Hillary fans have convinced themselves that she is a progressive. You really have to willfully

[cali]

Last edited Mon May 9, 2016, 10:08 AM - Edit history (1)

erase important, even vital examples within her record and rhetoric where she has betrayed progressive policy and progressives.

Over and over and over and over.

The mental gymnastics involved justifying her history, are mind boggling.

I thoroughly expect them to do the opposite of holding her feet to the fire, if she becomes president.

[TCJ70]

1. History doesn't matter to Hillary supporters in general...

...it can't. That's why it doesn't matter that Bernie caucused with Dems for 30 years...or that he's just generally been right about things for that same length of time and she's been generally wrong about things for that same length of time. When you only really consider what someone as inconsistent as Hillary says in the last few years she looks alright, but go any further and you have to struggle.

[Buzz Clik]

5. History is PRECISELY what matters. And that's why the OP is pure bullshit.

[TCJ70]

9. If that were true...

...then no one could possibly support her. She's the wishiest of the washiest when it comes to policy positions, sometimes changing from day to day. Has made horrible judgements only to realize them 10-15 years later. Her supporters around here don't seem to mind these themes of her public life and support her anyway. History definitely does NOT matter to them, in general (can't say all, because absolutes are, generally, garbage).

[Hortensis]

73. The newest progressive wave in America began officially in 2008

with Obama's election. Virtually the entire left has been progressive for most of a century, but our power to achieve progress was mostly in eclipse from around 1978 until then.

All the insistence that bernistas are The One True Progressive Faction is just profoundly silly, wannabe-self-aggrandizing, and counterproductive nonsense. Everyone understands their need for an identity, but they need to adopt one that doesn't require committing to such massive lies that not only must history be rewritten, but understanding the political world today is impossible.

538: Hillary Clinton Was Liberal. Hillary Clinton Is Liberal.

To see how these different issues fit together to form an overall political ideology, we usually use three metrics: one based on congressional voting record, one based on public statements and one based on fundraising.

Clinton was one of the most liberal members during her time in the Senate. According to an analysis of roll call votes by Voteview, Clinton’s record was more liberal than 70 percent of Democrats in her final term in the Senate. She was more liberal than 85 percent of all members.

Clinton also has a history of very liberal public statements. Clinton rates as a “hard core liberal” per the OnTheIssues.org scale. She is as liberal as Elizabeth Warren and barely more moderate than Bernie Sanders. And while Obama is also a “hard core liberal,” Clinton again was rated as more liberal than Obama.

Sometimes I wonder whether people are confusing Clinton with her husband. Bill Clinton’s statements have been far more moderate. He has also had a more moderate donor base, according to Adam Bonica’s fundraising scores.

... Clinton isn’t tacking to the center; she’s simply staying on the left.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/hillary-clinton-was-liberal-hillary-clinton-is-liberal/

[Jitter65]

133. She doesn't have to be "progressive" to get my vote. She just has to competent, caring, and

pragmatic.

[TCJ70]

139. Well...she's missing two out of the three...n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

157. Is that why her campaign strategists seem stuck in a time warp?

"Megachurch moms"? Fucking REALLY?

[dchill]

2. Yes. But there's a LOT of willful erasing going on there.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

61. Got that right... Hillary a progressive? Yeah, that's why all those Rethugs are dumpin Trump and comin over to support her.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[redstateblues]

182. Where did you find that pic of Bernie when he got his

First job at 40?

[Ferd Berfel]

115. erasing , rewriting, obfuscating, ignoring

and of course outright lying.


It's Orwellian to describe Clinton as Progressive. She's a neocon for god sake

[JoePhilly]

3. Attacking people who disagree with you ... same as it ever was.

Bernie supporters are so much smarter than the rest of us.

[Andy823]

153. Indeed

They thought the same thing back when they were "anti Obama", then "anti Democratic party", and on to "anti Clinton". They used the same tactics then as the do now. Post a lot of BS and as long as your "gang" agrees with you, you can say anything you want, even if it isn't true. They also had their own purity test for Democrats, Liberals, and Progressives. If you didn't accept "their" view on things, well hell you just couldn't be a real Democrat, Liberal, or Progressive. They haven't change at all, except there are a whole lot of right wing trolls that are helping them this year. Kind of a merging of common hate I think.

[Buzz Clik]

4. Over 100,000 posts, and heading to the finish line.

Not with a bang but a whimper?

[cali]

6. In your fantasies Buzz, dear friend

Dream on.

[Buzz Clik]

21. No fantasy. Just waiting for you to get back...

... to following the policies of this board. And to start acting like a progressive and a Democrat.

Maybe that is a fantasy.

[Loudestlib]

30. A progressive democrat would support the most progressive candidate.

That's not Hillary.

[Buzz Clik]

37. Really! "A progressive democrat would support the most progressive candidate."

And you get to decide who that is?

So much for being a "candidate of the people" when the "authorities" get to decide who passes the purity test.

[Loudestlib]

46. If you want to call a democrat that voted for the Iraq war, made themselves a millionaire

from the handouts of bankers, and supports the fossil fuel industry, a progressive, go right ahead.

Don't expect me to buy that garbage.

[Buzz Clik]

48. Fine. You have your opinion.

I have made no attempt to force my views on you. Kindly do likewise.

[Buzz Clik]

67. Your opinion. Not mine.

[MadDAsHell]

171. I wouldn't mind if you forced your views.

I'm genuinely interested to see you attempt to argue that Hillary Clinton is more progressive than Bernie Sanders.

I'm awaiting your snarky response instead though; I highly doubt you have the courage to try to make an impossible argument.

[Broward]

51. To call a right-winger a progressive only serves to move both poles of the political spectrum

rightward. Perhaps, that's what you're after.

[Rass]

147. Are you referring to this chart?

Places things into perspective doesn't it?

[RufusTFirefly]

148. It all depends on what your definition of "is" is. n/t

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

64. Hillary's the one who gets to decide... not surprising then she appeals to Rethugs who can't wait to vote for her over Trump.

...no doubt based on Hillary's progressive values.

Go Bernie! The only GENUINE progressive in the race.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[Go Vols]

103. Hillary touts herself as Obama 3.0

"Obama says he'd be seen as moderate Republican in 1980s"

Didn't care for moderate R's then either.

