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moriah

(8,311 posts)
Mon May 2, 2016, 04:30 PM May 2016

Blast from the past: DU's old rules!

https://web.archive.org/web/20110721225652/http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

For Civility (talking about and to members of Democratic Underground)


The administrators of Democratic Underground are working to provide a place where progressives can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Despite our best efforts, some of our members often stray from this ideal and cheapen the quality of discourse for everyone else. Unfortunately, it is simply impossible to write a comprehensive set of rules forbidding every type of antisocial behavior. The fact that the rules do not forbid a certain type of post does not automatically make an uncivil post appropriate, nor does it imply that the administrators approve of disrespectful behavior. Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster an atmosphere of thoughtful discussion. In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden.

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I can see why Skinner thought we should grow up some and not have to live by a ton of "thou shalt not"s.

Too bad we haven't....
30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Blast from the past: DU's old rules! (Original Post) moriah May 2016 OP
Wow. Almost none of those rules are followed now. onehandle May 2016 #1
Are there more or less people participating now than in 2008? Jackie Wilson Said May 2016 #3
Feels like far less, but there has been a bump for the last two months. onehandle May 2016 #5
If I owned this place there is NO way I would cut out all the people who might Jackie Wilson Said May 2016 #6
That's why Skinner created Discussionist. moriah May 2016 #15
Ahh yes, that place. GOP has invested in a several hundred million dollar propaganda campaign Jackie Wilson Said May 2016 #17
It's hard to remember it's bullshit.... moriah May 2016 #19
We don't have a nominee until concession.. moriah May 2016 #8
Feels like less to me wildeyed May 2016 #28
Far less now than in 2008. NanceGreggs May 2016 #9
Yeah, those rules are definitely old. nolawarlock May 2016 #2
Wow! (nt) stone space May 2016 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author carolinayellowdog May 2016 #7
Kinda freaky. +1 for Jung.... I heart Jung. Nt moriah May 2016 #10
And DU grew and thrived ... NanceGreggs May 2016 #11
There was concern about transparency, biased mods, etc, from what I recall. moriah May 2016 #12
Skinner also stated ... NanceGreggs May 2016 #20
This one against me didn't get a hide. moriah May 2016 #22
One of my first hides here ... NanceGreggs May 2016 #23
I hope you did alert on that alert. moriah May 2016 #26
No, I didn't alert. NanceGreggs May 2016 #27
Early on in the jury system, wildeyed May 2016 #29
Alerting. NuclearDem May 2016 #13
They will bake us honeybuns with the brainwashing juice in it? moriah May 2016 #14
This place is gross LoverOfLiberty May 2016 #16
*blush* moriah May 2016 #21
That was when DU was a unique place, now it's just like the other places, full of bullies of Bluenorthwest May 2016 #18
They also started a site full of Freepers and Cavers. demmiblue May 2016 #24
I always thought DI was an attempt to both get ad revenue.... moriah May 2016 #25
Early this primary season a community college "blogger" who could barely string a sentence together Warren DeMontague May 2016 #30

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
1. Wow. Almost none of those rules are followed now.
Mon May 2, 2016, 04:33 PM
May 2016

No wonder this place is such a ghost of its old self.

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
5. Feels like far less, but there has been a bump for the last two months.
Mon May 2, 2016, 04:40 PM
May 2016

Now that we have a nominee, I expect traffic will shrink back down.

Jackie Wilson Said

(4,176 posts)
6. If I owned this place there is NO way I would cut out all the people who might
Mon May 2, 2016, 04:42 PM
May 2016

not follow the TOS, I would figure out a way for them to stay for several reasons, including profit.

But I would make it impossible for someone who is not a Democratic party supporter to be able to silence someone who is.



moriah

(8,311 posts)
15. That's why Skinner created Discussionist.
Mon May 2, 2016, 05:08 PM
May 2016

The idea, I presume, was to get ad revenue from the trolls, and give them a place they might actually engage Democrats if that's really what their intentions were by trolling.

Leaving DU to us, Democrats, less disrupted, working together for liberty and justice for all by getting Democrats elected.

Jackie Wilson Said

(4,176 posts)
17. Ahh yes, that place. GOP has invested in a several hundred million dollar propaganda campaign
Mon May 2, 2016, 05:13 PM
May 2016

over the past 25 years to destroy the Clinton family.

