those chairs being thrown? She showed all types of footage, and not one chair thrown anywhere. She actually looked really uncomfortable lying last night.. Like she knew she was blatantly telling ALL lies, and felt pretty dirty doing it. How far she's fallen... But when you lay down with dogs, you often get fleas.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)He knows he has no where to take this one. That his people were an embarrassment and out of control. He sits back and stays quiet.
R B Garr
(17,011 posts)KNX AM 1070 a brief report of the violence at the Nevada convention, and one commentator said that Bernie was "allowing to exist" a notion that he has somehow been "snookered" out of a nomination. So it's talked about in the general public now, not just on internet message boards, that Bernie is allowing this type of behavior to continue.
They obviously want to twist every situation to make themselves victims to justify this increasing violence. The rest of us are on to them.