[Sheepshank]

164. you think Lindsay Graham is cut of the same Cloth as Hillary simply because he disavows Trump?

same with every other vocal Republican?

you are not thinking straight. time to get over the hate

[ChisolmTrailDem]

177. Half the repukes are getting behind her, how progressive can she be? nt

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

192. If Hillary is progressive, guess that makes Ted Cruz a moderate.

Hillary can push for all the Repukes' support she wants... but she ignores Bernie - AND THE BASE! - at her own peril.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[ljm2002]

34. Says the person with 11 hides...

...showing up on their transparency page.

BWAHAHAHA

[Buzz Clik]

39. And another Sanders supporter demonstrates complete lack of ability to address the issue.

Pathetic.

[ljm2002]

41. You're the pathetic one...

...I was responding to this statement of yours, addressed to cali, in a post that did not address any "issue" at all:

"Just waiting for you to get back...

... to following the policies of this board."

I repeat:

Says the person with 11 hides on their transparency page.

BWAHAHAHA

[w4rma]

90. Buzz Clik, maybe you haven't been a Democrat long enough to understand that Democrats won't shut up

about Hillary's problems, if she were the nominee. These EXACT SAME arguments will continue on DU, except they'll be in General Discussion and on Latest Breaking News. The *only* change will be that folks won't say out loud whether they would be voting for her in the general election or not.

[Buzz Clik]

94. I am shamefully aware that a large fraction of Democrats spend all their time complaining.

For many of Sanders's supporters, the big attraction was his perceived idealism coupled with his unelectability. Supporting Sanders would ensure at least four more years of bellyaching about the direction of the country.

Never take positive action, never become part of the process. Stand on the sidelines and scream at the top of your lungs.

[w4rma]

97. When New Democrats start taking positive actions towards Wall Street criminals.

I'll listen to them. But, they won't, because they want to legalize bribery, just as much as the Republican neoconservatives do.

[Buzz Clik]

99. I love the way you guys create your own fantasy world and pretend it's real.

It reminds me the Society for Creative Anachronism or the JRR Tolkein nerds who put maps of Middle Earth on their walls.

[w4rma]

100. You're either ignorant or lying, Buzz Clik. (nt)

[Buzz Clik]

102. How sweet. I love an open mind. Let's just say ...

... I've take all the shit from you people I'm going to take. You have been blowing smoke for 6 months on this forum, and now the truth is coming out. You hate it.

Too bad.

[w4rma]

104. I love the way you Clintonites create your own fantasy world and pretend it's real.

It reminds me the Society for Creative Anachronism or the JRR Tolkein nerds who put maps of Middle Earth on their walls.

[Buzz Clik]

105. Very original. How old are you?

[w4rma]

107. How sweet. I love an open mind. Let's just say ...

... I've taken all the shit from you Clintonites that I'm going to take. You have been blowing smoke for a decade on this forum, and now the truth is coming out. You hate it.

Too bad.

[JumpinJehosaphat]

185. I love it, your reply shows you the emptiness of so many of the Clinton supporters on this board.

It's kinda like the non denial denial. Rarely have I seen the Clinton support offer a postive argument in favor of Hillary.

[w4rma]

200. I find that the only positive response to non-substantial insults, like Buzz Click's, is to repeat

it right back at them, with as little changed as possible to make it 'relevant'.

[bahrbearian]

12. "Hillary 2016, Better than Trump ask Dick Cheney"

[stonecutter357]

49. +1000

[Onlooker]

7. Bernie fans have basically fallen for their own lies

It's easy to support Hillary on progressive grounds if you:

- have deep admiration for the woman or minority who rises through the incredibly competitive white male establishment to achieve perhaps the most important position in the world.
- identify to some degree with the oppressed groups that in large numbers back Hillary, so I back Hillary as a way of backing them.
- know she's just as about as progressive as anyone on gay rights, civil rights, and womens rights.
- think she's just about as progressive as anyone but Bernie in supporting funding for various social services, including healthcare.
- reluctantly support the US being engaged if necessary in military matters involving threat of genocide or transitioning out of the mess we created under Bush.
- believe Hillary's plans for health care, tuition, and minimum wage all represent a good first step.
- back the full support Hillary gave to the Arab Spring including Libya.
- know that Bill Clinton did an enormous amount for gay rights at a time the country was very homophobic.
- know that Bill Clinton stood up for affirmative action even when Congress and the Supremes were beating it down.
- like the fact that Hillary voted 93% of the time with Sanders.
- believe that Hillary's Wall Street proposals aren't bad, but not as good as Bernie's.
- are comfortable with Hillary's continuation of Obama's energy policies that achieve a good balance between protecting the environment and the economy.
- believe her goal of a 30% reduction in greenhouse gases in 10 years is as lofty as Bernie's, but she supports scientists who favor nuclear energy and limited fracking (which both produce cleaner energy) as part of the transition to clean energy.
- believe that the Clinton family foundation will be fully defensible on ethical and progressive grounds, and will be a campaign asset.
- view Hillary's scandals, including the $40 million taxpayer funded Lewinsky scandal, as a part of a vast right wing conspiracy.
- don't fault her for getting rich off speeches anymore than faulting Gore and Kennedy for getting rich off inheritance or Kerry for getting rich off marriage.
- know that Hillary, like Bernie, has some bad votes, but like where she is now.
- have some legitimate concerns about Bernie, related to issues like guns and immigration, but also some concerns about Hillary.
- think that if the vote tallies are being manipulated by the powers that be, then the only Democrat who has a chance is Hillary.
- respect that she has devoted much of her life to people of every race, nationality, and ethnicity, so has a unique understanding of the world.
- admire her resume.
- believe that a Sanders movement is more powerful as an outsider movement.

It's like Bernie can talk his way out of the voting against the Amber alert, not speaking up on his vote against DOMA, not endorsing gay marriage until after the Vermont Legislature endorsed it, voting to protect the anti-immigrant Minutemen, voting for the $1 trillion stealth bomber program, voting for regime change in Iraq in 1999, voting for war appropriations in 2001, and he's completely forgiven. Any bad vote Hillary made is held up as who she really is. Bernie supporters use a double standard when it comes to Hillary, and personally I think part of the reason for that is ingrained sexism, but that's another point.

[JoePhilly]

8. + 1

[Henhouse]

10. K&R

[Darb]

11. You, obviously, need a refresher course.

The DU not only believes in the teabag, winger bullshit, we profess it here on a daily basis. And if you don't buy into that claptrap, lookout, the alert police are coming for ya.

