To my fellow Hillary supporters: this isn't the time to gloat.

[moriah]

Last edited Sun May 1, 2016, 03:14 PM - Edit history (3)

I have been lucky enough to see few posts actually doing so, but even a few are too many.

Because I was her supporter in 2008, and really did believe in her vision, I remember how disappointed I was when I had worked my heart out for a candidate who came so close, but didn't win. It didn't mean I approved of everything she did or said, but I was proud of her for being gracious in defeat once all votes had been counted. I was proud of her that, even in her letter to the Superdelegates asking them to consider her, she said no matter what that she would work to unite the Party.

The people who worked (and are still rightfully working) for Bernie, for his vision and message, are feeling the same things Hillary supporters felt after the math was just no longer sustainable for Hillary. Feeling disappointment, feeling helpless since despite all their work Bernie doesn't have a great shot at winning anymore, feeling voiceless particularly if they haven't been able to cast a vote yet, and feeling like the Party doesn't care about their issues.

The last thing they need to help overcome such feelings is for Hillary supporters to gloat, suggest their vision wasn't a good one (it was), suggest they were insincere, or suggest that just because they can't, just yet, bring themselves to vote for the likely Nominee that they are actually supporting the GOP's values.

For everyone, no matter what another person says or does to provoke us, it's our responsibility to choose our own reactions. There have been horrific attacks against Hillary that, in my opinion, remind me of what I expect to see on Free Republic or Redstate. But if posters like that drive you batty, we have the ignore feature. There's no need to take the low road.

Essentially, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. That's the best thing Hillary supporters can do right now -- be sympathetic and as a result, take the high road.

----

On edit, just to be clear, I admire the people who can engage those posting majorly OTT attacks against Hillary without resorting to personally attacking the user saying them. I try -- sometimes with humor, sometimes with facts. But there are some things that have been said that all I can do is alert, and some posters repeatedly saying them that made it better for my serenity to let them have their DU, and let me have mine.

But at some point probably before August (at the latest, Labor Day) this website generally goes into "GE Footing". Whoever our Nominee is, he or she will not be subjected to those attacks on DU then, unless Skinner changes a long-standing TOS provision. People making those attacks repeatedly will lose posting privileges.

Also, there is a difference between being happy for your candidate's win, and happy for another's loss. The only people I might gloat a little (edit: okay, a lot) at their loss have Rs beside their names.

[TDale313]

1. Thank you for this. n/t

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Thank you so much, my dear moriah...

You have put into words exactly how we're feeling. It's bad enough that Bernie probably won't get the nomination, but to endure the gloating just compounds the sorrow.

I can take losing. But gloating is like salt in that wound.

I cannot express my appreciation enough...

[moriah]

16. Thank YOU, my dear Peggy...

... you have always been a voice for civility on DU as well. I applaud you.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

21. ...

[Silver_Witch]

3. How very kind.....

You are a kind person. Thank you.

[Duckhunter935]

4. Great post

I do hope some read it

[moriah]

6. I hope so, too.

I admit there are harsh realities, and one is that until we get ranked choice voting at the Federal level, staying home isn't going to help Bernie's vision ever come to pass.

But that includes both in November, and in the primaries still left -- even if Bernie voters can't get him as their Nominee in May/June voting, going forward and voting will help demonstrate that Bernie's candidacy WAS important. Even if he isn't the one at the top of the ticket, he brought into focus many important issues.

And that is why I, for one, say Bernie's supporters should not be considered voiceless. I truly believe that their votes will help form our platform, help influence the 2nd person on the eventual ticket, and remind us all that the Democratic Party can't keep a drift to the right forever. Their voices matter very much.

[jillan]

5. Thanks Moriah. That means a lot.

[bigtree]

7. Sanders is still running a blistering campaign against Hillary

...not really feeling the love right now.

I remember well how it felt in 2008. Both candidates made it very easy to transition to the general election. It feels very different this election.

I will say that there's almost an expectation that supporters of Hillary who are every bit as enthusiastic about their choice as Bernie supporters should wear some kind of hair shirt as they look forward to the general election campaign against Trump. What you're experiencing right now is pride and confidence defiantly expressed in the face of an unrelenting campaign to defame, denigrate, and demoralize the Clinton camp by her rival.

When the Sanders campaign makes the shift, the defenses will almost certainly fade along with the attacks.

[moriah]

12. I've missed XM Radio's Pouts 08 channel...

... when not running regular programming, they often ran stump speeches from all the candidates. So I haven't heard his speeches, but the tone of the emsils from Jeff Weaver hss improved, in my opinion.

I understand that you don't want to wear a hair shirt -- I admit that some things said have made me so angry I had to go find something constructive to do with jt. I don't like seeing any woman, or particularly my candidate, called a whore.

I'm just saying... we can try to be more gracious than others have been to us. It helps karma, if nothing else...

[Cha]

23. Thank you, bigtree!

[stonecutter357]

77. +1000

[The Second Stone]

8. I think three-quarters of Sanders supporters will support the party

nominee. And that is a good start.

