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Onlooker

(5,636 posts)
Thu May 12, 2016, 07:13 AM May 2016

Sanders is no better than Hillary

Many in this forum have called Hillary Clinton a neocon, a moderate Republican, a Wall Street shill, have complained that she talks too much, is too loud, "cackles," and have signed on to virtually every attack on her by the right wing. But, it's easy to attack, and if we want to look at the candidate negatively, it's not difficult to create as unflattering a portrait of Bernie as has been done of Hillary.

Sanders pretends to be a big supporter of civil rights, women's rights, and gay rights, but he's nothing but a liberal vote. He's never accomplished anything for those groups in all his years in Congress. That's why he boasts so much about DOMA. Meanwhile, his DOMA vote accomplished nothing, perhaps because he simply cast the vote without making one public statement against it. There's a reason that most of the leaders in civil rights, women's rights, and gay rights don't support him.

Sanders views on foreign policy are the same kinds of views of the socialist international that embarrassed itself prior to WWII with its pacifism. If Sanders has his way ISIS and Assad will commit genocide unabated.

Sanders views on international trade are fundamentally bigoted. The poor underdeveloped countries have been demanding manufacturing jobs in exchange for access to their markets. Sanders wants to deny their people work, and has no plan for how he will then get access to their markets.

Sanders views on climate change are based more on religion than science. Scientists argue that fracking and nuclear power are low-carbon transitional energy technologies that we should use until we more fully develop renewable energy. Sanders basically wants to reduce all sorts of energy sources, which will ensure skyrocketing energy prices that will especially hurt the poor.

Sanders seems to think he is a religious leader, and I think he embarrassed himself with that stunt at the Vatican where he had to beg for a few seconds with the Pope. There's something disturbing about him going to the Vatican.

Sanders views on guns is right wing. He supports giving gun manufacturers special liability protection, unlike most other kinds of manufacturers.

Sanders campaign is in some ways racist. Like Trump, his campaign has been consistently geared towards white states and towards the kinds of people who have the time and freedom to attend caucuses, and he and his campaign have done their best to marginalize the truly diverse states. His campaign themes are largely that economic justice fixes everything, but that basically means that people of color remain further down that white people. A $15 minimum wage is great, but it does nothing for the rampant unemployment and discrimination against PoC.

Sanders is not particularly honest. He pretends he was a big supporter of gay marriage, yet he never spoke up about DOMA, never publicly endorsed Bill Clinton's many initiatives on gay rights, and did not support gay marriage until the Vermont legislature approved it. He pretends he is so against the Iraq War, yet he voted for regime change in 1999 and war appropriations in 2001. He claims he's so concerned about civil rights, yet he's spent the last half century living in a state that is less than 1% black and which played virtually no role in the great American civil and human rights battles of the last half century. Further, like Trump, he insists on keeping most of his tax records secret.

Sanders tax plan is rooted in a different era, an era when people had pensions and families lived together. Now, more and more people have 401Ks and like or not depend on the Wall Street. Sanders plan would hurt anyone who has a 401K.

Sanders is an old style ideologue, sort of a Ted Cruz of the left. No wonder Sanders has admitted to admiring Castro. Sanders sees the issues in simplistic ideological black and white thinking. A principle part of his campaign strategy are large rallies, just like Trump has, which promote groupthink and intimidation. FDR and JFK were never ideologues. They were far more pragmatic.

Sure, Sanders has some good ideas, and he's certainly better than any Republican.

But, Hillary supporters aren't fooled by Sanders. There's a reason he's losing. There's a reason that the single most consistently liberal constituency in the Democratic Party -- people of color -- support Hillary. They see the truth about Sanders.

