2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumDisclaimer: If Trump runs to the left of Hillary, we could be in big trouble
Trump learned from Obama, running to the left of Hillary ("trolling"
is the route to the White House. He's baited the line.
Donald Trump now says he’ll raise taxes on the wealthy if elected president, and he supports an increase in the minimum wage. He’s already on record as wanting to renegotiate trade deals to make them “better” for American workers and limiting immigration “to protect American jobs.” Now that he has the Republican nomination sewn up, is he trolling for independents and Democrats?
-Robert Reich
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no_hypocrisy
(46,311 posts)WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)of center.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)Your logic is flawed.
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)The assertion embodied in Professor Reich's statement is that PBO ran to HRC's left in the primary and when he beat her and consequently became president he governed to her right.
How is calling for the abolition of the federal minimum wage running to Clinton's left ?
When I was seventeen I used to get high as fuck and write about how the world would be if I ordered it. That is the depth of Donald Trump's thinking. There is no there there.
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)
mcar
(42,469 posts)
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)mcar
(42,469 posts) DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)Maybe the seminal poster has the perspicacity to go past what Trump really says to divine what he really means.
I will stipulate that politicians are malleable but Trump can take three positions on an issue in the same day.
Response to WhaTHellsgoingonhere (Original post)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)Republicans are not like Democrats. They do not have independent, functioning minds. They are of a hive mind and will vote for anything the has an R next to the name. They vote in a block and they vote on their pure hatred of anything Democratic. The only thing they hate more than a generic Democrat is the last name Clinton. Hell, they refuse to listen to the music of George Clinton just because they are afraid he is related.
Of one thing you can be sure, Republicans will file into the voting booth like good little sheep and will pull the lever for the R. The big question is, how many Independent voters will go that route as well? If Trump begins to take a more sane approach to issues and pulls left, I am sure that will draw many of them in.
Response to Matt_in_STL (Reply #3)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)This isn't a new concept and has been out there for many years. I can see reference as far back as 2005 just on a cursory search.
Response to Matt_in_STL (Reply #7)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)They have historically shown themselves to vote as a block and will most likely continue to do so. They do it solidly in Congress and they do it solidly in the voting booth. How do you think Vitter stayed in office after having prostitutes put him in diapers? Because the block will stick together and vote Republican. Always have, always will.
The fact that you are here, sticking up for Republicans on something that has been pointed out on this site for years speaks volumes. President Obama even spoke to it when he talked about them clinging to their guns and religion. I have to say, I feel as though I touched a nerve here.
Response to Matt_in_STL (Reply #10)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)Despite all the braying there is not a plurality, let alone a majority of voters who want a wholesale upheaval of the system from either direction.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)You can blithely dismiss the complained of almost half of the people who voted in the primaries as "braying" of you want, but dismiss what they represent at risk of seeing Trump in the WH if you (metaphorically) do.
It's been several decades of a political game between the "reds" and the "blues" in which both parties support an increasingly unfair and and abusive power structure while arguing over specific polarizing issues on which nothing significant gets done.
That inherent corruption and polarized maneuvering has led to gridlock and paralysis, while the elites have steadily sucked up real power and the wealth of the nation so assholes like Llloyd Blankfein can buy their fifth home and the latest model jet.
People are sick of it and have become cynical and headed about politics as a result. Where they aim their discontent depends on which team they are on, or support.
Clinton is the embodiment of that system. Although Trump is too, but he has successfully cultivated the image of an effective maverick who is outside of it. He is a change candidate. His darker side appeals to conservatives -- but he is also an economic populist in tone that can draw non-aligned independents who just want a change.
Sanders is also a change candidate, except in a more positive, liberal direction. The Democratic infrastructure has chosen to go with the status quo Clinton -- but close to half of the rank and file have demonstrated a strong desire for the change Sanders represents too.
In the election, many people who are not ideologically oriented will see Trump as Populist Change, Clinton as being the Status Qup Elitist who represents a stale past.
Pays your money and takes your chances.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)They will not vote in large enough numbers to elect a a man who wants to round up and deport 12,000,000 undocumented workers and their families, wants to build a 30 foot wall on our southern border, wants to ban Muslims from the United States and surveil the ones that are already here, slap a forty five percent tariff on Chinese and Japanese goods that will hit them in their wallets and pocketbook's hard, treats women liker ersatz pole dancers, and has public events that inevitably become mired in violence.
Too much chaos.
Bookmark this post, a plurality or majority of Americans will decide whatever we have now is preferable to all that, the fondest hopes, dreams, and aspirations of internet revolutionaries, of all political stripes, notwithstanding.
glowing
(12,233 posts)He's a business owner. He is into real estate. He had to have lost wealth in the crash bubble. He's bankrupted 4 different companies. Bottom line, insurance is costly for business... Paying a private company their "wealth" off a business' "hard work", is pretty disgusting to many.
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)Demsrule86
(68,818 posts)Trump would be insane and would lose the general in even larger numbers than if he is his own sorry self...sorry anyone who buys mysongenist,racist Trump who thinks it would be fine to use nukes could be a liberal is already a Republican. His favorite justice is Scalia...I know many Bernie supporters want to believe Trump is more liberal than Hillary which of course is nonsense but what? are you starting to believe your own propaganda? If you want to support 'liberal' leaning Trump,you should not do it on this site anyway. He is a monster and anyone who votes for him has blood on his/her hands. This is why I am very disappointed in Bernie for not getting out and risking the general.
leeroysphitz
(10,462 posts)isn't a triangulating, moderate republican at all...