The bernies are here. Sans noses.

[Bleacher Creature]

14. Thanks for this. Perfect response.

[Buzz Clik]

40. +1

[HumanityExperiment]

43. 'as anyone'...

'As anyone'.... this... this coming from HRC supporters, it's that shifting, moving of goalposts that is comical that you almost feel sorry for HRC and her supporters

Most of the public will buy into this attempt to redefine 'progressive' but smarter folks get the angle and reasoning... the play to get actual progressives to take a look at HRC and have her 'supporters' try to bash them over the head that she really is a 'progressive' by posting this drivel as you have in this reply I'm posting off of...

HRC is republican light, progressives know this, they had come to this conclusion by actually researching HRC and her positions throughout her career and when you push back on her supporters with the actual votes and positions that matter most to progressives they shut up and disappear...

Try it, it's hilarious...

[fleabiscuit]

70. Kind of like Obama's changing position on gay marriage. And that guy could never get elected...

because of it.

In fact it is a sign of mental defect if one cannot change position. And a sign of mental lacking if you cannot explain how to accomplish what you espouse, and want lemmings to follow.

[HumanityExperiment]

72. Change of position...

changing one's position to the left, to a progressive position when they're being forced into it by public opinion isn't leadership nor it it progressive / liberal to begin with...

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/09/hillary-clinton-fracking-shale-state-department-chevron

Want to wager her 'position' will slide left because of public opinion on this issue as well?

Either you're a progressive / liberal to start off with or you're not... 'changing one's' position for political expediency isn't leadership, never was, never will be...

The 'mental defect' is intellectual dishonesty going on here with trying to 'sell' your reply, knowing the actual facts and the point made by OP

[fleabiscuit]

76. You don't own progressive either. eom

[BlueMTexpat]

75. Beautiful response!

[Surya Gayatri]

80. Excellent analysis. Thanks for posting.

[seabeyond]

111. What an excellent post. I don't bother but ya... That. Nt

[Arkansas Granny]

165. +1

[BuddhaGirl]

166. +1

Thank you!

[Number23]

172. Great points. But you forgot the most egregious one of not being able -- even almost a year into the

campaign -- to intelligently articulate not only why the fuck you're running for office but how you will implement any of the grand "ideas" you have been pumping out to your fans.

To me, that is the most egregious thing of all, even worse than raising money off of trying to steal someone else's data and getting punished for it, which was also pretty damned fucked up.

[uponit7771]

196. No.. no, he said it on Maddow the other night... he called it "collective energy" will change the...

... minds of congress.

+1, These used care salesmen are still peddelling the same shit a year later with no concrete answers or when asked specifics they go into marketing diatribe overload.

[JumpinJehosaphat]

186. Wow. Surreal. You have just decribed (lol albeit with the most generous interpretation of

Progressive politics I have seen on this board) a moderate republican, the kind of politician and politics which have cost democrats the House and the Senate and the majority of the governerships and Statehouses since 2010. You have the genuine article withe Sanders why settle for a Republican?

[Onlooker]

187. Wow, Bernie voted the same way as a moderate Rep. 93% of time. LOL.

and apparently you think moderate Republicans support a $12 minimum wage, want to reduce greenhouse gases by 30%, actively support gay, women's, and civil rights, etc. While I'll grant you the fact that most of Bernie's support comes from white people, that he supported the $1 trillion stealth 1 bomber, voted to protect the anti-immigrant minutemen, supports giving special liability privileges to gun manufacturers, voted for regime change in Iraq in 1999, voted for war appropriations in 2001, did not come out for gay marriage until after the VT legislature approved it, opposed DOMA on states rights (e.g., right win) grounds and NEVER said a word about his opposition at the time, and of course voted the same way as Hillary 93% of the time. I guess that means he's a moderate Republican. We had a great liberal government from 2008 to 2010. The stimulus bill and healthcare reform were two amazing accomplishments (absolutely viewed at the time as terrific liberal achievements), among many smaller ones. But, then in 2010, only 22% of millennials turned out to vote and voted Democrat only by a 55%-44% margin. That's why we lost. Because the millennials didn't care. Now, too many people are so fucking self-righteous about Bernie. He's a good progressive, but he's no saint, and frankly his progressive record is greatly overstated; that's why so many people active in civil rights, women's rights, and gay rights are comfortable with Hillary.

[eridani]

190. That reflects the obvious facts that really progressive legislation never makes it out of committee

[JumpinJehosaphat]

206. that 93% figure is misleading.Where they differed with respect to the votes that have been cast

over the years in Congress should be enough to tell one who is the progressive choice and who is the neo/liberal, third way candidate. And lets not forget when the shit hits the fan on any given vote and policy option who is Hillary going to listen to?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/28/upshot/the-senate-votes-that-divided-hillary-clinton-and-bernie-sanders.html?_r=0

[uponit7771]

195. +1, there it is then

[Nye Bevan]

13. We know that you're not planning to vote for her.

Tue Jun 10, 2014, 03:34 PM
cali (110,975 posts)

Fine. I'll say it. I won't vote for HIllary if she's the nominee.

and yeah, I'll gladly leave DU for the duration.

I think she's a despicable opportunist, dishonest, a big supporter of the military industrial complex and much more. Almost all of it counter to the democratic ideals I believe in. I couldn't vote for her and remain true to my beliefs. And yes, I do think the Supreme Court is important, but I cannot support Hillary.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025075831

Fortunately fairly soon there will be no more campaigning against the Democratic candidate on DU.

[cali]

18. I rescinded that over a year ago.

[Nye Bevan]

19. Good to know you're warming up to Hillary!

If even you can be persuaded to rescind your "I'll never vote for Hillary" stance, I think that augurs well for her prospects in November.

[cali]

47. I'm not. I think she's sane. Trump isn't. That's it.

[Nye Bevan]

122. Hey, whenever a Bernie supporter rescinds a pledge to never vote for Hillary,

I see that as progress.

[casperthegm]

15. Is Hillary not progressive?

Only if you look at some minor things, you know stuff like; fracking, voting for the war in Iraq, no fly zones, trade deals that send our jobs overseas, cozy relationship with Wall Street, opposing Glass Steagall, opposing free college, and opposing healthcare for all.

But those are just minor things, right?

[fleabiscuit]

71. You don't own progressive. eom

[casperthegm]

83. proof?