53 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Sanders is no better than Hillary (Original Post) Onlooker May 2016 OP
About damn time StayFrosty May 2016 #1
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel May 2016 #11
Americans for Continued Abuse endorse Hillary Baobab May 2016 #36
"There's desperation in the air. It stains all your clothes and no detergent gets it out" hobbit709 May 2016 #2
+1 B Calm May 2016 #3
But if he wins a couple states, that means math doesn't count! Lil Missy May 2016 #4
For the people who have invested in 401k for their retirements will really hurt Thinkingabout May 2016 #5
I have around a million dollars invested in different funds. Bernie will bring stability B Calm May 2016 #12
Oh, yes, how, his base wants him attacking Wall Street. In fact I have read Thinkingabout May 2016 #15
Bernie wants to tax Wall Street speculation and that would bring stability. B Calm May 2016 #19
Oh yes, let's get rid of the predatory capitalism or capitalism, wonder what would happen Thinkingabout May 2016 #45
When did the US stop taxing speculation? B Calm May 2016 #46
It would require Sanders to pay more than 10% of taxes, I would not mind that rate through my life Thinkingabout May 2016 #51
Nope Demsrule86 May 2016 #28
You are completely wrong. We use to tax speculation and there is a history that B Calm May 2016 #33
Bill Clinton said WTO GATS forced him to repeal Glass-Steagall Baobab May 2016 #37
Bingo! B Calm May 2016 #39
Sanders is better than Clinton for sure, for at least one reason... TCJ70 May 2016 #6
Bernie has as many mistakes as Hillary Onlooker May 2016 #52
He goes on rants about military spending StayFrosty May 2016 #7
And votes to keep them funded whether productive or not. Thinkingabout May 2016 #16
I would hold my nose and vote for him. Thank goodness he has no chance. nt LexVegas May 2016 #8
Meh. He's marginally better than Hillary Clinton Recursion May 2016 #9
Ageism? apcalc May 2016 #32
Ageism puffy socks May 2016 #42
We Need a Dislike Button blondie58 May 2016 #10
Merriam-Webster>screed... dchill May 2016 #13
Damn that Sanders, and you know I've never heard him say he's made a mistake, all high and mighty,,, bahrbearian May 2016 #14
What a dishonest crock of.... cali May 2016 #17
K&R! lunamagica May 2016 #18
Hilly "superpredaror", hilly supporting the military coup in Honduras. Hilly Libya cali May 2016 #20
Bernie "ghetto" ... Onlooker May 2016 #49
Wish I could rec this a 100 times. Excellent OP. Surya Gayatri May 2016 #21
I remain ... unconvinced. Thanks for sharing, though. Hiraeth May 2016 #22
Wow. Sanders is human. Someone finally said it. apnu May 2016 #23
Ah, the Clinton Defense (again): Plead guilty and claim everyone else does it. GreatGazoo May 2016 #24
Well Hillary is courting UglyGreed May 2016 #25
Sorry. He's tons better. merrily May 2016 #26
Sorry. This OP is just stupid. Dawgs May 2016 #27
You're soaking in it. Bluenorthwest May 2016 #29
There is no perfect candidate for sure... apcalc May 2016 #30
What a load of crap. n/t Jester Messiah May 2016 #31
Sanders is much better than Hillary/Trump Baobab May 2016 #34
Great job! Thanks! COLGATE4 May 2016 #35
You're well past the point of no return. Good luck, you're going to need it. Broward May 2016 #38
Sanders does have problems My Good Babushka May 2016 #40
LOL cherokeeprogressive May 2016 #41
There's a reason Bernie talks in broad terms: CrowCityDem May 2016 #43
This is basically just a repost of your eleventh hide from yesterday. n/t QC May 2016 #44
Nice collection of bullshit. blackspade May 2016 #47
Not in the real world. Waiting For Everyman May 2016 #48
Ted Cruz of the left?!?! Sivart May 2016 #50
K & R BootinUp May 2016 #53

Response to StayFrosty (Reply #1)

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
2. "There's desperation in the air. It stains all your clothes and no detergent gets it out"
Thu May 12, 2016, 07:20 AM
May 2016

That is the feeling I get from your OP.
Was there any smear you left out?

Lil Missy

(17,865 posts)
4. But if he wins a couple states, that means math doesn't count!
Thu May 12, 2016, 07:22 AM
May 2016

He won several Caucuses! In a row!

Just look at his trajectory!

Benghazi!!

Bernie farts rainbows!!

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
5. For the people who have invested in 401k for their retirements will really hurt
Thu May 12, 2016, 07:23 AM
May 2016

The possibility of retaining those pension planning by many. The hate thrown at Wall Street is overboard. In other words "Leave our damn 401k alone".

 

B Calm

(28,762 posts)
12. I have around a million dollars invested in different funds. Bernie will bring stability
Thu May 12, 2016, 07:51 AM
May 2016

in the market.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
15. Oh, yes, how, his base wants him attacking Wall Street. In fact I have read
Thu May 12, 2016, 08:08 AM
May 2016

Post with the thinking to take companies and divide their profits among everyone else, see where your investment will be after this move, not stronger.

 

B Calm

(28,762 posts)
19. Bernie wants to tax Wall Street speculation and that would bring stability.
Thu May 12, 2016, 08:14 AM
May 2016

Predatory Capitalism has been going unchecked.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
45. Oh yes, let's get rid of the predatory capitalism or capitalism, wonder what would happen
Thu May 12, 2016, 09:24 AM
May 2016

To your investments after this. I don't play his game, he praises Cuba because they have health insurance for their citizens but how much does he like their governing. I like my investments, I like my 401k, I like capitalism, I like to work to provide for myself.

 

B Calm

(28,762 posts)
46. When did the US stop taxing speculation?
Thu May 12, 2016, 09:28 AM
May 2016

Similar taxes already exist in more than 30 countries, including the United Kingdom, South Korea, South Africa, India, Hong Kong and Brazil. Encouraged by their experience, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and seven other European countries are moving forward with plans to adopt a coordinated speculation tax.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
51. It would require Sanders to pay more than 10% of taxes, I would not mind that rate through my life
Thu May 12, 2016, 10:01 AM
May 2016

for sure. Even Romney paid a higher rate and he gave a much larger percentage to charity.