On this site alone we see the fruits of this in 2 ways

1. actual GOP operatives frantically posting non stop Clinton attack threads

2. well meaning quasi liberals who buy into the lies and bullshit

moriah

(8,311 posts)
19. It's hard to remember it's bullshit....
Mon May 2, 2016, 05:37 PM
May 2016

... when the memes have gotten so imprinted, over more than two decades.

Hillary may be many things. She may be right of Bernie, she may overly identify with the movement that was called "Progressivism" in its time when both parties were very different than they are now (her hesitation on cannabis reminds me of Prohibitionist views, when temperance was considered to be a movement for the safety of women and children, for example).

But the belief she's a cold hearted snake with a desire for a coronation... that came from the GOP.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
8. We don't have a nominee until concession..
Mon May 2, 2016, 04:48 PM
May 2016

... even if Bernie's Sunday speech regarding superdelegates had the tone of Hillary's letter to the DNC delegates right before the last primaries -- essentially concession if the pledged delegates are larger after the primaries are complete and even under his idea of splitting Supers by the percentage of the win in each state he still can't get the nomination, but not conceding yet because there are people who still have to vote.

Even Obama only called himself the "presumptive Nominee" until Hillary officially conceded.

I, as a Hillary supporter, cannot criticize Sanders for the same strategies Hillary used in 08. And I have good reason to believe, particularly when he said that he would work to do whatever it took to not get a GOPer or Trump elected, that he will be graceful after the process is fully concluded.

wildeyed

(11,240 posts)
28. Feels like less to me
Mon May 2, 2016, 07:32 PM
May 2016

because I have a hefty number on ignore now. Never had more than a few before, but there were rules back then....

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
9. Far less now than in 2008.
Mon May 2, 2016, 04:48 PM
May 2016

Traffic has steadily declined since then. It tends to pick up during an election cycle, but has never come close to being what it was pre-2008.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
2. Yeah, those rules are definitely old.
Mon May 2, 2016, 04:37 PM
May 2016

It seems like we've adopted the rules of the Thunderdome these days.

Response to moriah (Original post)

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
11. And DU grew and thrived ...
Mon May 2, 2016, 04:52 PM
May 2016

... when those rules were enforced.

I'll never understand why the highly-successful model was tossed out the window, to be replaced with what DU is now - which has resulted in a loss of traffic and members as a result thereof.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
12. There was concern about transparency, biased mods, etc, from what I recall.
Mon May 2, 2016, 04:59 PM
May 2016

I hope that Skinner's plan to improve the Jury System includes at least a partial return to those guidelines --aka, give jurors more guidance, as he said, as to what was and wasn't acceptable on DU.

Truthfully, all of the above IS covered under the broad umbrella of "disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate"....

But it's such a broad umbrella, that many haven't felt like something was "rude enough" or "insensitive enough" to hide.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
20. Skinner also stated ...
Mon May 2, 2016, 05:38 PM
May 2016

... in an ATA response that "jurors are not expected to enforce the TOS". In other words, jurors are free to "judge" a post on whatever criteria they choose - and we've all seen how well that works.

If there was concern with any individual Mod, they could easily be replaced. What we have with juries is hundreds of random "Mods" who are not expected to follow any guidelines whatsoever.

We've all seen jury decisions. They often don't even state any reason for a vote to "hide" or "leave". In other instances, the reasons stated include specific references to who the alterted poster supports in this primary, and/or references to whether the juror "likes", "hates", or "agrees with" the poster in question.

When someone tells another DUer "I wouldn't fuck you with someone else's dog's cock" (and that was one of the milder personal insults included in that particular and lengthy post) and it's voted as a "leave", it seems blatantly obvious that the jury system is a big, fat FAIL. How could anyone not think something like that is "not rude enough" or "not insensitive enough" to warrant a hide?

Someone got a hide today for calling Bernie a "snake-oil salesman", while OPs about HRC laundering money, engaging in criminal activities, or OPs about Bill being a pedophile are left alone.

I know you want to defend Skinner here - and that's fine. But he is still responsible for allowing all of this to happen. He's had more than ample time to realize where the flaws in the jury system are, and the vile things that are allowed to be posted here as a result. He's also had plenty of time to set rules as to how jurors are meant to adjudicate alerts - and he has done nothing about it.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
22. This one against me didn't get a hide.
Mon May 2, 2016, 05:54 PM
May 2016
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1806926

I kinda went off a bit there in response to that accusation. The first line I didn't mind at all. The second.... ooooh.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
23. One of my first hides here ...
Mon May 2, 2016, 06:09 PM
May 2016

... started with Juror #1 stating: "I've always hated NanceGreggs, so I'm voting to hide without bothering to even read the post."

