2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHillary supports are you just going to rubber stamp whatever she does?
Like now you don't want to even see the political process all the way through.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)SheenaR
(2,052 posts)are unrealistic to you and have 40-50% of voters opposing them?
No snark, we obviously don't see the same thing.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Congress will not vote for it and a bunch of people will not support it (as stupid as they might be). A Public Option will get us to single payer much faster.
SheenaR
(2,052 posts)Realistic tomorrow? No. But I would rather see someone out there advocating it until we get control of both Houses again.
Universal gay marriage was highly opposed too. The fight continued and they won.
We just seem to have different means to the end we both desire.
Thanks Hoyt for responding.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)opposed when they find out increased taxes will be necessary, and other sacrifices will be needed that they did not expect from the description of single payer spread by you guys. Ask Vermont how it worked out when they saw how much it would cost -- guess they didn't find how Sanders is going to reduce total annual health care expenditures from $3 Trilling to $1.37 Trillion.
And, I get the increase in taxes will offset premiums and supposedly the cost of health care will decline -- problem is, few believe it.
Sanders doesn't have a history of changing positions on a whim according to political expedience, and lying to people for weeks about things like being under Bosnian sniper fire on the campaign trail, in order to make a dishonest pitch to voters while knowing it's BS.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Kall
(615 posts)Selling the TPP for years as the "gold standard" then saying you're kind of against it a few weeks before the Democratic primary is not changing one's opinion, it's just changing what one says publicly for a little while. And Hillary Clinton was never of the opinion that she was under Bosnian sniper fire unless she had a medical condition that involved hallucinations - since her medicals came through clear, she was just lying to everyone for weeks in an effort to get votes with the lie.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Piss off.
Skink
(10,122 posts)Just misguided.
MrWendel
(1,881 posts)and the lack of self-awareness is amazing.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)I was buying Sanders's bullshit early on and supported him fully. A bit of research and -- you guessed it -- thinking led me to the inescapable conclusion that his concepts are untenable. He would be a reincarnation of Jimmy Carter, the sweet man with big ideas and no support in Congress to accomplish a thing.
So, you can swallow the lies without chewing, but don't project your blind devotion onto those who actually thought about this.
kaleckim
(651 posts)...if you say so.
kaleckim
(651 posts)then tell someone to piss off. Get there irony there?
BootinUp
(47,211 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)SheenaR
(2,052 posts)JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)Mischarecterizing his writing again:
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/05/29/410606045/the-bernie-sanders-rape-fantasy-essay-explained
Have some facts before they fling shit
They would never mischaracterize Senator Sanders. For shame!
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)you've never reads people giving him a pass every single fucking time the essay is brought up, agreeing with the essays, and justifying it all? wow.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1755620
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511637124
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026742105
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026757161
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026757636
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026753605
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511905132
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251429340
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1743838
shall I keep going with the documented rubber stamps?
Next time google it and you won't look like a fake obstructionist trying a stupid "gotcha" moment
procon
(15,805 posts)chervilant
(8,267 posts)Actually, I use posts like this for one very useful thing: updating my IL.
procon
(15,805 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Does the "con" part stand for "conservative" or "condescending?"
procon
(15,805 posts)Can I still pick "condescending" for $500?
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)bigtree
(86,016 posts)We no go skool.
Have you worked on a Presidential campaign before? Like paid to? Some of us have. We understand and appreciate the seriousness of the process really well. Hence my opposition to your candidate now and when I worked in 2008.
And they know you don't compromise on popular ideas before negotiations begin. Obama compromised and offered up the Republican Health Care Plan of the 1990s before negotiations began. How many Republican votes did it get him? Now the Democratic Party is the political owner of an unpopular plan that has been underwater in public opinion since Day One, and Republicans can move to repeal it 60 times with no political consequences attached, because no Republicans voted for it.
mooseprime
(474 posts)is often a very solid indicator of future behavior
flobee1
(870 posts)Its time for you to fall in line behind the party
Do not question the party
Because the party is always right.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)The outcome is highly unlikely to change.
oasis
(49,480 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Last edited Fri May 6, 2016, 01:05 PM - Edit history (1)
At least those here. I have no problem criticizing Bernie for his support of the F-35, for example. It's wrong. Period. I have never seen any forthright criticism of Hillary from her fans. Nothing but excuses.
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)But overall? His bag of bad is WAY smaller than Hillary's. And you already know they'll just pencil-whip everything she does in the name of party unity-- which is treason to the country as a whole; "my party right or wrong" is never the way to operate things fruitfully-- but I have to say, Hillary supporters scare me more than even Trump's supporters do. At least it took Trump inciting violence to get his supporters to start beating people.
cali
(114,904 posts)of her from her fans here. Nothing.
