2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumRalph Nader or David Brock? who is truly to blame for Bush vs Gore's per curium 5-4?
thanks.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)LexVegas
(6,121 posts)QC
(26,371 posts)must bear at least some of the blame.
Of course, that doesn't serve the rightist agenda of the loudest posters here, so it is seldom spoken of.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)yellowcanine
(35,703 posts)Not the same thing as saying who is to blame for it being that close in the first place.
Lots of blame to go around there......
grasswire
(50,130 posts)...and that's how we got George W.?
reddread
(6,896 posts)could not have been done without Joe Biden.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)youre right. Biden's baby.
Brock is simply a character assassin who called a brave woman nutty and slutty.
for which he was hired by Hillary Clinton.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)HRC's Chief of Staff, and wrote his book "Blinded By the Right" and sold out everything Ann Coulter told him about Starr's investigation to the Clinton.
Bit of inside baseball for you.
reddread
(6,896 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)judging by her statements, it wouldnt.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Had he won his own fucking state, he'd have won the election no question.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)snowy owl
(2,145 posts)who knew better and lived to regret it. SC not supposed to be political. And they knew what they were doing was wrong at the time.
reddread
(6,896 posts)or was she assuaging a cloudy conscience after the fact.
what was there to lose, for her to cast a different vote?
they could not have cast a larger shadow.
brooklynite
(94,911 posts)He was a mediocre candidate who lost 10 States won by Clinton. If he'd one just ONE of them, Florida would have been meaningless.
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)Yet despite Bush outspending him 2-1, a hostile often lying media and Nader taking GOP money to run dishonest ads about Gore; he came back to win the popular vote. Doesn't sound like such a bad candidate to me.
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)The Nader votes weren't the problem there.
Clinton's Lewinsky scandal and impeachment didn't do him any favors.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)that drove many FDR Democrats away from the ticket? (I voted Gore but the Lieberman choice almost dissuaded me). Gore made that choice.
Who chose Carter Eskew, Jack Quinn, and Peter Knight (lobbyists for tobacco, big pharma, telecom monopolies, and original affluenza boy, Marc Rich) to give control over Gore's policy team - a choice that drove even more FDR Democrats away from the ticket? Gore made that choice.
Gore began his campaign on third base as a result of being VP and Gore had a weak opponent, and yet Gore managed to fuck it up by "running to the center." This failed model seems to be Hillary's model (except as compared to Hillary, Gore had much higher favorability and trustworthiness numbers among young Democrats and independents).
Gore played a bigger role than Brock, and both Gore and Brock each played bigger roles than Nader.
Nader's role in the Florida fiasco has been exaggerated by neoliberal Democrats those looking for a scapegoat. Exit polling indicated that
(1) half of Nader voters would have stayed home if Nader hadn't run and those who wold have voted anyway were split evenly between Bush and Gore as reflected by the fact that Bush performed 2% better than his actual margin in the 2-person exit poll question,
(2) while only about a quarter of Nader voters listed Gore as a higher second choice than stay-at-home or Bush, a majority of Worker's World Party voters listed Gore as their second choice, and those votes would have more than made up the difference between Gore and Bush so Worker's World Party was more of a "spoiler" (which is what we call a third party who qualifies to appear on the ballot in America - shameful!) than the Green Party's nomination of Nader, and
(3) of the self described "liberal voters" who did not vote for Gore-Lieberman, Bush took 5 of those liberal votes that did not go to Gore for every single liberal vote for Nader instead of Gore.
There is no fact-based argument that Nader was the cause of the 5-4 Bush v. Gore decision. Moreover, it is not as if Nader ran for the Democratic nomination and ran as a third party only after losing the primary (as Lieberman did a few years later). Nader had a rightful place on the ballot as the Green Party nominee. If Gore-Lieberman ran too far to the right to win those votes, that failure is on Gore's shoulders, not Nader's.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)Gore for his lousy campaign and SCOTUS for interfering.
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)and 18 point deficient to win the popular vote?
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)PNTR with China, allowing media monopolies, allowing organized labor to be decimated, basically selling out the working class and realigning the democratic party as the 2nd corporate party.
Democrats turning their backs on a large part of the working class and ideological progressives, greens, democratic socialists, etc.
That is what put the wind in Nader's sails and gave him that 3% or whatever. It would be better for the Democrats to modify a little and let the Nader voters back in. But probably they can't do it because it would piss off their rich donors and pals.
reddread
(6,896 posts)I dont remember Nader ordering the counts to cease?
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Blaming the voters is childish and hypocritical.
Candidates choose who they're going to appeal. Gore chose to appeal to the middle. For some voters he wasn't moderate enough and they voted for Bush. For others he was too moderate and they voted for Nader or sat it out.