Best way to make a point is to provide things that back up a claim. I presented my proof. Anyone care to refute it with facts?

[fleabiscuit]

89. 'SOUTHERN' red state voters shouldn't count. eom

[Go Vols]

116. That would definitely help Bernie.

[fleabiscuit]

136. The states that help him the most are the ones that don't look like America. eom

[Art_from_Ark]

189. So what states DO "look like America"?

South Carolina? Mississippi? Alabama? Arkansas? Georgia? Texas? Do mostly conservative states "look like America", while Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Washington, Hawaii and Vermont don't?

Really, that comment is one of the most asinine I have read today. And that's saying a lot.

[alittlelark]

134. Interesting #'s you have there....

Number of posts: 1,616
Number of posts, last 90 days: 1073
Favorite forum: General Discussion: Primaries, 71 posts in the last 90 days (7% of total posts)
Favorite group: Hillary Clinton, 970 posts in the last 90 days (90% of total posts)


You have been quite busy.... Btw - no one 'owns' progressive. Progressives show themselves through words and actions.

[fleabiscuit]

145. What is the words and actions test? Want to know my blood type?

I have the GDP and BS trash canned. If I show, it's usually because of a 'go look at this derp' type of comment with link. GDP will be changing soon enough, and perhaps I'll un-trash it.

[alittlelark]

146. Your reply made no sense.

[fleabiscuit]

149. I don't doubt that one bit. eom

[Maedhros]

202. Wow. You're pretty damned arrogant.

And your posts are content-free.

Best ignored.

/bye.

[uponit7771]

197. The privileged think they can define who's progressive, they can't so they rant on forums like this

[casperthegm]

198. You'd think we could come up with a consensus on what is NOT progressive

Here you go, in case you missed it; fracking, voting for the war in Iraq, no fly zones, trade deals that send our jobs overseas, cozy relationship with Wall Street, using super pacs (while saying you'll end them...after you first use them), opposing Glass Steagall, opposing free college, and opposing healthcare for all.


While opinions about what is progressive, I think that the positions above are NOT progressive, yes? And we can also agree that those are positions taken by Clinton, yes?

Thank you, and good day sir.

[Demsrule86]

16. 93% liberal voting record in the Senate

way more liberal on the gun issue...you have to be a real hater to believe she is not liberal.

[JaneyVee]

17. Bernie fans have convinced themselves they are the gatekeepers of progressivism.

Was FDR, who bombed multiple countries and interned citizens a progressive? How about Paul Wellstone, who voted for DOMA? Or how about that guy Bernie Sanders who voted to protect the gun industry, voted to deregulate Wall Street, voted against immigration reform, voted against closing GITMO, and voted for crime bill?

Mental gymnastics.

[CherokeeDem]

28. Don't confuse them with the facts....

It appears they get quite annoyed.

(good points!)

[Vinca]

20. It's kind of amusing. I have to convince myself she's not a Republican.

[redstateblues]

183. You are spending too much time in the BS echo chamber. Hillary was one of the most liberal Senators

In Congress. Lumping her in with Ted Cruz et al makes one look foolish. It's just not true.

[Vinca]

191. I'm not lumping her in with Ted Cruz. All Republicans are not the same.

All Democrats are not the same. I'm far left, Hillary is to the right. She's definitely not liberal and never has been.

[kgnu_fan]

22. It is called dellusion. It is a sad affair for the Party and for the country.

[Cheese Sandwich]

23. Sherrod Brown and Barbara Boxer backed her up. John Lewis says she was there in the civil rights

movement. Dolores Huerta says she is number one.

So you see how some people could believe it when she is surrounded by all this apparent credibility.

[cali]

25. That is not an argument

[shanti]

113. barbara boxer

good thing she is retiring, because i'd never vote for her again. she doesn't owe hillary anything at this point. sooo disappointing

[Blue_In_AK]

125. I suppose Barbara Boxer has her reasons for supporting Hillary,

but I was most disappointed in the comments she made a while ago about the "whiteness" of Bernie's crowds. After all the years that she has known and worked beside Bernie, she had to know that was a cheap and unfair shot.

[silvershadow]

24. They twist my entire world view into a pretzel. nt

[Barack_America]

26. She's received a title bump to "Dearest Leader".

In order to describe her full glory and wisdom.

Didn't you hear?

[rury]

27. Voting my conscience means writing somebody in for president. Cannot vote

for Hillary in good conscience.

[fleabiscuit]

92. Perhaps writing in yourself makes sense then. eom

[YouDig]

29. She was the 11th most liberal senator when she was there.

The fact-twisting is all on the anti-Hillary side, focusing on a few selected examples rather then her overall record.

[Beowulf]

84. Being the 11th most liberal senator doesn't make you a liberal.

You're assuming there are at least 11 liberals in the senate. I don't think there are even half that number.

[fleabiscuit]

95. P-HACKING. EOM

[bvar22]

124. There is only 1 Senator who is in the Democratic Progressive Caucus,

and that Senator is NOT Hillary.
However, Hillary IS an active associate of "The Family".

[LiberalFighter]

31. Hillary Clinton Is A Progressive Democrat, Despite What You May Have Heard

Huff Post

If Sanders is the standard by which you’re going to decide whether a politician is a progressive, then almost nobody from the Democratic Party would qualify. Take Sanders out of the equation, and suddenly Clinton looks an awful lot like a mainstream progressive — firmly on the left side of the American ideological spectrum and maybe on the left side of the Democratic Party’s, as well.

Note that this partial list leaves out whole categories of policies — like immigration, gun violence, and abortion rights — where Clinton also has staked out strongly progressive positions. In some cases, her positions are arguably more progressive than the ones Sanders has taken. (The list also does not include foreign policy, where Clinton’s interventionist instincts put her at odds with many progressives — but where, as Max Fisher of Vox has noted, Clinton’s enthusiasm for diplomacy sets her apart from conservatives.)

But Clinton’s responsibility for her husband’s agenda isn’t always self-evident, because, as first lady, she had less ability to dissent than other advisers. A better indicator of her instincts is probably her subsequent record as a senator from New York. According to those same DW-NOMINATE ratings, Clinton was the chamber’s 11th most-liberal member during her tenure. It’s a crude statistic, but it suggests strongly that she was not just progressive relative to the Senate. It suggests that she was also progressive relative to members of her own party.