And I agree with what you said and the way you said it.

However, I do not agree that people who call Hillary Clinton corrupt, a liar, a criminal and a war monger (or a conservative) should get a pass. None of those things are true and there is no evidence to support that. I think those kind of lies should be called on the carpet immediately and fully. Those people are participating, willingly or unwitingly, in the swift-boating of the party nominee. Big propagandist lies need to be shut down with the truth.

[moriah]

10. Then alert...

Skinner answered some questions in ATA that indicated the failure to hide egregious attacks against either candidate was something he disapproved of.

But you can even condemn such attacks without crossing the line into attacking Bernie, or attacking the user. If they hit your hot buttons so badly you can't take that higher road, the better solution is to jgnore anyway (even if not with the feature) not just for the sake of civility, but because if you believe they are engaging in bad behavior attention only encourages more of the same.

[The Second Stone]

15. Attacking Sanders is something that I should not do

I don't agree with him on a lot of stuff (especially socialism), but he is clearly a decent and kind man. But mere alerts are not the smack downs that these lies have coming. We need to know the answers to these lies and practice them here before in public. They will be repeated.


Here is my reply to the lie that she is about to be indicted:


The Sanders supporters don't seem to understand (or want to understand) that the FBI investigates what it is told to, and doesn't have the power to indict anybody. The DOJ has the power to bring to a grand jury (in D.C. in this case) in a secret proceeding, the secrecy of which cannot be broken in any way by the government, but by an accused only, and to ask the grand jury (of 24 local citizens serving for a year) to follow the recommendation of the prosecutor (the US Attorney for D.C.) as to whether they believe they have enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty such that the accused should be put to a trial. There is no target person of this FBI investigation. Neither Hillary Clinton, nor any of her assistants. There is no evidence they sought to mishandle information, nor that any information fell into the wrong hands, nor that there was such intent, when intent is critical. Hillary Clinton asked that an adequate server be set up and relied on experts to do so. Perhaps one of those experts over-represented his/her qualifications, even so, it would be stretching it to call it fraud.

For Fox and some of Sanders irresponsible supporters (not all of them) to insist that this is criminal intent beyond a reasonable doubt that 24 citizens of DC would be led by the US Attorney to return an indictment on is, in the case of legal and political experts, a fraud on the public. No one with any expertise sincerely thinks this is going to happen, particularly in view of how the Benghazi committee had its ass seriously kicked by Hillary Clinton when she was under oath and not entitled to formally fight back on this issue. The non-expert might be forgiven for not knowing all these things and buying the propagandist lies because they haven't thought it through.

An indictment would require proving for 24 DC residents, by the US Attorney, that Hillary Clinton acted in bad faith in setting up a server similar to her predecessors for the same purpose and charging Colin Powell and Condi Rice too. This DOJ has preserved the long American tradition of not crapping all over public servants acting in good faith in doing their jobs. The only exceptions made have been people who deliberately compromised intelligence operations (Scooter Libby with the Plame affair) and whistleblowers who went to the press rather than through channels.

In short, people who think that Loretta Lynch is going to indict Hillary Clinton are completely out of their fucking stupid and ignorant minds because (1) the evidence isn't there; (2) we don't do that in this country (see the ancient Greeks for why not; (3) it is politically unlikely by the US Attorney and the DC residents.

If a lot of people ignore the facts and abuse their power (like Trey Gowdy and Fox News), it could happen in the same way that I could win the Powerball if I bought a ticket.

Now, if the Attorney General were a Republican, I could see it happening for political reasons. But she isn't.

Feel free to use parts you like and change them if necessary.

[moriah]

19. A simple change from "the Sanders supporters"...

... to either "Some Sanders supporters", "The Sanders supporters who take this seriously", or even "People who push this line of attack"...

Would improve that post's civility greatly.

And that's what I meant about discussing the issue without attacking Sanders or his supporters as a group. It may seem like tiptoing, but on the Internet, it's far easier to engage in broad-brush attacks without remembering that each user here is an individual.

[The Second Stone]

22. That's a good point and a way to improve my post

I've been doing the "some Sanders supporters" tack, but I lapse and did there. And it really is only "some", probably less than 25 percent according to data I'm seeing.

I've known about Hillary Clinton since 1989, when I found out about what she was doing as a legal pioneer for children's rights. I knew about her before Bill. And when I found out this guy from Arkansas who was the governor was willing to hire James Carville, I knew we finally had a Democrat willing to get muddy fighting. And a bonus was that he was the spouse of this wonderful lawyer.

Quarter century later, I must confess, I'm waiting until after the general election to gloat over the Republicans. They've spent three decades trying to destroy Hillary Clinton (and incidentally Bill) because they know at heart just how liberal she is. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to know that she will spend 4 to 8 years nominating judicial officers.