Nader was just another candidate trying to convince voters to vote for him and he succeeded to a small measure. Gore and Bush attracted a lot more votes but not enough for Gore to win.
Get over it.
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)But shouldn't voters take responsibility for the consequences of their actions?
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)I voted for Jill Stein in 2012. Am I responsible for Obama's win? Or, McCain's loss?
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)But if you lived in New Hampshire or Florida and voted for Nader, yes.
And doesn't Nader himself have a share of responsibility for accepting GOP money to run lying attack ads about Gore?
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)So, assuming that Hillary and The Donald are the nominees and I don't vote for either of them will I be responsible if either of them loses? Or, wins?
Does Trump gain a vote if I don't vote for her? Did Gore gain a vote if a Green in Florida or New Hampshire gain a vote if they voted for Nader.
I'm not a math wizard but I do remember that 0-0 = 0.
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)then you have a share in the responsibility if he wins. Adults take responsibility for the consequences of their actions or inaction, its immature children that refuse to and try to blame everyone else.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)If I don't buy a Pepsi and Pepsi goes broke does than make me responsible?
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)As the saying goes, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." So you can play childish games all you want. But if you don't do what it takes to stop Trump, you share in the responsibility for all the damage that he does.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)I'm voting against the "triumph of evil" in whatever form or however wrapped it is pretty platitudes and promises.
"Non-cooperation with evil is a sacred duty" Mahatma Gandhi
A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right. Thomas Paine
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)you have a share of the responsibility of all the damage he will do. As Bill Maher said last Friday, "This is a What Did You Do During the War, Daddy? Moment". So you can self-righteously sit on your ideological high horse or you can actually do something to stop Trump.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Isn't that what you're doing?
Ideological high horse? What is that? I'm not an ideologue. I would think that anyone that demands that people vote for one party or one candidate would fit that description.
"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." Thomas Jefferson
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)you are doing noting. You can lie to yourself about it but in the end you know that is the truth.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Same as you.
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)If the candidate that you prefer has no chance of winning and it hurts the candidate that actually has a chance of defeating Trump, then you are helping Trump. You can childishly try to make excuses all you want Mikey but that doesn't change reality which is probably why you are continuing to argue this.
reddread
(6,896 posts)putting the blame on another state that didnt go his way sure takes the heat off a massive state that did, despite GW's brothers best efforts and it took the SCOTUS to seal the deal.
nobody else stopped the recounts before declaring a winner.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Few in politics are as ignorant as the "both parties are the same" crowd.
reddread
(6,896 posts)used to be people had higher expectations of themselves as citizens.
no longer.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Still not sure I get it.
"used to be people had higher expectations of themselves as citizens."
I agree with that. The two parties are the same people really lowered my expectations when it comes to voting. They are simply idiots. Understanding how stupid that crowd was is really about the only good that came from that election. Now anytime someone says both parties are the same they are simply viewed as idiots.
That's really the only silver lining from that election.
reddread
(6,896 posts)I think it really depends on where you stand as to how things appear.
Is starvation a better method of killing?
less humane, perhaps, but cheaper!
reddread
(6,896 posts)we can expect many replays.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Scalia
Rehnquist
Thomas
Kennedy
O'Connor
Va Lefty
(6,252 posts)"Peter Hart and Jim Naureckas, two commentators for Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR), called the media "serial exaggerators" and alleged that several media outlets were constantly exaggerating criticism of Gore....also alleged the media supposedly gave Bush a pass on certain issues"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2000#Results
The Media, especially the beltway media hated Gore. Remember all the stories about how he lied all the time and the sighs during the debates when Bush was talking? More than Nader or the felonious five I blame the press. After the first recount The Fla. Senate was going to appoint Bush electors regardless of what any court ruled. They were determined to install W. Remember the "Brooks Brothers Riot?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2000#Results
reddread
(6,896 posts)which dovetailed with the military/security agenda that unfolded.
Va Lefty
(6,252 posts)Freddie
(9,275 posts)Caused Gore to lose the election.
If less than half of the 22,000 votes for Nader in NH had gone to Gore, he would have gotten 4 more electoral votes and it wouldn't have mattered who won Florida.
Voting (or not) really does have consequences.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)CobaltBlue
(1,122 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)isnt that how we got GW?
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)And Joe Lieberman.
SheenaR
(2,052 posts)How about he wins his home state and there's nothing to worry about
First person to lose their home state in 28 years. How about that gets some attention
asuhornets
(2,405 posts)MattP
(3,304 posts)Anybody defending his role in 2000 has no memory of the time, it happend.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Instead of trying to justify it. Elections have consequences. Thanks for Bush Cheney
Freddie
(9,275 posts)My BIL voted for Nader. In PA so no real harm done, but it confirmed my observation that he's an idiot at times. He's definitely changed his tune this time and will be voting for HRC this Nov.