Demsrule86

(68,774 posts)
28. Nope
Thu May 12, 2016, 08:38 AM
May 2016

Regulation would bring stability...Bernie's plan would bring depression and send the banking system to China most likely. His ideas are completely wrong.

 

B Calm

(28,762 posts)
33. You are completely wrong. We use to tax speculation and there is a history that
Thu May 12, 2016, 08:43 AM
May 2016

proves the markets were more stable than what we see today.

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
6. Sanders is better than Clinton for sure, for at least one reason...
Thu May 12, 2016, 07:26 AM
May 2016

...while he has made mistakes in the past policy wise, he gets it right the majority of the time. Hillary generally has had to retract her positions 10-15 years later.

That trend is dangerous for someone wanting to be in the White House where they won't have to bear responsibility for those decisions.

 

Onlooker

(5,636 posts)
52. Bernie has as many mistakes as Hillary
Thu May 12, 2016, 06:16 PM
May 2016

Voting for regime change in Iraq (1999), war appropriations for Afghanistan and Iraq (2001), special liability protection for gun manufacturers, legislation to protect the anti-immigrant vigilante Minutemen, legislation to prevent Obama from moving Guantanamo detainees into US prisons, the 1994 Crime Bill, bans keeping immigrants out of the country who overstayed their visas,
Voting against: Amber alert, outlawing digitized child porn, the 2007 immigration bill, Brady bill (5x).

StayFrosty

(237 posts)
7. He goes on rants about military spending
Thu May 12, 2016, 07:27 AM
May 2016

But Senator Sanders sure does love the 1 trillion F 35 Jet Fighter

Considered by many to be one of the biggest bondoggles in Pentagon history

He welcomed a GE plant to Burlington when he was mayor and that plant manufactured gatling guns

He decries defense corporations in his speeches

But when they come to his backyard the senator welcomes them with open arms

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
9. Meh. He's marginally better than Hillary Clinton
Thu May 12, 2016, 07:29 AM
May 2016

But the margin keeps getting smaller.

I'm still furious that the two candidates we were stuck with are both older than my retired parents. This is absurd.

dchill

(38,603 posts)
13. Merriam-Webster>screed...
Thu May 12, 2016, 07:56 AM
May 2016

a long and often angry piece of writing that usually accuses someone of something or complains about something.

bahrbearian

(13,466 posts)
14. Damn that Sanders, and you know I've never heard him say he's made a mistake, all high and mighty,,,
Thu May 12, 2016, 08:04 AM
May 2016

and you know he's made plenty like voting to fund the troops, why didn't he apologize for that

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
20. Hilly "superpredaror", hilly supporting the military coup in Honduras. Hilly Libya
Thu May 12, 2016, 08:14 AM
May 2016

And you call Bernie racist.

Go....... yeah, that

 

Onlooker

(5,636 posts)
49. Bernie "ghetto" ...
Thu May 12, 2016, 09:49 AM
May 2016

... Bernie silent on Honduras at the time. Bernie choosing to represent a constituency that is less than 1% black. Both sides can easily make the same sort of accusations.

apnu

(8,759 posts)
23. Wow. Sanders is human. Someone finally said it.
Thu May 12, 2016, 08:27 AM
May 2016

Thanks for reminding me that I'm not alone in this opinion. The world is not black and white. Hillary and Bernie are not binary choices. There are a lot of people around here who need to figure that out. I hope this gets rhem thinking.

I hope you put you armored pants on, the Bernie people are going to throw you under the bus.

GreatGazoo

(3,937 posts)
24. Ah, the Clinton Defense (again): Plead guilty and claim everyone else does it.
Thu May 12, 2016, 08:28 AM
May 2016

I'll give you the first part.

Way to destroy your own candidate!

 

Dawgs

(14,755 posts)
27. Sorry. This OP is just stupid.
Thu May 12, 2016, 08:35 AM
May 2016

It's nothing but Clinton talking points. No facts. No truth. No research.

It's all just opinion. And, 99% is based on nothing but guesses.

 

CrowCityDem

(2,348 posts)
43. There's a reason Bernie talks in broad terms:
Thu May 12, 2016, 09:01 AM
May 2016

The details wouldn't be as flattering. I'm not sure how many of his most vocal supporters know the votes he has taken that have no resemblance to the vision of 'progressivism' he promotes. Much like Obama was eight years ago, Bernie is only as liberal as you want to make him.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
47. Nice collection of bullshit.
Thu May 12, 2016, 09:40 AM
May 2016

An excellent summary of failed attacks against Sanders, all of which have been debunked multiple times.
Sorry you had to go through the effort to compile them in one OP.

Is this Clinton's new slogan; "No Worse than Sanders?"

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