And it has been judicial officers who have moved our country forward with same sex marriage, and backwards with voter rights and money in politics. Nothing matters more than the hundreds of thousands of decisions judicial officers make. Obama made great picks. Hillary will make better ones, having practiced law longer (really Obama never practiced law except a little) and she knows the opposition and knows how to fight back and that it is necessary. The right wing is dreading her candidacy because they know that she will undermine the hatred they stand for and will fight like hell. I relish how they shake in their boots at the thought of her.

[Ghost Dog]

73. "fucking stupid and ignorant minds"

Quod erat demostrandum,

[SwampG8r]

41. Try being truthful

Powell anx rice had private email accounts not private servers

[Demsrule86]

48. That is way worse

They had no control over security. How could they be so irresponsible? Could be criminal...I think the DOJ should investigate.

[SwampG8r]

58. Me too everyone who has played fast and loose with national security

Needs a prison cell
Including hrc

[Demsrule86]

74. She did not do any such thing

I think the first person ...or first two...would be Bush and Cheney.

[SwampG8r]

79. The emails with blumenthal disprove your premise

They shared secret info he was specifically denied access to by potus.

[BootinUp]

94. So sayeth Gowdy, Faux News, misc RW hacks, and SwampG8r. Truthiness is clear!!!

[SwampG8r]

106. Do y ou believe she had no contact witb blumenthal?

Even she has given that one up.

[BootinUp]

107. Its reputable news sources and the pukes that have given it up. nt

[Demsrule86]

47. Great post

it makes total sense.

[Demsrule86]

51. There is a post

right now calling her a Republican. All they have are malicious lies.

[Vattel]

114. Well, she is quite clearly a liar and a warmonger.

There is plenty of evidence that she is very hawkish and that she has lied for political reasons on many occasions.

[The Second Stone]

116. No there isn't.

There is no evidence that she has ever lied for political reasons on any occasion. And people who think that, or that she is more hawkish than a most politicians are deluded liars.

[LuvLoogie]

9. This guy survived a jury way back in July of last year. The train is leaving.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=455232

[moriah]

11. They've PPRed now, though. Nt

[LuvLoogie]

13. The admins did that. The jury let him slide. It's been like that this whole past year--

one big anti-Hillary scatfest here on DU.

Not too concerned about about blowing sunshine up The Revolution's ass. The train is leaving. November waits for nobody.

[moriah]

14. I've never believed in "eye for an eye", though.

Maybe I am just too idealistic. But, at least for me, it's what I'm going to try to do.

[lovemydog]

18. That's not too idealistic.

It's also the best way to live. 'Be the change you want to be.' Someone dear to me once mentioned that and it's true.

[LuvLoogie]

20. I understand. And it's admirable. But you have to come to terms with

Last edited Sun May 1, 2016, 03:14 AM - Edit history (1)

the fact that leftist asocial nihilists are a thing, as are right-wing shit-stirrers. But whether this guy was one or the other, the jury was right with his sentiment--time and time again.

So until Bernie's supporters accept that more real Democrats voted for, support, and like Hillary Clinton than did for/do Bernie--and treat HER and HER supporters with a modicum of comity--then they can weep with their First Loser tickets and get on the train or wait for the next one.

I LIKE Bernie--as a Senator. Let's see if he remains a Democrat. I doubt it, though.

I'm not gloating. I'm voting.

[moriah]

24. ... and not helping.

I have a weird ethical code -- "An harm ye none, do what ye will."

But as the lady I took my signature line from said in her exegesis of it, it's not simple. Inaction is also action. One must carefully weigh their decisions and really choose, each time, which path will lead to the least harm.

I truthfully believe that attempts to not be sore winners and avoid broad-brush attacks against Sanders supporters is the path to least harm. But my decisions are my own. I just said my opinion.

[LuvLoogie]

26. I agree with you. I know my comments are likely not helpful.

But I don't think I am directing them at anyone but recalcitrant, anti-Hillary folk. Let me tell you what I mean. My sister is pro-Bernie, but she has defended Hillary against the bullshit memes and crap spewed at her. I have a 20 something year old cousin who called Hillary the C word. He's pro Bernie,too.

I feel bad for my sister--heart broken for her.

But I "drink my cousin's tears" every time I can.

[moriah]

30. You may not intend the posts at other audiences...

.... but the people still identifying so strongly with Bernie and his message are feeling like any statement beginning with "Sandrs supporters" reflects them, and are going to take it as directed at them.

And it's going to take time before people can separate the two. Remember, sympathy. Sensitivity. It isn't fun being where they are now. That's all I'm asking for.

Take care of yourself.

[LuvLoogie]

32. I will remember your suggestion--and I agree, but my first comments in this subthread

pretty clearly deliniated to whom I was refering. And I see one of my comments was alerted upon. That's fine. This is GD: P, and this is The Democratic Underground.