[nolabels]

69. She is progressive to the point where money flows

Social issues,law and order, guns or whatever. As long as it's popular she is for it. The other side of the coin when comes to interfering with the wealthy that want to make money who support her then she is against it. It's really that simple

[LarryNM]

151. +1,000 n/t

[Beowulf]

87. Part of the genius of the Clinton's is that they have pushed the party so far to the right

coinciding with a rightward shift in the GOP is that they can call themselves liberal and progressive because they've extinguished they left wing.

[fleabiscuit]

96. You sound like you don't think there can't be nuts on both sides of the branch. n/t

[Beowulf]

126. Who says we're the same tree?

[fleabiscuit]

138. They are all clones. n/t

[CrowCityDem]

32. Your premise is only true if you think Bernie is the only definition of 'progressive'.

He's not. Not all people who share a goal have the same idea of how to get there. I've lost count of how many times I've been called a Republican here for not supporting Bernie's health care and college plans. Worthy goals, but they're stupid plans. Calling a stupid plan a stupid plan has nothing to do with how progressive I am.

[Trust Buster]

33. Sanders supporters have convinced themselves that continuing to attack the Democratic nominee

will somehow magically heal their bruised egos. Attack all you wish. Your candidate still lost.

[B Calm]

42. Do you know what she said to the Wall Street Banksters who had stolen our money and brought

the US economy to it's knees, then begged the tax payers for more money?

[Trust Buster]

44. Do you know anything about Sanders' tax returns ? He's just like Trump.

[w4rma]

91. Sanders's family doesn't make enough money to have done anything untoward.

Clinton got wealthy beyond the dreams of most Americans off of politics, though. A single Clinton speech netted her more money than Sanders made in an entire year.

Quit trying to smear anyone to the left of Clinton.

[Trust Buster]

119. So says you. I think, like Trump, there's got to be a reason Sanders has bucked tradition here.

[VulgarPoet]

35. Her supporters do more mental gymnastics than fire and brimstone Talibangelists. nt

[fleabiscuit]

93. Wow, that was really clever. n/t

[Octafish]

36. When they reach retirement age, they probably won't remember what happened to Social Security.

The author was a Chicago Boy helping implement the privatization scam for Pinochet, ITT and the globalist crowd:

President Clinton and the Chilean Model.

By José Piñera

Midnight at the House of Good and Evil

"It is 12:30 at night, and Bill Clinton asks me and Dottie: 'What do you know about the Chilean social-security system?'” recounted Richard Lamm, the three-term former governor of Colorado. It was March 1995, and Lamm and his wife were staying that weekend in the Lincoln Bedroom of the White House.

I read about this surprising midnight conversation in an article by Jonathan Alter (Newsweek, May 13, 1996), as I was waiting at Dulles International Airport for a flight to Europe. The article also said that early the next morning, before he left to go jogging, President Bill Clinton arranged for a special report about the Chilean reform produced by his staff to be slipped under Lamm's door.

That news piqued my interest, so as soon as I came back to the United States, I went to visit Richard Lamm. I wanted to know the exact circumstances in which the president of the world’s superpower engages a fellow former governor in a Saturday night exchange about the system I had implemented 15 years earlier.

Lamn and I shared a coffee on the terrace of his house in Denver. He not only was the most genial host to this curious Chilean, but he also proved to be deeply motivated by the issues surrounding aging and the future of America. So we had an engaging conversation. At the conclusion, I ventured to ask him for a copy of the report that Clinton had given him. He agreed to give it to me on the condition that I do not make it public while Clinton was president. He also gave me a copy of the handwritten note on White House stationery, dated 3-21-95, which accompanied the report slipped under his door. It read:

Dick,
Sorry I missed you this morning.
It was great to have you and Dottie here.
Here's the stuff on Chile I mentioned.
Best,
Bill.

Three months before that Clinton-Lamm conversation about the Chilean system, I had a long lunch in Santiago with journalist Joe Klein of Newsweek magazine. A few weeks afterwards, he wrote a compelling article entitled,[font color="green"] "If Chile can do it...couldn´t North America privatize its social-security system?" [/font color]He concluded by stating that "the Chilean system is perhaps the first significant social-policy idea to emanate from the Southern Hemisphere." (Newsweek, December 12, 1994).

I have reasons to think that probably this piece got Clinton’s attention and, given his passion for policy issues, he became a quasi expert on Chile’s Social Security reform. Clinton was familiar with Klein, as the journalist covered the 1992 presidential race and went on anonymously to write the bestseller Primary Colors, a thinly-veiled account of Clinton’s campaign.

“The mother of all reforms”

While studying for a Masters and a Ph.D. in economics at Harvard University, I became enamored with America’s unique experiment in liberty and limited government. In 1835 Alexis de Tocqueville wrote the first volume of Democracy in America hoping that many of the salutary aspects of American society might be exported to his native France. I dreamed with exporting them to my native Chile.

So, upon finishing my Ph.D. in 1974 and while fully enjoying my position as a Teaching Fellow at Harvard University and a professor at Boston University, I took on the most difficult decision in my life: to go back to help my country rebuild its destroyed economy and democracy along the lines of the principles and institutions created in America by the Founding Fathers. Soon after I became Secretary of Labor and Social Security, and in 1980 I was able to create a fully funded system of personal retirement accounts. Historian Niall Ferguson has stated that this reform was “the most profound challenge to the welfare state in a generation. Thatcher and Reagan came later. The backlash against welfare started in Chile.”

But while de Tocqueville’s 1835 treatment contained largely effusive praise of American government, the second volume of Democracy in America, published five years later, strikes a more cautionary tone. He warned that “the American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money.” In fact at some point during the 20th century, the culture of self reliance and individual responsibility that had made America a great and free nation was diluted by the creation of [font color="green"] “an Entitlement State,”[/font color] reminiscent of the increasingly failed European welfare state. What America needed was a return to basics, to the founding tenets of limited government and personal responsibility.

[font color="green"]In a way, the principles America helped export so successfully to Chile through a group of free market economists needed to be reaffirmed through an emblematic reform. I felt that the Chilean solution to the impending Social Security crisis could be applied in the USA.[/font color]

CONTINUED...

http://www.josepinera.org/articles/articles_clinton_chilean_model.htm

Democratic solutions work because they are Democratic, not capitalist.

[Go Vols]

120. Thanks for that

[NorthCarolina]

38. No they haven't. They know she's not a true progressive and that's exactly

what their looking for in a candidate. The "progressive" meme is for primary contests only. Hillary supporters don't want a progressive or they would support Bernie; it's as simple as that.