I've also seen decisions where jurors have said, "I love ______, and I will NEVER vote to hide anything they say, no matter what it is."

As I said, decisions have been rife with references to personal likes/dislikes, as well as references to who the altered-on poster is supporting in the primary.

The minute Skinner acknowledged that 85% of the posters here are BS supporters, he HAD TO KNOW that juries were not going to be "fair and balanced".

And his response was

DU once had a sterling reputation as a well-moderated site where civility prevailed. It is now the go-to site for saying the most vile, disgusting things imaginable without interference - as long as you're part of the majority, or pose as someone who is.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
26. I hope you did alert on that alert.
Mon May 2, 2016, 06:49 PM
May 2016

I also hope that Skinner really has, since March like he announced, starting stripping jurors of that right.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
27. No, I didn't alert.
Mon May 2, 2016, 07:24 PM
May 2016

I've seen waaaay too many "decisions" like that, and they are invariably left to stand. So why bother?

That "wouldn't fuck you with a dog's cock" post I mentioned earlier was alerted on multiple times, and I know of at least a dozen DUers who sent emails to Skinner about it. He left it alone. If he's not going to step-in when something that egregious is posted, he's obviously not interested in what gets posted here.

The thing is that if Skinner hadn't given "that right" to jurors in the first instance, he wouldn't have to strip them of that right now. Had he set out guidelines for jurors at the outset, and heeded alerts on outrageous posts left to stand, he wouldn't be in the fix he's in today.

He let this happen - and there's no excuse for it.

wildeyed

(11,240 posts)
29. Early on in the jury system,
Mon May 2, 2016, 07:46 PM
May 2016

there was an effort to adhere. But there was nothing posted about the guidelines, and I think there was some serious drift. I would get called to a jury and try to remember what the old rules were, because they were good and effective, but without any place to look them up, I could never remember, so I would just go with my gut.

Now I think about community standards. They are very low. Skinner goes on about how we should uphold standards and vote to hide uncivil posts, regardless of circumstance. But then poster A can tell poster B to fuck off, but if poster B says fuck off back, we are supposed to hide B, even if the first post DIDN'T get a hide. My inclination is just to let it stand because A was asking for it I am looking for some CONSISTENCY. It seems dramatically unfair to punish one, but not the other. Especially if the other started it.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
13. Alerting.
Mon May 2, 2016, 05:03 PM
May 2016

I also have an inkling suspicion that the Cooking and Baking group might be infested with Freeper trolls.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
14. They will bake us honeybuns with the brainwashing juice in it?
Mon May 2, 2016, 05:04 PM
May 2016

Uh-oh, better go start the witch hunt!

LoverOfLiberty

(1,438 posts)
16. This place is gross
Mon May 2, 2016, 05:11 PM
May 2016

Seriously, I used to come here to get pumped up. Now its just a trash talking, mud slinging hatefest directed at our own party.

But you, OP, have been one of the lone voices in a while that remains calm, conciliatory and rational.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
18. That was when DU was a unique place, now it's just like the other places, full of bullies of
Mon May 2, 2016, 05:25 PM
May 2016

malicious intention. Yahoo comments with donkey logos. It's been a slow fall, but a total one.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
25. I always thought DI was an attempt to both get ad revenue....
Mon May 2, 2016, 06:22 PM
May 2016

..... from dedicated trolls/disruptors, and take some pressure off of DU. If the truly persistent ones are helping boost the DU site (even just $10 on DU can make ads disappear for a year, FYI, which can't happen on DI to my knowledge) revenue and pay for a place for us, I'm not exactly upset.

I haven't served on MIRT since the creation of DI, so I don't know if it helped any.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
30. Early this primary season a community college "blogger" who could barely string a sentence together
Tue May 3, 2016, 11:26 PM
May 2016

signed up and -in her first 30 or so posts- proceeded to call me everything from a Troll to a Rand Paul groupie, and fancied herself some brilliant strategist who was able to "out" me as a stealth Republican , after my- what- over a decade here.

Pretty fucking clear violation of the rules, aside from being logically incoherent- and eventually MIRT did what it was supposed to and banned her.

But the worst part was the long-time DU members who were so enamored with the stupid fucking "team C versus team B" dynamic, that they blew off what we all should agree was out of bounds DU behavior.

That was disappointing, and it won't be forgotten by yours truly any time soon.

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