[artislife]

25. Thank you for this

I now have another addition to my vile file. This is what I am going to read when I get my mail in ballot for the GE. This should help me if I am feeling a bit of unity coming on.

smh

[LuvLoogie]

28. *chortle*

[Tarheel_Dem]

29. You won the jury.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Sat Apr 30, 2016, 11:06 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I understand. And it's admirable. But you have to come to terms with
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1874209

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

In a thread encouraging unity and not gloating, this user js continuing to do the opposite and making unhelpful, broad-brush sttacks against Sanders supporters. Completely insensitive and rude if nothing else.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Apr 30, 2016, 11:15 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: That is uncalled for. We all support our candidates but that is rude from any supporter. Vote to hide it!
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see nothing hideworthy in the poster's response.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: The alerter was right, why gloat in a unity thread.

[LuvLoogie]

34. I win some; I lose some.

[Number23]

117. How was ANY of that post hideworthy??!

Such delicate flowers here! So very, very delicate...

[Tarheel_Dem]

118. It wasn't. Should have been 0-7, AFAIC.

[Bobbie Jo]

83. "It's been like that this whole past year"

Yes, and toward anyone who would dare to support her here. So folks wonder what's up with the pushback?

No, this has been a long time in the making.

[LuvLoogie]

89. Yeah. I get what Moriah is saying, but many here should not be surprised at the pushback.

There's a seat on the train for them--but they demand a wake up call, breakfast in bed and a ride to the station. Oh, and please get their bags checked.

[lovemydog]

17. K & R!

Our country will vastly improve when millions of people who have been positively affected by Bernie Sanders and his campaign get involved and stay involved. They are the best hope for our present and future. I hope everyone, including and especially those who didn't support him, acknowledge the great contributions he's made to our ongoing dialogue and actions. Poverty and wealth inequality are glaring problems and present unique challenges. We must get real and start taxing the ultra rich far more, and lower our military spending. We can all do our part to help expand freedoms so that every person can live up to their fullest potential.

[Democratic Divo]

27. You are a class act.

Truly.

[ucrdem]

31. Thank you, I agree,

but I think what many here are explaining is that if Clinton supporters collectively said "Okay, primary war is over, I'm staying out of GDP," GDP or whatever succeeds it would quickly devolve into wall-to-wall anti-Hillary propaganda without any regard to probability, consistency, credibility of the source, damage to the candidate, or anything else. "Hillary pays trolls to post porn on Facebook" for example gets a lot of traction here, as does "David Brock is on Hillary's payroll." And so on. Doesn't matter how many times a lie has been swatted down, it will need to be swatted down again tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow . . .

[moriah]

37. Maybe I should clarify what I meant by "batty"...

Which was being so pissed off and offended by what was said that absolutely nothing civil was going to be able to come out of your fingers right then, or stuff so awful that it's raising your blood pressure/anxiety more than any forum should to see them or attempt to rationally and civilly engage. Some attacks have driven me to that point.

For those who are better able to use snark and logic instead of, at that time, only wanting to tell someone to go DIAF... by all means, please, fight the smears. But it's no fault of your own if you, too, get passionate. Just what you do with that passion matters

Often times when I saw something that rubbed me that way, I took a break, cleaned something filthy to channel my anger, then made 10 calls for Hillary once I was back in emotional control.

[ucrdem]

119. Good advice

Some here seem to have a single calling in life and that is spreading FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) about elected Democrats and contenders. They can wax eloquent 24/7 about Hillary's failings, or the lack of same in their latest Independent / Libertarian / apolitical hero, but when it's time to get behind a Democrat, they have a sick headache. Strange.

Anyway you are definitely doing the right thing!

[eastwestdem]

33. Great post. I hope people on both side try to be more civil. nt

[PowerToThePeople]

35. I say, let people do what they will

I thank you for this post though.

If they want to gloat they can, pledged delegates are still not out of reach for Bernie. I am in until the convention and hopefully beyond.

I would rather have people be honest in their dealings, be it good or bad. At least you then know where they stand and what they stand for.

DU is not easy for the thin skinned.

[Demsrule86]

52. I object

to Bernie people posting stuff from right wing sites.

[highprincipleswork]

36. Frankly, if you really want to win the long game, it is never time to gloat. Especially this game.

If you want to win, the goal would be to be inclusive. The more the merrier. The merrier the merrier.

[Betty Karlson]

38. Don't worry, I won't vote Republican:

I'll never vote again for the status quo and the establisment - never.

[Katashi_itto]

45. Same here. Those days are over.

[Betty Karlson]

67. ...

[seekthetruth]

39. In the end, we all have a right to our beliefs and opinions.

Even if we disagree vehemently on things, anything that I have said is for debate only. Peace to everyone. It's when our rights to voice our beliefs and thoughts our democracy is threatened.

[Xyzse]

40. That is an important point to make, and thank you for doing it.

I tend to give a lot of leeway towards supporters, as I know they can be emotional and take things deeply and personal.

Campaign operatives, and the candidates themselves however, I will excoriate them for bad behavior.

I have also noticed, that when I do respond, my responses tend to be a bit more loquacious and I do try to be fair. Sadly, that also means I don't get much responses, though that is also a function of the lateness of my replies.