[fleabiscuit]

98. Progressives know there isn't a definitive definition or representative of progressive. eom

[Maedhros]

178. Fools think 'progressive' means nothing more than 'not Republican.'

Do I need to read posts from conservatives who want to tell me what progressive means? No.

/ignore list.

[EndElectoral]

45. I don't think her supporters are that stupid. They know she's not a progressive.

By her own admission HRC has already said she's a moderate.

Her supporters just see the progressive statement as something politicians need to do to get into office - lie a little. All politicians do it. And when it becomes lie a lot, well then it's just well...look, she doesn't lie as much as Republicans right?

No, HRC supporters are not stupid, they're realists who know that to lie is what politicians must do to win elections. Only a non-pragmatist would disagree. Being a grown up is hard, and sometimes you have to tell little fibs that's all.

[Go Vols]

123. Current Prez:Obama says he'd be seen as moderate Republican in 1980s

Hillary Clinton confessed Thursday to something liberals have long suspected: being a moderate Democrat.
"You know, I get accused of being kind of moderate and center," Clinton told the audience at a Women for Hillary event in Ohio. "I plead guilty."

[Maedhros]

179. I disagree. [n/t]

[stonecutter357]

50. she is a progressive.

[Yurovsky]

66. And I'm a dinosaur! RAAAAAR!!! It's fun to pretend!

but at some point reality rears its ugly head... You know, like when HRC tells actual progressives that they're not being realistic, or they don't know how the economy or DC works... It's fine if she believes that, but it exposes her for being the 3rd Way candidate that she is.

The only people I know personally who think she's progressive are right-wing Republican nut jobs.

[leftofcool]

52. Here's a tip Cali. Don't vote for her.

[merrily]

53. When I read some of the claims, rationalizations, etc., all I can think of is

[tabasco]

54. Most Democrats in Congress had the good sense and decency to vote against the Iraq War

H. Clinton voted for the war, which indicates her poor judgment and/or poor character. She is a self-serving, two-faced politician who has proven her lack of progressive ideals. Her kinship with criminals like Henry Kissinger should make this apparent to everyone.

[hopemountain]

55. she WILL support the TPP

and all of the corporate protections - here and internationally - it sanctions to destroy any economic justice any nation on earth aspires toward.

she will continue her warhawk stance to continue feeding the military industrial complex with monies generated by following the republican/gop right wing agenda of "less government but more war" & overthrowing any government in the way of corporate interests.

she will continue to support fracking here and internationally - and heck, let's just throw in the keystone xl pipeline - and all of the other "reaping" of the earth's resources with less and less environmental, human, or wildlife safety measures.

she will soften even further on climate control measures: her focus is supporting the extraction of fossil fuels - at the demands of her corporate sponsor.

she will continue to support the privatization of our prisons and the neo-slavery apparatus she only feigns to oppose.

she will delay, delay, delay the living wage agenda.

and more... her handwriting is on the wall.

[cali]

78. She'll pick a rabid pro TPP booster

[hopemountain]

79. yes. i shudder to think

whom she considers appointing to her admin & counting her chickens before they hatch.

[pengu]

56. They're intentionally trying to redefine progressive

It is a tactic to marginalize actual progressives, not denial.

[Kip Humphrey]

57. And when she hobnobs with republicon elites begging for their money???

And when she consults repubicon policy advisers??? These are actions not of a progressive.

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. A female wartime president = "progressive", apparently. n/t

[Loki]

60. Ah, the purity test.

Perfection, I don't think I've ever managed that one, nor do I expect the impossible in others. Knowing when to say you are wrong and sorry, is much more important to me.

[cali]

63. No purity test. Just reality. She's a centrist.

[fleabiscuit]

106. You'r describing the majority of Americans. eom

[senz]

117. She promotes and votes for laws that damage Americans.

She has NO loyalty to the American people. Her loyalty is to herself.

[fleabiscuit]

118. Such as laws that...

facilitate the tens of thousands of Americans killed and injured by guns. And the many thousands of assaults, robberies, and rapes facilitated by guns?

Guess we all have our saints.

[senz]

127. Clinton approved $120M of Sandy Hook gun maker sales

and more than $300 million in gun maker sales in total. She helped convey our tax dollars to the NRA.

[fleabiscuit]

137. The SOS does not approve gun sales in the US, or grant them immunity in the US. eom

[senz]

130. NRA Lobbyist Co-Hosted Hillary Clinton Fundraiser

She's in tight with gun manufacturers.

https://theintercept.com/2016/03/01/nra-lobbyist-will-co-host-clinton-fundraiser/

[fleabiscuit]

141. Where is the lobbyist's recored senate vote? eom

[senz]

142. Forbes lobbied to kill universal background checks in 2013

Forbes has represented the NRA since 2009 and as of the last quarter of 2015 was still registered to lobby for the organization. On his lobbying disclosure, Forbes wrote that he was signed up to lobby for “Issues related to 2nd Amendment rights, regulation and gun control, and tax and appropriations related to same; issues related to corporate tax reform.”

During the 2013 push for universal background checks, Forbes was one of a phalanx of Democratic Party lobbyists employed by the NRA to kill that legislation.

https://theintercept.com/2016/03/01/nra-lobbyist-will-co-host-clinton-fundraiser/

[fleabiscuit]

143. Where is the lobbyist's recored vote? eom

[senz]

144. Apparently you don't know how lobbying works.

[fleabiscuit]

150. They can gain access to senators to pitch for immunity for gun makers. eom

[CobaltBlue]

62. My take: Hillary voters worship Hillary and Bill; Bernie voters want his platform.

[fleabiscuit]

204. IMHO, Don't play Texas Holdem.

[Doctor_J]

65. Until this primary I thought only limbeciles were this delusional.

It has been very eye opening, finding out that democrats actually aren't smarter than republicans necessarily, and gaining insight into how the party went from the one that sculpted the American Century to the soulless, corporation loving, center right zombie that's on life support.

[fleabiscuit]

152. Fascinating that 'progressives' can be so down on America and Americans.

I cringe at the thought of a sad sack 'progressive' president.

“…So America is better. And the world is better, too….”

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/05/07/remarks-president-howard-university-commencement-ceremony

[Maedhros]

180. Bullshit conservative drivel. [n/t]

[Broward]

68. Those that keep trying to redefine progressive to the right

are only serving the interests of the rich and powerful.

