2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumIf you don't vote Democrat this November
The potential of Roe V Wade getting overturned doesn't matter to you
A conservative supreme Court doesn't matter to you
Millions of immigrant families being torn apart doesn't matter to you
A wall being built doesn't matter to you
Muslims and mosques being under surveillance doesn't matter to you
A Muslim database doesn't matter to you
A whole religion being banned from entering the US doesn't matter to you
Obama care and expanded Medicaid doesn't matter to you
Rampant voter ID laws don't matter to you
The DREAM act doesn't matter to you
Gay marriage doesn't matter to you
And everything that President Obama has worked for and accomplished doesn't matter to you
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Well stated but to be clear the "I'm not voting both parties are the same" block of voters aren't all there in the first place.
Please note that we are talking about an extremely small but vocal group here at DU. My comments are more directed at society in large.
cali
(114,904 posts)to me than economic issues and that's where I focused my energy, money and activism.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)It wasn't directed at you.
You are two smart to go down the ratfucking both parties are the same road.
Bettie
(16,139 posts)economic justice doesn't matter to your group.
The two are intertwined and not an either/or proposition.
And I know I have to vote for the lesser evil, living in a swing state.
The problem there is that the candidate who will most likely be the Dem nominee will forget all she has said about those below her on the economic ladder the second she takes office in favor of her friends on her end of that ladder.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)And I fully agree that so much of social/economic justice is intertwined.
I won't now go on to tell you what you think.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)And she's too old, and too much of a shrew.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)It's her politics and checkered past that I don't like.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)The fact that you accept the veracity of Republican fascists over that of dedicated progressive Democrats with decades-long experience - like Hillary Clinton - speaks volumes.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)..among other things,
baldguy
(36,649 posts)TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Repeat: The fact that you accept the veracity of Republican fascists over that of dedicated progressive Democrats with decades-long experience - like Hillary Clinton - speaks volumes.
That's why the RW loves you so much.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)That's a rather odd thing for a so-called progressive to say.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)jack_krass
(1,009 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Or you're advocating for a 3rd party, neither of which bode well for your veracity and honesty.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)I bet you voted for Nader on 2000. Fuck Nader.
840high
(17,196 posts)Arneoker
(375 posts)Are you going to be useful to social and economic justice or not, or do you have some other priority? I know that some will likely come here to dress it up some other way and to otherwise muddy up the issue, but the question is as simple as that.
I for one think one should try be useful.
Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)You silver tongued, magnificent bastard. You have completely pulled me to your position. I had considered voting based on my ethical principles and my refusal to vote for evil, lesser or not, but you have such an incredible way of pleading your case. All the others who came before you could learn from your mastery at debate and getting your point across and should kneel before you as they bathe in your wisdom.
Bravo, kind sir or ma'am. Bravo indeed.
djean111
(14,255 posts)We really should have a very special protected group for these things - so we can ignores them all, automatically.
Well done, sir or madam, well done!
Andy823
(11,495 posts)The JPR site, but for some reason the people there come here day after, day, after day to trash Clinton instead of doing their best to get Bernie elected. I guess you and the gang figure that trashing Hillary constantly on DU is "really" helping Bernie, or maybe you guy have a whole different agenda? I really don't think in all these months you have converted anyone over to Bernie by coming here to trash and bash, do you?
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Merryland
(1,134 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)This same guilting shit doesn't become more thoughtful and meaningful the more times it's posted. But I do find your list revealing.
Arneoker
(375 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Arneoker
(375 posts)That people who proclaim that they are voting their ethical principles are often the same ones who complain about guilt trips.
StayFrosty
(237 posts)Are those things important to you or not?
If yes then in November you'll do your civic duty and do your country a favor and vote to stop Donald Trump and make sure we can implement our progressive agenda in a piecemeal manner.
In politics if you ask for a mile, consider yourself lucky if you get half an inch
840high
(17,196 posts)Bernie.
CanadaexPat
(496 posts)to consider.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)Do you think if a California voter sita out the state risks goimg for trump?
If a texas voter sits out we are robbing Hilary of a win?
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Coming up in the next few years is so important to have a Democrat president and a Democratic Senate.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)Shadowflash
(1,536 posts)But progressives were locked out a LOT of closed primaries and NOW, all of a sudden, our opinion and what we do is important? Progressives were locked out, often, from having a say who the nominee is, why should we swear an oath to support a nominee that we had no say in and do not agree with?
No guilt here, if I don't vote for HRC.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Sketchy to say the least.
But since Obama has made this a surveillance state with NSA, I'm sure they are.
StayFrosty
(237 posts)Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)Because of people like you. People who vote for a letter behind the name rather than the principles of the candidates and where they fall on the issues. If Donald Trump had run as a Dem I am sure you'd be eating that shit sandwich and asking for seconds.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)inchhigh
(384 posts)I'm always a little suspicious of people who don't know how to use the words.