In 2008, I supported her before Obama, as I considered him untrustworthy, an unknown, and I particularly did not like his voting record which was voting "Present" rather than "Yay or Nay" in regards to complicated and sensational issues. It pretty much gave me the impression that he doesn't take a stand when negotiating, and as such will be weak. I also did not think that him going after her for the Iraq War vote was right, as the house and senate at that point was given misleading, incomplete and doctored information and John Kerry had the same position, and I admire John Kerry. Regardless, Iraq and the Middle East was one of the least important issues to me, as I generally think(and still do) that whatever action the US will take would be based on the situation on the ground, and all of the candidates would act in a very similar way. The only thing that I was concerned about, was if they were Hawkish and wish to expand on the war or not. I did not realize how Hawkish Clinton is, and I didn't realize how Obama is so willing to use the Drone program which really is unsustainable and only engenders us more enemies.

Another reason I supported her in 2008 was that she had the better contacts to be able to fill her cabinet quickly, which Obama did not have, and as such kept many of the Republican appointees in place, which sought to undermine him.

Needless to say, they were BOTH my last choice in 2008 for the Democrats. Due to that, Unaffiliated that I was, I gave everyone a fair and honest assessment. I will be doing that again come November by the way. I will give everyone a fair assessment, no matter which party(though I will never vote 3rd party). I have been voting straight Democrat lately(other than a few Independents on local races), as I consider the Republicans have lost it, and I do not want to give them any sort of legitimacy by winning the Presidency. You are right however... It is getting harder and harder to say that I will vote for her if she becomes the nominee.

In any case, let me quote one of my recent posts:

when a poster once asked, what does Clinton have to do to earn my vote. Honestly, if she's the Democratic candidate, I will vote for her. How she gets my support, I suggest she start with "consistency" and figure out her actual bottom line. A set of principles that would guide her in her decision making process(not just what she thinks would get her the most plaudits). The fact that I find her camp saying that she has been "forced to the left" shows that she needs to work on her integrity, and that is just plain sad. It is also why many feel that she does not support the issues that matter to them, since they think she will abandon it at the drop of a hat.

So just please keep that in mind, since there is a huge distrust towards Clinton.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. Your intentions are noble but I can not be as magnanimous.

If you disrespect me or someone I like I will disrespect you or someone you like.

[B Calm]

43. What a smug attitude you have pretending that Hillary has already won the nomination.

[Demsrule86]

46. She has won the nomination

But please do stay in until California...so down ballot races are not harmed by an excess of Republican voters. California has a weird system where all candidates for say a senate election are on the ballot top two winners go to the election...could be two Dems or Greens ...could be a dem and a green...or horrors two GOP types.

[B Calm]

49. and your smugness continues. .

[Demsrule86]

53. I was being factual not smug

Many Bernie people admit it is over. I have looked at the math.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. I am voting for Hillary and Kamala.

[Demsrule86]

61. I am voting for Hillary and I sure wish I could vote for Kamala Harris

Do you think Kamala will win? she is great. I live in Ohio. I love your posts by the way. I read them all.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. Thank you.

Kamala Harris should win easily. I have no animus toward Loretta Sanchez and would be happy with her as my senator but she has ran a poor race. That is how I see most intramural party battles.

[Demsrule86]

71. Good luck!

Take it home for the Dems! I do worry with all the Trump voters who probably don't bother to vote in different years.

[Demsrule86]

59. And see that is the problem

if you praise Secretary Clinton or say she has won...what have you...Bernie supporters call you names (smug). You cry about incivility while practising it constantly. Bernie will not be the nominee no matter how many Clinton supporters you insult.

[B Calm]

64. Maybe you need to read what the op is about!

[Demsrule86]

70. I read it and approve

However. that does not change the fact that the most innocuous comments by Hillary supporters are viewed as gloating or insulting. I will speak my mind politely. I have no control over how overly sensitive Bernie people view my comments.

[moriah]

96. Case in point -- my OP was called "smug".

Oh well.

I tried.

[JudyM]

112. It would be a good post except for 2 important factors: it is premature and this is a very different

primary than was 2008, based on principles.

While some of us may appreciate your intention,your post still carries a message that dishonors the possibility, however slim, that Bernie could still pull this off. Which may not seem smug to you, but is, a bit.

Second, Obama, the leading candidate at this point in the race, that you yielded to, did not have a history as disturbingly corporatist and warmongering as does Clinton. So please understand that this is very, very different for us. It is not about just shrugging our shoulders and playing nice for the winning dem candidate. It is every inch about something far deeper.

[moriah]

115. The delegate math looked bad for Hillary far earlier.

It was a tigher race, but because the primaries have been further apart this year, I agree, timing isn't comparable between the two elections.

But we could see even before the decisive NC primary that it wasn't looking good. It wasn't looking good, really, by the middle of March.

This time, it's just that to get a majority of pledged delegates, Bernie's got to win a lot. Not just tie, but decicively win, to get what he would by tying plus nearly 300 pledged delegates more. With just over 1000 remaining delegates, that means he's got to get over 700 of those 1016, per DemRace. The 2008 election, by comparison, was much closer at 3/4 of pledged delegates voted.