[George II]

74. I guess almost 13 million Americans (about 3 million more than Sanders' vote count) have...

...performed those "mental gymnastics involved in justirying her history" and are not mind boggled.

As far as this primary season and ultimate general election, when I looked at my passport this morning it still says "United States of America" and the way we choose our leaders, including President, still is through the ballot box.

[ismnotwasm]

77. Actually you just have to have basic critical thinking skills.

It really not that hard.

[fleabiscuit]

154. You sure about that not being hard? lol eom

[democrank]

81. Hillary is so "progressive"

that Henry Kissinger supports her.

[fleabiscuit]

156. Wow, IMHO that is totally vacuous. eom

[Boldine]

82. Five Reasons Hillary is Not A Progressive

1. Foreign Policy

As secretary of state, Hillary Clinton was reportedly one of the most hawkish members of President Obama's cabinet:
- Pushing for the 2009 troop surge in Afghanistan and US intervention in Libya.
- A vocal proponent of the same drone war that has led to the deaths of 2,400 civilians.
- As SoS she bragged about having presided over the imposition of "crippling sanctions" on the Iranian economy.
- She vociferously defended Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's handling of the assault on Gaza.
- Clinton's vote in favor of the Iraq war, a vote for which it took her more than a decade to express regret, was clearly not a temporary lapse in judgment.

2. Economy

- Clinton has long nurtured close ties to the financial sector. Over the course of her political career, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and Citigroup have been among her top political donors, in addition to giving heavily to the Clinton Foundation. In October 2013, Clinton received $400,000 to speak at two Goldman Sachs events and delivered what was described as a "reassuring message" to the assembled bankers.

3. Environment

- Clinton took an active role in promoting hydrofracking worldwide through the Global Shale Gas Initiative. - - Clinton's State Department, and in some cases she personally, lobbied on behalf of companies like Chevron. Since stepping down as SoS, Clinton has continued to express support for the practice, which she outlined in a September 2014 speech to the National Clean Energy Summit. She has also remained disturbingly silent on the issue of the Keystone XL pipeline.

4. Civil Liberties

In the Senate, she voted for the Patriot Act as well as its subsequent reauthorization. In an appearance in April 2014 at the University of Connecticut, she defended NSA surveillance and chastised whistleblower Edward Snowden, accusing him of supporting terrorism.

5. Religion

In 2005, she joined a bipartisan group of senators in signing onto the Workplace Religious Freedom Act, which, according to the ACLU, would effectively have legalized discrimination.

Beginning in 1993, Clinton was a member of "The Fellowship," a clandestine and influential evangelical group, which has recruited many prominent figures in business and politics and holds meetings in gender-segregated "cells."

Taken from http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/29052-five-reasons-no-progressive-should-support-hillary-clinton

[senz]

112. +1000 Her voting history, SOS actions, & financial backing are RIGHTWING CONSERVATIVE

Her followers are in thrall to a chimera.

[Doctor_J]

168. It's actually more like 50

[Lizzie Poppet]

85. The only thing progressive about Hillary might be an insurance policy.

She's a center-right corporatist on economic issues. That's really all any actual progressive needs to know about her, her lip service to progressive social issues (of no import to her string-pullers) notwithstanding.

[AgingAmerican]

86. Cognitive dissonance explains everything

It explains the inability to discuss issues. The mental gymnastics, etc everything.

[Maedhros]

88. They are masters of DoubleThink. [n/t]

[MisterP]

101. that's what she's done to the party: Clinton's power is that she can tell you, to your face, what

Last edited Mon May 9, 2016, 02:32 PM - Edit history (1)

she's going to do, and if someone reports it they'll dismiss it as twisting her words and debunked rumor that only helps the GOP

[AzDar]

108. K & R

[Teamster Jeff]

109. Hillary is exactly as progressive as the corporations/ 1% allow her to be

She is a third way corporate tool in place to manage the decline of our wages and standard of living.

[bjo59]

110. Is widespread self-deception symptomatic of a dying empire?

[pdsimdars]

114. It's all in the chart

.

[Orsino]

121. Perhaps we should think of progressive as a direction, rather than as a resume item.

If she's not really progressive, she's at least proven to be a little malleable. Electing won't absolutely close the door on the possibility of progressive change.

If enough of us demand it, I think she'll eventually claim always to have been forcwhatever it is we need. That's not nothing.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

128. GOP infiltrates normally liberal gatherings to plant doubt about likely Democratic candidate.

[Blue_In_AK]

129. I think one could safely say that she's mostly progressive (now)

on social issues, but as for economic and international matters, I think calling her progressive is a stretch.

[seabeyond]

131. Sanders "fans" have convinced themselves she is a Republican.

[Blue_Tires]

132. I've 'convinced myself' of nothing besides

the fact that she's light years ahead of Trump when it comes to competency for the position...

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

135. Seems like we need to abandon that label.

I've seen argument after argument here on DU with Clinton supporters arguing that she is a progressive. And, clearly, there are various definitions of progressive out there, some of which support that assertion.

So, never mind the label. If Hillary Clinton is a progressive, then progressives do not represent me and are not who I want leading the Democratic party. I want a return to the best of FDR.

Whatever the label, I want the Democratic party to be liberal (which can also be defined variously) in the sense outlined in Robert Kuttner's article, The Poverty of Neoliberalism.

Liberals ought to remain committed to a few big ideas.

Liberals and conservatives agree, in principle, about the value of liberty. But where liberals differ is their insistence that liberty requires greater equality than our society now generates and that liberty may be threatened, not only by arbitrary government, but also by concentrations of private wealth and power.

A second big idea that liberals ought to share is that the invisible hand of Adam Smith is an imperfect way to organize a society. Yes, the price system of the free market does a great deal -- but not everything. Partly to counteract the market, government is a necessary instrument of a democratic community, and it must be made to deliver more effectively for its citizens, rather than ritually excoriated.

A third big idea is that civic society is under assault on a broad front from market society and must be reclaimed if political democracy and a sense of common responsibility are to be part of the American prospect.

[oldandhappy]

140. yep truth

[Warren DeMontague]

155. She's gonna court "megachurch moms" now, that is her brock beltway geniuses' strategy.

What could be more progressive that THAT?