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)and yet have the undying gall to claim that Hillary Clinton's been suffering at the hands a 25 year conspiracy? I'd believe it if they said Bill. But 25 years, attacking a former First Lady-- don't they think at least SOME of the stuff she's done is legit?
Or are we just hallucinating all of her hilariously bad positions over the years that she flipflopped over due to political expedience?
kaleckim
(651 posts)and all the immature and childish responses by HRC supporters.
Obviously, the answer is that they will not challenge her, they will give a monopoly to the right (although I would argue some of them are on the right) on pushing her, thinking that makes any logical sense.
procon
(15,805 posts)Perhaps I've missed all the daily critiques and suspicious inquests coming from his fans. Look, demagogues like Bernie are always held inviolate because they are the perfect, untarnished representative of his followers unwavering faith in his righteousness.
Hillary's fans seem to be well aware of her faults and foibles, but far more pragmatic when it comes to deciding what's more realistically important; ideological purity or winning the election.
Skink
(10,122 posts)He can do better.
kaleckim
(651 posts)"what's more realistically important; ideological purity or winning the election."
Nonsense on almost every level. For one, you have no case that she is more electable. She is the second most unpopular major party nominee in modern history. She is just lucky to be running against the only one more disliked, she isn't trusted, Sanders has done better versus Trump for months, is more trusted, liked, and his positions on the issues are more popular. You can argue that this or that will happen, and you can't predict the future. As we stand here now, he is a far more electable candidate, she is a horrible choice. On ideological purity, you're just repeating bumper stickers. I focus on policies, actual policies, her record, the impact those policies have had. I know the damn issues and it is a joke for you to claim her supporters are the ones glued into issues. They almost never address her actual record, her corruption, her horrible polling, or have adult conversations on the record of Democrats like her, her husband, and Obama. It immediately turns personal.
As I said, not a single thoughtful comment in the thread from a Clinton supporter. Not one person interested in being an adult and answering the question, cause the truth is none of you will hold her feet to the fire. I sure as hell would if Sanders were elected, cause that is what is often needed. You challenge people when they sell out, or back policies that harm you or and the country. None of you say you will or act with any maturity. What you are saying is case of projection.
Zynx
(21,328 posts)If Sanders was elected, he'd be forced to do things you wouldn't like either. Find me a social democratic government that hasn't disappointed it's supporters. I dare you.
None of that is the point.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)What she does, oh, BTW, we don't throw everyone who does not support her under the bus.
Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)Oh, there's the TPP too. Oh, and everything else she says.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)firebrand80
(2,760 posts)Onlooker
(5,636 posts)... they defend his support for anything he does. He voted against the Amber Alert system, Sanders supporters explain why. He voted to grant gun manufacturers special liability privileges, Sanders supporters defend him. He voted for the anti-immigrant vigilante Minutemen, for the stealth bomber, for military appropriations for the Iraq and Afghanistan war in 2001, etc. Supporters tend to be fairly irrational when it comes to attacks on their candidate. Just the way it is.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Onlooker
(5,636 posts)Any progressive who supports Hillary acknowledges that Sanders is better on many issues, but that Hillary is pretty good (and there are important reasons to support her other than her specific stands). It's just when Sanders supporters try to paint her as a neocon, Republican, Wall Street shill, etc. it evokes a defensive response from those who support Hillary.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)candidate proposing them
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)1/3 - "it's the best we can do" - Example: Cuts/privatization of Medicare
1/3 - "that's really progressive" - Example: TTP
1/3 - "you wouldn't complain if a man did that" - Example: Hillary invades Iran
Skink
(10,122 posts)Who better. She is probably coordinating with Rand/Ryan now.
nolawarlock
(1,729 posts)You mean like all the progressives who discovered Bernie and suddenly became all pro-gun?
Skink
(10,122 posts)That Bernie?
... the Bernie who believes that gun laws should be decided by the states and that gun manufacturers should not be held liable for the the carnage their products create.
nolawarlock
(1,729 posts)... the Bernie that voted against the Brady Bill five times.
Skink
(10,122 posts)I whole heartedly disagree with HRC on lots of stuff.
I agree with her on the ACA. I also agree that Bernie should set the stage for Medicare for all. He's not going to tear down the ACA
So we Bernie supporters just know he'll fight for us.
nolawarlock
(1,729 posts)I'm the small business owner. We're the sacrificial lambs in Bernie's crusade to take a chunk out of corporations. Hillary understands our unique position in bringing unique products and services to our communities, the American Dream of entrepreneurship, and a path to independence for regular, everyday people. Hillary has an avatar specifically created for us, which I'm using here. Bernie could care less if he hurts us so long as he can get to the corporations. I won't support someone who sees my life as collateral damage.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)they aren't going to vote for a candidate that wants to improve the lives of those they consider undesirables.