I tried to say clearly it wasn't over, just that... it looks bad right now. But with huge states yet to vote, it's a better reason not to be nasty to Bernie supporters.

[bkkyosemite]

81. The harming comes from the Media and from even Hillary supporters here you keep saying

it's over he's done put a fork in him (Sid I really thought that trash talk), or the old guy is done etc. I am in Oregon! I am a Californian! We have not voted yet! These comments are discouraging to the voter in these states that have not voted yet. The system is rigged, the system is a travesty. We don't get our say because everyone decides for us. This is just controlling the masses and not allowing one person one vote.

[pinebox]

85. Hillary has won the nomination? Where is her acceptance speech?

*crickets*

[AgingAmerican]

86. She doesn't have enough delegates

But that doesn't stop them from gloating...

[pinebox]

87. Yup, it's comical. Wishful thinking it's called

[moriah]

95. If you feel I was smug, you too have the option of an alert or ignore button.

I pointed out we still have primaries. I pointed out that Bernie hasn't stopped working. I pointed out, inherently, by saying he didn't have a great shot, that he still has some shot.

If that offends, you too have ways to refrain from saying anything at all if you can't put it nicely either.

[Demsrule86]

44. Well if we say anything much

Our post gets hidden.

[wyldwolf]

50. It's difficult not to gloat...

Months of Bernie followers alert stalking, playing the martyr card, bullying (especially minority DUers), using right wing memes and sources, etc. etc. And it still goes on this morning.

The worst ones were the newbies, storming in thinking they know jack.

No, won't gloat now. But when Hilary completely nails it down and the shit I mentioned above is still going on, I will gloat.

[Demsrule86]

62. Personally

I love to gloat! I admit it. I have restrained myself...as half of the pro-Hillary posts get trashed (for no reason in my opinion) but I am gloating on the inside. Surely after the primary is called, the Bernie folks will not be allowed to trash Hillary and post right wing sources?

[wyldwolf]

68. That remains to be seen

"Surely after the primary is called, the Bernie folks will not be allowed to trash Hillary and post right wing sources?"

That remains to be seen. That has always been DU's rules and I've seen every indication it will be again since we've already seen some of the particularly vile Bernie followers banned.

On the other hand, posting right wing memes from right wing sources used to be frowned on here, too, but the policy against such things hasn't been enforced.

Of course, it's all fun and games on the internet. These types wouldn't survive a visit to the local Democratic party spouting the absurdities they do online. Which highlights the fundamental issue: They're naive of the actual historical history of the Democratic party as an organization whose purpose is to elect Democrats.

As for their silly hostage-taking "Bernie followers won't vote for Hillary" routine. Fuck 'em. Most will, and the ones that don't remind me of several speeches from Harry Truman.

1. During his address to the ADA in '52, he called 'progressives' crackpots.
2. During his victory speech in '48, he said, "The greatest achievement was winning without the radicals in the party. I was happy to be elected by a Democratic party that did not depend upon the left-wing."

[Demsrule86]

69. Thanks

Here in Ohio we are moving in to GE mode...have first meeting coming up...door to door canvassing will start in right after California...as well as calling.

[wyldwolf]

72. Excellent

Been on a 5 year sabbatical from such activities because my wife works odd schedules and my daughter has been too young to tag along. She's 10 now and I'm looking forward to dragging her out with me as I get re-involved. She's ready. You should hear what she says about Trump. Even her teacher mentioned it to me, LOL.

[Uponthegears]

103. It's interesting

That you consider Harry Truman as someone we should emulate.

[wyldwolf]

104. Depends on who you ask

Many progressive types here think the sun rises and sets on him.

Not really the point though. He is just one example of how the history of the Democratic Party often conflicts with what progressives think it is and was.

[Uponthegears]

105. Truth

spoken there all right.

On the other hand, FDR's method of appropriating socialism, rather than denigrating it, was both a social and a political success (and at the same time diverted an impending and likely violent workers' revolution) while the splitting of the left and right practiced by Truman and others, has left every single important social advancement not even half done after 70 odd years of incremental change.

[wyldwolf]

108. Still the left is responsible for much of that

even though what you said about FDR is undeniably true the left still viciously attacked him for not doing what they felt was enough.

Eleanor wrote this in a letter to the DNC in response to it:

"The ups and downs in peoples’ feelings, particularly on the liberal side, are an old, old story. The liberals always get discouraged when they do not see the measures they are interested in go through immediately. Considering the time we have had to work in the past for almost every slight improvement, I should think they might get over with it, but they never do."

The left ran a third-party candidate in the form of Henry Wallace, leading Truman to call progressives 'crackpots.'

[Uponthegears]

110. No doubt

There is a segment of the left which is truly (and even violently) revolutionary. Bernie, who is merely liberal, would not satisfy them any more than did FDR (a fact to which I can personally attest, being part of that segment until relatively late in my life).