"The most natural phrase would be "Democratic primary" with a large 'D' to distinguish it from a primary that was run in a democratic manner. But many conservative Republicans say "Democrat party." It's almost a litmus test for right-wingedness. Listen to the Limbaughs and other liberal-haters, and they always say "Democrat party" and "Democrat politician" whereas more neutral people or moderate Republicans say the nicer-sounding and more natural "Democratic primary."
Leonard Hall, a former Republican National Chairman, began referring to the 'Democrat' rather than the 'Democratic' party, a habit begun by Thomas E. Dewey. Hall dropped the 'ic,' he said, because 'I think their claims that they represent the great mass of the people, and we don't is just a lot of bunk.'
The point remains that only Right wingers and those that listen to right wingers are comfortable with the term "Democrat Party," right?"
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/8/3/233098/-
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)Yeah, I'll vote for Hillary so he can have the "privilege" of fighting her ridiculous wars. Maybe, just maybe, sometimes people's needs align differently than with yours?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)With that said, yes, I do believe war is more likely with Hillary. We have her past actions and stances on war with Libya, Iraq, and Syria. We know that she has rattled the saber in relation to Iran and seems to be itching for a fight as if she continually has something to prove. While we don't have Trump's past actions to base anything from, we do have his statements, which at this point put him to the left of Hillary when it comes to the use of our military.
As someone who has served in the military and has seen what completely shitty reasons we have come up with to put our troops in harm's way (troops drawn mostly from the lower/lower middle class) and the lack of care provided to them both in combat areas and back at home, these issues hit close to home. When you add into this that I have a son who has considered the military as an option, this becomes an even bigger issue for me. I don't believe I can trust either of these candidates to do right by me and my family in multiple ways, but on this issue, I know I can't trust Hillary.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)[link:http://m.
|DinahMoeHum
(21,825 posts). . .a bona fide progressive (soul rest in peace)
http://www.alternet.org/story/15789/don't_stand_in_the_way_of_our_joy
(snip)
There are many among us on the peace trail who will not support a candidate unless that candidate is perfect on every issue.
Politics is about winning.
For us, it is about winning to save lives and raise people up from poverty and illness and loneliness and injustice.
Those posturing on the left sometimes forget that.
Don't tell me that you can't support a particular candidate because of this or that.
This isn't about you and your precious political standards.
It is about saving nature and our people.
We are coming out to win, so please don't stand in our way.
When we have reasonable people in power, let us start our arguments again, for we can not move forward unless we have a decent government underneath us and a Bill of Rights to let us speak freely.
(snip)
djean111
(14,255 posts)down our throats is not good for Nature OR people.
The problem, for me, is that I don't believe Hillary is about any of those things. The Third Way and constant war create the reverse of those things.
merrily
(45,251 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)"Vote for Hillary because I claim that she's some unspecified amount better than this list of insane crap," doesn't do much to inspire.
Broward
(1,976 posts)The bar will only get lower if we continue to elect politicians that will take us further right.
djean111
(14,255 posts)but your abilities as a bellwether are neither better nor worse than the last few thousand attempts at admonishing and/or ordering others how to vote. Which is to say, this stuff has become either annoying or amusing, depending on degree of verbosity and authoritarianism. They just do not work, and the most you really earn - at DU - is a Full Ignore.
tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)who shares my values
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Did you vote for Obama in 2008 despite his opposition to marriage equality?
Did you vote for Obama in 2012 despite his support for the death penalty?
You're never going to get a candidate who agrees with you on every issue. The thing to do is to vote for the one who agrees with you on more issues than the other one. Especially when the other one is a dangerous maniac.
tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)i didn't vote for him in the primary and i didn't vote for clinton in the primary.
and at 50 yrs old i'm tired of just voting against the candidate i like least - i may instead vote for the for the candidate i like most
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)if everyone voted their conscience we'd be much better off. just like i dig dandelions out of my lawn rather than pour poison on them like every single other house on the block. maybe it's pointless and doesn't change anything, but if everyone did it we'd be much better off.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)but if you think we did, I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.
tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)Demsrule86
(68,768 posts)I have but one criterion;you have to win. The candidate who wins the nomination has to be the one who won the delegates. Should Bernie manage to steal the election which I don't believe he can, then Trump wins. The chaos that would ensue would make certain of that. I would not vote for Bernie; I don't vote for people who take what they don't earn.
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)Reference to "What's the Matter with Kansas?"
Social wedge issues determine which Party overseas the distribution of wealth to the top 1% and race-to-the-bottom for the middle class.