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)A " triangulating , moderate Republican" would appear to be progressive when running against someone who threatens to round up 12,000,000 undocumented workers and their families, ban Muslims from the United States and surveil the ones already here, treats women like ersatz pole dancers, and says he chooses Jewish accountants over black ones because the former are inherently good with money and the latter are inherently not.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)emphasis on "appear".
Shadowflash
(1,536 posts)anyway.
moriah
(8,311 posts)Because IBTimes analyzed Hillary and Trump's tax plans, which showed his to be the exact opposite.
“You have to think about the policy implications of these things, which could be a lot more important than whatever the direct implication is for your own checkbook,” Burman said. “You have to make a judgment as to who is the best leader, and who is going to reflect American values and won’t bankrupt us.”
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)Trump is a fascist. Fascism only appears to be on the left on some issues. It's kind like how the Nazis called them themselves National Socialists. And yet, socialism is on the left and national socialism is on the far right of the political spectrum. You cannot divorce the aspects of fascist thought that bears a superficial resemblance to leftist positions, from the overall package. There is NOTHING in Trump that is to the left of Hillary, no matter what superficial similarities there might be between his positions and those of progressives. Trump is on record for saying vile, hateful things about women, Muslims, Mexicans, African Americans, etc. Whatever other policy positions Trump adopts, cannot be divorced from those things. Much like nothing Hitler did could be divorced from his anti-Semitism. It's a package deal with fascists: they represent the id of civilization (read Freud's Civilization and Its Discontents for a bit of insight on this). In other words, Trump can repeat some of Bernie's ideas until he's blue in the face, but that does not make him leftist in the least, since he's a fascist through and through.
Hillary is, moreover, busy building a broader coalition than Trump, consisting of social progressives who want to see progressive SC judges and protection of women, PoC, and LGBTQ etc.; economic progressives who want to see at least some of Wall Street's excesses cured (and yes, she does have a platform for that); women who would like to see a female president; People of Color who know that the Democratic Party is by far the better choice (especially compared to the Trumpist version of the GOP); LGBTQ who know that the GOP is the enemy; disaffected Republicans who are terrified of Trump and are willing to support Hillary despite some policy differences because they know the alternative is too awful for words. This would be a diverse coalition, and not all the interest groups will agree on everything, and some will even distrust one another. That is how it always is. The key to winning an election is to build a stronger coalition than your opponent. I see Trump appealing to a narrow subset of the traditional GOP voting blocks, plus some disaffected angry (and often racist or sexist) Democrats or independents, and fools who actually believe him when he pretends to adopt progressive positions: in short, a coalition of the foolish and the crazy.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)I was taught that Hitler appropriated the Socialist label because it was popular in Europe at the time.
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)But they did have their origins in the German Workers Party, and Hitler rejected capitalism as the product of wealthy elites (which he identified with the Jews). My point is that even the appearance of some overlap between the National Socialists back then and progressives back then was false. Likewise, any appearance of similarity between Trump and Bernie is fake. You simply cannot divorce any of Trump's positions from his overall racism and fascism. I would be careful to draw too many similarities with Hitler - I think that would be inappropriate. But given what we know of historical fascism, we should also known that is modern version might be an odd duck in politics because it appears to be for workers rights etc. while being far rightwing.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,230 posts)He's locked himself in as the darling of the conservative base. He deviates from that in the general, they'll kick him to the curb.
And people on the left are much too smart to fall for his pandering. They're not going to forget the Donald Trump of the primary.
The Donald Trump we see now is the Donald Trump we'll see at least through November.
DookDook
(166 posts)Can you imagine any Limbaugh listening conservatives voting for Hillary?
He'll make the same argument to the base that HRC is making to the progressives. They'll tell the base that they need to fear the type of people that Secretary Clinton would nominate to the supreme court. My Tea Party Republican Uncle claims that he is 100 percent sure that "Hillary is going to nominate Obama to the SC if she's elected and if Trump gets in he'll nominate Maryanne Trump Barry because Trump's not really a misogynist, it's only the MSM that paints him that way."
I saw the clip they played of Trump last week on the Daily Show and he's already lighting up his tone somewhat. I think he's going to take a page of of George Bush's playbook and he's going to try to be the candidate that you'd like to have a beer with.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,230 posts)And then grumble and complain for four years, like they've grumbled and complained over the past 7.
Shadowflash
(1,536 posts)... He's ALREADY started.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-idUSKCN0XZ0I3
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)him. He would lose his base if he tries to run left and very few people on the political left would embrace him. So its a fools move, and one we don't need to be concerned about.
CobaltBlue
(1,122 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)Thank you in advance.
Tarc
(10,478 posts)Hillary squashed that with her first major anti-Trump ad, and will continue to hammer that point home. The Hispanic community will not forget that he called them border-hopping rapists, women will not forget the million-and-one misogynist things he's said, and so on.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)
WhiteTara
(29,736 posts)he did an about face and now says the opposite.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)not sure what you want Hillary to do to counter Trump's lies...tell bigger lies?
Orsino
(37,428 posts)His campaign tor the general will be no more coherent than in the primary.