That, however, doesn't change the failure of incrementalism to deliver fundamental change despite having over a half century to do so. Here's one tiny example, hopefully a non-controversial one. The VRA has been around for more than 50 years. At the time it was passed, southern states were using poll taxes, literacy requirements etc. to TRY to stop people like my parents from voting. They were gerrymandering congressional districts to dilute our voting power and keep people who looked like us out of political office. After the Act, we, with considerable effort, were able to strike the most onerous obstacles. Where are we now, though?

Using facially neutral voter ID provisions, states (far more states than had poll taxes) have disenfranchised the same voters they did before and no court will stop them. What's more, because too many people want to focus on "how far we have come" instead of how little we have come, the Supreme Court was able pass off the myth of a post-racial electoral world and basically guarantee that the statutes will stand. I won't even talk about how they redid districts to create token representation with no real power for change.

What's more, all of this happened despite a Herculean effort by our President to stop it.

We have to do more.

[sufrommich]

55. Nothing said on DU is going to make a bit

of difference in the real world election. Some take this place way too seriously,as if it were some kind of political powerhouse.

[SHRED]

76. I know right?

The importance placed on this tiny sliver of voters is comical at times.

I say let it fly...it doesn't matter.


p.s...I've been guilty at times of placing too much importance also.

[NNadir]

56. You are right, and I am wrong.

I have been gloating, but it's been hard to resist.

My own son is more than a little annoyed by my attitude.

Some very vicious things have been said about Ms. Clinton here, but again, you are right, and I am wrong.

Thanks, it's a pleasure to recommend your post.

By the way, I was an Obama supporter in 2008; I'm going to miss him.

[rock]

57. Can't I at least sign my posts

to them with "Neener, neener?"

[Bluenorthwest]

60. Experienced winners will tell you it is never the time to gloat. Gloating is in fact for losers

and very often precipitates a loss, wise people understand that. I've mentioned to a couple of posters that several States are still in process of voting, including CA which is very large. Not only do both Presidential candidates need energetic turnouts to come, so do the down ticket Democrats.
I hear from Hillary supporters that she's very good for the 'coat tails' but that's sure not the case here or in CA if her campaign sends the message 'it's done and done, no need to show up'.
There is always time for a modest victory toast among friends after the victory is won. It's really best to do it then because a few toasts before a big race can alter the outcome.....

[Karma13612]

65. Moriah, thanks for this thread.

I agree that it has gotten a bit tense here at DU!

I appreciate you trying to knit things together.

As a Bernie supporter, I don't agree with your candidate's platform, but I respect that you believe in your candidate as I do mine.

Bernie seems to speak directly to me on so many issues including ones that will not even effect me (I am 62, white, female, college educated, but making not quite $50K per year). So many out here are hurting and they believe Sanders can help them, feeling safe that he will make every attempt to blunt the corporate wave across America. I need SS and medicare, but I also want to see the climate cleaned up, and less money spent on military and prisons. I want our young people to have a chance to live in a clean, healthy environment with a vibrant middle class, and an economy that reflects that.

One thing that would show that Clinton supporters respect Bernie supporters would be to refer to them as supporters instead of "fans" which I read sometimes. It tends to degrade the supporter into some mindless teenage groupie who follows their favorite actor or musician around since they have nothing better to do.

Bernie supporters are a passionate bunch and we do want to see this Primary season thru to the proper conclusion.

I have come to believe in life that sometimes we don't know what action we are going to take until we are at the moment where the action is required. Yes, some Sanders supporters have said they will vote for the Dem nominee. In the heat of passion right now, some are not ready, but will vote Clinton if needed. Still others are steadfast in their resolve to fight corporate greed and will take one of the remaining actions (Green party, write in, stay home).

Thanks again, from a Bernie Sanders Supporter

[Logical]

66. They are getting worse, not better. They have a lot of anger. Nt

[NurseJackie]

75. As soon as Bernie utters the words "concede" or "withdraw" or "suspend" this will be over. Or ...

... the phrase "I endorse Hillary Clinton", or whenever Skinner calls-it. That's when I'll stop gloating and needling. Not sooner.

[stonecutter357]

78. " this posts has been hidden by a DU Jury"

[OhZone]

80. Schadenfreude and Karma !

I direct those only to the most evil people and the ones that should have known better.

Like TYT. Yeah, my friends and I are directing our gloating at some internet media types, like TYT, who used to more interested in facts and busting propaganda, but have become tools for GOP and creators of propaganda. They've actually been quoting Fox News analysts lately. Amazing.

Most Bernie supporters are honestly good people, whose ultimate goals I agree with. But some are not. Some are GOP and some are willfully ignorant.

Oh well.

[Patiod]

84. Not gloating, just returning

Long time DU member here, this board got me through the Bush administration ( This and BartCop). Haven't been around much recently because of the level of incivility and vitriol on her towards Hillary supporters. Looking forward to checking in again and maybe sticking my toe back in the water after California and after the Bernie diehards have a chance to mourn. I miss DU, but I get beat up enough by The Opposition elsewhere, and look forward to this being a safe haven again.