[seabeyond]

158. Why wouldn't she court right/left women. Sounds smart to me. You do want smart in your Pres, right?

[Warren DeMontague]

159. Smart would be courting Millennials, not anti-choice right wing Xtian conservatives.

[seabeyond]

161. Clinton is courting Millennials and right women damn well know who will be put in Supreme Court.

With Clinton, we are pretty damn well secure with that. So, now, the women are still choosing Clinton because they do not want Trump that much. And they tend to vote unlike the Millennials. So I ask you again, pretty smart, and we do want smart in the White House, right?

[Warren DeMontague]

162. We do want smart. And I think she's smart. But her advisors live in a beltway time warp bubble

This is just 2004's "values voters" crap rebranded. The electorate has changed in big and fundamental ways, and her campaign ought to recognize that.

Plus, Sea, the Millennials are now the biggest generational cohort, and the ones reaching voting age this year were born in '98. Making blanket statemets about the voting habits of people who were 14 the last presdiential election cycle, is foolhardy.

I know young people turn out where I live, even in off years, but our candidates give them reasons to.

[seabeyond]

169. Having a '95 and a '97, I say, that it is on us. I certainly know this generation.

They have some growing up to do also.

There is not even a discussion beyond 15 an hour and free college and health care. If our millennials think no further than that, they get what they get. As far as voting? We will see.

[Doctor_J]

167. She's on the record as being OK with a constitutional amendment to curb reproductive rights

So the right wing moms should be her core constituency.

[MisterP]

160. "Republican without believing that queering causes hurricanes"

[StevieM]

163. Can you name one bill that Obama signed in his first two years, when Democrats controlled congress,

that Hillary would have vetoed if she had been in the White House during those same two years?

[saynotoplutocrats]

170. Look at Citizens United

Anyone still confused about the difference between progressives like Hillary and the GOP candidates should look at the Citizens United Supreme Court vote. 100% of the Republican nominees (5) voted for unrestricted money in elections, 100% of the Democratic nominees (4) voted to make elections about issues and not money. Still confused about who the plutocrats are?

PS: if Hillary becomes President, the number of Democratic nominees becomes 5 and the the number of Republican becomes 4.

[H2O Man]

173. Very recommended.

It is beyond surreal. The denial of her being a neoconservative, and the delusional claim of "progressive." Like all neoconservatives, she is liberal on some domestic social policy. But she's a hawk on "national security" -- with an aggressive Middle East policy.

The only variation among neoconservatives comes within domestic economic policy. And even in that, it always and only favors the 1%.

[Demsrule86]

174. Or not be a bitter

Bernie supporter.

[Logical]

175. They are starry eyed. No logic IMO. nt

[HassleCat]

176. I got an interesting response

Claiming nobody ever fought harder or longer for women's reproductive rights. Nobody. We see what we want to see.

[KPN]

181. Well that's certainly part of it. The other part is that many Hillary supporters

are not progressives -- unfortunately.

[onehandle]

184. We're called Democrats and she's the nominee.

Tick tock. Decisive crap season is coming to a close.

[libdem4life]

188. The Democrats took a pass and enabled this situation.

It will not get past the Republicans, IMO.

[Vattel]

193. I agree. She is no progressive.

Progressives don't support welfare reform. They don't want to keep marijuana use illegal. They don't support coups that remove a democratically elected president in Honduras. They don't believe in capital punishment. They are not cozy with Kissinger. Progressives don't want to punish immigrants who illegally cross a border because that is the only way they can feed their families. Progressives don't become pro-marriage rights in 2013. Progressives don't object to "parent 1" and "parent 2" replacing "father" and "mother" on official documents for the sake of same-sex parents. Progressives don't describe themselves as "against illegal immigrants." Progressives don't vote for the Patriot Act. Progressives don't support NSA programs that undermine privacy. Progressives don't expand fracking. Progressives do not vote for the Bankruptcy Bill. Progressives do not say that single-payer healthcare will never happen. Progressives don't praise the Reagans for their efforts to address AIDS. Progressives don't support the invasion Iraq. (No, she didn't merely vote for the IWR. She supported the invasion. On the floor of the Senate, she foolishly pushed all of Bush's bullshit talking points. On the eve of the war, she did not speak out against Bush's illegal ultimatum to Hussein. She implicitly endorsed it.)

Progressives are not hawks. (Besides supporting the invasion of Iraq, she pushed Obama for an even bigger troop increase in Afghanistan than he ultimately authorized. Worse than that, she pushed Obama to pursue violent regime change in Libya. She also refuses to recognize that Israel's bombing of Gaza was disproportionate, she voted against legislation to ban cluster bombs, she has rattled her sabre towards Iran for years, she supports a no fly zone in Syria and is apparently willing to thereby risk military engagement with Russia, and she supported violent regime change in Syria, urging Obama to arm Syrian rebels.)

[All in it together]

194. I think her supporters think Hillary is progressive enough

but, it's too little too late for me to believe. You are right on.

It's just too many Dems have forgotten what Progressive is, like FDR, Kennedy, Johnson, Henry Wallace, Thomas Jefferson, and even Theodore Roosevelt (R). The DLC was the wrong road to take dear Dems.

[AZ Progressive]

199. its pretty damn clear that Hillary supporters dont care about truth and honesty

[Buzz Clik]

203. That is correct. We are corrupt lying m*therf*ckers who should be worshipping you.

[AZ Progressive]

209. You have no problem supporting one of the most corrupt Democratic candidates ever

speaks volumes about you and other Hillary supporters

[uponit7771]

207. nah, just not convinced that the used car salesmen on both sides are being honest

[Buzz Clik]

201. Nice work!

[Norrin Radd]

205. kr

[synergie]

208. Oh like voting in favor of the NRA and against the Brady Campaign? For lighter

sentences for child molesters and against the Amber alert? For regime change in Iraq, war in Afghanistan, funding for trillion dollar planes that the military doesn't want? Against rape victims knowing the HIV status of their rapists?

Yeah, to convince yourself that Bernie is what you'd like to pretend he is, you really do have to willfully ignore his record, and the mismatch between his rhetoric and his actions while in office for decades.

Your mental gymnastics are indeed mind boggling, but the projection is astounding!

I was actually afraid of what you guys would do to dear Bernie when you found out that he didn't have any way of actually getting anything done, after seeing how you turned on Obama, I'm glad Bernie and Jane will be safe from his very angry, uncontrollable followers.

BSers rather not-nice when you guys don't get your way, as we saw in Cali at that "protest".