Too bad there's not a candidate in the Democratic primary who is saying establishment politics is wrong, who's looking out for the middle class, and who isn't holding Democrats hostage over wedge issues. Yeah, that's top shelf sarcasm.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Merryland
(1,134 posts)redstatebluegirl
(12,265 posts)UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)perhaps the New Democrats and the DNC should not run a candidate who is second in being the most hated candidate to ever run. No wonder Bill Clinton encouraged Trump to run in the first place....
merrily
(45,251 posts)LWolf
(46,179 posts)You sound like a Republican.
And your assertion is false.
A whole hell of a lot of social issues can matter to voters who don't vote for neo-liberals. If you are worried about that, instead of attacking potential allies, you might consider nominating someone who can actually earn their vote.
But then, those issues don't matter enough to you to do so, do they?
B Calm
(28,762 posts)ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)NewImproved Deal
(534 posts)I will NOT vote for the Former First Lady.
[link:|
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Sorry, that stuff is no longer convincing. A number of the things on your list have been Hillary positions in the past.
How about a list of the crap Hillary would do as president? She's the neocon darling, so a war or two aren't out of the question. She's all in for big trade deals that decimate America's middle class. She's not a firm defender of Social Security and Medicare. She'd compromise to "save" them. She's was for a wall before she was against it. Same for gay marriage.
Those things matter to me. And, no matter who is president I will fight for the country to do the right thing.
If you vote for Hillary in the primaries, you have voted to help elect trump. That's your fault, not mine.
NV Whino
(20,886 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)Downticket
I live in CT
closeupready
(29,503 posts)QC
(26,371 posts)Buns_of_Fire
(17,209 posts)BARNEY theme song ("I love you, you love me..." in background.
[center]FADE IN[/center]
[center]BARNEY[/center]
Hi, kids! It's your friend Barney! I sure am glad to see you! I've got something very, very important to tell you!
In a little while, your parents are going to choose a new President. This is very, very important!
There's a bad, bad man who wants to be president. And you know what? He hates dinosaurs!
But there's a very, very nice lady who wants to make me safe. Her name is Hill-a-ree Clin-ton. She will save me! You don't want to see the bad, bad man hurt me, do you?
So run to your parents RIGHT NOW and tell them that they MUST vote for Hill-a-ree Clin-ton!
[center](BARNEY FROWNS)[/center]
Or I won't like you any more...
[center]CU BARNEY[/center]
...and I'll come to you house one night and EAT YOU UP!
BARNEY waves good-bye, theme music up in background
[center]BARNEY[/center]
Bye bye, boys and girls! Remember what I said!
FADE TO BLACK; HRC logo on screen
[center]-END-[/center]
"How's that, Mr. Brock?"
"Okay. Schedule it for every Saturday morning between now and November, all networks. Can you digitize some blood on his teeth there at the end?"
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)And, I'll be voting for the most progressive candidate on the ballot who agree with me on them.
Oneironaut
(5,538 posts)Hillary is a corporate, career politician hack, but no sooner would I stab myself in the face with a hot poker than abstain from voting. Trump is a lunatic, and is frankly, frightening to world peace.
Don't sit this one out, even if you feel (like I do) that your vote is betraying your core principles. The lesser of two evils in this situation is like comparing a minor scuff in your arm to a flesh-eating virus. Get out there and vote!
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)Based on her statements and interviews, her actions as SOS, and who her mentors are (Kissinger) I believe HRC is *itching* to start war(s). I truly believe she'd rival GW in hawkishness.
[link:http://m.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I mean this, negative posts of what does not matter to people, are going to get you nowhere.
840high
(17,196 posts)opposite result on me.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)If the Democrats choose a weak candidate with low favorability who is also bad on the issues, it is their fault for choosing that bad candidate. No one else's. They have the freedom to present who they feel is best. Don't blame anyone else for your poor judgement and bad decisions. That is what you are trying to do. Be accountable for your own decisions and stop trying to blame others.
If you choose a losing candidate, then it is YOU who apparently don't believe in all those issues you listed.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)So, why are you supporting Hillary? Are you a closet Republican too?
.
Avalon Sparks
(2,569 posts)And your list has a bunch of them.
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)How does Hillary fare on those issues?
lostnfound
(16,195 posts)Because people here seem to think that those who refuse to vote are worse than those who vote GOP.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)They knew years in advance that I would never vote for Hillary.
Obama won based on an extremely progressive message in '08. Did they think all those voters would magically become neo-cons?
If she becomes the nominee, they get what they deserve.
She should never have run.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Its so frustrating.
Sky Masterson
(5,240 posts)That said, I wouldn't have voted for her anyways.
This post sounds more like a Blackmail threat than a GOTV thread
dana_b
(11,546 posts)well, I guess the day is still young.
Vote2016
(1,198 posts)Broward
(1,976 posts)BainsBane
(53,112 posts)It means they want to see much of that happen.