[bettyellen]

100. people forget there are dozens and dozens of Hillary supporters who could not be bothered with this

GDP shit, and are awaiting a more civil atmosphere.

[aikoaiko]

88. Thank you, but I don't think HRC losing in 2008 is comparable to Bernie.

I do thank you for your honest attempt at empathy, but we are not going thought the same things.

[moriah]

101. How about Dean supporters in 2004, then?

There were also Edwards supporters who went through even worse disappointment.

I addressed this to Hillary supporters, and spoke from my own experience of disappointment as her supporter then, because I hoped to remind anyone still left from that time how much posts (quickly removed by mods) saying "Ding dong, the Witch Conceded" hurt even those Hillary supporters clearly determined to support Obama.

[aikoaiko]

109. I know you're trying to be kind, and I appreciate that.

Howard Dean promised he would not quit, but did so by February.

John Edwards promised he would not quit, but did so by late January or early February.

In hindsight we see that both of these mean were supremely full of shit. Dean is a lobbyist for the medical industry and a shill. John Edwards can't be trusted to be alone with another woman even while his very decent wife was dying of cancer. He had another man claim paternity to hide his involvement. And now he's retreated to his multi-million dollar compound where the average joe hasn't heard from him since.

To answer your question, I do not identify with Dean or Edwards supporters.

All supporters of losing candidates have disappointment in common -- I will grant you that.

[seabeyond]

90. This was a lovely and admirable post. It is how it should be, not how it is going to be.

I was an Obama supporter in 2008. It was very very easy for me to be able to have this attitude. An attitude I feel is very important. But then, Clinton made it easy for me to have this attitude. Sanders has made it impossible, to this day, even after losing.

The problem in this campaign is the ugliness of attacked, the dishonesty in attacks 24 hours, day in and day out. It wouldn't matter much if these constant biased, fabricated attacks wasn't affecting people not in the know, processing the information. They have to be challenged, and called out. It simply has to be.

Much of the criticism and attacks at Clinton are two decades of exactly that. Biased and fabricated accusations. They become a truth.

Also, those on Du have used their strength in people to vote hides and kick off Clinton supporters to silence them. Months off DU because they had the power.

The perspective you have is absolutely the honored journey.

The reality, in Real life I can easily walk it, there is not a chance in hell I will do it on DU. I do not think most of the people I harshly address are either Democrats or would in any way, any time, vote for Clinton as it is.

I cannot tell you how many times I have had a Sanders supporter tell me, I like to kill women and children.

Not gonna happen. But I did want to cheer your post. I respect it that much.

[99Forever]

91. Too little, too late.

That bridge was crossed and burned months ago.

I appreciate the your effort, but you are very much in the minority of Clinton supporters. Most have told me repeatedly that not only, do they not need our support, but that they don't want it. I accept that request from them. I will support and vote as my conscience insists.

[ljm2002]

92. While I applaud your sentiment...

...I'm afraid it is far too late, the gloaters have been gloating for months now, and now that they think Hillary has the nomination nailed down, they have upped (or downed, depending on one's perspective) their game on DU.

It will of course backfire, as it cannot produce enthusiastic support for their candidate in the GE from those of us who are Bernie supporters.

And BTW, I do acknowledge plenty of nasty vituperative posts from Bernie supporters as well. The only reason there has been no gloating as such, is that we were never in the lead. I have been highly critical of Clinton, but I do avoid the nasty rightwing stuff. No need for it, there are substantive policy differences, and plenty of public comments to draw on, without delving into the trough of the VRWC (which is a real thing).

Again, and sincerely, I applaud your post.

[realmirage]

93. The gloating is in response

to all the unhinged, fabricated attacks on Hillary. When those stop, the gloating will stop.

[moriah]

99. That's why I spoke of provocation and personal responsibility.

"S/he started it!" is not a good reason even in grade school for one's own bad behavior.

[realmirage]

113. Not saying I condone it

I just think it's why ppl gloat here. Pushback from all the nastiness

[Beacool]

97. No gloating, but it's become very hard to bite one's tongue.

I have seen here for many months now the same level of RW attacks against Hillary that I can see on any RW site. That to me is unconscionable on a Democratic board.

The further the nomination becomes for Sanders, the more vicious some of his supporters have become. I'm obviously referring to a few supporters, not everyone here.

Grieving and disappointment are valid emotions. Goodness knows that I was heartbroken in 2008 when Hillary did not become the nominee, but full blown RW attack are unacceptable. Therefore, her supporters can't be blamed for returning fire.

Civility and common courtesy should be a two way street.

[moriah]

98. It IS difficult. I'm not denying that.

There'd been a poster doing that I had to put on Ignore, because the posts were not only so OTT and not hidden, but they infuriated me.

If you can return fire by attacking the message instead of the person, go for it. But when you can't... scrubbing a filthy bathtub, then making calls for Hillary after your temper is better is more constructive.

[guillaumeb]

102. Very well put. Argue the issues, not the candidate. eom

[Warren DeMontague]

111. Well said.

We could use more of this kind of attitude, from both sides, around here.